While it's not easy to compare FFPs, here's a rough comparison of earn & burn, status and CC earnings of the two FFPs that are most wide spread in Finland. I took a couple of "typical routes", for SK via CPH
EARN/BURN
EARN (one way)
AY C AY Y AY low eco SK C SK Y SK eco
HEL-CPH 3000 1500 375-750 1200 900 150-600
HEL-LHR 3652 1826 456-913 2800 2100 350-1400
HEL-NYC 13220 6610 1652-3305 9000 6750 1125-4500
HEL-NRT 16924 8462 2115-4231 12600 9750 1575-6300
AY - 1,25x for C, 1,5x for F vs SK - 2x for C and F
BURN (return)
AY C AY Y u/g oneway SK C SK Y SK eco u/g oneway
HEL-CPH 38000 24000 7500 20000 16000 12000 10000
HEL-LHR 63000 44000 10000 60000 50000 40000 10000
HEL-NYC 198000 124000 45000 90000 75000 60000 35000
HEL-NRT 223000 148000 55000 130000 105000 80000 50000
One-way redemption at 60% for both
No YQ for SK redemptions
under-17 "junior" redemption at 50% for AY
STATUS
AY Silver - 40k OR 24 segments on OW carriers
AY Gold - 90k OR 50 segments on OW carriers
AY Plat - 150k OR 90 segments on OW carriers
(there used to be a requirement of a minimum of 4 segments on own metal, can't find this anymore)
SK Silver - 20k OR 20 segments on EB integrated carriers
SK Gold - 55k OR 35 segments on EB integrated carriers (only 45k if you have a European address/POB)
AX: about 800 (AX Gold earns 2:1 for gas and groceries, 1:1 for everthing else)
Various sign up bonuses
vulle
Dec 29, 11, 5:35 am
While it's not easy to compare FFPs, here's a rough comparison of earn & burn, status and CC earnings of the two FFPs that are most wide spread in Finland. I took a couple of "typical routes", for SK via CPH
Great work WilcoRoger, this will certainly be useful for many. ^
SPBanker
Dec 29, 11, 5:44 am
Great work WilcoRoger, this will certainly be useful for many. ^
My sentiments exactly. Thank you, WR!
Small quibble: Shouldn't AY elite level multipliers be
Silver 1.10x Gold 1.15x Plat 1.25x?
WilcoRoger
Dec 29, 11, 10:45 am
My sentiments exactly. Thank you, WR!
Small quibble: Shouldn't AY elite level multipliers be
Silver 1.10x Gold 1.15x Plat 1.25x?
That's correct, I've updated the original post
WilcoRoger
Dec 29, 11, 10:55 am
While everyone can make his/her own calculations, a quick and dirty approach says that to reach a reward ticket on the same route one needs
on AY 13 HEL-NRT C one ways vs 10 on SK
on AY 15 HEL-NYC C one ways vs 10 on SK
on AY 17 HEL-LHR C one ways vs 22 on SK
on AY 13 HEL-CPH C one ways vs 17 on SK
This doesn't take into account any elite multipliers, so the real numbers are probably smaller.
From here on it gets much too complicated to draw general conclusions, there are just too many different combinations (earning/burning routes, CoS, etc)
Does SK EB elite multiplier count towards tier miles too, as AY's does?
And thanks for the interesting post!
intuition
Dec 31, 11, 1:52 am
BTW is there a Y ticket at all on SK and is it the same thing as an AY Y?
If I try book a HEL-NRT in economy flexible, the most expensive econ ticket there is, it books into W and earns 1575 miles. A economy extra flexible and economy extra full flex (usually called Y+) books into B and S and both earns 9600 miles
I can't find any econ ticket that earns 9750 on SK-flights HEL-NRT, so I am wondering a little about that earn table...
WilcoRoger
Dec 31, 11, 3:22 am
BTW is there a Y ticket at all on SK and is it the same thing as an AY Y?
If I try book a HEL-NRT in economy flexible, the most expensive econ ticket there is, it books into W and earns 1575 miles. A economy extra flexible and economy extra full flex (usually called Y+) books into B and S and both earns 9600 miles
I can't find any econ ticket that earns 9750 on SK-flights HEL-NRT, so I am wondering a little about that earn table...
Does SK EB elite multiplier count towards tier miles too, as AY's does?
And thanks for the interesting post!
My pleasure :)
And yes, SK elite multiplier counts towards status ("basic points")
intuition
Dec 31, 11, 2:08 pm
Y on SK books into Eco Extra
Aha, OK. That service class does not exist on AY, so one needs to be a little careful comparing the earnings in econ. AY econ is a strict Y-class seat with 32" pitch and 2-4-2 seating. SK econ extra is a Y+ with 38" pitch and 2-3-2 seating.
(Both companies have many econ tix in the 25-50% earnings, so equally unhappy there )
WilcoRoger
May 9, 12, 2:44 pm
After this months changes to the SK EB program I updated the SK earn/burn figures.
EARN/BURN
EARN (one way)
AY C AY Y AY low eco SK C SK Y SK eco
HEL-CPH 3 000 1 500 375-750 1 000 940 500
HEL-LHR 3 652 1 826 456-913 3 000 2 440 1 500
HEL-NYC 13 220 6 610 1652-3305 8 800 6 790 4 400
HEL-NRT 16 924 8 462 2115-4231 12 400 9 490 6 200
AY - 1,25x for C, 1,5x for F vs SK - 2x for C and F
BURN (return)
AY C AY Y u/g oneway SK C SK Y SK eco u/g oneway
HEL-CPH 38 000 24 000 7 500 30 000 25 000 20 000 10 000
HEL-LHR 63 000 44 000 10 000 50 000 40 000 30 000 10 000
HEL-NYC 198 000 124 000 45 000 100 000 80 000 60 000 35 000
HEL-NRT 223 000 148 000 55 000 140 000 110 000 80 000 50 000
One-way redemption at 60% for both
No YQ for SK redemptions
under-17 "junior" redemption at 50% for AY
STATUS
AY Silver - 40k OR 24 segments on OW carriers
AY Gold - 90k OR 50 segments on OW carriers
AY Plat - 150k OR 90 segments on OW carriers
(there used to be a requirement of a minimum of 4 segments on own metal, can't find this anymore)
SK Silver - 20k OR 20 segments on EB integrated carriers
SK Gold - 55k OR 35 segments on EB integrated carriers (only 45k if you have a European address/POB)
AX: about 800 (AX Gold earns 2:1 for gas and groceries, 1:1 for everthing else)
Various sign up bonuses[/QUOTE]
WilcoRoger
May 9, 12, 2:49 pm
on AY 13 HEL-NRT C one ways vs 11 (was 10) on SK
on AY 15 HEL-NYC C one ways vs 11 (was 10) on SK
on AY 17 HEL-LHR C one ways vs 17 (was 22) on SK
on AY 13 HEL-CPH C one ways vs 30 (was 17) on SK
This doesn't take into account any elite multipliers, so the real numbers are probably smaller.
The SK changes are much more beneficial for the eco traveller
helahela
May 10, 12, 3:27 am
I'm pretty sure you get *Alliance Gold for 50 segments. 35 ONLY in Norway. Otherwise I would be nearly gold...
intuition
May 10, 12, 6:39 am
It is a bit difficult to compare, due to the fact that a direct flight always will earn fewer miles (and cost more), resulting in a disadvantage using the home carrier from their respective hub. So I will compare hub for hub, i.e. comparing one direct flight to an connection flight. Maybe not the fairest compare, but the most adequate for a flyer.
Also, the value of status in the two programmes is not a solid figure to evaluate; it depends on the traveller's preferences. I have choosen to compare EBG to AY+GOLD, as the perks are about the same for each. I have taken into account tier-bonuses kicking in at 20k/50k resp 40k/90k/150k. I have choosen NRT and BKK as destinations, as both carriers have direct flights there, and calculated the number of trips needed to earn/retain gold if you only do this route and nothing else.
1. A HEL-flyer choosing SK and EB will earn GOLD quicker, but for a CPH-flyer there is no difference in the programs
2. A HEL-flyer will retain EBG easier than AY+G, but for a CPH-flyer there is no difference in the programs
NoWindowSeat
May 10, 12, 7:49 am
It is a bit difficult to compare, due to the fact that a direct flight always will earn fewer miles (and cost more), resulting in a disadvantage using the home carrier from their respective hub. So I will compare hub for hub, i.e. comparing one direct flight to an connection flight. Maybe not the fairest compare, but the most adequate for a flyer.
Also, the value of status in the two programmes is not a solid figure to evaluate; it depends on the traveller's preferences. I have choosen to compare EBG to AY+GOLD, as the perks are about the same for each. I have taken into account tier-bonuses kicking in at 20k/50k resp 40k/90k/150k. I have choosen NRT and BKK as destinations, as both carriers have direct flights there, and calculated the number of trips needed to earn/retain gold if you only do this route and nothing else.
1. A HEL-flyer choosing SK and EB will earn GOLD quicker, but for a CPH-flyer there is no difference in the programs
2. A HEL-flyer will retain EBG easier than AY+G, but for a CPH-flyer there is no difference in the programs
Nice summary and congrats on your 500th post during your 1st year on FT!
WilcoRoger
May 10, 12, 9:56 am
Good job, I didn't want to go into these "murky" waters! :)
SPBanker
May 10, 12, 1:18 pm
Good job, I didn't want to go into these "murky" waters! :)
Yeah, very valuable comparison. Hmm, perhaps I should try to do something similar for some other routes... After the hockey game!
intuition
May 10, 12, 3:13 pm
Oh, thanks guys!
Hehe, maybe it is because that I am having a dry spell in flying right now I have the time for it :D
Yeah, there is a bit of added complexity as tier-bonus affects tier points too. It is a good thing though, as it makes retaining easier.
I think SK will draw in a lot of EBGs the forthcoming year and keep them "locked in" for a long time due to the low threshold, the 100% earnings in low econ and the 1,25 tier bonus.
I wonder if it isn't time for AY to start wondering about these things too...
WilcoRoger
May 10, 12, 3:38 pm
I think SK will draw in a lot of EBGs the forthcoming year and keep them "locked in" for a long time due to the low threshold, the 100% earnings in low econ and the 1,25 tier bonus.
I wonder if it isn't time for AY to start wondering about these things too...
It's not so much the number of EBGs that AY should think about, but the load factors on its Scandinavian routes, among others. HEL-ARN or CPH on el cheapo fares earn next to nothing on AY but it does earn something on SK. I for one see no reason to fly these routes on AY - espcially that SK is often cheaper and sells one ways for reasonable prices.
intuition
May 11, 12, 2:22 am
It's not so much the number of EBGs that AY should think about, but the load factors on its Scandinavian routes, among others. HEL-ARN or CPH on el cheapo fares earn next to nothing on AY but it does earn something on SK. I for one see no reason to fly these routes on AY - espcially that SK is often cheaper and sells one ways for reasonable prices.
Actually, passenger load factor for AY euro-traffic was up to 77,5% in april, that's not too bad. ^
True, HEL-ARN (or other intra-scand) earns next to nothing in el-cheapo, but earns 3750 in C with plat bonus. So I have good reasons to go via HEL, at least until they complete the transfer of the complete route network to el-cheapo-airlines, reducing points and service to nothing..:mad:
NoWindowSeat
May 11, 12, 3:38 am
True, HEL-ARN (or other intra-scand) earns next to nothing in el-cheapo, but earns 3750 in C with plat bonus. So I have good reasons to go via HEL, at least until they complete the transfer of the complete route network to el-cheapo-airlines, reducing points and service to nothing..:mad:
If they cut the euro-traffic to LCC model (=no J etc.) can they really survive with their long haul Asia-Europe strategy after that...? I don't think so..AY have to keep good quality intra-euro J class or otherwise they will lose the Asian transit J business..pretty sure of that!
SPBanker
May 11, 12, 3:52 am
If they cut the euro-traffic to LCC model (=no J etc.) can they really survive with their long haul Asia-Europe strategy after that...? I don't think so..AY have to keep good quality intra-euro J class or otherwise they will lose the Asian transit J business..pretty sure of that!
I agree. I know some people in Asia who fly Finnair to European destinations, they are very aware of different companies' offerings. And if they fly J to Finland, they want to continue in the same class to wherever it is they are going to.
intuition
May 11, 12, 6:22 am
If they cut the euro-traffic to LCC model (=no J etc.) can they really survive with their long haul Asia-Europe strategy after that...? I don't think so..AY have to keep good quality intra-euro J class or otherwise they will lose the Asian transit J business..pretty sure of that!
Exactly!
I usually try to avoid modelling the world after my own views, but in this case I find it difficult to see the regular-joe accepting feeder traffic in Y if the LH is in J. (Writing this I realise I sound really von-oben - what I mean is that why on earth should anyone with a budget for J travel, choose to go via HEL in Y).
nordic
May 11, 12, 12:24 pm
I agree. I know some people in Asia who fly Finnair to European destinations, they are very aware of different companies' offerings. And if they fly J to Finland, they want to continue in the same class to wherever it is they are going to.
Swiss did try something similar. I don't remember if it was buy on board and one-class. The connecting first-class passengers complained and the old service concept was reintroduced. Brussels airlines skipped business class when the merger with SN Brussels and Virgin Express happened. A couple of years ago intra-European business class was reintroduced and the B.flex class was kept. I wonder why AY can't offer Eco+ on its Long-haul flights.
kauppias
May 11, 12, 1:05 pm
Swiss did try something similar. I don't remember if it was buy on board and one-class. The connecting first-class passengers complained and the old service concept was reintroduced. Brussels airlines skipped business class when the merger with SN Brussels and Virgin Express happened. A couple of years ago intra-European business class was reintroduced and the B.flex class was kept. I wonder why AY can't offer Eco+ on its Long-haul flights.