Asia - Visiting HKG, SIN and NRT in preparation for moving to Asia

Hi there.

My girlfriend and I are moving to Asia for about five months; we were looking at Hong Kong as a homebase -- I work remotely and can work while in Hong Kong.

That being said, we've never been in Asia, so I'm traveling out to our possible homebase cities next month to get a feel for them.

I'm in HKG Jan 20-29; since it overlaps the sleepy days of Chinese New Years, I'm hopping to Singapore for the 24th-27th. Then, on the return leg I'm spending three nights in Tokyo.

1) Am I doing myself a major disservice by not considering Bangkok and KL? We're going to be visiting them for sure once we move to Asia; but I hadn't considered them for living purposes...
2) Any recommendations on things to see/places to visit/neighborhoods to get to know for someone _planning to live there?_ -- they'll be plenty of time for tourism in the future; but I want to make sure I get a feel for the cities...

Any thoughts or advice appreciated... thanks!

Realistically, do you think you can really decide where you're going to spend half a year based on a couple of very short trips? I would suggest doing some serious research into possible places you might want to live before making the plunge. You simply can't go "city shopping" all over Asia in a few weeks.

Personally, I'd never consider living in BKK, imo the quality of life just isn't there compared to what you'd find in SIN, KUL or many other cities in Asia. TYO will seem like utter chaos for a first-time visitor and I imagine you'd spend months trying to find your way around and English is not well understood in Japan. HKG, SIN and KUL are far more foreigner-friendly, particularly SIN which is the cleanest city you'll find in Asia. I'm not trying to discourage you but I don't understand what sort of help you expect to receive with such a general post about moving to Asia where you've mentioned 5 cities in 5 different and distant countries.

Where are you from? Background? Can you speak other languages?

You did pick three cities where the cost of living is very high. Is money going to be an issue? Rent is going to be very expensive.

As previous poster mentioned, language will be a barrier in Japan.

Fair points; my post was a bit scattered. Lets try to clarify...

HKG is our main plan right now - the trip is to get a feel for it (preliminary) to see if it's a dealbreaker or not. SIN is a backup. KUO has been recommended but I haven't really planned on it.

Tokyo's just a tourist stop- we decided not to live there on this trip unless I really hate SIN and HKG; something I find unlikely.

We're pretty mobile; so if we end up someplace and don't like it, we'll just move; but given the cost of HKG; I wanted to spend at least three or four days boots on the ground -- some cities just feel like home (Stockholm, Calcutta, New Orleans, Portalnd, London); some don't (Karachi, DC, Glasgow).

So I guess my questions -- should I force room in the itinerary for KUO? Where would you visit in HKG/SIN to get an idea of the expat life in those cities?

thanks

Where are you from? Background? Can you speak other languages?

You did pick three cities where the cost of living is very high. Is money going to be an issue? Rent is going to be very expensive.

As previous poster mentioned, language will be a barrier in Japan.

First generation Indian/Pakistani/Africa (I look Indian) born in the states. Girlfriend is effectively white.

English, smattering of Hindi, Spanish, Urdu. She speaks English, some spanish, and Latin. (well, Ancient.)

I'm reasonably well traveled at my age - 3 months in Uzbekistan, 3 months in the UK/Ireland; 1 month in Africa, probably 3 months in Europe total over all the trips; a month in India/Pakistan.

She's very well traveled in the States (daughter of a WN FA); a week in Egypt and a few weeks in Europe.

I had figured Cost of Living to be high -- although I'm still figuring out what to estimate for that. We're at $2k rent in New Orleans right now; but for a far more spacious place than we expect anywhere in Asia. I'm not in a situation where I'll _run out_ of money; but there's a threshold beyond where I'm spending more than I make and pulling from savings. If I kept rent for a reasonably well placed 1BR/Studio below $3500USD; I'd be happy. $4500USD is financially managable, although I'll grumble a bit. If we start talking about $6000USD; I could just book a month at the W... [So I guess, can you ballpark cost of living?]

The logic behind the bigger cities are
a) Travel hubs - we'll be visiting around a lot.
b) Biz dev - I'm in telecom; and HK is the center of Asia as far as Telecom so there are some opportuntiies
c) We're young, childless, and exploring. Might as well pick a fantastic place whilst we can afford it and don't have the distraction of children and family.

So very much thanks,

So I guess my questions -- should I force room in the itinerary for KUO? Where would you visit in HKG/SIN to get an idea of the expat life in those cities?


If you want to see a glimpse into expat life in HKG, HK Island is the place to be, especially the west side of the island including Central (not to live... but it's the heart of HKG) and Mid-Levels (expensive area where lots of affluent expats live). I'm not that rich to live in Mid-Levels or other expensive neighbourhoods so I'm out in a nicer part of the New Territories. Don't underestimate housing prices in HKG, if you're used to living in a detached house the size of a typical flat will be shocking as well.

I don't know SIN from a resident's perspective, but it is obviously very expat-friendly and English is the primary language there which is a big benefit.

If you really want to experience life in Asia just for a few months KUL is definitely a place I'd consider. I know lots of Brits living in PEN and KUL and they all love it because the living costs are not as high as HKG or SIN but they're still modern cities where you get to experience a new lifestyle and fantastic food. English is well-understood in Malaysia compared to most other Asian countries, probably just a notch below HKG.

As previous poster mentioned, language will be a barrier in Japan.

This is definitely true when compared to HK and Singapore, but a lot of expats live quite well in Tokyo, for years on end, with only a minimal command of Japanese. Most people in Japan cannot converse in English, but pretty much everyone can recall simple words and phrases from high school. I would occasionally go with monolingual friends to help them at the city hall, bank, post office, etc., but in almost any instance (often to my surprise) they could get things done on their own in English.

The bigger problems with Tokyo in this case would be the climate (more extreme than HK or SIN, particularly in the winter), the more closed-off immigration system, and the inconvenience of the airports. OTOH, the city is incredibly safe, the food scene is the best in the world, and there are many interesting travel destinations accessible within the country.

HK is slightly larger than Singapore, and the two of them put together are about half the population of Tokyo. Singapore seems to have better housing options than HK or Tokyo, and is also probably the easiest place for a South Asian-looking person to blend in (though there is a growing population in Tokyo as well).

I have lived in or have relatives living in every single one of the cities mentioned except BKK, so I felt it might be all right for me to jump in here for a little bit.

KUL is most definitely a very overlooked place when it comes to living as an expatriate. If you are earning a western salary, you will get the best bang for your buck in Malaysia. Housing is far cheaper per square foot, shopping is plentiful, tourism in Malaysia is easy/cheap and airfare is also much cheaper originating from within Malaysia. Gas is cheap, and you could probably buy a car for your time there (or rent/lease). KUL has fantastic food. Neighborhoods to consider include: Mont Kiara or Damansara (if you have a lot of money and want to live the expat-centric life; say about $5000USD/month), Puchong, Sri Petaling, Subang Jaya, Petaling Jaya if you want to try how the middle classes live ($2000/month will do you quite well, and you can really live well for $3500.)

SIN is comparable to KUL but more expensive. Public transit is better in SIN, to make up for you not likely having a car. Cost of living in SIN is higher as the SGD is valued more highly than the MYR, so travel expenses will mount quickly. Food is comparable. You will get far smaller living space in SGD, and you will only be able to get an apartment, in all likelihood. Expat-to-local ratio is higher in SIN too. Anywhere in SIN is really all the same IMHO, but Orchard/River Valley and surroundings are probably going to be more expensive than, say, Sentosa or Ang Mo Kio. Bukit Merah is a steal if you can rent it cheaply. Figure on $3500-$5500 a month.

If you REALLY want to live in HKG, the pros are that food is fantastic (though KUL and SIN are comparable) and HKG is a very cosmopolitan place (SIN is comparable, KUL a little sleepier.) Public transit is great. Housing, however, is going to be a shock because you will pay a LOT of money for a tiny shoebox. (My sister can attest to this.) Try for Causeway Bay if you can swing it as it will probably provide the best value for an expat. I wouldn't expect to live here in any sort of comfort for anything less than $4500 a month for two people.

TYO is fantastic if you not averse to high cost-of-living. It is possible to live decently cheaply in Japan, but you will need to be flexible in where you want to live. For lower rents while still being VERY accessible, try the smaller stations on the Yamanote (eg. Komagome). Yoyogi, by the way, is a FANTASTIC gem of a place to live. Walking distance to Shinjuku and the fantastic nightlife available there, and yet it still feels like a small neighborhood. (If you do end up living in Yoyogi, let me know, I have a list of the best value-for-your-money places to eat.) All this does not come cheap--housing alone will likely cost at least $1500 a month, most likely closer to $2500, and then you have to add food, utilities, transport, shopping, entertainment etc on top of that. My experience was about $4000/month for two in cheap housing (30-yr old building with no insulation; DAMNED cold in the winter.)

The cons with NRT/TYO are that if either of you have a strong foreign accent or any problems with picking up bits of Japanese, you are going to feel very frustrated very quickly, especially any time you try to do anything on the phone or on the Internet. Sure, you could spend a lot of money frequenting expat-friendly places, but that kind of defeats the purpose of living in a different country. You want the off-the-beaten path places, the places where all the menus are written in Japanese and the master (bartender/owner) looks blankly at you when you say anything that isn't in Japanese. Also, if you are South Asian, you will quickly feel very frustrated that the police seem to single you out to check for passports etc.

If there are any specific questions you have, please feel free to ask.

Do you have a plan for dealing with visa status? It sounds like you are self-employed, therefore will not have a company sponsor to get any sort of temporary residence-type of paperwork that will maximize your flexibility. If you will need to make at least one or more exits to obtain a new visa, then re-enter...certain places are more amenable to this than others.

Unless you really must be in HK for business reasons, I personally would choose Singapore or KL as the base of operations---better balance of cost and quality of life, and better for travel hub purposes if your explorations are SE-Asia focused. I would pass on TYO for reasons mentioned above, and it's a horrible home base if you want to use as a springboard for other Asia travel (flights too expensive). Fond as I am of Bangkok, I would right now rank it behind SIN, KL, HK for your purposes. If you need a reliable and speedy electronic infrastructure to carry out your business. Thailand is not the best choice. HK is horribly expensive for rents, and my sources tell me that expat life is insular and not as welcoming or friendly as some of the other Asia cities. Over the long haul, I personally would find HK lifestyle claustrophobic especially if I wasn't working...but you and GF are only talking about being in Asia for months rather than years, so maybe this doesn't matter.

Do you have a plan for dealing with visa status? It sounds like you are self-employed, therefore will not have a company sponsor to get any sort of temporary residence-type of paperwork that will maximize your flexibility. If you will need to make at least one or more exits to obtain a new visa, then re-enter...certain places are more amenable to this than others.

I haven't as of yet. I've got business contacts there that I can ask about a company sponsor; is that something I'll need? I figured [ignorance, I know] that I could get a multi-entry 6 month visa as an American pretty easily. My girlfriend would be looking for local work -- harder [if possible - not sure if this was likely for visa reasons.] I was thinking of getting a multi-entry CN visa, HK visa and then figuring out as we go for the rest... but it's all very fuzzy at the moment. What sort of flexibility would I get with the temp-residency paperwork; and how many favors is it worth calling in to make it happen?


Unless you really must be in HK for business reasons, I personally would choose Singapore or KL as the base of operations---better balance of cost and quality of life, and better for travel hub purposes if your explorations are SE-Asia focused. I would pass on TYO for reasons mentioned above, and it's a horrible home base if you want to use as a springboard for other Asia travel (flights too expensive). Fond as I am of Bangkok, I would right now rank it behind SIN, KL, HK for your purposes. If you need a reliable and speedy electronic infrastructure to carry out your business. Thailand is not the best choice. HK is horribly expensive for rents, and my sources tell me that expat life is insular and not as welcoming or friendly as some of the other Asia cities. Over the long haul, I personally would find HK lifestyle claustrophobic especially if I wasn't working...but you and GF are only talking about being in Asia for months rather than years, so maybe this doesn't matter.
My impressions (unfounded) of Singapore were of a pretty conservative living space; versus a much more chaotic and vibrant HK. I absolutely need fast internet; so sounds like Thailand is out. We're from Los Angeles; so large cities aren't unknown to us - and large communities (although the urban density of any of these places vastly outclasses Los Angeles.)

500 sq ft apartments aren't as daunting for us -- since I'll be coworking/renting an office - we're used to having roommates; and we're not anticipating guests...

Thank you for all the thoughts -- please keep them coming; I'm replying to add more data to the conversation...

Any best of research books for the region btw -- Lets Go, Frommers, Lonely Planet, or something else? I'll be buying Kindle/iPhone versions of whatever...

I haven't as of yet. I've got business contacts there that I can ask about a company sponsor; is that something I'll need? I figured [ignorance, I know] that I could get a multi-entry 6 month visa as an American pretty easily. My girlfriend would be looking for local work -- harder [if possible - not sure if this was likely for visa reasons.] I was thinking of getting a multi-entry CN visa, HK visa and then figuring out as we go for the rest... but it's all very fuzzy at the moment. What sort of flexibility would I get with the temp-residency paperwork; and how many favors is it worth calling in to make it happen?

I can only speak for Japan, but here it is a royal pain to sponsor yourself for a visa. If you are self-employed you basically have to come in as an investor/business manager, which means submitting business plans and a bunch of other docs to the immigration bureau and waiting for them to review everything.

If you want an employer to sponsor you, you generally have to have some kind of employment contract with them; independent contractor arrangements are not enough. The employer will also need to submit financials and other documents to immigration in order to prove that it's a bona fide employer (perhaps exempted if it's a big listed company).

I believe this is generally how things work in HK and Singapore too, though they are probably more efficient about it, and I understand that incorporating yourself there (if not sponsoring yourself) is very easy.

Some people freelance in foreign countries as visa-less tourists and have no trouble doing so, but it's likely to be technically illegal, and you are most likely to get caught if you are coming and going a lot (since it will leave a ton of stamps in your passport). There are practical problems with the strategy even if you aren't caught -- you may not be able to get local ID, set up a local bank account, use local health care, perhaps even rent an ordinary apartment without a proper resident visa status.

I would not even consider bangkok... it IS close to other countries for visiting, and airfares can be cheap from there... but it is often sticky hot (although you might be used to that from New Orleans!), can be dirty and the traffic is a nightmare. Food can be very good... at street side stalls... and some of the best thai food i have had has been at some three star hotels (I even took some locals there and they agreed). But at tourist places it can be very average.

But the rest of Bangkok can be difficult - especially the traffic. I go to bangkok anywhere for 5-10 times a year... not a place I'd want to live.

Hong Kong I love. Compact, good shopping (including for discount designer clothing), great views, great for food and drink and a buzz that is unique with trams and the harbour. Airport is easy to get to, but airfares can be expensive.

Spent a couple of months in Tokyo this year, living with a friend about 18 minutes by local train from Shinjuku. The food is great... but if you want to sit back and watch tv or anything then you will find almost no programming in english. Nor will you find many people in a phone shop or drycleaning place or anywhere else that can converse with you... but as you say - that is more of a holiday.

Singapore I can't really comment on, been there for short stays but nothing else.

I would not even consider bangkok... it IS close to other countries for visiting, and airfares can be cheap from there... but it is often sticky hot (although you might be used to that from New Orleans!), can be dirty and the traffic is a nightmare. Food can be very good... at street side stalls... and some of the best thai food i have had has been at some three star hotels (I even took some locals there and they agreed). But at tourist places it can be very average.

But the rest of Bangkok can be difficult - especially the traffic. I go to bangkok anywhere for 5-10 times a year... not a place I'd want to live.

Hong Kong I love. Compact, good shopping (including for discount designer clothing), great views, great for food and drink and a buzz that is unique with trams and the harbour. Airport is easy to get to, but airfares can be expensive.

Spent a couple of months in Tokyo this year, living with a friend about 18 minutes by local train from Shinjuku. The food is great... but if you want to sit back and watch tv or anything then you will find almost no programming in english. Nor will you find many people in a phone shop or drycleaning place or anywhere else that can converse with you... but as you say - that is more of a holiday.

Singapore I can't really comment on, been there for short stays but nothing else.

Have you spent an extended period of time in HK?

if you choose KUL, great food, and like another person said best bang for your buck. also you can fly AirAsia for cheap to HKG, TYO, and many other places in Asia, like taiwan and china..i think they fly to korea now as well

Have you spent an extended period of time in HK?

I lived there for about 4 months back in 2008. I think you are doing a good thing to visit some places to decide... you can get a good feeling of the vibe of a place pretty quickly. hong kong is one of those paces you can fall in love with on about day 2! (make sure you are there for at least a Thursday, Friday or Saturday night and go for a walk around central and Lang Kai fong. have a look on the hinge kong forum on ft where people have asked for suggestions for. ashore hong kong layover... that contains most of the things. (in fact that would hold true for most of the places you want to visit on this trip).

on your first arrival at hong kong you may have a bit of a wait for immigration... but if you have an eligible passport then you can get a frequent traveller card or register for e-entry once you have completed three visits. that cuts immigration down to about 30 seconds (never any queues).

Bangkok on the other hand... often long queues, long walks and the airport is a good 30 minute super-fast-no-seatbelt taxi ride from town (or express train and taxi).

Base on facts that I gather about OP I am suggesting SIN.

1. S-Asians are more welcomed in SIN by the general population.

2. Easy hop over to Malaysia to reset 90 days visitor visa as opposed to HKG.

My girlfriend would be looking for local work -- harder [if possible - not sure if this was likely for visa reasons.] I was thinking of getting a multi-entry CN visa, HK visa and then figuring out as we go for the rest... but it's all very fuzzy at the moment. What sort of flexibility would I get with the temp-residency paperwork; and how many favors is it worth calling in to make it happen?

Your gf will not be able to work legally in any of these countries unless you get her a "working spouse" visa, but for five months the paperwork and trouble is not worth it. She should just enjoy her time there, whatever country it is.

My impressions (unfounded) of Singapore were of a pretty conservative living space; versus a much more chaotic and vibrant HK.

Not sure where you got this one. I feel quite confident in telling you that is not the case as SIN and HKG are actually quite similar in this aspect. I still feel you should give KUL a chance.

Base on facts that I gather about OP I am suggesting SIN.

1. S-Asians are more welcomed in SIN by the general population.

2. Easy hop over to Malaysia to reset 90 days visitor visa as opposed to HKG.

I agreed with tentseller. You will blend in very well in Singapore - Indians are one of the four major ethnic group in SG. A hop to Malaysia to get your visa reset is a chore but a short one since Malaysia is only separated from SG like USA and Canada at Niagara Falls (However, avoid Chinese New Year and other public holidays and rush hour)

There's a red light district in SG. So, do your research thoroughly before choosing where to rent.

SG is near the equator, so, it can get really hot and humid all year round, without any major season change.

Transportation by SMRT (subway) - very clean and efficient - if you don't mind traveling with crowds.

Crime - relatively safe place, as always, being a foreigner, one should use lots of common sense

place to go - lots of touristy place geared towards tourists, however, if you love Nature, you can fly to BKI where there's beaches and snorkeling places or travel relatively cheap to Australia on Air Asia.

Not sure where you got this one. I feel quite confident in telling you that is not the case as SIN and HKG are actually quite similar in this aspect. I still feel you should give KUL a chance.

SIN at least calms down at night, HKG never sleeps. In terms of industry, geography and British heritage they're similar but I'd agree with the statement that SIN is a quieter place than HKG. And while SIN is a crowded place, I never felt as "choked" there as I do in most parts of Kowloon or the north side of HK island.

I agree that OP should consider KUL, it seems to fit the bill very well for his needs and there is a significant South Asian minority in Malaysia like in SIN so racial issues would be minimal.

Your gf will not be able to work legally in any of these countries unless you get her a "working spouse" visa, but for five months the paperwork and trouble is not worth it. She should just enjoy her time there, whatever country it is.

Not sure where you got this one. I feel quite confident in telling you that is not the case as SIN and HKG are actually quite similar in this aspect. I still feel you should give KUL a chance.
Is working while getting paid under the table an option in these countries as it is in Europe?

I could hop to KL from SIN; is there a short cheap method? (just fly?)

My SIN vs HKG impressions come from just googling Hong Kong vs Singapore and reading forum posts on various travel forums...

Thanks!

While being of South Asian descent; I'm about as whitewashed as they come. [Which goes to say that I don't spend a lot of time with people who look like me. In Dubai they assumed I was Pakistani [and therefore should be driving a cab] until I opened my mouth, at which point they said --- 'oh you're an American.' Funny world this.]

I dress pretty dapper and walk with an American gait [long story ... a Turkish rugseller taught me to watch gait to figure out nationality] so I'm not usually mistaken for an Indo/Pakistani [nationality wise.]


All this to say --- are you thinking I'm going to run into significant ethnicity issues in HKG? It's one of the reasons I'm avoiding Japan; but I hadn't figured to have much of a problem in Hong Kong.

Truly appreciate all the advice; it's giving me lots to think about.

Being from the USA southeast myself, if you are OK with New Orleans weather and the heat/humidity/rain in the summer, you will be fine with Singapore or KL, so that's probably not a criteria worth worrying about. HK will need a bit more warmth added to your current winter wardrobe, though it's more jacket-chilly than overcoat-cold, and the winter period is not too long. I don't think you'll have significant race issues in HK on the street, you'll just look like a foreign banker or corporate exec, though to be sure, in Sing or KL those of South Asia descent would be more numerous.

I also don't think you'd have trouble doing face-to-face business if that is your worry. Both HK and Sing are Chinese cities when it comes to business and making money, which means if you've got a good idea, a good pitch, and want to make money and get others involved in doing so, the business communities will be willing to at least listen. KL has a different vibe going on business-wise, with the Malays and often-disruptive political inputs into economics and business. But all this may not matter if you are working on projects from home and don't need to interact with the local business community establishment too much in any choice of location.

All this to say --- are you thinking I'm going to run into significant ethnicity issues in HKG? It's one of the reasons I'm avoiding Japan; but I hadn't figured to have much of a problem in Hong Kong.


No, you should be fine especially since you're a native English speaker and will look like just another expat or tourist in HKG. You can definitely tell an Indo-American and a "real" South Asian Indian apart.

I would rate Bangkok way above KL.

Yes you get good food in KL but you get even better food in Bangkok. Accommodation may be cheap in KL but it's just as cheap in Bangkok.
And that's it, apart from good (but not that cheap) food and low accommodation cost; everything is a rip-off in KL with practically everything monopolized by cronies of the ruling party.

1) KUL is one of the more expensive airports to fly from, thanks to the Air Asia - MH cartel controlled by TF. In comparison you have so many choices if you fly from BKK with practically every airline flying there.

2) Airport taxis at KUL is monopolized by one company (for each terminal) with road blocks by the authorities making sure it remains this way. Plenty of choices at BKK.

3) The KLIA Express used to claim to be one of the cheapest train to the airport at USD10-12. I believe one can get to BKK by train for less than USD2.

4) Try getting a taxi in KL during peak hours or when it rains, especially in zones restricted to one company like Sentral. It once took me more than 1 hr to get a cab when there were on 3 passenger ahead of me in the queue.Taxis seems plentiful in Bangkok.

5) While traffic may be bad in Bangkok, there is always the sky train which works. The inner city trains in KL were not designed with passengers in mind, more for awarding contracts to cronies of politicians.

6) Cost of living is kept artificially high in KL; if you need to buy or rent a car it will on average cost 30-50% more than in BKK thanks to the protectionist policies, a simple meal in a coffee shop costs almost twice in KL due to high cost in securing permits for foreign labour etc etc Practically everything is monopolized by cronies of the ruling party, even right down to distribution of essentials like rice, sugar etc

7) I am not sure about Internet speed in Thailand, but I didn't notice it to be any better in Malaysia.

8) You cant even get to read proper news in KL, the major newspapers are nothing more than propaganda machineries of the ruling party churning out rubbish and lies which makes you puke. Always refreshing for me to read a proper newspaper like the Bangkok Post whenever I am Thailand.

If cost is not an issue, Singapore is the obvious choice. Otherwise Bangkok is a much better alternative than KL.

Mario, he already said he needs good internet infrastructure to deal with his business issues, and Bangkok (actually all Thailand) is the most problematic for that compared to any other place already mentioned. Really inadequate when you need speed and dependability.

Since he's only going to be wherever he chooses to go for several months and not for a long haul, I don't think issues like the price of buying cars is at the top of the critical list. I will refrain from commenting on your perceived quality of the Bangkok Post. It has surely declined in quality over the years. At any rate, I suspect the poster will get most of his news from internet sources, just like those of us based in China have to do (via VPN). In short, most of the objections you raised to KL are of minimal importance to somebody doing an extended tourist/traveler stay (which he is), rather than completely looking to expatriate for years to come.

Mario, he already said he needs good internet infrastructure to deal with his business issues, and Bangkok (actually all Thailand) is the most problematic for that compared to any other place already mentioned. Really inadequate when you need speed and dependability.

Since he's only going to be wherever he chooses to go for several months and not for a long haul, I don't think issues like the price of buying cars is at the top of the critical list. I will refrain from commenting on your perceived quality of the Bangkok Post. It has surely declined in quality over the years. At any rate, I suspect the poster will get most of his news from internet sources, just like those of us based in China have to do (via VPN). In short, most of the objections you raised to KL are of minimal importance to somebody doing an extended tourist/traveler stay (which he is), rather than completely looking to expatriate for years to come.

As I have said, Internet speed in Malaysia is not any better than in Thailand based on my experience.

The OP may not decide to buy a car, but he may need to rent one. Either way Bangkok is much cheaper.

If you doubt the quality of journalism by Bangkok Post, then you should try reading the New Straits Times. While you can certainly get news from the internet, CNN will not report on many local issues which may affect or interest you.

And I think cost of food or eating out, ease and cost of public transport, cost of flying etc etc are things one should consider if you are staying for more than a week.

Your gf will not be able to work legally in any of these countries unless you get her a "working spouse" visa, but for five months the paperwork and trouble is not worth it. She should just enjoy her time there, whatever country it is.

If you go to SIN consider her getting a work holiday visa. She could then work legally for any employer for 6 months or so. IF you decide to go this route PM me and I'll try to connect you with a FTer that did this earlier this year.

There's a red light district in SG. So, do your research thoroughly before choosing where to rent. In my extensive apt search in SIN earlier this year I was never shown an apt in/near any of the RLDs. Is this an issue you've come across? Different in SIN then elsewhere?


I would rate Bangkok way above KL.

I'd rate it above SIN and HKG as well. I really dislike HKG. I don't find the people to be warm at all. Interactions with taxi drivers and shopkeepers is just not pleasant. Spending a few more days here last week and this has only reinforced my opinion. BKK and KUL would give a more authentic Asian experience IMO but I haven't spent enough time in KUL to compare.


Accommodation may be cheap in KL but it's just as cheap in Bangkok. And BKK housing is an order of magnitude cheaper than SIN.


4) Try getting a taxi in KL during peak hours or when it rains, especially in zones restricted to one company like Sentral. It once took me more than 1 hr to get a cab when there were on 3 passenger ahead of me in the queue.Taxis seems plentiful in Bangkok.
SIN is also a pain for getting cabs during the rain or during late afternoon and late night shift changes. While you can SMS for a taxi it may take 20 mins during rain or shift changes to get a confirmation rather than a response that there are no taxis available.


7) I am not sure about Internet speed in Thailand, but I didn't notice it to be any better in Malaysia. Unless the OP is doing split second day trading I don't think that Internet speeds in BKK will be a hindrance to doing business. I've never had trouble with the internet speeds in doing normal business.

I've been living in SIN for nearly 6 months. I'd move to BKK tomorrow if I could match my salary in SIN. A few random points:


BKK has more of a vibrant Asian feeling than Singapore.
I don't see the high percentage of expats as a positive thing. I'd rather immerse myself in a culture that is more different than my own.
BKK is as much of a travel hub as SIN.
Cost of living in SIN is much more expensive than BKK
Under the table work is probably easier in BKK
You will find people that won't rent apts to you in SIN based on your ethnicity.
You can find anything you miss from home in either city.
BKK has BKK Bagels. I've yet to find a good bagel in SIN.

Not sure why so many here are defending BKK so profusely. It's a fun place to visit but it's one of the last major cities in Asia which I'd want to live in. There is no such thing as one city being more "authentic" than another. Colonial history does not make one city less "authentically Asian" than another. SIN, HKG and KUL each have their own special culture because of their history which makes them unique. Compared to BKK, I'd much prefer to live in HKG, SIN, TPE, KUL, PEN or SHA. I'd even prefer SEL or PEK.

Honestly sometimes I wonder what kind of "business" people are really doing in BKK.

The cons with NRT/TYO are that if either of you have a strong foreign accent or any problems with picking up bits of Japanese, you are going to feel very frustrated very quickly, especially any time you try to do anything on the phone or on the Internet. Sure, you could spend a lot of money frequenting expat-friendly places, but that kind of defeats the purpose of living in a different country. You want the off-the-beaten path places, the places where all the menus are written in Japanese and the master (bartender/owner) looks blankly at you when you say anything that isn't in Japanese. Also, if you are South Asian, you will quickly feel very frustrated that the police seem to single you out to check for passports etc.

If there are any specific questions you have, please feel free to ask.

I am traveling to Kyoto and Tokyo next month... I'm a young American girl, of East-Indian ethnicity. Like rizwank, I have an American accent and dress relatively well. Is my ethnicity going to be a problem in Japan (e.g. being singled out in immigration/customs, outside of the airport, etc)?

I too recommend SIN. It's one of my favorite places. You'll blend in (if that's a concern), it's clean, nice, etc. It is a really strict country though. And, you being from LA like myself, the weather in SIN is no fun. It's basically 80 degrees and humid yearround, with some monsoons thrown in.

For what it's worth - my father is Indian (from India), has an accent, all of that. He does business in/with China and has never had any issues that I know of.

For what it's worth - my father is Indian (from India), has an accent, all of that. He does business in/with China and has never had any issues that I know of.

China is really a place where the colour of your money talks louder than the colour of your skin.

I find Japan and Korea to be quite close-minded and discriminatory societies when it comes to race. Even other East Asians who live in these countries face discrimination in everyday life. However, if you talk and dress like an American you're unlikely to have any problems on a leisure visit. The big cities are simply too busy and fast-paced for people to even have time to care about the colour of your skin. Tourists come from all over the world to Tokyo, you'd be just another American, albeit a slightly darker one. I think discrimination in America is worse than in Asia sometimes.

China is really a place where the colour of your money talks louder than the colour of your skin.

I find Japan and Korea to be quite close-minded and discriminatory societies when it comes to race. Even other East Asians who live in these countries face discrimination in everyday life. However, if you talk and dress like an American you're unlikely to have any problems on a leisure visit. The big cities are simply too busy and fast-paced for people to even have time to care about the colour of your skin. Tourists come from all over the world to Tokyo, you'd be just another American, albeit a slightly darker one. I think discrimination in America is worse than in Asia sometimes.

I've been to South Korea (Seoul) and didn't experience any problems, so you're probably right.

That is an important point about the US. When I was thinking about all of this, it's not like America doesn't have it's fair share of racial problems.

Honestly sometimes I wonder what kind of "business" people are really doing in BKK.

The OP didn't ask about the easiest or best city to do business in Asia but the best place to base oneself. Obviously the responses show that the answer is not so clear cut. Everyone has their own preferences. You couldn't pay me enough to live in HKG or PEK but I'd happily live in TYO with the right package. Others love HKG but the closed society in TYO makes it a non-starter.

China is really a place where the colour of your money talks louder than the colour of your skin.

Of course, in China, everyone hates everyone else regardless of race. The first time I rode the Beijing subway, a guy chewed me out publicly (in Mandarin) because he thought I was taking up too much of the seat. The first time I took a taxi in Shanghai, the driver started telling off our ethnic Chinese companion because he thought she was being snooty by not translating for us (she only spoke Cantonese).

I find Japan and Korea to be quite close-minded and discriminatory societies when it comes to race. Even other East Asians who live in these countries face discrimination in everyday life.

A lot of the racial "discrimination" I have experienced in Japan has actually been favorable to me, and it's largely a product of dealing with people who haven't dealt with non-Asian people before. But that said, if you are a visitor who doesn't speak Japanese and has no clue what is going on around you, it's actually pretty nice to have people treat you "specially."

Of course, in China, everyone hates everyone else regardless of race. The first time I rode the Beijing subway, a guy chewed me out publicly (in Mandarin) because he thought I was taking up too much of the seat. The first time I took a taxi in Shanghai, the driver started telling off our ethnic Chinese companion because he thought she was being snooty by not translating for us (she only spoke Cantonese)

Mainland China is just an entirely different world. I go to PEK and CAN regularly for work and I dread going every time. I love China and Chinese culture but I could never live in China the way it is right now except for maybe YNJ. I love living in HKG (lifelong dream) and TPE would suit me fine too.

Is working while getting paid under the table an option in these countries as it is in Europe?

You didn't hear anything about that from me. I don't know if I could count on that for anything, honestly, but I have no experience and won't speculate on a public forum. :)

I could hop to KL from SIN; is there a short cheap method? (just fly?)

Take AirAsia, take the bus, take a train... heck, drive if you want. Lots of people do, but they also drive like maniacs and I don't recommend it until you know how to spot speed traps. Even then... :(

My SIN vs HKG impressions come from just googling Hong Kong vs Singapore and reading forum posts on various travel forums...

You're just going to have to form your own impressions. Everyone's going in with a different background. What is conservative to some people is thriving and vibrant to others.

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I am traveling to Kyoto and Tokyo next month... I'm a young American girl, of East-Indian ethnicity. Like rizwank, I have an American accent and dress relatively well. Is my ethnicity going to be a problem in Japan (e.g. being singled out in immigration/customs, outside of the airport, etc)?

Not all THAT likely in customs/immigration unless you have paperwork issues. You may or may not have show-me-your-passport issues depending on where you are (for example it's highly unlikely on Ginza's main street or most places in Aoyama), who you're with (more likely if you are a group of East-Indian-looking people, far less likely if you're with white/Japanese), what time of day it is (hopefully obvious), and who the police officer is.

I have a half-Indian friend, rather brown, who lived in Tokyo for a few years. The only incident he recalled was overhearing a lady report him to a nearby cop as a "suspicious foreigner" while he was waiting in line for an ATM. The cop basically shrugged the lady off as a nutcase.

housing in HKG can be atrociously expensive; especially if you want your place to be accessible you will pay alot of $$$$ :D

Somebody suggested getting a working holiday visa for Singapore.

However, it sounds as if both the OP and his girlfriend are U.S. citizens, and the U.S. does not participate in the working holiday program. Now if the girlfriend is Canadian, then she can get a working holiday visa in Canada before leaving for Singapore, but otherwise, she's out of luck.

Visa issues are a real concern. You'd be well advised to check the entry requirements and allowable stays in each country. Such information is available in all guidebooks and on the official immigration and customs websites of the places you're considering.

For example, in Japan, the country I know best, one can stay for 90 days on a tourist visa. However, it is impossible to open a bank account, buy a cellphone, or rent any apartment other than in an apartment hotel or a so-called "weekly mansion." It is definitely not OK to work, at least not in any job that the Japanese government can trace.

If you want to stay for five months, you'd better pick a country that allows you to stay for five months.

In my field (Japanese-English translation), there are people who have lived very nomadic lifestyles, hopping from one country to another and working from anywhere there is a strong Internet connection. They have the clients wire money to their bank account in their country of legal residence and use ATMs and credit cards for their living expenses.

I have a half-Indian friend, rather brown, who lived in Tokyo for a few years. The only incident he recalled was overhearing a lady report him to a nearby cop as a "suspicious foreigner" while he was waiting in line for an ATM. The cop basically shrugged the lady off as a nutcase.

Good for your friend, but don't just write off the various news reports just because they haven't happened to anyone you know. After 2009/2010, when they really started pushing the immigration crackdown, the passport-checking started. Besides, I don't know about you, but having strangers I don't know or have nothing to do with consider me a suspicious foreigner just because of the color of my skin would bother me a LOT. Not saying it happened to me in Japan, since I'm Chinese and blend right in... at least until someone tries to talk to me in Japanese.

For example, in Japan, the country I know best, one can stay for 90 days on a tourist visa. However, it is impossible to open a bank account, buy a cellphone, or rent any apartment other than in an apartment hotel or a so-called "weekly mansion."

This actually isn't entirely true. The actual rule is that you can't get a bank account, cell phone, etc. without an Alien Registration Card, which there is no requirement to possess when on a tourist visa. It is, however, perfectly possible to go register at the ward office and get an ARC on a tourist visa, which can then be used for bank accounts and so on.

Most landlords won't rent to you, but this isn't a legal issue, just the landlords being understandably concerned that you'd leave without paying for your entire lease. I've done a "normal" lease for a "mansion" in Tokyo on a tourist visa before while waiting for paperwork, and by agreeing to pay the entire lease in advance, had no problems. Of course, if you're only able to stick around for 90 days anyway, there's not much benefit in signing a long-term lease over just going with a weekly mansion-type arrangement.

Thanks for all the advice. I think I'm going to stick to my original program and visit SIN, HKG for possible living. *maybe* a day trip to KL. Can anyone recommend any additional neighborhoods I should make a point to visit; stay near; etc? Any favorite hotels?

I need to look into the Visa issue for Singapore and Hong Kong; looks like it's going to be more challenging than I initially thought. If anyone has had any experience in these matters; would love to get your thoughts.

Thanks everyone!

... visit SIN, HKG for possible living. *maybe* a day trip to KL. Can anyone recommend any additional neighborhoods I should make a point to visit; stay near; etc? Any favorite hotels?

I need to look into the Visa issue for Singapore and Hong Kong; looks like it's going to be more challenging than I initially thought.
You should be able to find local recommendations in our Hong Kong Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hong-kong-436/) & Singapore Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/singapore-510/). Both are quite active forum on its own.

I would think you should spend more time sorting out the (work) visa/permit issues, which apparently are more urgent before any decision for relocation can be made.

Thanks for all the advice. I think I'm going to stick to my original program and visit SIN, HKG for possible living. *maybe* a day trip to KL. Can anyone recommend any additional neighborhoods I should make a point to visit; stay near; etc? Any favorite hotels?

I need to look into the Visa issue for Singapore and Hong Kong; looks like it's going to be more challenging than I initially thought. If anyone has had any experience in these matters; would love to get your thoughts.

Thanks everyone!

for hinge kong... depends where you are looking to live... but for hong kong island I stay at the JJ hotel in wanchai.

large rooms, clean, comfortable, plenty of storage space for cases and clothes. television and free wi-fi, tea and coffee and supermarket in the basement.

the hotel is housed on floors 9-12 or a commercial block, and the public spaces are very small, there is no pool. but it comes in at about usd75 a night. I 'lived' there for my time in hong kong and always go back. it is close to ding ding to get around and central is only 10 mins away.

have a look on trip advisor... but ignore the comments about the location. many people try to save money by taking the airport express and then subway... that would make it hard. easiest to take the train to central and then a taxi (about 30 hong kong dollars plus baggage).

even if you are looking around TST for accommodation, I'd stay at the JJ for a couple days to be near everything on the island you want to see.

from Singapore to kl there are 'deluxe busses' with only three seats across and they recline like old 747 first class seats (lots of room). they even serve a meal! might be fun to do and see the scenery. I think you can google deluxe bus or something like that... there are a few companies that do it. iirc, it might be cheaper to buy two one ways as transport ex kl can sometimes be a lot cheaper.

This actually isn't entirely true. The actual rule is that you can't get a bank account, cell phone, etc. without an Alien Registration Card, which there is no requirement to possess when on a tourist visa. It is, however, perfectly possible to go register at the ward office and get an ARC on a tourist visa, which can then be used for bank accounts and so on.

This used to be the case, but now none of the phone companies will let you get a contract as a temporary visitor. Official rule; check their websites. I think some banks will still let you open an account with the status, but many definitely will not.

This used to be the case, but now none of the phone companies will let you get a contract as a temporary visitor. Official rule; check their websites. I think some banks will still let you open an account with the status, but many definitely will not.

Not certain about the others, but docomo definitely still allows this:

在留期限まで90日未満の場合は、月々のご利用料金をクレジットカードでお支払いになる場合に限りお申込み いただけます。クレジットカードは契約者ご本人名義のものに限ります。

In the case that it is less than 90 days until the residency expiration, application is limited to cases where the monthly service fees are paid by credit card. The credit card must be registered in your name.

http://www.nttdocomo.co.jp/support/procedure/document/verifying/

I just helped a friend with this about two months ago and there was no issue with setting up a docomo contract using a foreign-issued credit card and an ARC showing a temporary visitor status.

You should be able to find local recommendations in our Hong Kong Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hong-kong-436/) & Singapore Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/singapore-510/). Both are quite active forum on its own.

I would think you should spend more time sorting out the (work) visa/permit issues, which apparently are more urgent before any decision for relocation can be made.

I'm going to sort out the visa issues; but I've got an impending trip to HK/SIN in three weeks to visit; so I might as well sort out the travel details. Thanks for the recommendations for the forums!

Somebody suggested getting a working holiday visa for Singapore.

However, it sounds as if both the OP and his girlfriend are U.S. citizens, and the U.S. does not participate in the working holiday program. Now if the girlfriend is Canadian, then she can get a working holiday visa in Canada before leaving for Singapore, but otherwise, she's out of luck.

I suggested that she get the work holiday visa. US Citizens are eligible for work holiday visas in Singapore:

http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/work-holiday-programme/before-you-apply/Pages/default.aspx

I suggested that she get the work holiday visa. US Citizens are eligible for work holiday visas in Singapore:

http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/work-holiday-programme/before-you-apply/Pages/default.aspx

Somehow I don't get the impression the OP will qualify as a "student" which is a prerequisite for getting a WHV.

Somehow I don't get the impression the OP will qualify as a "student" which is a prerequisite for getting a WHV.

Nobody suggested the OP get a WHV. My suggestion was for his gf and my assumption is that they are younger than 30.

Thanks for the help everyone. I'm looking forward to HKG and SIN; I might do a daytrip to KUO; we'll see. Visas are definitely going to be an issue; but since my 'exploratory' trip is in a few weeks; I'll focus on seeing the cities first. Thanks so much!

Somebody suggested getting a working holiday visa for Singapore.

However, it sounds as if both the OP and his girlfriend are U.S. citizens, and the U.S. does not participate in the working holiday program. Now if the girlfriend is Canadian, then she can get a working holiday visa in Canada before leaving for Singapore, but otherwise, she's out of luck.


I just returned from a seven month stint in Singapore, six moths of them were spent on a Working Holiday Pass :)



Somehow I don't get the impression the OP will qualify as a "student" which is a prerequisite for getting a WHV.

The student status is a non-issue. I applied for the Working Holiday pass twice... mainly because the first time I was too busy with work in NYC and couldn't make it to Asia. I have been out of school for a while now.



Take AirAsia, take the bus, take a train... heck, drive if you want. Lots of people do, but they also drive like maniacs and I don't recommend it until you know how to spot speed traps. Even then... :(


The speed traps in Malaysia typically target cars with Singapore plates. I've done a few road trips around the southern part of the country, and so long as you reasonably stick to the posted speed limits and follow the road rules, you'll be fine.


I'm glad I got to check out this post... it will be helpful for my own future decisions, though I've pretty much made up my mind on Kuala Lumpur... I'm trying to see if Bangkok will be a good alternative. The only time I visited it was on a stop over from Sydney to London, and the airport looked like a zoo :) Then again, I visited Singapore a few times on similar Brisbane to London or Sydney to Paris trips and ended up living there... Asia has grown on me, if you were to ask me about it a year ago I would likely say that I'd never do it in a million years, now I'm actually looking forward to going back.

--Russ

You should be able to find local recommendations in our Hong Kong Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/hong-kong-436/) & Singapore Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/singapore-510/). Both are quite active forum on its own.


If opinions of actual expats matter I can recommend a few web sites dedicated to just that. (and many of those expats would think what we do on FlyerTalk is crazy)

I learned about www.internations.org while in Singapore and after attending about half a dozen of their monthly events I've met a ton of people from all over the world. InterNations often had from 300 to 700 actual members sign up for an event, especially places like Ku De Ta at MBS which were always packed.

In Taipei another InterNations member suggested a more Asian version of the networking community with a focus on doing business in China, called www.oriented.org Another great site for expats though not as active as the german site above.

I have since attended events beyond Singapore both in NYC and Auckland, New Zealand... neither place is as active as SG was but still a great way to meet expats or even locals that are interested in making new friends or business contacts.

The sites bill themselves as invitation-only exclusive communities, but they are open to everyone. So if you want an invite feel free to PM me.

thanks!