Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners) - Unruly child long haul business class

Just had a horrible experience on my FRA SFO flight on business class.
We picked row 1 for the peace of that area. But, it turns out that that area was the worst!!
They sat a family of 4 with a 3 year old boy in that area.
They were behaving like if they were in their living room. I went to the flight attendants and they suggested me to go to the purser. He said that it was nothing they could do, that during the holidays, they will have many families traveling. He asked me to tell the loud parents and boy to keep it down. It did not go well! They started shouting in German probably bad words to us.

Later, they changed the boy's diapers right there in their seats. I went back to the purser and this time he went to them and told them not to do that. Then i learned by a fellow passenger that spoke German that in fact this family was the purser''s family and he had placed them there. No wonder why he did not do a thing to control the monster. The flight attendants were scared when other passengers complained to them.
Not sure what Lufhtansa's policies are regarding situations like these ones.
At least 4 rows on business class were affected by this. Only 2 empy seats in the cabin and two "lucky" passengers were able to go back and stay away from the purser's family.
My traveler companion wants to send a complain but i am not sure if it will make a difference. And no clue where and to who send it.

Anybody had similar experiences?

Regards

It is worth sending a complaint. They will take it seriously and the Purser will probably lose their staff travel benefits for a year or so.

Sounds like a bad experience. I've seen the diaper in the seat before, the FAs didn't seem to care on my flight. I'd say write an email to CS, but I'm sure that is already done.

Definitely worth sharing the experience with LH CS. One would hope that the sense of entitlement some family & friends of some LH staff display is dialed back a bit and behaviour more subdued, but I guess you can't count on it.

If this occurred as you describe then the Purser should be reminded on how to properly manage the cabin and extend his supervisory duties to include his family. I would give it a go. You ar enot asking for anything, just pointing out a staff performance / service issue.

They sat a family of 4 with a 3 year old boy in that area.... Later, they changed the boy's diapers right there in their seats. Regards

3 years and still wearing diapers? Seems indeed a problem child! At this age, you should at least have pull ups, which can be changed in the toilet. Actually, at this age, most children should be completely diaper-free and toilet trained! I would indeed bitterly complain and demand 50 percent of ticket price back. Obviously you would have to desribe very detailed specific incidents!

3 years and still wearing diapers? Seems indeed a problem child!

In Germany children are sacred, there is even a recent court ruling that noise from them can not be complained about. Also the language not helping (I am of German mother language) they are especially loud compared to other nationalities. In Gernan this is called "vorlaut" :D.

Bad luck for you and if you are a regular LH premium customer complain firmly.

In Germany children are sacred, there is even a recent court ruling that noise from them can not be complained about. Also the language not helping (I am of German mother language) they are especially loud compared to other nationalities. In Gernan this is called "vorlaut" :D.

Bad luck for you and if you are a regular LH premium customer complain firmly.

I think that parental authority (or actually, the lack of it) is an international problem, not just German.
I have a few theories for the reason, but if I write them, they will be consider "off topic" and removed from this thread.

I would ban the use of Business class for anyone below 12 (or 10, it doesn't matter), but on the other hand, as a regular "cattle" class user, loud children in the business class is the sweatiest envy revenge one can possibly think of.

Naturally, the above said does not include the times I am upgraded :p

I would ban the use of Business class for anyone below 12 (or 10, it doesn't matter):p

I would ban the use of Business class for anyone who want to ban use of Business class for anyone below 12 (or 10, it doesn't matter)
:mad:

Send a complaint and mention that you think they were PADs / friends&family.

I would ban the use of Business class for anyone below 12 (or 10, it doesn't matter)
I don't think children are the problem, it's mostly the parents who are unwilling/unable to take care of their offspring.

I don't think children are the problem, it's mostly the parents who are unwilling/unable to take care of their offspring.

Exactly. We actually travel C because while our son is very quiet he has a horrible tendency to kick his legs and hit the seat in front of him when in Y. It is very tiresome for me to police his legs. In C the seat in front isn't an issue so it is a much more comfortable flight for me and the person in front of our son.

They started shouting in German probably bad words to us.

Don't argue with parents, it's usually 10x worse for them than it is for others, though people like to think the opposite. Of course it all depends on what is going on. If the kid is miserable and feels irritated on the flight for some reason, then that is different than allowing the kid to run around and scream from all corners of the biz cabin in "Dolby Surround Sound" style. :)

Later, they changed the boy's diapers right there in their seats.

You get that. Seen it time and time again. Personally I don't care as long as it's just a wet diaper. If it's the #2 type then that would be quite awful and a big no-no.

Still, nothing beats my experience from the Barcelona subway, where a mom and kid got off the train, and then right by the escalator (still on the station platform) she pulls down his pants and allows her boy to take a leak on the floor. Just like that, as if this was the normal thing to do.

Then i learned by a fellow passenger that spoke German that in fact this family was the purser''s family and he had placed them there. No wonder why he did not do a thing to control the monster.

That doesn't sound right. Knowing that the situation is putting a strain on people he would surely say something if they WERE his relatives, no?

Other than the nappy, not sure what they did other than being a kid? We fly business with our 3 and 1 year olds. They don't sit there and stare at the wall. They are cool and play iPad but you inevitably have some running around on long hall flights.And some yelling and such. Agree parents must make every effort to be respectful. As long as kids are allowed in biz this will happen. Not sure if you've had kids recently or what you expect but there is only so much a parent can do. As for the purser, agree that is incredibly unacceptable. .

Not sure if you've had kids recently or what you expect but there is only so much a parent can do..

How about discipline? And yes, I've flown with a three year old.

How about discipline?

Well, there are countries in Europe such as Norway that will strip you of your kids if you so much as raise your voice in an attempt to "discipline" them. According to the gov't they should be able to run around, scream, do whatever they want... basically to be kids.

And of course public transport is just that. Open for everyone.

There is a case for setting an age limit for travel in C/F, but until this happens those seats are open to everyone. And one can only assume that airlines have already made their calculations, and that continuing to allow kids seems to be the right decision financially.

There is a case for setting an age limit for travel in C/F, but until this happens those seats are open to everyone. And one can only assume that airlines have already made their calculations, and that continuing to allow kids seems to be the right decision financially.

At least one airline has set an age limit. ^
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-children/1231182-baby-ban-first-class-malaysia-airlines.html

"... Airline managing director and chief exexutive Tengku Azmil told the Australian Business Traveller that the carrier has received many complaints about crying infants from first class passengers that they "spend money on 1st class and can't sleep due to crying infants..."
Now that's my kind of airline CEO!! :cool:

Yeah, First Class fair enough. :)

I'm still wondering whether Malasia Airlines is just trying to grab attention this way though...

At least one airline has set an age limit. ^
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-children/1231182-baby-ban-first-class-malaysia-airlines.html

"... Airline managing director and chief exexutive Tengku Azmil told the Australian Business Traveller that the carrier has received many complaints about crying infants from first class passengers that they "spend money on 1st class and can't sleep due to crying infants..."
Now that's my kind of airline CEO!! :cool:

It is not a baby ban. They just do not sell tickets for lap infants. If you can afford it, you still can travel in F with then.

Well, there are countries in Europe such as Norway that will strip you of your kids if you so much as raise your voice in an attempt to "discipline" them. According to the gov't they should be able to run around, scream, do whatever they want... basically to be kids.

And of course public transport is just that. Open for everyone.

There is a case for setting an age limit for travel in C/F, but until this happens those seats are open to everyone. And one can only assume that airlines have already made their calculations, and that continuing to allow kids seems to be the right decision financially.

There are other ways to discipline your children than hitting them. I traveled a lot with my kids and always in C. No problem at all, but it is far from relaxing.

I only mentioned raising one's voice as not being allowed in some countries.

I thought this was about United for a moment there................
:D

I would ban the use of Business class for anyone who want to ban use of Business class for anyone below 12 (or 10, it doesn't matter):mad:Stunning and powerful first post on FT! :rolleyes:

Stunning and powerful first post on FT! :rolleyes:

Guess he won't be flying MH anytime soon? :D

It is very tiresome for me to police his legs.

Oh, you poor poor thing...

It is very tiresome for me to police his legs.

Oh, you poor poor thing...

Not sure how to take your comment or why you felt compelled to even make it. I don't know whether or not you have children or whether that's even relevant but I will expand on my previous statement. It IS tiresome to repeatedly tell a child "Don't kick the seat in front of you." The alternative is to simply allow him to kick the seat but I am not so inconsiderate. I suspect it's also tiresome for the travelers surrounding us to hear me repeat myself.

Not sure how to take your comment or why you felt compelled to even make it. I don't know whether or not you have children or whether that's even relevant but I will expand on my previous statement. It IS tiresome to repeatedly tell a child "Don't kick the seat in front of you." The alternative is to simply allow him to kick the seat but I am not so inconsiderate. I suspect it's also tiresome for the travelers surrounding us to hear me repeat myself.

There are many alternatives - any that involve disturbing or "being tiresome" to other passengers are not acceptable options.

Young Reignbeau or Taylaaahhh-Marie will kick the back of my seat once and only once, no matter how tiresome it might be for the parent to police its behaviour.

Your comment (bolded) is one part of your post that we can agree upon.

I don't know whether or not you have children or whether that's even relevant but I will expand on my previous statement. It IS tiresome to repeatedly tell a child "Don't kick the seat in front of you." The alternative is to simply allow him to kick the seat but I am not so inconsiderate. I suspect it's also tiresome for the travelers surrounding us to hear me repeat myself.

I had kids and now I have grandkids. In each and every case, all it required was a single and firm "STOP IT". Perhaps they heard it to mean "stop it or you will never fly anything but coach for the rest of your life" or "stop it or you won't live to see your next birthday" but they all got the message, and it did indeed stop.

I only mentioned raising one's voice as not being allowed in some countries.

Which is untrue for the country you used as your example.

It IS tiresome to repeatedly tell a child "Don't kick the seat in front of you." As was already said to you once .... "Oh, you poor thing"

Raise your children better, as SFO777 implies, and the pax around would never have to hear you repeat it.

I simply knew from the look of my mother's eyes .... "I love you and we've had lots of fun and mischief. But this is not the place. I am only saying this once ....... " and I was wise enough never to challenge her.

If they misbehave take them back and show them Y class. Indicate that that is where they will be flying from now on if they misbehave.

We've flown longhaul J with our now 5 and 3 year olds and we find the key is to bring plenty of distractions and amusements. Plus try and schedule overnight flights and break up really long trips with stopovers.

Mr Y...
I would ban the use of Business class for anyone below 12 (or 10, it doesn't matter),

Do you really mean this?
What next? people who speak different language, below 6 ft tall, wears a mustache or beard, or eye glasses... Do you really believe that a 3 year old knows what he/she is doing?

Perhaps, since they were relatives, the purser could have arranged for an open overhead bin?:)

Do you really believe that a 3 year old knows what he/she is doing?

No, but his/her parents certainly should.

Kids are kids, they won't always sit in their place, and they won't always stay quiet. :) If anyone wants to see what kids are like I suggest a trip to the local kindergarten.

Anyone who has a problem with kids, the noise they generate, the commotion, etc., should stay away from public transport and consider a private jet maybe?

We can always open up a new topic where those people can consolidate travel dates to make it somewhat affordable. It will certainly bring a new meaning to the definition of "group travel.":)

Anyone who has a problem with kids, the noise they generate, the commotion, etc., should stay away from public transport and consider a private jet maybe?

Perhaps it is the selfish parents who should choose to let their kids to be kids. Kids are happiest at home and certainly not on longhaul flights.

I thank my parents for my happy childhood, but this was before the designer parents showing off their trophies at the Maldives.....

Kids are happiest at home and certainly not on longhaul flights.

So are adults. Doesn't keep us from flying now, does it?

I would ban the use of Business class for anyone below 12 (or 10, it doesn't matter), ...

I would ban old, smelly, old men, who believe they have bought the complete aircraft, from F and C. I one is very often disturbed by their snoring and their "other" noises.
In addition I would shoot all passengers, who are starting having "VIP" phone calls just after landing, to tell that they have landed and arriving at home in 30 minutes.

To be serious:
One has to know that children are not able and should not behave has adults. Nevertheless their parents should keep them calm, as good as possible. My personal experience is, that I was more often disturbed by adults than by children.

Anyone who has a problem with kids, the noise they generate, the commotion, etc., should stay away from public transport and consider a private jet maybe?



Let's see how that works.

Members of Group A are unable or unwilling to behave in a public place, specifically an aircraft, so the vast majority of travellers who belong to Group B and have no such behavioural problems should go to great additional trouble at vast expense to accommodate members of Group A.

In a word: Bollocks.

Let's see how that works.

Members of Group A are unable or unwilling to behave in a public place, specifically an aircraft, so the vast majority of travellers who belong to Group B and have no such behavioural problems should go to great additional trouble at vast expense to accommodate members of Group A.

In a word: Bollocks.

Thats not what Aster was saying. He is just saying that kids can be noisy. Infants and Toddlers will cry and scream. It is normal. Everyone should deal with it in any cabin. I am happy if I don't have a crying baby in the cabin but I will deal with it either if it is my own or if it is someone else's.

What you are talking about (and what the OP is talking about) is really the parents behaving badly, not the kids. A 3 yo can not take responsibility for his action, the parents should.

3 years and still wearing diapers? Seems indeed a problem child! At this age, you should at least have pull ups, which can be changed in the toilet. Actually, at this age, most children should be completely diaper-free and toilet trained!

On average most 5 year olds still wear nappies (or pull ups) during sleep time.

..Anyone who has a problem with kids, the noise they generate, the commotion, etc., should stay away from public transport and consider a private jet maybe?..
Do you make proportionally wise suggestions to women who get molested by drunks and sex offenders? "If you don't like to be grabbed, use a private jet"?
Of if you bring a rabid emotional support animal on board, do the other pax have to learn how to avoid being bitten?

In a sensible society those who threaten and harass others should be restrained and be subject to tougher social rules.

Teach your kids manners before they fly. If they cannot be taught manners, drug them. If the parents can neither teach them, nor drug them, nor are willing not to fly -> offload the gang.

I do agree that the kids per se are not really guilty in a legal sense but the parents should live up to their duty and held accountable and liable. After all, some 3 out of 4 parents manage to raise perfectly well behaving kids. And even those who occasionally misbehave to so in an original and entertaining manner, not like the flock described by the OP.

[QUOTE=aster;17684580]Kids are kids, they won't always sit in their place, and they won't always stay quiet. :)

Anyone who has a problem with kids, the noise they generate, the commotion, etc., should stay away from public transport and consider a private jet maybe?


Thats exactly my point. If you know your kids (or maybe, if others tell you the truth about the behavior of your kids), than the one who should behave as in a public place and not in the living room of your house, is the parent traveling with the kid. (I wrote you, but I meant a person in general).

Its the same behavior I would expect from a parent in regards to restaurants. Children are not allowed to enter some restaurants, and on the other hand, knowing that some restaurants are "family friendly", you can opt to go there or not.

Merry Christmas to everyone

Thats not what Aster was saying. He is just saying that kids can be noisy. .

Really?

"Anyone who has a problem with kids, the noise they generate, the commotion, etc., should stay away from public transport and consider a private jet maybe?"

We had such a little noise terrorist in F on a recent India - FRA flight. Accompanying Mom did nothing but encourage him to roam the whole cabin on the night flight.
When we were in the F bus, one Pax asked when she would fly back. She answered and then the general moaning was: "Good now we now which flight not to take ! "

I simply knew from the look of my mother's eyes .....


^^Thank you!!!

My mom would actually challenge me to misbehave!! "You go ahead and kick that seat one more time sweety...."


I knew the consequences. :D

It IS tiresome to repeatedly tell a child "Don't kick the seat in front of you." The alternative is to simply allow him to kick the seat but I am not so inconsiderate.

The alternative is not to fly. Sorry your life's so hard.

I don't care if the kid walks/runs up and down the aisles. As long as they aren't screaming, kicking other people's seats, relieving themselves in the cabin, or creating a trip hazard, I'm the one who has to decide if they're going to ruin my flight. However, while many kids are great, there are too many kids who do scream, kick, and are generally disgusting, and it is their parents' fault. If the parents aren't going to do anything about it, I think the airlines should. If the airline just once offloads an unruly family, I think they'll gain a lot of business from the rest of us who feel more confident that the airline will take care of problems.

kids can be noisy. Infants and Toddlers will cry and scream. It is normal. Everyone should deal with it in any cabin. I am happy if I don't have a crying baby in the cabin but I will deal with it either if it is my own or if it is someone else's.

Very well put, I agree entirely.

Kids are kids, they don't have an on/off switch and cannot be programmed like a robot. It's just the way things are. Life.

I too would rather not hear a toddler cry, but when I do I don't get thoughts of whinging about it to the airline in a vain attempt to have them ban kids in C. In fact I feel sorry for the parents and the tough journey they're having, and how lucky I am that I am flying solo on that trip.

Same goes for flying a bad C product on some airlines, the moment I get negative thoughts I instantly think how much worse things could be if I was flying in coach... and suddenly the inner-complaining stops. :)

If they cannot be taught manners, drug them.

Awesome comment! ^

Really?

Well, Aster just said that kids can be noisy. You talk about misbehaving kids. Those are two different things.
The best behaving 9 months old can be very noisy but there is not much one can do. In other words, even the best behaving infants and toddlers will generate more noise than an well behaving adult. Of course this is no excuse for bad behaviour which is within the parents or the child's control.

I would also love to kick some adults out of C and F who think that they need their ceiling lights on for reading rather than the reading light when Micro DUF is supposed to sleep next to them.

Point is, bad behaviour is the problem, no matter whether it comes from a child or an adult. But there is a certain level of kids noise which one just has to put up with when being on public transport.

Teach your kids manners before they fly. If they cannot be taught manners, drug them.

+1
Or just send them separately (http://www.fedex.com)

Do you make proportionally wise suggestions to women who get molested by drunks and sex offenders? "If you don't like to be grabbed, use a private jet"?
Of if you bring a rabid emotional support animal on board, do the other pax have to learn how to avoid being bitten?

Do you really want to compare a toddler that is being just a toddler... to a sex offender? :rolleyes:

Tell you what, the next time you see an unhappy infant the general reaction will be of a stewardess bringing him or her a plush toy.

Now if you see some deranged individual grab some random chick by the a$$ I reckon you'll see a handful of rather strong men dressed in blue come onboard with handcuffs, with the silly fool not only being offloaded from the plane but also facing many more problems to come, possibly including a compulsory stay in a rather bleak room with no tv, air-con, phone, internet access, mini-bar or room service.

And probably no refund for not making the flight either. :)

So, are you sure you still want to make comparisons here?

Perhaps, since they were relatives, the purser could have arranged for an open overhead bin?:)

It has been done before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbnRRGISLQE

It's just a joke, but I wish they would have left the camera running a bit longer.

You talk about misbehaving kids...

(sigh) whatever you want to read into it just go right ahead, I really don't care.
PLONK

The alternative is not to fly. Sorry your life's so hard.
Wow! The poster you are responding to had one of the best attitudes I have seen from a parent, essentially: "the one misbehavior my kid has is kicking the seat in front of him, so we pay for him a Business class seat so he cannot kick the seat in front of him"

She acknowledged a problem and explained her solution. Why is everyone being so rude?

For what it's worth, I have traveled with a toddler who kicked the seat in front of her by accident/absentmindedness or fidgeting, not intentional misbehavior. it's easy for a child to forget there is a person in front of them. Moving to business class is a great solution in the absence of other bad behavior.

(sigh) whatever you want to read into it just go right ahead, I really don't care.
PLONK

Happy holidays everybody...

Wow! The poster you are responding to had one of the best attitudes I have seen from a parent, essentially: "the one misbehavior my kid has is kicking the seat in front of him, so we pay for him a Business class seat so he cannot kick the seat in front of him"

She acknowledged a problem and explained her solution. Why is everyone being so rude?

For what it's worth, I have traveled with a toddler who kicked the seat in front of her by accident/absentmindedness or fidgeting, not intentional misbehavior. it's easy for a child to forget there is a person in front of them. Moving to business class is a great solution in the absence of other bad behavior.

Thanks for the post. I sincerely appreciate it after having been flamed upthread.

For what it's worth it's not only children who kick or grab the seats in front of them. That's why I also try and fly C when traveling without my son so that I can avoid other passengers (note: not just children) who feel the need to grab or kick my seat repeatedly.

On another note, I hope everybody is enjoying the holiday season.

FWIW, by "policing" I meant actively watching his legs so that he doesn't kick the seat absentmindedly. Not telling him not to kick after the fact, but to prevent the kicking in the first place.

Happy holidays everybody...

Um, and merry vacations to you too.

And another 'kids in F & C' thread finds its sad end. Thread closed.

Regards Oliver2002
Mod M&M