Travel Technology - Subsidy lock and brain lock

As I understand, the reason for subsidy lock is so that the provider, can recoup the cost that the provider incurs by giving you a subsidised phone.
I bought a no contract, unsubsidised T-mobile branded phone and found out that it was locked. I got it unlocked. It irks me to no end that T-mobile had the nerve to sell me a locked phone when it got full price. I returned the phones as I did not it. I found another phone to try out and requested that it be unlocked.
Two days later, T-mobile responded that you are allowed to make only one unlock request every 90 days.
I called T-mobile and the rep kept on parroting the same line "Sir no more than one request every 90 days. That's all there is to it", never mind the fact that T-mobile has the phone, which was deactivated even before the return was processed. She insisted that you cannot make more than one request every 90 days whether the request was acceded or not did not make a difference. She also said that every request I make now will push back my eligibility for unlock by another 90 days. She resisted escalating the call to a supervisor, "I am telling you what our policy is. No one can do anything. Supervisor will tell you the same thing." I became very irate. I told her, that I have heard her line. It did not make sense. So I would appreciate it if she would stop wasting her time and mine and get me a supervisor.

When the supervisor heard that the phone had been returned to T-mobile, he said "That changes every thing". He sent in the unlock request.

I did tell him that I dod not apprecaite this game played by T-mobile where it sells me a locked phone for full price. It's a deliberate attempt to cheat me. AT first he tried to rationalise it by saying this phone will not work with AT&T or Verizon. (Why is that relevant?) I told him there is a whole wide world out there beyond AT&T and Verizon. If I am paying full price, I expect it to be unlocked. I doubt it's going to make T-mobile mend its ways, but at least he agreed with me that it's tantamount to cheating.

T-Mobile (any company in the US, actually) knows that a very large percentage of their phones will be sold to those on contract at the "discounted" price. Therefore when they order phones, they will all be locked. They are not going to bother ordering a ton locked and a few unlocked. It's easier to just unlock those few who want/need the service. They're (all US cell companies pretty much) just working on their majority share of users which I suspect won't really ever need to unlock their phone ever and don't change phones like seasons. Therefore, the 90 days is pretty sensible 99% of the time.

Btw, have you checked the policy of other US cell phone companies as far as unlocking and using their phones on other networks? I think you'll find Tmo is actually one of the easiest to work with.

All of that said, if having an unlocked phone is really that important to you then you need to do your homework and make sure you buy properly. With the exception of my G1 when it was the only Android phone on the planet, all of my phones have been bought from outside of Tmo unlocked and used on their network since I first went that way back when the SE w810i came out.

I just buy my phones outside of the carriers (my VZ Android was an exception, but at the time VZ would still do one year contracts).

T-Mobile (any company in the US, actually) knows that a very large percentage of their phones will be sold to those on contract at the "discounted" price. Therefore when they order phones, they will all be locked. They are not going to bother ordering a ton locked and a few unlocked. It's easier to just unlock those few who want/need the service. They're (all US cell companies pretty much) just working on their majority share of users which I suspect won't really ever need to unlock their phone ever and don't change phones like seasons. Therefore, the 90 days is pretty sensible 99% of the time.

Btw, have you checked the policy of other US cell phone companies as far as unlocking and using their phones on other networks? I think you'll find Tmo is actually one of the easiest to work with.

All of that said, if having an unlocked phone is really that important to you then you need to do your homework and make sure you buy properly. With the exception of my G1 when it was the only Android phone on the planet, all of my phones have been bought from outside of Tmo unlocked and used on their network since I first went that way back when the SE w810i came out.
I understand your argument about why T_mobile does not have unlocked phones. SInce they have not subsidised my purchase, they have no justification for refusing to unlock it. That was the point I could not get across to the brain=locked representative.
I did do my home work. I bought a phone that I had the option of returning. I like to try a phone out before I buy it and I prefer to deal with brick and mortar store, even if they are third party vendors.

I don't think policy of other vendors is relevant to me. The issue is simple. If you don't subisidise a phone, you have no business refusing to unlock it.

I understand your argument about why T_mobile does not have unlocked phones. SInce they have not subsidised my purchase, they have no justification for refusing to unlock it. That was the point I could not get across to the brain=locked representative.
I did do my home work. I bought a phone that I had the option of returning. I like to try a phone out before I buy it and I prefer to deal with brick and mortar store, even if they are third party vendors.

I don't think policy of other vendors is relevant to me. The issue is simple. If you don't subisidise a phone, you have no business refusing to unlock it.

As mentioned above, this thought process doesn't apply to the vast majority of T-mobile users, so their customer service scripts probably overlook it.

Why would you unlock a phone before you decided you wanted to keep it?

Having dealt with AT&T, Verizon, and T-mobile unlocking, I will echo the sentiment that T-mobile is the easiest carrier to deal with when requesting unlock codes.

That was the point I could not get across to the brain=locked representative.At that point, you should have unlocked your hand from the phone and pressed redial.

I don't think policy of other vendors is relevant to me. The issue is simple. If you don't subisidise a phone, you have no business refusing to unlock it.

Really? Other vendors' policies aren't relevant to you? Some cell companies will just laugh at you for asking to have your phone unlocked. If you had done your homework you would know that T-mo has had a 90 day policy for a very long time. (At the very least, it has been six maybe seven years that I know of and it is probably longer.) You should be happy that they unlocked yet another phone for you. As has been stated several times here, if an unlocked phone is a really important feature to you, you should shop unlocked phones from 3rd parties. Unfortunately for most of us, that does mean buying over the internet but I've done it each and every time.

Until the US companies change the model, then that is just the way it is. And I'll give you a hint, T-mo tried to change the phone buying model a little bit as did Google. Neither of those programs are in operation anymore. Why? Because the US phone buying public want their "cheap" phones. It's the same with US air travel actually.

Really? Other vendors' policies aren't relevant to you? Some cell companies will just laugh at you for asking to have your phone unlocked. If you had done your homework you would know that T-mo has had a 90 day policy for a very long time. (At the very least, it has been six maybe seven years that I know of and it is probably longer.) You should be happy that they unlocked yet another phone for you. As has been stated several times here, if an unlocked phone is a really important feature to you, you should shop unlocked phones from 3rd parties. Unfortunately for most of us, that does mean buying over the internet but I've done it each and every time.

Until the US companies change the model, then that is just the way it is. And I'll give you a hint, T-mo tried to change the phone buying model a little bit as did Google. Neither of those programs are in operation anymore. Why? Because the US phone buying public want their "cheap" phones. It's the same with US air travel actually.
No they aren't. If some one laughs at me, I can't stop them from laughing at me. Laughing is not a confirmation of being right. It's called subsidy lock. Subsidy buys the provider the right to lock. No subsidy means no lock. It's simple. You might not agree with me, but the T-mobile supervisor did, in the end that is.

Why is it difficult for you to understand that what you think is best for you may not suit me. There is no god given rule that a phone, without any subsidy has to be locked.

No CONTRACT PHONE means no CONTRACT. What do you think NO contract means? I bought a NO CONTRACT phone from a third party vendor that sells T-mobile as well as other providers' phones. T-mobile might want me to use their service, every where, I don;t have to. I am a T-mobile customer and have had a family plan with them for 8 years now, and don't plan to cancel. I don't use T=mobile when I travel abroad.
The vast majority of people can't add or multiply, so they think getting a phone little money upfront and paying $10-50 every month for two years is cheaper than paying up front. Why do you think so many people are in deep water financially?
I am trying to get what works for me. What works for me is lower cost overall. I rarely use data service unless I am travelling overseas. So having a monthly data plan is not my way. As long as people continue to be able to borrow the current plan might continue to work.

Stop trying to convince me that what you do is right and what I am doing is wrong. We have different needs and different outlooks. If you are happy to pay unsubsidised price for a locked phone, I promise, I shan't complain.

As mentioned above, this thought process doesn't apply to the vast majority of T-mobile users, so their customer service scripts probably overlook it.

Why would you unlock a phone before you decided you wanted to keep it?

Having dealt with AT&T, Verizon, and T-mobile unlocking, I will echo the sentiment that T-mobile is the easiest carrier to deal with when requesting unlock codes.

Right. The vast majority for consumers are happy as long as they bleed slowly.
I am a log standing T-mobile customer with a family plan. I pay $80 a month for a family plan that includes unlimited texting on all the four phones with more talk time than I can use.
I have no use of data plan unless I am travelling abroad.
I want to have the phone unlocked as I have to travel abroad.
I have been due for an upgrade for about six months, but none of the upgrade prices and plans suit me. I am not going to pay $10 or $30 amonth for two years for a plan I have no need for.

I am not comparing T-mobile with Verizon and AT&T, simply stating that refusing to unlock an unsubsidised phone is stealing. In the end, it turns out the line parroted by the rep was wrong that I cannot have this phone locked. BY the end of the conversation, the supervisor agreed with me that it's right for me to expect to have the phone unlocked as long as I paid the FULL unsubsidised price.

I don't understand why some people are having such a great difficulty understanding this.

Chill dude. Just explaining it the way the US companies see it and run it. The way things work here in the US is that if you don't like how things are done, you vote with your wallet. Unfortunately though as I'm trying to point out to you, you won't find the grass greener anywhere else in the US. Judging by the threads you've started today, seems like you want everything to work your way but that just isn't how life works. You just have to learn how the companies work and how to work around it. The companies do the same thing when dealing with governments. That's just life.

No they aren't. If some one laughs at me, I can't stop them from laughing at me. Laughing is not a confirmation of being right. It's called subsidy lock. Subsidy buys the provider the right to lock. No subsidy means no lock. It's simple. You might not agree with me, but the T-mobile supervisor did, in the end that is.

Why is it difficult for you to understand that what you think is best for you may not suit me. There is no god given rule that a phone, without any subsidy has to be locked.

No CONTRACT PHONE means no CONTRACT. What do you think NO contract means? I bought a NO CONTRACT phone from a third party vendor that sells T-mobile as well as other providers' phones. T-mobile might want me to use their service, every where, I don;t have to. I am a T-mobile customer and have had a family plan with them for 8 years now, and don't plan to cancel. I don't use T=mobile when I travel abroad.
The vast majority of people can't add or multiply, so they think getting a phone little money upfront and paying $10-50 every month for two years is cheaper than paying up front. Why do you think so many people are in deep water financially?
I am trying to get what works for me. What works for me is lower cost overall. I rarely use data service unless I am travelling overseas. So having a monthly data plan is not my way. As long as people continue to be able to borrow the current plan might continue to work.

Stop trying to convince me that what you do is right and what I am doing is wrong. We have different needs and different outlooks. If you are happy to pay unsubsidised price for a locked phone, I promise, I shan't complain.

Chill dude. Just explaining it the way the US companies see it and run it. The way things work here in the US is that if you don't like how things are done, you vote with your wallet. Unfortunately though as I'm trying to point out to you, you won't find the grass greener anywhere else in the US. Judging by the threads you've started today, seems like you want everything to work your way but that just isn't how life works. You just have to learn how the companies work and how to work around it. The companies do the same thing when dealing with governments. That's just life.

There is nothing to explain. I have probalby dealt with U.S> companies longer than you have been alive. So don;t assume that I don;t know how U.S. Companies work. How old are you BTW?

The point is that you don't give up. The company pushes, you push too. You are right, that the grass is not greener, but then why do you suiggest walking away? Your suggestions are logically inconsistent.

Instead of telling me to chill, how about if you tell me whether you would be happy to have a locked phone if you paid full price. At least I got what i wanted. I was hoping it would benefit some people here, but on the contrary, I am being advised by a novice here. :D

There is nothing to explain. I have probalby dealt with U.S> companies longer than you have been alive. So don;t assume that I don;t know how U.S. Companies work. How old are you BTW?

The point is that you don't give up. The company pushes, you push too. You are right, that the grass is not greener, but then why do you suiggest walking away? Your suggestions are logically inconsistent.

Instead of telling me to chill, how about if you tell me whether you would be happy to have a locked phone if you paid full price. At least I got what i wanted. I was hoping it would benefit some people here, but on the contrary, I am being advised by a novice here. :D

Ok, if you say so. Sounds like someone is having a DYKWIA moment here.

You ask how old I am yet you already assumed (you know what they say about that) that you're older than I am and don't state how old you are. Interesting. Then again since kids these days root phones and write programs and understand most of the tech as soon as it hits their hands, I'm not really sure what your point is.

My point is, I don't buy carrier branded phones at full price. If I'm buying a phone at full price, it is from somewhere else so I don't have to deal with the carrier and their reps when I want to do something to my phone. If you buy something from the carrier than you just need to realize that you will have to deal with stuff like that happening. Can't accept it, like I said, walk. I'm 38 and I know this. If you're older than I am and think you know how US companies work, why don't you?

Oh, and nice racial assumption on your part too in the travel buzz forum. Wow! You do assume a lot, don't you?

Ok, if you say so. Sounds like someone is having a DYKWIA moment here.

You ask how old I am yet you already assumed (you know what they say about that) that you're older than I am and don't state how old you are. Interesting. Then again since kids these days root phones and write programs and understand most of the tech as soon as it hits their hands, I'm not really sure what your point is.

My point is, I don't buy carrier branded phones at full price. If I'm buying a phone at full price, it is from somewhere else so I don't have to deal with the carrier and their reps when I want to do something to my phone. If you buy something from the carrier than you just need to realize that you will have to deal with stuff like that happening. Can't accept it, like I said, walk. I'm 38 and I know this. If you're older than I am and think you know how US companies work, why don't you?

Oh, and nice racial assumption on your part too in the travel buzz forum. Wow! You do assume a lot, don't you?

What does DYKWIA has got to do with it? You are the one who implied I did not know how U.S. businesses work and assumed that it needed to be explained to me, while you are the one missing the point that the company is screwing you if they don't unlock a no contract phone on which you received no subsidy. I have to deal witht he carrier, but I don't have to take everything they might want to give to me. And I shown you you can get what you want, because the company knows they were screwing you. It's smart to call their bluff of "policy" and stupid to roll over and take it.

There is a lesson in this for every one.

I am stunned at your your suggestion that I made a racial assumption. However, if you point to a racial assumption, please do point it out to me, and I will be happy to remove that with apologies.

You are the one making assumptions about what I do or do not know. If you don't buy branded phones at full price, that's your way of doing things. If I found a non branded phone I would buy one too. In this case, the best price for a non contract was a branded phone. Why do you think your solution meets my needs? Your way of buying a phone isn't wrong, neither is mine. There is no cause for you to infer that I don;t know how carriers work.

Will you be happy if you paid full price for a NO contract phone? Why are you so intent on telling me that my approach was wrong or not as good as yours, when I did get the result I wanted. Are you unhappy about that? You could learn something from this. Corporation tries to bully you, or an ignorant customer service rep gives you hard time, you don't give up. What's wrong with expecting value for my money?
Just because a carrier tries to bully me doesn't mean I have to take it. I have shown you you don;t have to be bullied. But if you like bendnig over for one or more carrier, be my guest.
Dude: Please stop making veiled attacks on me. You have twice made false statements about me.

Not at all. AT&T does not have that silly policy of only 1 unlock code for every 90 days. You can unlock request and receive unlock codes for 10 phones in one day if you want. As long as the account is in active status. Heck! The phone does not even need to be the current phone on the account.


Btw, have you checked the policy of other US cell phone companies as far as unlocking and using their phones on other networks? I think you'll find Tmo is actually one of the easiest to work with.

Chill dude. Just explaining it the way the US companies see it and run it. The way things work here in the US is that if you don't like how things are done, you vote with your wallet. Unfortunately though as I'm trying to point out to you, you won't find the grass greener anywhere else in the US. Judging by the threads you've started today, seems like you want everything to work your way but that just isn't how life works. You just have to learn how the companies work and how to work around it. The companies do the same thing when dealing with governments. That's just life.

^^

No. I use both carriers. See my other response. With AT&T it's simple. The account is in good standing, they will give out the unlock code, regardless of when it was you last requested one.


Having dealt with AT&T, Verizon, and T-mobile unlocking, I will echo the sentiment that T-mobile is the easiest carrier to deal with when requesting unlock codes.

Not at all. AT&T does not have that silly policy of only 1 unlock code for every 90 days. You can unlock request and receive unlock codes for 10 phones in one day if you want. As long as the account is in active status. Heck! The phone does not even need to be the current phone on the account.

Ah! So some people have a wild imagination. They imagine things that don;t happen. Thanks for responding. I did not know how AT&T handled unlocking. So this guy is just making things up, not just about policies oof other providers but also other things. That's very enlightening.

Apparently there is more than one case of brain-lock here. Unbelievable. It's turning into OMNI here.

^^
:td::td:
Anything to say about no contract phones? Anything about unlocking? Anything at all about whether a non contract should be unlocked if there is no subsidy involved? No interest in the topic I suppose. @:-)
Silence? I thought as much. You came to cheerlead an attack. Have fun. :D

Very rare moderator note; quit the personal attacks, and don't report people being mean to you if you yourself can't behave in a thread.

Thanks :)

Very rare moderator note; quit the personal attacks, and don't report people being mean to you if you yourself can't behave in a thread.

Thanks :)

^^

Very rare moderator note; quit the personal attacks, and don't report people being mean to you if you yourself can't behave in a thread.

Thanks :)

And thank you


Dude: Please stop making veiled attacks on me. You have twice made false statements about me.

I think we'll just let your actions speak for themselves and leave it at that:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1292336-clueless-people-lounges.html

Duplicate

Btw, have you checked the policy of other US cell phone companies as far as unlocking and using their phones on other networks? I think you'll find Tmo is actually one of the easiest to work with.


Not at all. AT&T does not have that silly policy of only 1 unlock code for every 90 days. You can unlock request and receive unlock codes for 10 phones in one day if you want. As long as the account is in active status. Heck! The phone does not even need to be the current phone on the account.


Having dealt with AT&T, Verizon, and T-mobile unlocking, I will echo the sentiment that T-mobile is the easiest carrier to deal with when requesting unlock codes.

No. I use both carriers. See my other response. With AT&T it's simple. The account is in good standing, they will give out the unlock code, regardless of when it was you last requested one.
Thanks. It's clear the experience is quite varied. Having ten phones unlocked vs other claims about the normal practice T-mobile's practice regarding unlocking and that or other providers.

And thank you



I think we'll just let your actions speak for themselves and leave it at that:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1292336-clueless-people-lounges.html

Indeed they do. Would you please point out what it is that you take such offense to something I said in another thread? What is it you think was a racial assumption or a slur. I do not think I made any racial slurs. As I stated before, if you point out what you are reffering to, I will remove it.
Now lets get back to the meat of the issue.
You have commented on many topics, without directly addressing the meat.

What do you say to the contradiction between your view/claim and that of mrcamp. Still think your view is the exclusive reality? Is your solution universal and the only solution, and my expectation and approach was wrong?
For the benefit of those who might be in a similar position as I was and for those who think they know, but don't, Here are some other important factors why suggestions such as buying T-mobile branded phone is in fact a better idea. I had done my homework well. I didn't think I had to write a thesis on requirements analysis and publish them here. The suggestion that I did not do my homework is simply neither true, nor really relevant the mean of the issue, which is having a no contract phone unlocked and shows how under-informed or misinformed such an advice is in this case.
T-mobile beacuse of 3G band it uses, creates complications when it comes to buying unlocked phones. Different versions of the same model are made. Ypou could end up getting a phoen that would not work wih T-mbile's 3G services, which is not a big disadvantage as I don't use data services in the U.S., but would like to reserve the ability for the future. There is conflicting information about phones technical specs. GSMarena does a poor job of giving technical specifications. GSMarena lists them as for the phone I got.
HSDPA 900 / 2100 ;
HSDPA 850 / 1900 or
HSDPA 2100 (Australia)
While Phonearena gives the specs
as
UMTS 900, 2100 MHz
Not even a mention of the AWS band (1700/2100) used by T-mobile. I have even asked such questions here if 1700/2100 meant only AWS or AWS and IMT?
T-mobile's website gives the specs as
MHz;UMTS: Band I (2100);UMTS: Band IV (1700/2100)
As far as can remember T-mobile did not give such specific and clear specs. Usually one sees just listing oif frequency bands: 1700/2100., which leaves one wondering whether it worksks in just AWS or in both AWS and IMT. I wonder, if it's a consequence of people like me who repeatedly called T-mobile seeking more specific information. ON several attempts I made to seek spoecific technical information about the phone(s) I had purchased Tmobile Tech people were clueless. Manufacturers tech support also did not have specific answers, which varied.
"Yes It's GSM it works all over the world"
When it was explained that I was seeking information about 3G, not about GSM,
"No it would work only with T-mobile services"
"Yes it Would work all over the world with most 3G services"

I did do my homework, better than many who have given incomplete or wrong advice.
As there are different versions of WIldfire S floating around, the only way I could be sure that it work in AWS (1700/2100) band and IMT (2100) band was if I bought it from T-mobile.

^^

Oh please. I want what I want because I want what I paid for. You guys keep avoiding the question I have asked before. Would you be happy if a provider refused to unlock the phone for which you received no subsidy and you paid the no contract price. ?

There is nothing wrong with wanting value for money. I would give my customers what I asked for.
But you guys are trying to justify bad corporate behaviour

by citing unsubstantiated claims of industry-wide practice, proven false by another poster,
attributing my predicament to lack of due diligence on my part in doing my home work,
or expecting something that is not reasonable.

Why? Think about it guys. .

I had zero problems finding the exact specs of your phone. It took me about ten seconds. In cases where there are different versions of a phone made and one is specifically targeted to T-mo's network, then there is a very high chance that it will only be available through T-mo channels which means you will have to deal with all that entails. Which means we're back to where I've always been, either deal with it, look for another phone or just walk completely. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that. (And yes, dealing with good and bad reps of any company is part of that. In which case you need to have already done your homework.) It also means that if you want to know the specs of that particular version, you have to search for that particular version. There's doing homework and then there's doing your homework right. ;)

As far as mrcamp's experience with mine and gfunkdave's, maybe AT&T has turned over a new leaf recently or maybe mrcamp just got lucky like you just seem to be unlucky. (Again, I'll let all of the various complaining threads you started yesterday stand as testament to that statement.) I can tell you that if AT&T has gotten better at unlocking phones, this is due to T-mo's long standing procedures twisting their arm to do so. AT&T is a very curmudgeonly company. (Which is why any of us under T-mo right now who used to have AT&T are completely against this merger. We do not want to go back to that.) AT&T used to not even like the mention of unlocking phones. I guarantee you that if we took collective stories of phone unlocking experiences, what gfunkdave and I have said would stand.

And to the racial assumption, if you can't pick that statement out... well, let's just say from what I've seen here and in that thread, I wish you best of luck in life. You'll need it.

Oh please. I want what I want because I want what I paid for. You guys keep avoiding the question I have asked before. Would you be happy if a provider refused to unlock the phone for which you received no subsidy and you paid the no contract price. ?

There is nothing wrong with wanting value for money. I would give my customers what I asked for.
But you guys are trying to justify bad corporate behaviour

by citing unsubstantiated claims of industry-wide practice, proven false by another poster,
attributing my predicament to lack of due diligence on my part in doing my home work,
or expecting something that is not reasonable.

Why? Think about it guys. .

We've been very reasonable. Which means if we look around the bus to find the unreasonable person.....

May be the moderators can bring an end to this thread, because it has derailed somewhat.

As for AT&T unlocking policy, it has always been that way as far as I can recollect. At least since 2005 that I have been with them. There is definitely no limit on the number of unlock requests that can be made within a certain time period. Even the first batch of world phones they were selling back then, the Moto V400 were sold unlocked.

And with that final post, we'll say goodbye to this thread. Several of you may receive a PM from me with some guidance. Pretty sure this is the the first (non spammer) thread I've had to close this year, so congratulations on that :(