Hilton HHonors - Hilton Devaluation and Deflating Point Values

Several Hilton apologists have claimed that the changes were appropriate in light of the CNTU and other generous promotions. Well, if its Hilton's generosity that caused the problem, why doesn't Hilton simply reduce its points payouts on a going forward basis. Surely Hilton is not so ethically challenged that they were paying out those points with the knowledge that the advertised redemption levels soon would be changed? If they only reduce their payouts on a going forward basis, all of their customers who accumulated points can use those points as they expected to do and Hilton can reduce its costs in the future.

Well said.

If Hilton stopped giving as many points then a different (but overlapping) set of folks would be screaming and yelling. The only solution to the "They changed something about the program and it's so unfair to me because _____________" problem is not to change the program. We all know that that is not going to happen.

Programs change. Use your points. Hoarding causes devaluation, just like stuffing dollar bills into your mattress.

There's a six month warning of the pending changes, plenty of time to schedule a trip during the following *year*. That's 18 months, and that's what I call fair.

There wasn't any such warning that I know of for the air/hotel awards that are now gone completely (as of 12/31/2002) and I don't hear anyone complaining about that at all.

[This message has been edited by xyzzy (edited 01-14-2003).]

I was just thinking about the devaluation of the Hilton program in the past 12 months and it sure leaves one scratching their head. What on earth is the business strategy of this company?

First we start off with give everyone that ask for it a Gold membership and then give them 50,000 bonus points for staying 4 times in 3 months. Now that you have attracted them as a loyal customer.

Raise the award stay from 100,000 to 175,000

Eliminate the Delta to Hilton Airmiles transfers.

Eliminate the United to Hilton Airmiles transfers with one days notice.

Eliminate on-line booking bonuses.

Eliminate the Member get Member bonus without telling anyone, but continue to let members sign people up when they specifically state that they are registering them under the program.

Create another tier of awards properties and raise the number of points for a free nights stay in many of the properties.

Have I missed any?

Anyone want to venture a guess as to what on earth the strategy could possibly be?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Superd1:
Anyone want to venture a guess as to what on earth the strategy could possibly be? </font>

I've got it -- They're learning from CO. HH rooms are too valuable to give away for free!

You misssed a big one, HGVC members incur a %50 increase in required points to trade into Hilton HHonors points.

This effectively means that one must buy another timeshare at $5,000 plus incur $600/month annual maintainance fees to get the same amount of vacation.

OR

Owners can stay at any level 2 property for 6 nights. So one must either go down 3 property classes and stay one of only a few Hampton Inns AND lose a vacation day.

Now THAT is devaluation!

The 250 Airline partner bonus is gone and the 4,000 per quarter threshold bonus is gone. The mail in your upgrades for a 1,000 point bonus is gone, The 10,000 and 20,000 discount coupons are gone, The profile bonus gone, the past double Car Partner Bonus from 250 to 500 points gone, then fall and summer bonuses where you get double stay points, the often double miles promotion have not seen one in a long time.

By-far-and-away, the reason I stay at Hiltons is to earn points for family vacations. I just stayed at a no-name hotel for a company sponsored event where I earned nothing. It just about killed me. I did not want to be there for nothing.

As the Hilton moves toward devaluation, I become less likely to stay with them. Staying at a Hilton now is becoming more like earning nothing.

Keep in mind I'm a Diamond who stays mostly at Hiltons and Dtrees. Why slap the hand that feeds you?

profile update bonuses were 1,000 per update (max 2 per qtr) reduced to 500 per update (max 2 per qtr) and now, NONE!

I thought a GLON is 150,000 and not 175,000 from later this year?

Keep in mind that the Hawaii awards are the ones going from 100k to 175k while GLONP (Premium) are going from 150k to 175k. However, Hawaii Hiltons are considered Premium hotels and by right should have been at 150k. HHonors was only offering a special to try to spur interest in Hawaii by offering these at 100k. So one can view this as the award only going from 150k to 175k. Sure it is not a trivial amount, but other rewards programs have been increasing their levels in the past few years. I have watched Intercontinental raise theirs in 2001 and 2002 (no increase yet in 2003, keeping my fingers crossed).

I am still pleased with the new VIP award levels. Definitely a discount from the non-VIP levels. If you all want to leave because Hilton must become more competitive in these trying times, more power to you. Maybe upgrades will become more prevalent once you decide to switch and my Diamond status will be more valuable to me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by DreamCowboy:
If you all want to leave because Hilton must become more competitive in these trying times, more power to you. Maybe upgrades will become more prevalent once you decide to switch and my Diamond status will be more valuable to me.</font>


My point is why do all kinds of things that cause a glut of points and member privelages and then devalue or eliminate everything you do that generates new business. Getting referrals seems like a good way to build a business. Maybe 1,000 points is a little rich so cut it back to 500 but don't make it so there is NO incentive to refer new members.

Maybe some of the franchises will drop out because being affiliated with the Hilton brand doesn't produce more business and then your Diamond status will be even less valuable to you.
Something to think about.

I understood the devaluation to mean that every VIP award that was 100K will be 175K. Are you saying places like Sorrento will go from 100K to only 150K? Even that change of 50K is HUGE. Its also irresponsible--if there are too many points, stop awarding points so liberally rather than devalue what you have alread given.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PaulGQ:
You misssed a big one, HGVC members incur a %50 increase in required points to trade into Hilton HHonors points.</font>


I'm a HGVC owner as well and I missed that one totally.

Also forgot about the elimination of the update bonus.

So any one want to guess what the next thing to go will be?

I predict the end of the the double dip will be next. The recent promotion allowing people to get 50% more points instead of airmiles looks very much like they are testing the water to see if they can safely eliminate the 500 per stay airmiles.

I realize that everyone in the travel industry is under pressure. This is the time for a bold company to do things that steals market share and cements long term loyalty. It wouldn't take much for one of Hilton's competitors to steal a big share of their business.
All they need to do is comp existing Gold and Diamond members with comparable status and offer a few other perks and they won't be able to handle the flood of new members signing up. This is a very dangerous path that Hilton is negotiating.

I appreciate the intelligent discourse on a subject that is close to my heart, accumulation of HHonor points. I fear that Hilton's rush to devalue its loyalty program by simultaneously increasing the points necessary to claim an award while increasing the pool of claimants will lead to unintended consequences; or as my 14 year old son might say "will come back and bite them in the a_ _."

For me and many other road warriors, HHonors benefits differentiated Hilton from other business hotels, it was "value added." When we accumulated bonuses for 4 quarterly stays; airline flights; booking online; updating our profiles; converting UA miles to points, . . ., I gladly drove an extra 10 to 15 minutes to stay at Hilton properties, bypassing closer Sheridans, Merriots, Hyatts, etc. just to get my points and to ensure Diamond status for the following year.

The recent dimunition of benefits has changed where I stay, when traveling on business its now convenient location, location and location. It is simply not worth my time to drive the extra distance for devalued HHonors points. The result, this quarter I have 7 Hilton nights,13 Starwood nights and 8 Hyatt nights; last year I had 22, 3, and 1 respectively. Instead of concentrating on just Diamond, I expect to achieve elite status in the other programs as well.

I understand the challenges presented by current economic conditions. However, Hilton's drastic HHonors program changes are alienating those who they can least afford to lose, the business traveler.

Every chain has its problems with devaluation so from hiltons perspective, it doesn't really hurt them if they raise award thresholds. Marriott had there big increase two years ago, SPG this year, Hilton now.. I can't really say much about Hyatt since I am not one who stays at many of them.

I mean one chain is not any better than another, sure one has no black outs, but less to choose from, one has more to choose from but is over priced (awards), one has the most selections from low end, to long term to high end, but is hard to achieve elite.. I mean they all have pluses and minus'

Thanks to superd1 for starting this thread ... I think it leads to some really interesting ideas coming up, and the discussion has been great.

Lisadiamond makes a great point -- I think this devaluation is going to come back and bite Hilton. Hard. It's tough to swallow when things like the quarterly profile update are taken away. But it's even harder -- and really instills some bitterness and anger -- when they're taken away without any notice, as many of the posts have talked about.

These ARE tough economic times, and that's why businesses more than ever have to fight harder for the fewer dollars that are in consumers' and business travelers' pockets. Pulling the plug virtually at once on numerous bonuses that have become so dear to so many is an awful risk. I don't know if it's the smartest thing to do at such a vulnerable time.

I agree that all competitors would have to do is make a rather minimal effort to snag a slew of frequent travelers. That's not good news for any HHonors devotee!

Another devaluation I noticed just a few days ago: after eliminating the hotel/air awards with less than 30 days notice last December, HHonors has increased the required points for most air awards (e.g., most airlines now require 200,000 HHonors points for a R/T lower 48 - Europe), effective June 1st.

[This message has been edited by honu (edited 03-27-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Superd1:
Anyone want to venture a guess as to what on earth the strategy could possibly be? </font>To survive a quite serious economic downturn.

I don't like the changes any more than the rest of you, but I suspect the largesse we enjoyed over the past years was a bit of 90's dot com excess. That's what's biting us (and Hilton) in the a**.

And it's not like SPG or anyone else is suddenly running a better program. From what I understand, SPG had a similar (and some feel more onerous) devaluation scheme.

If things continue to play out the way they are now, the early 21st century will be defined by American isolationism, paranoia, and military action. This doesn't bode well for the travel industry, and the uncertainty of these hard times means executives at Hilton and other companies need to plan accordingly.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Whatever the reason for the devaluation, one result is that this Diamond just booked a nice little Best Western for a stay next month instead of a nearby Hilton property that costs a lot more. I'm willing to pay more if I'm getting something for it. But if not...

[This message has been edited by Westcoaster (edited 03-28-2003).]

Here's a site I just found that does a head to head comparison of hotel/air and other programs along with ratings. Very interesting.

http://www.webflyer.com/programs/head2head/

------------------
"A day without Points/Miles is like a day without SUNSHINE"

Yes there has been devaluation. However, no more than with other air and hotel programs.

I'm not leaving HHonors. With the current 50% bonus instead of miles, diamond bonus, and 3 points per dollar at Hiltons on HHonors Visa, I am getting 23 points per dollar spent. If you value at a penny a point, that is 23% return on laundering of my company's money (since most paid travel is business travel). Even at a half cent per point that is still 11.5%.

Anyone who uses HHonors points for non-hilton rewards is already throwing away a large percent of their value. Using points for air travel has always been unwise, just more so now.

I will requalify for Diamond by early May. If someone can find a good reason for me to start participating in a second program, I am all ears.

marc

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Westcoaster:
Whatever the reason for the devaluation, one result is that this Diamond just booked a nice little Best Western for a stay next month instead of a nearby Hilton property that costs a lot more. I'm willing to pay more if I'm getting something for it. But if not...

[This message has been edited by Westcoaster (edited 03-28-2003).]</font>

AMEN!
No reason to be overly loyal anymore.

First off, Marq, I generally agree with you. For clarification, the Visa earns 2 pts/$, and Amex 3 pts/$ (although Amex is currently running another double points promo http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif.

I do have to take issue with one remark you made:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Marq:
Using points for air travel has always been unwise, just more so now.</font>IME, that simply is not true, at least not in the blanket way you state it, and I have posted extensively about my use of HHonors air rewards and the metrics I use to value usage.

That said, it's true they're generally not as good as pure FF rewards, but some of them are quite good values when you compare HHonors redemption to HHonors redemption. In particular, I'd refer poeple to the companion reward.

But since I don't want to side track the discussion here any further, I'd suggest if anyone is interested to simply do a search and post any questions in another thread. Or feel free to e-mail me and I'll do my best to answer any questions you may have.

Thanks for the head2head link.

Visa is 3 points per dollar when used at Hilton properties.

I guess I was too flippant about the air rewards. I have not researched them. I always use airmiles for air rewards and hotel points for hotel rewards to maximize their relatiive value realizing that this may not maximize their actual value.

marc

Great posts, but some of the items mentioned are laughable. What does handing out 1000 points to change a profile have to do with anything in the real (or travel) world? I mean, why would one expect to be rewarded for changing their profile?

Whatever Rut Dog said, I agree.

Lisadiamond.....you, me and 10,000 others share the same pattern for YTD stays with Hyatt versus Hilton. I'm not staying in more Hyatts because Hilton is changing their program, are you?

Where I stay is based on trying to find the best value. It's hard for me to stray from the hotels that reward for loyalty, but the best value might be found at a Best Western.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hedoman:

Lisadiamond.....you, me and 10,000 others share the same pattern for YTD stays with Hyatt versus Hilton. I'm not staying in more Hyatts because Hilton is changing their program, are you?

Yes and yes. Hedoman, you're absolutely right, it is all about value. I was attracted to Hilton properties because of the value of HHonors rewards, when the value evaporated so did the number of my stays. Its not personal, but a business decision. If Hilton expects my business in these difficult economic times, they must remain competitive and need to add value (real HHonors benefits), not diminish the value of the services they provide. Otherwise, its not worth the often extra time, effort and expense, and from the occupancy rates of the last three Hiltons I've stayed at not worth the time of many other business travelers, to stay at Hilton properties. Hence, my stays at Hyatts, Marriotts, Starwood and even Best Western properties have increased, and will continue to increase, until Hilton again makes it worthwhile (by adding value)to staying at their hotels. Once more, nothing personal but business.

[This message has been edited by lisadiamond (edited 03-28-2003).]

I thought it might be helpful to throw some numbers at this discussion of devaluation. Using BlondeBomber's spreadsheet, I analyzed the 2,291 properties he had both pre 6/1 and post 6/1 categories for.

This analysis shows the distribution of properties across the old and new categories, and compares how many points it takes to get a single night reward. The comparison does not consider the loss of the multi night discount, which would drive the numbers up a bit.

It also obviously does not consider the VIP award hyper inflation, and the loss of other accruing benefits. If you find the analysis lacking without those factors, then I encourage you to download the sreadsheet and present your own alternative perspective.

Total Properties 2291
================================================== ==============
Pre-6/1/03 After 6/1/03
Category # % Cat. # %
Opportunity 188 8% 1 170 7%
Executive 1511 66% 2 1225 53%
Select 384 17% 3 578 25%
Classic 139 6% 4 218 10%
Premium 69 3% 5 61 3%
6 39 2%

================================================== ==============
Mean pts/1 night 21076 22211
Median pts/1 night 20000 20000IMHO what these numbers show is a less dramatic picture than I think many people are painting. Using the mean per one night, the bottom line is Inflation 5.4%, devaluation 5.1% (devaluation calculated off a basis value of $0.0075 per point).

[I'll try to follow up later with a commentary on the VIP awards, and perhaps a more nuanced way of looking at it rather than just 17%, 50%, & 75% inflation.]

[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 03-28-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower:
(I)f there are too many points, stop awarding points so liberally rather than devalue what you have alread given.</font>

But points selling is a large source of income for these companies, which is why they do it.

"In the beginning" all of these programs were more of a reward-type for business travellers who spent big bucks flying First Class and staying in suites on business trips to use them to experience the same on their occasional leisure trips on their own dime.

However, as businesses tightened travel spending, people started flying Coach and staying in regular rooms. Airlines and hotels saw their revenue shrinking as more and more seats and rooms are filled with people who spend a lot less than they did, as well as leisure travellers who spend as little as possible.

At that point, these programs ceased being a reward program and became a loyalty program - fly Coach four times and get upgraded to First once. Or spend four nights in a King room and you can get one night in a junior suite. They also became a source of revenue, selling miles and points to credit card companies, retailers, and service providers.

So... We can all go back to always spending $400 a night on a suite when we travel and $4000 a trip to fly in First and be rewarded for that revenue, or enjoy $50 hotel rooms and $200 flights and have to gather a ton of points to enjoy better accomodations.

After chatting with an offduty DT general manager over a couple of beers I am convinced that lisadiamond's analysis is on the mark. I learned that to date 1Q stays at Hiltons in the southeast are down 15% According to the GM its because individual one and two night bookings, generally profitable biz traveler stays, are way down. Conventions, trade shows etc remain the same. At the same time the Atlanta T&C Bureau claims hotel occupancy rates are up. Why the disparity? The GM believes that the changes to the Honors program by Hilton corporate are a big reason. So not only are Honors members hurt by the changes, the individual hotels are also affected. The bottom line, its not about dimunition of benefits, point valuation or devaluation or point inflation or deflation, or anything else I've read about on this Board, its about customer perception. When Honors mmebers feel unappreciated they vote with their feet and stay elsewhere.

While I do not disagree with using the term "devaluation", I think another, perhaps clearer way to look at it, is as a price increase (in points).

Surely when occupancy is down, you don't increase your prices (except Disneyland). When it comes to dollars, most of us know, the prices for rooms are heavly discounted.

So why is the price in points going up? I guess that they can do this as our "money" (points) are already tied to staying with them and they can therefore get away with it.

Seem like, if anything, it should cost less points for a room in todays soft market. SO, I believe that we are being double dipped in reverse. The points for a room are going up while the economic value of the room is going down!!!!!!!!!

I couldn't begin to add anything here that hasn't already been said in all of the above.
Hilton last year still had my overall vote of confidence.
I suppose they have more then enough business at this point.
Or the faith that this is going to produce better results in the long run
While I admire much of what Hilton has to offer I am clearly feeling the pull of the competition.
My feet and luggage seem to be in other branded properties as of late
All as a result of the above mentioned changes combined with the lack of the former good old double mile promos and points
With that said that doesn't mean not staying at Hilton just a lot less.
Hilton has some great product,choices and exceptional value in certain markets
Happy Travels All


------------------
AA & Starwood,Marriott Platinum
Hyatt, Hilton Diamond
Swissotel Club Gold
U/A 1k

I agree! I'm still booking Hilton properties, even with the devaluation. However, I have been finding some weird ways at getting HUGE points lately:

- MyPoints 3000points (2000 from the Amtrak 2450 promo and so far I've found 350 Mypoints for free and am waiting for that last 1000 to bump to Hilton
- Weird surveys have popped up, thanks to FT.
2500 here, 5000 there
- Visa's 10000 points for signup and use
- 10000 points from Delta's stoppage. I had 7000 miles in Delta for 11 years, and was lucky to hear of the stoppage in the knick of time.
- 2500 AGNT. Waiting for that one!
- And naturally the regular points 25% bonus with Gold, etc, etc.,etc.

Starwoods temped me with the 50,000 points for 5 stays in Asia, however I found I could just bump 50,000 airline miles to Starwoods for 1-1 mile transfer and then save $500 - $700 there.

So yes, Hilton is still getting my bookings and some of my Hilton hotels have lowered their rates.....a little. Hopefully will be back to what it was in January soon.

Unknown if I will make the "Fast Track to Diamond" offer by June 14th.

SHADO

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">

Starwoods temped me with the 50,000 points for 5 stays in Asia, however I found I could just bump 50,000 airline miles to Starwoods for 1-1 mile transfer and then save $500 - $700 there.


SHADO[/B]</font>

Not sure what you mean in the above sentence? You can't transfer airline miles to Starwood, if that's what you mean by "bump". On the other hand, 50K Starwood points would transfer to most airline FF accounts as 60K miles.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by honu:
Not sure what you mean in the above sentence? You can't transfer airline miles to Starwood, if that's what you mean by "bump". On the other hand, 50K Starwood points would transfer to most airline FF accounts as 60K miles.
</font>

Oops, yes you are right. My error. I'm still finding my fingers on the computer booking Hilton reservations, even with the devaluation.

SeaDog, I have no problem with the sponsors selling miles, since they price the miles themselves and hopefully get a fair price. The problem I have is over-liberal bonuses such as CNTU. You are defending something I didnt' attack.

Many have offered CNTU as justification for the devaluation. That's ludicrous! If you subscribe to that argument, then it means HH is asking its customers to pay for its mistake. If prices in the industry have gone up, then HH should simply award less points in the future rather than adjust the redemption level which devalues existing points. IF prices have gone down, which I believe they have due to 9/11 etc., then the property owners get a relative windfall from redemptions even at the old levels because they are getting the same points for something the market says is now worth less.

RutDog, your information is impressive and surprising. I would venture that for most its irrelevant because most redeem VIP awards. Why redeem 20,000 points for a $100 hotel room? Most people accrue miles hoping to go to Hawaii or Eurpoe some day. The devaluations of the ALON and GLON are substantial--43% by my calculation. If you were sitting on 100K points you intended to use 2 years from now for an ALON, they are now worth 43% less. That was something you already owned that was in effect taken away from you.

Are most redemptions for VIP awards? I have used 6 awards, never a VIP award. No desire to go back to Hawaii and all other travel less than 6 nights. Am I that much out of the mainstream? Also, the GLONP award has only gone from 150K to 175K. I don't think a GLON is that valuable anyway because the hotels you can use it at you can usually get pretty cheap.

marc

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Marq:
Are most redemptions for VIP awards? I have used 6 awards, never a VIP award. No desire to go back to Hawaii and all other travel less than 6 nights. Am I that much out of the mainstream? Also, the GLONP award has only gone from 150K to 175K. I don't think a GLON is that valuable anyway because the hotels you can use it at you can usually get pretty cheap.

marc</font>

Well I have both agree and disagree with you.

Agreement: Like you I too dont use the GLON/GLONP redemptions as the determining factor for my opinion/participation in the program, the great majority of awards I use are SC5 or SP5s (3day awards) the comparable points for these stays have gone up 15 to 18%
so while I am not ecstatic, I could see this coming after all I did get FOUR 50k bonuses in the last two years and more points then I had gotten in the previous 8 years with the same approx number of stays per year.

Disagree: My two most recent use of GLONS (not GLONPS) were at the Dublin and Brussels Conrads the lowest available rates at the time of stay were excess of 185EU for the Brussels and 245EU for Dublin IMHO thats is a very cost effective use of those awards.
Note 3 day awards at the same hotels would have been 170k points.
mike

Thanks for the info. I assume your mention of 170K was for the new points; I have paid only max of 100K for 3 days before.

marc

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Marq:
Are most redemptions for VIP awards? I have used 6 awards, never a VIP award. No desire to go back to Hawaii and all other travel less than 6 nights. Am I that much out of the mainstream? Also, the GLONP award has only gone from 150K to 175K. I don't think a GLON is that valuable anyway because the hotels you can use it at you can usually get pretty cheap.</font>
Yes, I tend to use only GLON or GLONP awards -- in London (Paddington Hilton on a GLON), Shanghai (Hilton Shanghai on a GLON), and NYC (Doubletree Suites Times Square on a GLONP).

Disagree strongly that "hotels you can use it (GLON) at you can usually get pretty cheap."

The raising of the GLON award from 100,000 to 150,000 points is a HUGE devaluation and a real blow as far as I am concerned. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif


Kathy

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Marq:
Thanks for the info. I assume your mention of 170K was for the new points; I have paid only max of 100K for 3 days before.

marc</font>

I was still on the topic of GLONs, which was 100k = 6 nights as compared to 2 SC5s =170k points for the same 6 nights.

The new redemptions would be the 150k for the GLON2 versus 210k for 6 one night stays.
The multiple night awards having been eliminated.
Mike

Let me rephrase what I said to be more precise. I believe it is more meaningful to look at the devaluation in the VIP awards because these were the most valuable awards in the program. I don't know what everyone else's motivation and redemption history.

True, the GLONP have not been devalued as much as the GLON and ALON, but I don't believe they should have been increased at all for two reasons. First, with the recession in the travel market, the rooms if anything are less valuable now, so the number of points if anything should have been reduced. Second, the number of 50K bonuses awarded was a HH decision, and they should live with their mistakes rather than force their loyal customers to do so. If a mistake was made, they should correct it on a prospective basis and simply award fewer points in the future. I don't see how their liberal awarding of points gives them license to devalue the points; when you combine both actions its almost fraud IMHO.

Marq, I don't think your travel patterns are that unusual, but that is from my perspective. I have a record of the number of days stayed for every leisure trip (Hilton or other) I have made going back to 1997. 70-75% of my leisure stays are only for 1 night, and there is only one instance (Rome, where I stayed at the Marriott) where I had a 6 night stay. I will be using an ALON for 6 nights this October in Hawaii on my honeymoon so that will be a second. Almost all of the other stays are 2 or 3 nights. Thus, I rarely use ALONs or long multi-night awards. Of course, I am not one who enjoys lazing for 6 days at the beach on vacations. There are many who find that appealing so they are more likely to use ALONs and long multi-night stay awards. To each his own, I guess.

Even with the above information on my own travel stats, it's clear that my HHonors points were devalued. The overall increase in award category level (as discussed by Rut Dog) is only part of the issue, as is noted. My analysis suggests that on average there was an increase in award level of almost .5 (half) of a category. At the mid-level properties, this would effectively mean the points required for a one night award stay would go from 25,000 to 27,000 points or 10% if the half a level increase could be accurately reflected in the award chart. The elimination of multi-night discounts and the huge increase in the special (ALON/GLON type) awards are on top of that 10%. I weighted the loss of the multi-night discounts based on the travel patterns I mentioned above and estimate that my points were devalued to the tune of 20%. Those who make more frequent use of multi-night awards and the ALON/GLON awards are clearly affected to a greater degree. Following the devaluation, I also re-estimated the value I place on an HHonors point and dropped my valuation by the 20% figure to 0.55 cents each (or just above 1/2 cent each).

Mileking:

Thanks for the info. Most of my rewards have been SP5. I will also feel the devaluation. I also remember the double points instead of miles last year that built up my points in a hurry. I truthfully wish hotels and airlines would stop giving out points freely to non-flyers/stayers so that they don't feel a need to devalue points.

I also wish Hilton would institute a Super-Diamond level. Maybe at 100 or 120 nights. Although I really appreciate my Diamond benefits, I fear this Diamond fast track effort will increase the number of Diamonds and then force Hilton to decrease benefits.

Thanks again for all the inputs; I am still in the learning process on how to best take advantage of the laundering of my company's money thru hilton.

marc

I've noticed another trick Hilton is doing to "devalue" points is raising the hotel category levels. For example 'Hilton Wittier' CA is going from Executive to Cat 3. That hotel is a definate Cat 2.

Ditto! I just turned down the Disney Visa charter membership because, hey, I had my trusty HHonors points which were faarrrr more valuable...until all of the above in the first posting happened. Now I'm rethinking my 'no thank you'!

star

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MIKEM:
By-far-and-away, the reason I stay at Hiltons is to earn points for family vacations. I just stayed at a no-name hotel for a company sponsored event where I earned nothing. It just about killed me. I did not want to be there for nothing.

As the Hilton moves toward devaluation, I become less likely to stay with them. Staying at a Hilton now is becoming more like earning nothing.

Keep in mind I'm a Diamond who stays mostly at Hiltons and Dtrees. Why slap the hand that feeds you?</font>

I sincerely hope our Hilton lurker is taking notice of the dissatifaction registered on this thread and reporting it back to the HHonors powers that be.

Deleted

marc

[This message has been edited by Marq (edited 03-31-2003).]

I still like Hilton. I like the way I am treated. I like their service. I like their upgrades. I like the availibility worldwide. I like the way they address any issues I have immediately. All this commotion about devaluation of points doesn't sit right with me. I have never viewed points(awards) as anything but a bonus. Don't forget, we also get airline miles too. I think I got close to 20,000 airline miles for staying at a hotels that I liked. I challenge those that are leaving HH to find a better home with SPG or someone else. HH warned us about the new point levels and I hear are even making exceptions to the redemption rule. So these changes look to me to go into "real" effect 2004. Just a sign of changing times. I am not happy about the changes but I also am not jumping ship from them either.

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[This message has been edited by lisadiamond (edited 03-31-2003).]

korea71:

You said what I was trying to say but you said it much more elegantly. The points are a bonus. The recognition by the hotel staff that I am a valued guest and their attempts to make my constant nights away from home confortable is the primary benefit.

thanks,
marc

PS Lisa, I apologize for my misguided personal attack

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by LemonThrower: edited for formatting - original post is above
I believe it is more meaningful to look at the devaluation in the VIP awards because these were the most valuable awards in the program.... I don't believe they should have been increased at all for two reasons.

First, with the recession in the travel market, the rooms if anything are less valuable now, so the number of points if anything should have been reduced.

Second, the number of 50K bonuses awarded was a HH decision, and they should live with their mistakes rather than force their loyal customers to do so.</font>I disagree. Again, I don't disagree with the sentiment - I am unhappy the best deals have been eliminated - but I disagree with the analysis.

To begin with, the recession is actually a sound business justification for devaluing points.

Per room and per property profits must be down, because occupancy is down and rates are down with them. Paid room rates can not be raised because the market will not support such a move. And service reductions to improve margins have to be limited because of the risk of devaluing the brand.

So Hilton must find alternative ways to enhance profits, and devaluing points can add to the bottom line with a relatively low risk factor, the primary risk being alienating most valuable customers. The risk factor is low because (1) the truly most valuable customers are those who pay all the time and rarely redeem, and (2) The alienated customer can probably be won back through targeted or general relief in the form of promos or other program offerings. And regardless of those factors, the risk is equally mitigated because even the disgruntled won't readily find a better value elsewhere.

Also very important to note is that devaluation in a hospitality recession is very much in line with supply and demand. Cash poor consumers are more willing to spend points on rooms than pay cash. Meanwhile the supply of rooms remains essentially the same. So the HHonors redemption cost increases can be seen as merely a natural response to market forces.

In this light, one could view the 50K promos as very good planning rather than a series of mistakes. The 50K promos generated a certain amount of revenue at the time, and now that the paying market is slumped the burgeoning points market is primed with a good supply of currency ready to provide a healthy alternative revenue stream during difficult times.

I hate to sound like an apologist, because I must reiterate: I'm as unhappy as the next person about the devaluation. But my emotions are mitigated when I can see some sound business principles behind them.

Where Hilton lacks most, in my opinion, is communicating with the HHonors loyalist. This has been handled rather poorly, and perhaps has exposed them to more risk than would otherwise be the case.

[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 03-31-2003).]

In my previous posts on this thread, I made the following general points:a) That non-VIP devaluation is not all that drastic, averaging 5.1% on a single night basis

b) That devaluation makes sense in a travel industry recession as a relatively low risk way of increasing margin and in response to supply and demand forces on the “rooms for points” market.I think the 5.1% devaluation is justified (even while painful from our end) by the business and market force arguments I laid out in my last post. Likewise, since market forces have increased consumer demand for points, it makes sense to me to see reductions in bonuses. And I see the airline transfers and the elimination of the airline VIP packages as more related to the problems of the airline industry than anything to do with Hilton.

But this still leaves the problem of the VIP reward increases and the elimination of the multi-night discount. I see the latter as primarily a margin increasing opportunity created by the lack of such discounts in other hotel programs like Starwood. Remember, Hilton execs are in a very tight spot, and margin needs to be increased at the lowest risk possible, and the lack of competition in this area makes this a risk worth taking.

The VIP rewards are more complex, and I've taken advantage of some free time over the past weekend to do a detailed analysis of these changes. It is probably way over-detailed, but I look forward to feedback from those of you that wade through it all.

For those who won’t be wading the details, I offer this summary on VIP’s: I. TEEN and ALON were outlandishly good deals and as such have been eliminated (even though they still technically exist, they’ve been effectively eliminated because they are now the same as GLONP2);

II. The elimination of TEEN and ALON has minimal overall impact because they only applied to 8 properties, and only 6 of those chose the new Cat. 6 (Pointe’s in PHX will be Cat. 5, making them eligible for GLON2).

III. If you accept the 5.1% devaluation as market based, the elimination of multi night discount as competition based, and dismiss the TEEN and ALON as exceptional values that were way out of line with everything else, then the only fair way to evaluate the new GLONx rates is on how much they discount from standard redemption rates.

IV. Discount analysis reveals GLON was 39% discounted and GLON2 is now only 29% discounted, but GLONP discount of 23% has actually been increased to 27%. This is due in great part to the elimination of the mult-night discount, but IMHO nevertheless represents a decent redemption value. Unfortunately any analysis will do little to mollify lisadiamond and the others who are no longer satisfied with the value added to their spending dollar by HHonors. For me, too, the bottom line is value, and all I can offer is why I think the HHonors rewards still provide a good value for me.

But in order to show why these analyses demonstrate the value of HHonors rewards, I have to digress from the topic of VIP rewards inflation and delve into why I view HHonors not as a loyalty program but as a credit card rewards program. This perspective makes all the difference in the world.

I see now that this post has morphed into a 2000 word essay, too long for a regular post, so I have broken it up into three sections as follows:1)HHonors as a credit card rewards program, titled “HHonors Not a Good Loyalty Program”

2)Discount value analysis of GLONx, titled “VIP Rewards Discount Analysis – GLOx”

3)Details of how TEEN and ALON were effectively eliminated, titled “Hasta La Vista ALON and TEEN”

4)"Wrap Up"


[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 03-31-2003).]

HHonors Is Not a Good Loyalty Program

First off, to understand my perspective, you need to realize I don’t view HHonors as a loyalty program, and don’t think it stands on its own as such. IMHO, stay points alone accrue at such a meager pace that you have to travel at diamond levels merely to get enough points quick enough to actually feel “rewarded” for you loyalty.

But if you view HHonors as a credit card reward program, as I do, the value issue, when choosing where to spend your hotel dollars, becomes somewhat moot. The question for me is, “Do the HHonors rewards provide me with the return I look for from my credit card spending?”

If the answer is yes, then simply stay at whatever hotel provides the all around best value, and sleep soundly knowing that while staying at Best Western (and eating your paid breakfast!), you are earning points towards a free HHonors stay

I’ve posted a few times in this forum and MilesBuzz how I measure the return on my credit card spending. I’m behind in my admittedly laborious bookkeeping, but let’s just stay that my reward usage leaves Discover and all the other cash back cards in the dust. You can search to find my historical figures, but they are always over 2% cash back equivalent (CBE), regularly averaging out at over 5%.

I posted previously in this thread that the devaluation for regular stay rewards is about 5.1%, not including the multi-day discounts. Since this will vary greatly depending on one’s redemption patterns, let’s just use 6% for discussion purposes, and 5% as my CBE. If my CBE is reduced by 6%, I’m still earning 4.7% which is well within acceptable value ranges for me.

And at this point I should mention that the 5% CBE has not included any VIP rewards. Since VIP rewards still provide a substantial points discount off of regular rewards, their usage (starting this year for me) will only make the CBE return look that much more attractive, even at the inflated rates.

[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 03-31-2003).]

VIP Rewards Discount Analysis -- GLOx

That said, let’s discuss the devaluation as it pertains to VIP rewards. The simplest analysis is as follows:ALON/TEEN – 100,000 ALON2/TEEN2 – 175,000 75% increase
GLON – 100,000 GLON2 – 150,000 50% increase
GLONP – 150,000 GLONP2 – 175,000 17% increaseHowever, the other way to look at these is by the amount of discount they provide off the standard points “rates”. I think it’s not very helpful to look at these rewards without comparing them to the standard rewards. They are supposed to be a VIP discount (we know that’s a joke – just get a card and you’ve got Silver), but they are a discount nonetheless, and the discount is off the standard rates.

I’ll mention right now that the new scheme effectively eliminates ALON and TEEN, as the inflated version of these rewards offers no cost advantage over GLOx, and in fact is less valuable in the case of the Pointe resorts of Phoenix. So really, just consider them gone.

That’s the bad news. The good news, if you look at discounts off of regular redemption rates, is that the GLON2 reward is a good deal for Cat. 5’s, and the GLONP2 is actually a better deal than the GLONP when compared against their respective standard rates.

So, let’s take a look at the numbers of the GLOx series from a discount perspective: 6 nights 6 nights Disc. Disc.
Classic/ Select/ GLON/ Classic/ Select/
Cat. 5 Cat. 4 GLON2 Cat. 5 Cat. 4

Old Scheme 165,000 130,000 100,000 39% 23%

New Scheme 210,000 180,000 150,000 29% 17%


6 nights
premium/ GLONP/
cat. 6 GLONP2 Disc.

Old Scheme 195,000 150,000 23%

New Scheme 240,000 175,000 27%Usage of these rewards at Classic and Select properties is still at a discount, but is not quite as much as before. Still it isn’t all that drastic: the Classics had been 39% off and are now only discounted 29%, while Selects were 23% and are now 17%. That’s too bad, but you can still beat both of these, just like under the old scheme, with point stretchers (40% discount), which are much more likely to be booked at Classic and Select.

But the biggest draw of this series has always been the blanket use of GLONP at any Premium property in the world, and I for one am happy that at least under the new scheme, this the 23% discount has actually gone up to 27%. Unfortunately, the 27% discount is off of an reward that went up 23% (standard 6 nights premium), but at least the new VIP reward is still less than the old standard reward.

This doesn’t wipe out the devaluation, but in the new landscape it still means this is a very good value. I look forward to using it some day in Singapore or Hong Kong. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Hasta La Vista ALON and TEEN

Meanwhile, the golden egg of HHonors has always been the ALON/TEEN rewards, which are essentially the same rewards. The catch is that the ALOTEEN, as I’ll call it (no pun intended (http://www.alateen.org/)), is limited to a select number of primarily premium properties. Regardless, the golden egg is gone, as you will see below.

First note that two Premium properties, the Pointe resorts in Phoenix, have selected to be 5’s, not 6’s, under the new scheme.

Also, the DT San Diego Golf Resort, previously the only Classic in this group of properties, will be a 4. Therefore, when weighting an average for the group of properties, I’ve eliminated the DT simply because under the old scheme the ALOTEEN was no better a deal here than the GLON, and under the new scheme the GLON2 actually is a better value.

( I have always wondered why Hilton put this property in the special TEEN reward, not just because it doesn’t make points sense, but I also don’t think it compares by reputation with the other properties. Not that it’s a bad place, but really, if you were going to San Diego on this reward, would you stay here or Torrey Pines? Unless you’ve family in Poway, I’d say the Torrey Pines takes it hands down. Please DTSDGR fans feel free to correct me on my impression, but the fact that it doesn’t need a special reward remains, and as such I will keep it out of the average.)

Devaluing the Pointe’s and removing the DT, here’s how the ALOTEEN rewards stack up: 6 nights 6 nights Disc. Disc.
Premium/ Classic/ 6 nights ALOTEEN/ Premium/ Classic/ Disc.
Cat. 6 Cat. 5 average ALOTEEN2 Cat. 6 Cat. 5 Average

Old Scheme 195,000 165,000 195,000 100,000 49% 39% 48%

New Scheme 240,000 210,000 232,500 175,000 27% 17% 22%The new scheme brings the Cat. 6 property rewards in line with GLONP, and, in the case of the Cat. 5’s, the GLON2 is actually cheaper than the TEEN2. When including the DTSDGR, 3 of the 9 properties offered under ALOTEEN can be had for less with GLON2. For this reason in particular I hope Hilton is on top of this and won’t be having people redeem these rewards when cheaper alternatives exist. And for simplicity’s sake, Hilton should just delete the ALOTEEN rewards from the catalog, period, to reduce confusion.

In Hilton’s defense, this chart clearly shows what an incredible (perhaps outrageous) value the 8 premium properties were at nearly half “price” under ALOTEEN. Why have a reward that is more discounted than Point Stretchers? Hopefully, the silver lining will be that Point Stretchers will appear at these properties, which previously, to the best of my knowledge, never offered them. Whatever the future may hold, if you haven’t gotten the message yet: Book an ALON or TEEN while you still can!

Though the golden egg is gone, let’s remember that only get these deals at 8 properties. There are many other Premium/Cat. 6 properties around the world worth visiting, and the GLONx2 rewards still provide a decent opportunity to visit these at a very reasonable points rate.

[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 03-31-2003).]

Wrap Up

In conclusion, I’m really glad I wrote all this out, as it makes things much clearer for me. I hope some of you find it at least somewhat helpful.

This analysis does make me confident that HHonors is still a viable and valuable credit card rewards program. Whether or not your future paid travel plans include a paid stay at an HHonors hotel, your future can include some nice reward stays, and there are still some very good reward deals to be had out there.

Rut Dog, very good microeconomic analysis. One issue overlooked (of course your comments are welcome) is the marco side.

Hilton are making a devaluation of points with a very long amount of time to use these points before the devaluation takes place which is during the actual recession stage. Hense on a macro-side, when the economy booms again, which it will more than likely at the point when the devaluation begins, they will make even more money.

From another poster challenging SPG x Hilton,
I've looked at SPG, it was tempting, but I stayed with Hilton. When I'm overseas, I do book Six Continents as they give me a good value for my buck, especially when I stretch my money as far as possible. However, I try whatever means possible to book Hilton when out of the country, compare price and make a decision. Only in Hong Kong has the Sheriton come into play in my decisions. I feel the Sheriton charges too much in BKK with all the choices available in that brilliant city.

If I have award points, I usually alternate between the two, Six Cont and Hilton. Inside the USA and Canada, it's always Hilton.

SHADO

No one is happy with the devaluation, and the new point levels required.

But having said that, I disagree with your perspective that HHonors should not be viewed as a loyalty program.

While I understand your points, they too easily overlook why I am a Diamond member of HHonors in the first place.

1) I get consistently high quality service nationwide and woldwide at a vast array of properties.

2) I have a true, dedicated VIP response team a phone call away to meet any special needs I may have.

3) I have a VIP management team available a phone call or e-mail away. One can not overstate the uniqueness and importance of this fact. Name any other travel loyalty program that guarantees it's top tier members 100% satisfaction - the rate I and most diamonds have achieved for many years.

4) Uncooperative property problems aside, I always receive the best room (available) in the house, breakfast for myself and my party at no charge, lots of free bottled water, snacks, lounge access, etc.

So, while my ability to take my family on free vacations will be severely reduced next year, and that's a shame, When I have to stay at a hotel, the Hilton family of properties still treat my loyalty as if it is appreciated - very appreciated. For the true frequent traveler, that is still priceless.

Have to agree with NJDavid. I started out as a Hilton hater 15 years ago with some bad experiences and through this board and, retrying the system again as a gold and now diamond, I have been very pleased with the Hilton/Conrad/Hampton/Doubletree experience. Lots of properties, no problems getting reward stays when I want (even as a gold this wasn't a problem, even during busy seasons), and wonderful treatment at most properties.

Some US Hiltons need a lot of work in renovations but worldwide (and most US locations I have stayed). I have had great rooms at reasonable prices, always free breakfast and quite often GREAT breakfast buffets, and welcome amenities that have included wine, champagne, massive fruit bowls, and delicious chocolate truffles.

I have come to the conclusion that I prefer the status part of the program and the reward stays are just an added bonus . . .

Wow, lots to digest there in the last few posts! Rut Dog, great analysis! I do think you missed the big picture of why many are so upset with the devaluation. You note that the single award night devaluation is only around 5%. If that were the extent of the changes, I don't believe there would be too much complaining. I would venture to say that my leisure stay pattern of 70-75% one night stays, discussed earlier, is highly unusual, yet my analysis suggests my HHonors points were devalued 20%. Most people stay multiple nights at the same location and thus took advantage of the multi-night discounts. From the comments, many people saved their points specifically for A/GLON awards and didn't redeem for much else. The multi-night discount and A/GLON changes are what people are upset about and the devaluation is very real....and certainly more than the 5% you note and the 20% for my situation. All in all, your analysis is very useful. Thanks for putting it together!

As far as HHonors not being a loyalty reward program, I have to disagree. It is what keeps me coming back to Hiltons and without it I would be forced to simply consider room price and nothing else, and likely stay elsewhere.

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment expressed by BlondeBomber that the status part of the program is preferred. My view is that status (HHonors, SPG, whereever) is greatly overrated. I believe it once held more value, but my more recent experiences suggest that I am not being treated any better than someone who walks in off the street without a reservation or someone who uses Priceline. The rewards (free rooms) are where it is at and I calculate the expected value of the points I would achieve on each stay to determine if I am better off staying elsewhere for less total $$$. I will say that the best benefit of HHonors Diamond is the apparent lack of controls on award redemptions. If HHonors were to change that, it would seriously upset the apple cart and I would likely re-evaluate where to take my business.

RutDog, I'm not sure I agree with your analysis. My point is that in a recession, there is a glut of rooms and therefore the value of a room decreases. At the same time, HH is increasing the price in points of these rooms. So its an unjustified double-whammy.

I believe your point is that its Simply Good Business to raise the redemption levels to get people to pay in cash instead of points. I agree with your view of human behavior to prefer to conserve cash. However, if you extend this logic, then Hilton should raise the cash prices of their properties as well, since this will bring in more revenue per room.

What your analysis leaves out is that a lot of us would not spend $300+ per night at HWV if we had to spend cash. As pointed out, HH fails as a loyalty program and I'd happily accept a 50%+ discount to use priceline and stay at a comparable or better property.

Or to extend your argument a little further, Hilton should advertise one price and raise it once the guest arrives. Isn't that what Hilton has done with the HH program? I feel they have.

I estimate a HH point is worth $.0068 to me assuming I'm redeeming a VIP award. I get that by figuring a room is worth at most $200 a night times 6 nights divived by 175,000. For $200, I can stay at what is probably a better boutique hotel or pay less and get something comparable on Priceline, even in Europe these days. Not being diamond, when you deduct for capacity controls and similar factors, the risk of future devaluations, etc., I'm not sure its worth the effort. I'm shifting more of my spending to cash back credit cards.

P.S. I don't mean to challenge you, but I'm left unpersuaded. I appreciate the back and forth, and hope you do to.

I had a question for all:

For those of you who have more than 100,000 points, are you going to cash in the GLON award for 100,000 miles (even though you may nothave anything specific planned)?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PrivatePilot:
I had a question for all:

For those of you who have more than 100,000 points, are you going to cash in the GLON award for 100,000 miles (even though you may nothave anything specific planned)? </font>

No. I usually don't stay that long in any one place. I also try to include at least one revenue night in any of the awards that I may use. It's amazing how one "paid" night before free nights ensures all benefits that otherwise might not be available due to capacity controls. I do this even though I am a diamond.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PrivatePilot:
I had a question for all:

For those of you who have more than 100,000 points, are you going to cash in the GLON award for 100,000 miles (even though you may nothave anything specific planned)? </font>

Most likely, in my case.

While I feel for those of you who have chosen Hilton as a primary program, I personally can't be too upset. I ran up 115,000 points with ~8 stays (mostly in 2001), so I can't really complain that Hilton is giving me over a year to use a GLON at the old rate. And the Gold status that I've had for the last 2 years was through one of the 50,000 promos, and using AAGU on the last day (2/28) I now have Gold for another 2 years. I've had a very easy time with Hilton, and I can deal with the devaluation as a result.

I, too, have the problem that another poster has- I'm not used to staying at hotels for more than a few nights. It makes choosing a hotel for a GLON that much more difficult!

The new Hilton web site is tremendous-ly bad! It is hard to look at account information and the value of my points has again gone down. I see that a $100 gift certificate for major retailers has gone up .... was 30,000 points and now 40,000 points.
I wrote hilton and was very careful not to sound like a complainer. I stated my veiws in a civil fashion despite the anger I had toward the new "rewards"!!!
a bass boat for over 9,000,000 points
a nintendo I could buy at a store for $300 for over 350,000 points?
a snowmobile for over 6,000,000 points.
a telephone with an xtra handset for over 90,000
...

I redeemed 110,000 in las vegas 4 yrs ago for $400 in chips... now the same amount of chips costs 160,000 as the value is now 40,000 points for a $100 chip.
The value of the points has been great in europe or asia when staying at a Hilton or Conrad for 25,000-35,000 points a night. with a Diamond upgrade for a deluxe room and executive floor privillages the value of the points is as high as $450+ a night based on guests who pay in cash.

Two and a half years ago I took my girlfriend to Frankfurt and Athens 150,000 points each for airfare from green bay to frankfurt (25,000 united points from frankfurt to athens) athens hilton was 25,000points a night X 5 night stay . frankfurt hilton was a little more per night ....anyway the whole trip cost 500,000 points.
Now this trip is not available- as the air is no longer an option with Hilton honors program. A Hilton rep said the airlines were to blame as they were asking too much for the airline certificates. I wonder if the airlines also saw the points that they were trading for flights as being devalued and not worth the trouble. Other companies seem to still be offering air travel as a program benefit.
I have 500,000 points right now. After I burn them up I am thinking about switching preferences. Marriott said if I had 18 stays in a quarter they would give me Diamond equivlent status. Starwood gave me Platinum just for asking when I mentioned 120 nights a year in Hilton properties.

Some people like cheverolet some like ford some like dodge. (usually because of a very good or a very bad expierence.) They are all basically the same, it is the luck of the draw in some cases ... you may have a great car and you may have a lemon.

Is there that big of a difference with hotels or am I flippin out about nothin and should shut up @:-).
After all the hard earned points are mine because of a good inghts rest.....
I got them for sleeping

Is there that big of a difference with hotels or am I flippin out about nothin and should shut up @:-).
After all the hard earned points are mine because of a good inghts rest.....
I got them for sleeping

It used to be that there were some reasonable deals for converting HH points to airline points and VV. However, the "value" of trades has diminished greatly in the last few years. My guess is that its due to the decline in profitability of the airline business in general since 2000.

As to trading points for retail items, its almost never a good deal to do so with any program's points (airline or hotel). The "prices" are always a poor value vs. paying cash when compared to the potential value of redemption for stays or flights. The real value is in using a loyalty program's points within the group that they were earned from in the first place.

I agree with the analysis of value of retail items.

Deflation? Certainly.

However, I see both an inflation in points and and increase of the "point price" in particular here in Europe. During the last two years I had two triple points and two double points promotions (took some telephone calls, but it worked). The best "point for the dollar" deals were in New York (360.000 points for 6000 Dollar and 205.000 points for 4100 Dollar) - this alone secures 20 nights in a Cat. 6 hotel. This cannot be a sound development: 20 nights in a top European place with a rate of 320 Euro cost about the same I paid for my original stays in New York. Spend 10.000 Dollar in New York, get 10.000 Dollar of European travel for free.

You guys in the US will certainly feel the pain even more. The Categories of the European properties went up - certainly a result of the weak Dollar. On the other side of the pond we enjoy it: A 220 Euro rate for the Hilton Berlin is still a 220 Euro rate, but scores about 6.000 points. Five stays, get one free. With the greenback at 1,20 and not at 1,50 it was about six 1/2 stays to get one free, the weak Dollar increases the European domestic value of the point.

Over 4 years hotel prices have gone through the roof. Yes points have changed a lot since then, but some things have been added,since they were runnning so mnay promos a couple of years ago at double or triple points for 90 days or more.

Inflation has greatly impacted point values. I am too young to remember this but it used to be that you actually had to fly in an airplane or stay in a hotel to get these miles/points. Now, just charge your grandchildren into debters prison and you can get the 1% freebee that used to be a reward for being a good customer. I tend to use them whenever I see a reward I want, like a free subscription ot the Economist (jk). If you store these things up and never use them, the point inflation will kill you. Unlike bank accounts, these points don't have an interest rate to ease or bail out the owners from inflation's bite. I just wish I had stashed some money in EUR or CAD two years ago when I had the chance to move away from the Bush Peso.

The best "point for the dollar" deals were in New York (360.000 points for 6000 Dollar and 205.000 points for 4100 Dollar) - this alone secures 20 nights in a Cat. 6 hotel. This cannot be a sound development: 20 nights in a top European place with a rate of 320 Euro cost about the same I paid for my original stays in New York. Spend 10.000 Dollar in New York, get 10.000 Dollar of European travel for free

I will give this a whirl if I can pull it off!
Thanks

If you store these things up and never use them, the point inflation will kill you. Unlike bank accounts, these points don't have an interest rate to ease or bail out the owners from inflation's bite. That is the problem with all points/miles programs, which is why I shake my head when I see people proudly boasting about "banking" 4 or 5 million points, etc... why save them? They are worth less and less every day.

The merchandise catalogue tied to HHonors, though, is indeed ridiculous. When you can spend 30,000 points on a NYC hotel room that retails for up to $500 or 350,000 points on a Wii that retails for $250, the valuation is beyond absurd. The merch is either for people who have so many points they don't care that they're getting screwed... or people too busy to comparison-shop.