Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - Another blow to terrorism, TSA stops man from boarding plane with carved ivory art

More mission creep

Yes, I know you can't export ivory out of the US. I just don't know what it has to do with airport security and why the TSA is even trained to look for ivory in carry on bags.

The other passengers don't know how lucky they were they stopped the carved items from getting on board :rolleyes:

From http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/December/11-enrd-1576.html

WASHINGTON – Lin Feng Xu, 31, an antique dealer in China, has pleaded guilty to smuggling and to violating the Endangered Species Act in connection with the illegal export of African elephant ivory in his carry-on luggage.

According to documents filed in federal court in Brooklyn, N.Y., today, a Transportation Security Administration (TSA) security officer at JFK International Airport in Queens, N.Y., alerted inspectors with the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service on Sept. 17, 2011, that Xu, a Chinese national, was carrying suspected wildlife items in his carry-on luggage based on x-ray screening. When questioned about 18 carved art objects apparently made of ivory, Xu initially stated that he did not know what they were made from and that they had been purchased for approximately $3,000 to 4,000 at U.S. auction houses

Turns out the passenger has had a lot of jobs in his day: whale hunter, seal clubber, president of the fox network...

Mike

Still to come: Seizures of overdue library books as well as junk food and newspapers labeled "Do not remove" pilfered from the lounge. :p

Time to think of the TSA as our government-supplied conscience. :rolleyes:

And while ivory has yet to be proven that it can bring down an airliner ;), the Secret Service still wrestled the ivory to the ground... :rolleyes:

I wonder if they will have a problem with my wharthog tusk keychain on my next pass through security??

Turns out the passenger has had a lot of jobs in his day: whale hunter, seal clubber, president of the fox network...

Mike

"...and sure, like everyone I have dealt a little ivory."

Time to think of the TSA as our government-supplied conscience. :rolleyes:

The TDC questions could just cover everything.
"Where are you going?"
"Have you every been a card carrying member of Al Qaeda?"
"Did you throw that spitball at Mrs. Humpfry in the third grade?"
"Have you EVER removed the label tag from a mattress or a pillow?" :rolleyes:

OTOH this was supposedly ivory of African origin (how do they tell it apart from Asian ivory?) It is not allowed to bring African ivory into the US. This gent was in the US removing ivory he purchased here. Seems like he was following the intent of the US government's desires: making the US an ivory-free location. Why are they upset with him?

Hums tune to "Dragnet"....

Hums tune to "Dragnet"....

A moment of silence for Officer Bill Gannon, please.

More mission creep

Yes, I know you can't export ivory out of the US. I just don't know what it has to do with airport security and why the TSA is even trained to look for ivory in carry on bags.

I disagree with Cordelli and the other posters in this thread.

I am very happy to see that TSA is aware of the Endangered Species Act and is helping to enforce it.

I am very happy to see that TSA is aware of the Endangered Species Act and is helping to enforce it.

"TSA seeks to advance mass transit (http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/tsnm/mass_transit/index.shtm) and passenger rail security through a comprehensive strategic approach that enhances capabilities to detect, deter, and prevent terrorist attacks and respond to and recover from attacks and security incidents, should they occur."

Mass transportation modes include (http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/tsnm/mass_transit/index.shtm):

* Inter-city buses
* Trolleybuses
* Subway & commuter rail
* Demand response services
* Heavy and light rail
* Automated guideway transit
* Cable cars
* Monorails

I hope you can at least understand why I feel queasy when the "fruits" of TSA administrative searches, whether "random [and] unpredictable (http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/tsnm/mass_transit/index.shtm)" at train stations, or systematic, as at airport checkpoints, are utilized to prosecute crimes completely unrelated to travel safety and security, thereby circumventing constitutional protections that are starting to look quaint and archaic. :(

Yes, if TSA employees find a severed head in somebody's carry-on, I would expect them to call the police. For that matter, I have a visceral hatred of child pornography such as that discovered at a TSA checkpoint at ITO and argued in this appeal (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2011/09/09/09-10504.pdf) over whether the items seized were "fruits of the poisoned tree."

Incidentally, the judge notes in that ruling that "TSA screeners do not have any training in identifying contraband, and they are not directed by any policy to perform searches for contraband. The screener’s sole job is to clear bags of safety concerns relating to air travel. However, if, in the course of searching for explosives, a screener finds an item she believes to be contraband, she is required by TSA Operations Directive OD-400-54-2 to call a law enforcement officer."

Yet IMHO all that begs the question of why in totality we should accept government employees having the right (duty) to search my personal belongings, to ask questions such "Who do you work for," and "what is the purpose of your trip," and to force me to submit to holding up my hands in symbolic supplication as I stand inside a machine of unproven safety, or to undergo a body search that may extend to a quasi-strip search, or maybe both, just to travel within my own country.

A layer of government "officers" that "help enforce" laws at bus stops, subway stations, or street corners doesn't comprise the kind of society I want my grandchildren to live in, even though it might seem superficially "safer." :(

These comments are from two threads on Fodors regarding TSA: http://www.fodors.com/community/fodorite-lounge/grossed-out-when-tsa-had-to-do-a-security-check-in-my-hair.cfm was the main one:

"OTOH, I've seen some passengers get really aggressive and a few even start yelling at the TSA agents. Not the way to go. These agents are trying to do a difficult job with sometimes vague or ambiguous instructions.
One could wish for the good old days of breezing through an airport, but it's today's world with a possible, unknown terrorist hidden in our midst, so we have to put a good face on all the inconveniences and the contradictions."

"Periodically I get hassled.A small price to pay these days."

"Awful as it can be (a friend of mine had an obsessive search of her underwire bra) I would still rather submit to somewhat unpleasant pat-downs etc rather than be blown-up."

"I am willing to put up with scans and pat downs because they have to be better than being blown up mid air."

Self-righteous even as you bend over..."thank you sir may I have another" comes to mind.

I disagree with Cordelli and the other posters in this thread.

I am very happy to see that TSA is aware of the Endangered Species Act and is helping to enforce it.

What does the Endangered Species Act have to do with transportation security? I just don't see the connection here. Perhaps TSA should focus on mastering their primary responsibilities before expanding into other areas where they, quite frankly, have no business.

I hope this guy fights this in court, and his lawyer argues that the discovered ivory was neither a weapon, explosive, or incendiary device. Were I on a jury, that's all I'd need to hear to acquit. Since the ivory wasn't WEI, there was no mandate to look for it. Its discovery (which the prosecution would hinge on) would be fruit from a poisoned tree, which means I'd disregard it as evidence. Absent that evidence, I think it would be awfully hard to find him guilty.

I hope this guy fights this in court, and his lawyer argues that the discovered ivory was neither a weapon, explosive, or incendiary device.

Since he plead guilty that's no longer an option. The press release does not mention what deal he cut for his guilty plea.

The rationale for the TSA's administrative search is the safety and security of air travel. Hence, the rationale for being able to search for items (weapons, explosives) which can be a risk to aviation.

Anything that's not in this category, legal to possess or not (cash, ivory, child pornography, severed human heads, narcotics, etc.) is NOT the TSA's concern, and they should be specifically prohibited from taking any action in regards to it, including calling law enforcement. Should they do so, it SHOULD be fruit of the poisonous tree.

"...and sure, like everyone I have dealt a little ivory."

I've made quite a few items that have been embellished and sold by a local scrimshander. The ivory came from a registered source, however, I prefer using fossil material rather than the alternative.

These comments are from two threads on Fodors regarding TSA: http://www.fodors.com/community/fodorite-lounge/grossed-out-when-tsa-had-to-do-a-security-check-in-my-hair.cfm was the main one:

"OTOH, I've seen some passengers get really aggressive and a few even start yelling at the TSA agents. Not the way to go. These agents are trying to do a difficult job with sometimes vague or ambiguous instructions.
One could wish for the good old days of breezing through an airport, but it's today's world with a possible, unknown terrorist hidden in our midst, so we have to put a good face on all the inconveniences and the contradictions."

"Periodically I get hassled.A small price to pay these days."

"Awful as it can be (a friend of mine had an obsessive search of her underwire bra) I would still rather submit to somewhat unpleasant pat-downs etc rather than be blown-up."

"I am willing to put up with scans and pat downs because they have to be better than being blown up mid air."

Self-righteous even as you bend over..."thank you sir may I have another" comes to mind.

Just more victims of the availability heuristic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic). I swear, every time I see these comments, I want to ask those people if they'd advocate reducing the speed limit on the highway to 20 MPH to prevent auto accidents.

Mike

The old saying/Chinese proverb comes to mind "give them an inch and they will take advance the foot/take the yard/move a mile" :td: in the "anything is good in the name of homeland security" :mad:

So, let's see - arms up high, freeze & don't move, and, drop your pants if you declare your colostomy bag, etc. b/c the clerk has a shinny badge .... Pretty soon, they will be banning "alumnium foil" wrapped items in all carry-ons ! :rolleyes: Hmmm, "look at what we might have found here"

BTW, those 18 ivory white carved objects appeared to be miniature Budda statues (typically several inches high) reading from a news source this morning - threat to transport & terroism security, I think NOT - more dangerous if they're chopsticks, IMHO.

Not saying it's okay to import & export them against ESA.

What does the Endangered Species Act have to do with transportation security? I just don't see the connection here.

I think posters are overlooking the fact that the smuggler was caught while attempting to cross an international border. As he was making a border crossing, the smuggler would have still been subject to searches by Customs & Border Patrol even if TSA had suddenly disappeared.

As a frequent traveler, I am glad that the different agencies are working with one another. If they were working independently, we border-crossers would first have to be screened by TSA to ensure that we were not terrorists. Then we would be screened again by CBP to ensure that we were not smuggling anything they search for. Next, we would then be searched again by the Fish and Wildlife Service to ensure that we were not violating the Endangered Species Act.

IMHO, having the TSA share its screening efforts with the other agencies means that everybody saves time and money.

Yeah, but in practice, that means TSA screens EVERYONE to the level of international border crossing, since they're stationed at the initial checkpoint.

Pass.

I swear, every time I see these comments, I want to ask those people if they'd advocate reducing the speed limit on the highway to 20 MPH to prevent auto accidents.


Apparently some do, and self-enforce it. At least judging from a couple of cars that I had the misfortune to be behind going to/coming from the office today.

Apparently some do, and self-enforce it. At least judging from a couple of cars that I had the misfortune to be behind going to/coming from the office today.

You're describing Farmer Brown, the fellow who often drives ahead of me on his way to market. You can find him out in the left lane, chatting with his wife as he cruises along: "I don't why people complain about the congestion these days, Martha. There's hardly ever a car in front of us." :D

The same holds true for him at TSA check points.

IMHO, having the TSA share its screening efforts with the other agencies means that everybody saves time and money.

Except that it clearly violates Constitutional rights. The courts have ruled that TSA may perform a minimally invasive administrative search for weapons, explosives, and incendiary devices.

Again, what threat does ivory present? Which is it - a "W", an "E", or an "I"? As you and I both know it's "N" - as in "none of the above" - I'd suggest that TSA be barred from searching for it, along with about a jillion other things.

My position on this couldn't be simpler - if it's not a "W", an "E", or an "I" it's none of TSA's business. I don't care if it's a brick of drugs, a million dollars of terrorist money, or evidence that some poor guy is trapped in a Chinese fortune cookie factory being forced to write notes on little pieces of paper all day.

TSA, like nosy neighbors, is overstepping its bounds and is greatly hated for it.

Except that it clearly violates Constitutional rights. The courts have ruled that TSA may perform a minimally invasive administrative search for weapons, explosives, and incendiary devices.

TSA, like nosy neighbors, is overstepping its bounds and is greatly hated for it.

+1 Being foreign national visiting the US, the clerk "ruled" that the individual has minimal to no rights whatsoever, and it's likely to be challenged for the seizure of the goods (high legal costs, time, etc.) :rolleyes:

History will reflect this chapter of American civilization, sadly as one of the darkest for liberty, justice & freedom, and for future generations to read upon. :mad: :( :td: