oneworld - OW bankruptcies may continue with Malev

First Mexicana, then JAL, then AA, now maybe Malev:

http://atwonline.com/airline-finance-data/news/reports-malev-nearing-bankruptcy-1206

"Hungarian Minister of Finance Tamas Fellegi confirmed to Hungarian media that the Budapest government is holding talks with an investor from the Czech Republic to form a new carrier and a deal could be reached by the middle of next year."

Kingfisher also has $$ problems: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/airlines-india/1268666-kingfisher-flights-cancelled-oil-companies-stop-fuel-supply-merged.html

http://www.oneworld.com/member-airlines/members-elect/

I wonder if AB and IAG have evaluated taking a share of MA.

I wonder if AB and IAG have evaluated taking a share of MA.

It may have been one of the 12 airlines Willie Walsh was reported to be looking at but clearly decided against it - if the Hungarian government has given up, why should they.

As for Air Berlin, they're about to get an equity injection from Etihad (http://atwonline.com/airline-finance-data/news/etihad-reportedly-buy-minority-stake-air-berlin-1206) therefore not likely to have the cash to help prop up Malev.

No chance that Air Berlin will be able to help Malev. In fact, they're probably the next OW bankruptcy...

No chance that Air Berlin will be able to help Malev. In fact, they're probably the next OW bankruptcy...

+1.

No chance that Air Berlin will be able to help Malev. In fact, they're probably the next OW bankruptcy...

That seems like a real long shot. Today's press release from MH is pretty grim. Ongoing loses with the goal of returning to profit in two years. They are cutting capacity by 12%, some of it on high visibility routes.

The first is to make Malaysia Airlines’ network smaller yet profitable which will entail suspending loss-making services to and from Cape Town, Johannesburg, Buenos Aires and other loss-making routes.

However they are still committed to joining oneworld and depending on alliance membership to drive additional bookings.

Malev Says Airline ‘Unviable,’ Hungary May Not Be Able to Help
January 30, 2012, 12:22 PM EST

By Andras Gergely

Jan. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Malev Zrt., Hungary’s state-owned airline, said financing for the carrier is untenable and that the government may not be able to help because of European Union competition rules.

“Despite the continually improving commercial results, the financing of activities had become unviable and was unresolved from the end of January,” Chief Executive Officer Lorant Limburger told Malev’s board today, according to a statement on the carrier’s website. Board Chairman Janos Berenyi asked Malev’s management to present a “liquidity plan for the immediate future” by the end of the week.

Hungary’s government today granted Malev the status of “strategically extraordinarily important company,” which may assist a reorganization and maintain an airline with Budapest as its base, the Development Ministry said in an e-mailed response to questions from Bloomberg News. The action can be used to shield the company from bankruptcy proceedings that may be initiated by creditors.

A European Union ruling on Jan. 9 ordered Malev to repay “unlawful aid” the government gave the carrier from 2007 to 2010. That gives Hungary “extremely limited” options for helping Malev, the airline said today.

European governments seeking cost reductions to weather the region’s debt crisis are becoming reluctant to save airlines. Spanair SA failed on Jan. 28 after Qatar Air halted bid talks and the Catalonia regional government in Spain indicated it wouldn’t continue to supply money. State investors in Sweden, Ireland and Portugal are among those who are seeking to reduce direct support to carriers.

A buyer is being sought for Malev after the state took a 95 percent stake to replace Russian bank Vnesheconombank as controlling shareholder when a previous privatization failed. Hungary is in “advanced” talks with potential European investors after China’s Hainan Airlines quit talks, the government said Dec. 5, before the EU ruling.

ILFC Holdings Inc., an aircraft leasing company based in Los Angeles, has agreed to keep providing the planes used by Malev, the carrier said today.



Source: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-30/malev-says-airline-unviable-hungary-may-not-be-able-to-help.html

Grounding seems to be imminent....?

First Mexicana, then JAL, then AA, now maybe Malev
Does the term "bankrupcy" mean the same things (possiblity of either restructuring "chapter 11 style" or ceasing of operations "chapter 7 style) worldwide?

I don't know what exact bankrupcy process Mexicana went through legally, but it shut down and ceased operations. (The only part of Mexicana that seems to still be alive its its endless listing as an AA OW partner in the AA inflight magazine!)

What JAL and AA are going through is quite different (the same sort of "restructuring" that lots of non-OW airlines have already gone through, sometimes more than once, and often in fact emerged stronger from it).

Grounding seems to be imminent....?

No grounding at all...for now! Hungarian government is extending the life of Malev while trying to find new buyers (and thus solving the big issues with the minority Russian partner).

Here under the details of the operation that could slightly end (6-8 months?)as it has been with the old AZ in Italy:
The government on Monday declared national carrier Malev a "business of prime strategic significance".

The government made the declaration in a decree dated January 30 as mandated by a paragraph in the Act on Bankruptcy and Liquidation Procedures. The decree came into force at 7am on Monday.

In the Act on Bankruptcy and Liquidation Procedures, a government declaration of a company’s "strategic significance" prevents any creditor of the company from initiating a bankruptcy procedure against it.

The decree cites paragraphs in the act which authorise the government to make the declaration of troubled companies at which the settlement of debts, agreement with creditors or reorganisation is in the national economic interest.

The declaration may be made of companies of "national significance" whose losses cannot be eliminated "in the foreseeable future because of a shortage of assets" and in which neither the owners nor the state may offer support, but whose possible sale as a whole entity is in the public interest in light of its continued operation thereafter.

The declaration allows the companies to be wound up without a legal successor in an accelerated, transparent procedure.

In either case the company in charge of the procedure must be a nonprofit company wholly owned by the state. The

company in charge may issue invitations for the sale rather than calling a public tender but must protect the interest of creditors as with any other company.

The declaration could be a useful tool for a reorganisation of the airline, the communications department of the National Development Ministry said, answering a question by MTI.

The ministry said the measure, which it called a "necessary legal technicality", was in line with its earlier announced strategy to keep a Budapest-based airline operating.


Source is here:http://www.bbj.hu/business/update---govt-declares-malev-strategic-company-in-decree_62553

I will continue to track the issue also in Hungarian press.

No grounding at all...for now! Hungarian government is extending the life of Malev while trying to find new buyers (and thus solving the big issues with the minority Russian partner).

Here under the details of the operation that could slightly end (6-8 months?)as it has been with the old AZ in Italy:
The government on Monday declared national carrier Malev a "business of prime strategic significance".

The government made the declaration in a decree dated January 30 as mandated by a paragraph in the Act on Bankruptcy and Liquidation Procedures. The decree came into force at 7am on Monday.

In the Act on Bankruptcy and Liquidation Procedures, a government declaration of a company’s "strategic significance" prevents any creditor of the company from initiating a bankruptcy procedure against it.

The decree cites paragraphs in the act which authorise the government to make the declaration of troubled companies at which the settlement of debts, agreement with creditors or reorganisation is in the national economic interest.

The declaration may be made of companies of "national significance" whose losses cannot be eliminated "in the foreseeable future because of a shortage of assets" and in which neither the owners nor the state may offer support, but whose possible sale as a whole entity is in the public interest in light of its continued operation thereafter.

The declaration allows the companies to be wound up without a legal successor in an accelerated, transparent procedure.

In either case the company in charge of the procedure must be a nonprofit company wholly owned by the state. The

company in charge may issue invitations for the sale rather than calling a public tender but must protect the interest of creditors as with any other company.

The declaration could be a useful tool for a reorganisation of the airline, the communications department of the National Development Ministry said, answering a question by MTI.

The ministry said the measure, which it called a "necessary legal technicality", was in line with its earlier announced strategy to keep a Budapest-based airline operating.


What is the source of this English-language article?

Unfortunately, that was yesterday's news. Tonight the situation seems to be much worse IMO (source in Hungarian (http://index.hu/gazdasag/2012/01/31/orakra_a_csodtol_a_malev/), Malév has hours to bankruptcy*). Essentially, a governmental degree has been announced about the compensation of passengers stranded after the grounding of the fleet. I try to be optimistic, however, since I want to fly home on Saturday from HEL on MA747 and my mother is to do the same a week later.

*Hereby imagine a Mexicana-stlye one and not the Chapter 11 restructuring.

What is the source of this English-language article?


isn't it this Reuters one?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/uk-hungary-malev-idUSLNE80U03620120131

Quite shocking to see so many OW carriers in various stages of big trouble.

I think everyone is pretty hopeful AA is going to return to profitability once they exit BK.... but the other carriers, not so much. Unless their respective governments continue to prop them up, I can see Kingfisher, Malev, etc going the way of Mexicana... and dealing a major blow to OW as a whole.

isn't it this Reuters one?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/uk-hungary-malev-idUSLNE80U03620120131

It doesn't sound promising:

"In this form we can certainly not continue, so we are aiming for a gapless transition," Berenyi said. "We hope we can last as long as possible while a new national airline is formed that can serve all the functions currently performed by Malev."

Berenyi said the situation was volatile as Malev's funding should last as long as a month under normal circumstances but cash could run out within days if partners lose confidence and start asking for advance payments or deposits.

Does the term "bankrupcy" mean the same things (possiblity of either restructuring "chapter 11 style" or ceasing of operations "chapter 7 style) worldwide?

I don't know what exact bankrupcy process Mexicana went through legally, but it shut down and ceased operations. (The only part of Mexicana that seems to still be alive its its endless listing as an AA OW partner in the AA inflight magazine!)

What JAL and AA are going through is quite different (the same sort of "restructuring" that lots of non-OW airlines have already gone through, sometimes more than once, and often in fact emerged stronger from it).

It generally means financially insolvent in some form or another just about everywhere; but what is allowed to such companies and various involved parties varies by the laws or other political and economic relationships applicable in the market where the company is registered.

Quite shocking to see so many OW carriers in various stages of big trouble.

I think everyone is pretty hopeful AA is going to return to profitability once they exit BK.... but the other carriers, not so much. Unless their respective governments continue to prop them up, I can see Kingfisher, Malev, etc going the way of Mexicana... and dealing a major blow to OW as a whole.

It's not just oneworld you know. Spanair has just gone bust, and Lufthansa has dumped bmi.

Something to do with high fuel prices and tight credit conditions perhaps.

It is widely believed in Hungary that some form of privately operated, BUD based national carrier will replace Malév. All major newspaper/internet articles I have come across in the previous days share this opinion.
Whether or not
- it will be part of OW or
- operate on an LCC model or
- the new company will take over Malév Duna Club members and points
is not known at this point.

On the other hand, the financial situation of the company is extremely worrying and many speculate that despite the government's efforts to protect the company from its creditors, bankruptcy is imminent. In its latest move yesterday, the government issued a guarantee to reroute/compensate all those having a ticket within 3 days of a potential closure of operations. The reason on why this is 3 days is not known.

3 days? How about people that have tickets booked later on?

I have tickets with them during busy Easter and holiday periods. When I booked them they were priced reasonably, the competition currently has fares 2-3 times as high. *if* the go belly up I'm greatly ****** as I will not only have to buy new tickets, but also pay three times as much for them.

3 days? How about people that have tickets booked later on?

I have tickets with them during busy Easter and holiday periods. When I booked them they were priced reasonably, the competition currently has fares 2-3 times as high. *if* the go belly up I'm greatly ****** as I will not only have to buy new tickets, but also pay three times as much for them.
I'm potentially in the same bind, having planned on using MA codeshares on AA metal for an affordable one-way TATL in J this spring. Fingers crossed.

I'm extremely worried about my miles AND my status match request. I'm beginning to look (yet again) at alternate programs: AY seems very attractive at this point.

Speaking of flying, I hope to squeeze in at least one more Malév run. I wanted to fly to BEG and/or TIA or SKP with them, but with all this brouhaha going on, I don't know what I'm going to do.

It generally means financially insolvent in some form or another just about everywhere; but what is allowed to such companies and various involved parties varies by the laws or other political and economic relationships applicable in the market where the company is registered.
That then is the problem with using one term worldwide. Sorry, but chapter 11 in the US does not mean financially insolvent. I just means temporary protection from creditors for whatever reason. On of the best examples is when Frontier Airlines, having plenty of money on hand, went into bankrupcy protection when one of its credit card processors said it would start holding a year's worth of payments back, or something crazy like that. Frontier going into chapter 11 bankrupcy made that not happen, and was the only reason that Frontier went into chapter 11 bankrucpy at that point.

It's been very common for ailrines in the US to go into chapter 11 bankrupcy (Continental did it twice!) simply to force their unions into better-for-the-airline negotiations, and stuff like that.

The problem is that US bankrupcy has several different types, and only chatper 7 is "financially insolvent". But none of the major US airlines that exist now (sort of by definition!) have done chapter 7, only chapter 11 "restructuring".

But if US chapter 11 does not have an equivalency (still called "bankrucpy") in other countries (Mexico, Hungary, wherever), then IMHO it's not valid to lump AA and JAL (which did the "restruturing" kind) with Mexicana and Malev (which seem to be doing the "financially insolvent" kind), and thus it's not valid to use just the term "bankrupcy" to sum up all these things at all these different airlines.

Chapter 11's (and their equvalents, where they exist) will continue, but have nothing to do with Mexicana or Malev. Chapter 7's (and their equivalents) will continue, but have nothing to do with AA or JAL.

So the Hungarian government is trying to do for Malev something like what Switzerland did when making Swissair into Swiss?

That then is the problem with using one term worldwide. Sorry, but chapter 11 in the US does not mean financially insolvent. I just means temporary protection from creditors for whatever reason. On of the best examples is when Frontier Airlines, having plenty of money on hand, went into bankrupcy protection when one of its credit card processors said it would start holding a year's worth of payments back, or something crazy like that. Frontier going into chapter 11 bankrupcy made that not happen, and was the only reason that Frontier went into chapter 11 bankrucpy at that point.

It's been very common for ailrines in the US to go into chapter 11 bankrupcy (Continental did it twice!) simply to force their unions into better-for-the-airline negotiations, and stuff like that.

The problem is that US bankrupcy has several different types, and only chatper 7 is "financially insolvent". But none of the major US airlines that exist now (sort of by definition!) have done chapter 7, only chapter 11 "restructuring".

But if US chapter 11 does not have an equivalency (still called "bankrucpy") in other countries (Mexico, Hungary, wherever), then IMHO it's not valid to lump AA and JAL (which did the "restruturing" kind) with Mexicana and Malev (which seem to be doing the "financially insolvent" kind), and thus it's not valid to use just the term "bankrupcy" to sum up all these things at all these different airlines.

Chapter 11's (and their equvalents, where they exist) will continue, but have nothing to do with Mexicana or Malev. Chapter 7's (and their equivalents) will continue, but have nothing to do with AA or JAL.

(a) Restructuring of the "financially insolvent" (to allow for an organization to be a continuing corporate entity) and (b) "liquidation" of the "financially insolvent" aren't the same thing anywhere.

No other sovereign country beside the US has current US Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 bankruptcy for companies -- that is primarily because those Chapter 11 (reorg. bankruptcy) and Chapter 7 (liquidation bankruptcy) items are references to filings made under the US Bankruptcy Code and are only applicable where US Bankruptcy Code is of relevance to a legal jurisdiction/court.

While anyone can file whatever they wish, it doesn't mean they will necessarily get the outcome they wish.

It may have been one of the 12 airlines Willie Walsh was reported to be looking at but clearly decided against it - if the Hungarian government has given up, why should they.

As for Air Berlin, they're about to get an equity injection from Etihad (http://atwonline.com/airline-finance-data/news/etihad-reportedly-buy-minority-stake-air-berlin-1206) therefore not likely to have the cash to help prop up Malev.

No chance that Air Berlin will be able to help Malev. In fact, they're probably the next OW bankruptcy...

+1.

-1. As mentioned above, with Etihad investing in AB, I doubt AB will be in too much of a financial problem-at least for the near future.

So the Hungarian government is trying to do for Malev something like what Switzerland did when making Swissair into Swiss?



(a) Restructuring of the "financially insolvent" (to allow for an organization to be a continuing corporate entity) and (b) "liquidation" of the "financially insolvent" aren't the same thing anywhere.

No other sovereign country beside the US has current US Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 bankruptcy for companies -- that is primarily because those Chapter 11 (reorg. bankruptcy) and Chapter 7 (liquidation bankruptcy) items are references to filings made under the US Bankruptcy Code and are only applicable where US Bankruptcy Code is of relevance to a legal jurisdiction/court.

While anyone can file whatever they wish, it doesn't mean they will necessarily get the outcome they wish.

I was about to book a trip on Malev using AA miles for November. Its a good thing I put that itinerary on Hold. Well I guess I got to look at BA to get to Eastern Europe.

I was about to book a trip on Malev using AA miles for November. Its a good thing I put that itinerary on Hold. Well I guess I got to look at BA to get to Eastern Europe.

Niki might be option to some destinations.

Quite shocking to see so many OW carriers in various stages of big trouble.I think of all the alliances, Star had the worst bout, for about 3-4 years starting about a decade ago, when Ansett, Air New Zealand, Air Canada, SAS, United, and US Airways were all in various stages of formal reorganization.

So the Hungarian government is trying to do for Malev something like what Switzerland did when making Swissair into Swiss?
Or the Belgian government Sabena into SN Brussels?

SN Brussels later merged with Virgin Express to form Brussels airlines, and then btw it became a subsidiary of Lufthansa.

Which brings up the question: Just how many of the smaller countries in Europe can afford to still have their own indepenent airline these days?

Malev is trying to shore up liqidity from customers by offering heavy TA incentives.

They sent out offers to TAs in Germany yesterday offering a 12% commission:

Malév: bis zu 12% Incentive bis Ende April

Die wichtigsten Informationen im Überblick:

- Verkaufszeitraum: 01. Februar bis 30. April 2012
- Incentivestaffelung wie folgt:
- Anwendbar auf alle von Malév durchgeführten Flüge auch auf MA Codeshare Flug Budapest- Paris- Budapest (ausgenommen sind Interline Flüge)
- Gültig für alle published fares und corporate discount fares (ausgenommen sind alle Nettotarife wie z.B. Veranstaltertarife, Gruppentarife etc.)
- Gültig für alle IATA Agenturen
- Wenn PNRs auch Segmente von anderen Fluggesellschaften oder Flugnummer MA3000-6999 enthalten, dann findet das Incentive keine Anwendung.
- Klassenmix: Bei zwei verschiedenen Buchungsklassen gilt der Prozentsatz der restriktiveren Klasse.

Beispiel:
B/T Klasse – 0%
I/M Klasse – 6%

Quite dodgy IMHO.

I was about to book a trip on Malev using AA miles for November. Its a good thing I put that itinerary on Hold. Well I guess I got to look at BA to get to Eastern Europe.

Or AB, AY, or IB.

Malev has stopped operations this morning at 6:00 am :(

I've got Malev return ticket to Istabul in June.... and now I can't reach Malev on provided phone numbers....Could anyone can advise what to do next?

Feb 3 (Reuters) - Hungarian flag-carrier Malev announced on Friday that it had stopped operating because its liquidity situation has become unsustainable and all its flights had been grounded as of 0500 GMT on Friday.

The airline had been placed under extraordinary protection from creditors and a receiver was appointed earlier this week.

Malev said its suppliers had lost confidence in the airline and started to demand payment, while the government could no longer provide cash injections for the company.

"This has accelerated the outflow of cash to such an extent, that by today the situation of the airline has become unsustainable," Malev's board said in a statement.

The stoppage comes after the airline was ordered by the European Commission last month to repay millions of dollars worth of state aid received between 2007 and 2010. (Reporting by Krisztina Than)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/03/malev-stoppage-idUSL5E8D30E920120203

Press release of Malév in English

www.bud.hu/english/budapest-airport/media/news/press-release-of-malev-zrt.-8954.html

6 am 03 February 2012 – Malév ceases its operation
Based on the Board of Dierctors’ decision Hungary’s National Airline ceased its operation to minimize its losses. According to this statement, after nearly 66 years of continuous operation, Malév aircrafts will not depart from 6 am 03 February.

Unfortunately, the event occurred which we had a greatest fear of and we wanted to avoid with might and main. Although, until the latter days there were prospects to continue operation and the trust of our passengers is unbroken, our partners lost their trust due to the information published in the last days and they started to ask for payment of their services in advance. This speeded up the cash outflow and the situation of the airline became untenable. It is also known that the owner, despite the best intentions, is unable to provide additional financial resources to operate after the EU decision. Considering all these the Board decided to order the cease of operation of the Hungary’s National Airline. We apologize to all of our passengers. - announced CEO Lorant Limburger.

The Call Centre informs the Airline’s passengers about the way how they can get to their destinations and the possibilities of compensation.

Passengers entitled to rerouting

According to the government regulation which entered into force on 31st January 2012, assistance can be provided to those passengers who purchased their valid tickets before Malév cease and whose travel dates are on the suspension day or on the following three calendar days. In addition, to those who already travelled to their destination on the suspension day or before and posses valid return tickets on Malév flights on a date not later than 29th Februray 2012. Those who are entitled are going to have assistance from Malév by rerouting their tickets to other flights or other modes of transportation."

So I wonder how to get the Govt to assist (pay?) for rerouted flights?

I've got Malev return ticket to Istabul in June.... and now I can't reach Malev on provided phone numbers....Could anyone can advise what to do next?

Contact bank that issued your credit card. Worked for me when SkyEurope went bust.

Malev didn't fill bankruptcy yet, it only ceased it's operations to stop losses.

Tickets issued for flights after Feb 29th are still "valid". They will probably be refunded by the new partner, if the hungarian government finds one, and Malev resumes operations at a later time.

Contact bank that issued your credit card. Worked for me when SkyEurope went bust.

UK Credit card purchasers are particularly well protected, under s.75 of the 1974 Consumer Credit Act. This can be less so for tickets bought with UK Debit cards. VISA debit cards are generally OK but you appear to be just another unsecured creditor if you used a Maestro-type card.

Outside the UK, Your Mileage Will Vary.

(Personal note: I got a refund, known as a chargeback, from Lloyds Bank for unused Speedferries Cross-Channel vouchers bought online with a Visa debit card, after Speedferries went t*ts-up. You may need to be persistent, though. Many bank branch staff are unaware of the debit card possibility.)

On one foreign site I also found this number for ticketed passengers: +36-1-802-11-11

Tickets issued for flights after Feb 29th are still "valid". They will probably be refunded by the new partner, if the hungarian government finds one, and Malev resumes operations at a later time.
MA is returning 9 of it's planes to ILFC today; that doesn't seem like "resuming operations at a later time" for me.


Anyone has any idea what happens with a mixed carrier ticket that has one MA leg on it under AA code?

MA is returning 9 of it's planes to ILFC today; that doesn't seem like "resuming operations at a later time" for me.


Anyone has any idea what happens with a mixed carrier ticket that has one MA leg on it under AA code?

AA should rebook you IMO, talk to them first. Trying to talk to MA is pointless.

6 am 03 February 2012 – Malév ceases its operation
Based on the Board of Dierctors’ decision Hungary’s National Airline ceased its operation to minimize its losses. According to this statement, after nearly 66 years of continuous operation, Malév aircrafts will not depart from 6 am 03 February.

Unfortunately, the event occurred which we had a greatest fear of and we wanted to avoid with might and main. Although, until the latter days there were prospects to continue operation and the trust of our passengers is unbroken, our partners lost their trust due to the information published in the last days and they started to ask for payment of their services in advance. This speeded up the cash outflow and the situation of the airline became untenable. It is also known that the owner, despite the best intentions, is unable to provide additional financial resources to operate after the EU decision. Considering all these the Board decided to order the cease of operation of the Hungary’s National Airline. We apologize to all of our passengers. - announced CEO Lorant Limburger.

The Call Centre informs the Airline’s passengers about the way how they can get to their destinations and the possibilities of compensation.

Passengers entitled to rerouting

According to the government regulation which entered into force on 31st January 2012, assistance can be provided to those passengers who purchased their valid tickets before Malév cease and whose travel dates are on the suspension day or on the following three calendar days. In addition, to those who already travelled to their destination on the suspension day or before and posses valid return tickets on Malév flights on a date not later than 29th Februray 2012. Those who are entitled are going to have assistance from Malév by rerouting their tickets to other flights or other modes of transportation."

So I wonder how to get the Govt to assist (pay?) for rerouted flights?

I am based in Hungary, right now in Finland and hold the return portion of a ticket for a HEL-BUD flight tomorrow. MA service center twice refused to offer any help, only telling that I can get the price of my original ticket after sending an e-mail to claims at malev dot hu. This is, of course, way below what a new ticket will cost me...

AA should rebook you IMO, talk to them first. Trying to talk to MA is pointless.
Problem is that it is the only AA segment too, and is in the middle of the ticket. :)

Latest news on potential partners - Wizz wants rights only but no assets, no takers yet by the looks of it but HNA might be tempted back. I'm meeting my father in BUD in March, looks like i'll have to tough it out with BA....

By Andras Gergely
Feb. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Wizz Air Ltd., a Budapest-based low-
cost airline, isn’t seeking to buy any assets from Malev Zrt.,
the bankrupt Hungarian state-owned carrier, Chief Executive
Officer Jozsef Varadi said.
Wizz Air wants to take over the rights to some Malev
routes, Varadi told reporters in Budapest today. Wizz Air aims
to increase its capacity in Hungary by 66 percent this year, he
said.

MA is returning 9 of it's planes to ILFC today; that doesn't seem like "resuming operations at a later time" for me.


Anyone has any idea what happens with a mixed carrier ticket that has one MA leg on it under AA code?It depends on the issuing carrier. If the carrier is MA, then the ticket has no value. Whether any other carrier on the ticket will accept you depends on whether, out of goodwill, they are going to let you fly for free (since they will get nothing themselves). If it is issued by another carrier, then you have a contract with that carrier and they should reroute you on another airline (or refund your ticket as the case may be).

I am based in Hungary, right now in Finland and hold the return portion of a ticket for a HEL-BUD flight tomorrow. MA service center twice refused to offer any help, only telling that I can get the price of my original ticket after sending an e-mail to claims at malev dot hu. This is, of course, way below what a new ticket will cost me...

Don't you have some kind of travel insurance which covers you in this case? Just make sure you keep your receipts!

If it is issued by another carrier, then you have a contract with that carrier and they should reroute you on another airline (or refund your ticket as the case may be).
It is so that's reassuring. Thank you! :D

Anyone has any idea what happens with a mixed carrier ticket that has one MA leg on it under AA code?Depends on the carrier that issued the ticket.

It depends on the issuing carrier. If the carrier is MA, then the ticket has no value. Whether any other carrier on the ticket will accept you depends on whether, out of goodwill, they are going to let you fly for free (since they will get nothing themselves). If it is issued by another carrier, then you have a contract with that carrier and they should reroute you on another airline (or refund your ticket as the case may be).

Not necesarily true. BA.com states that BA will honor Malev tickets on BA-operated segments.

Latest on other airelines filling the gap:http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120203-710081.html. Possible these names will provide special deals to honour previous MALEV tickets on the same routes?

BUDAPEST (Dow Jones)--Several airlines are to boost their Hungarian activities after national airline Malev terminating operations earlier Friday suspended operations earlier Friday under the weight of crippling debt.

Shortly after the announcement at 0500 GMT, Hungarian low-cost airline Wizz Air said it would expand its fleet by 66% and add two additional Airbus 320 craft to its fleet and said it was ready for further expansion if market conditions warrant it.

Hours later, Irish low-cost carrier Ryanair Holdings PLC (RYA.DB) also unveiled expansion plans, saying it would set up a Budapest base this month with a target of handling 2 million passengers within a year.

Other were quick to follow. Icelandair Group Holding (ICEAIR.RK) announced new flights to Budapest, Travel Service said it would launch a charter airline Smartwings, while Deutsche Lufthansa AG (LHA.XE) and British Airways, part of International Consolidated Airlines Group PLC (IAG.LN), said they are looking to expand their passenger capacities at Budapest airport.

"Looking at the market response, it's possible that there won't be an aggregate drop in passenger numbers in Budapest at the end of the year," state secretary at the development ministry Pal Volner said.

The fact that other airlines are looking to fill the gap left by Malev is good news for Budapest Airport Zrt., the airport's operator, which said Malev accounted for about 40% of the airport's passenger numbers.

Malev's situation became critical this week as it reached the end of its liquidity. The company was taken into bankruptcy protection Monday, with a finance controller appointed Thursday.

However, since its partners lost confidence that the company will survive, they started asking for payment upfront. A Malev plane was denied clearance for takeoff early Friday and the management said it didn't comply with demands to pay since it would have made a bad precedent and caused the company unbearable immediate costs.

"Unfortunately what we feared the most has come to pass, even though we did everything in our power to avoid it," Malev Chief Executive Lorant Limburger said in a press statement.

The airline has amassed a debt of 60 billion forints ($271.5 million). It has also been ordered to repay the government HUF100 billion of state aid after it was found in breach of European Union rules.

Don't you have some kind of travel insurance which covers you in this case? Just make sure you keep your receipts!

Travel insurance policies are close to useless in Hungary. I am insured through my credit card provider (Citibank, I have a co-branded Malév-Citibank card...), but this insurance - and practically no other policies available in my country - does not provide protection in this case. I could buy a relatively cheap (116 GBP) ticket on LH for the HEL - MUC (overnight in the terminal) - BUD route via ebookers.com. If I get anything back from Malév (or my bank, since I payed by credit card, but via a travel agent), I would not be that much off. My biggest lost would be my Sapphire status and the bonus points that I collected in the past two and a half years for a longhaul flight in F.

BTW, two questions in which some of you might provide suggestions:
Does my travel agent have any general obligation to help me? They are polite but refuse to do anything.

Will other OW airlines honour my Sapphire status? I have an upcoming trip on AA/BA, and would be nice to still get the perks. AA.com still allows me to select preferred seats.

Travel insurance policies are close to useless in Hungary. I am insured through my credit card provider (Citibank, I have a co-branded Malév-Citibank card...), but this insurance - and practically no other policies available in my country - does not provide protection in this case. I could buy a relatively cheap (116 GBP) ticket on LH for the HEL - MUC (overnight in the terminal) - BUD route via ebookers.com. If I get anything back from Malév (or my bank, since I payed by credit card, but via a travel agent), I would not be that much off. My biggest lost would be my Sapphire status and the bonus points that I collected in the past two and a half years for a longhaul flight in F.

BTW, two questions in which some of you might provide suggestions:
Does my travel agent have any general obligation to help me? They are polite but refuse to do anything.

Will other OW airlines honour my Sapphire status? I have an upcoming trip on AA/BA, and would be nice to still get the perks. AA.com still allows me to select preferred seats.

might want to use this offer http://wizzair.com/malev/
Not quite the same but a quite good fare and might get you out of the pinch you are in...
just an idea :)

might want to use this offer http://wizzair.com/malev/
Not quite the same but a quite good fare and might get you out of the pinch you are in...
just an idea :)

Thanks for the idea.
Although I hate flying with W6 (and especially since its CEO József Váradi is responsible for the present situation of MA in a lot of aspects), their site was one of the first sites that I visited after getting this piece of news. Their only route from Finland is from Turku, which I could reach easily, but unfortunately they only start this route on 31 March. Apparently they themselves did not realise this since their special offer is valid till 24 March, bud the BUD-TKU route is offered as a replacement for MA's BUD-HEL route.

Does my travel agent have any general obligation to help me? They are polite but refuse to do anything.
Even if they don't (or think they don't) have obligations you can just dispute the charge on your debit/credit card (assuming you paid with a card) and that should take care of the money issues. First you have to talk to your agent first and get their answer preferably in writing then ask Citi for a chargeback. Then Citi, your agent and what's left of MA or their liquidators will sort it out between themselves.

Even if they don't (or think they don't) have obligations you can just dispute the charge on your debit/credit card (assuming you paid with a card) and that should take care of the money issues. First you have to talk to your agent first and get their answer preferably in writing then ask Citi for a chargeback.

Thanks, that is what I will certainly do.

I am based in Hungary, right now in Finland and hold the return portion of a ticket for a HEL-BUD flight tomorrow. MA service center twice refused to offer any help, only telling that I can get the price of my original ticket after sending an e-mail to claims at malev dot hu. This is, of course, way below what a new ticket will cost me...

If you have travel insurance, they should cover abandonment. Not sure if credit card based insurance would, but my multi-trip policy does.

If money's an issue and not time, a flight tomorrow on Turkish (16 hours via IST) is only 218 euro. The more reasonable options are more than 800 euro. Craziness.

If you have travel insurance, they should cover abandonment. Not sure if credit card based insurance would, but my multi-trip policy does.

Usual travel insurance does not cover against bankruptcy. This has been extenively discussed today in Hungarian media.

Usual travel insurance does not cover against bankruptcy. This has been extenively discussed today in Hungarian media.

'Usual' TI doesn't but there are some types that do...

If money's an issue and not time, a flight tomorrow on Turkish (16 hours via IST) is only 218 euro. The more reasonable options are more than 800 euro. Craziness.

Yes, I've considered that option as well, but the one I finally booked for 116 GBP (approx. 150 EUR) looks better in many aspects: LH2465 (4 Feb, 19:00 HEL - MUC 20:40) - LH1676 (5 Feb, 11:00 MUC - BUD 12:15). This combinantion, however, was only available through ebookers.com; neither lufthansa.com, nor ITA Matrix listed it. I will try to stay at the airport for the night. I want to do it on an as tight budget as possible since I don't want to waste money because of the bad decisions of people responsible for MA. I still hope that I will get back some money either through my credit card provider or based on Government Decree 5/2012. (see MA "site"), but I want to minimise my losses in case not all my costs will be covered.

ONEWORLD's gotta catch up to STAR: Ansett, Varig and Spannair down the tubes. (Mexicana was once with STAR so could count too.) And AC's been through the Canadian version of Chapter 11, while US and UA were through that process once each, and CO twice!

If you have travel insurance, they should cover abandonment. Not sure if credit card based insurance would, but my multi-trip policy does.

As I mentioned earlier, insurance policies in Hungary are crap compared to those available in Western Europe. Most Hungarian travel insurance policies only cover health care issues, and otherwise what they only have is a long list of exceptions why they are not liable in a particular situation. I have discussed this topic with some of my colleagues in Western Europe, and standard insurance policies there seemed to give quite generous compensations even in cases where there are little evidence for the losses, like in case of a stolen wallet. Here, even the most expensive insurance doesn't pay a penny in that case.

In case other stranded people come here:

@airberlin: Wir bieten Fluggästen, die einen Flug mit #Malev gebucht haben, bis Mittwoch eine Umbuchung für 49 Euro auf ausgewählten Strecken an.


Basically, if you had a flight booked with Malev, airberlin is offering 49
euro tickets until Wednesday on selected routes.

Edit: more info:
http://www.airberlin.com/site/pressnews_dr.php?ID=3615&LANG=eng

Pretty fast response on the part of airberlin!

Dicey times for smaller carriers - we'll just end up with megacarriers that will, at some point, have financial difficulties, then we are all screwed.

Not necesarily true. BA.com states that BA will honor Malev tickets on BA-operated segments.It seems to me that you did not read the second sentence of my post before posting... :) BA are honouring MA-issued tickets for BA segments out of goodwill. If, as looks likely, MA goes into bankruptcy, BA are unlikely to ever receive any payment for these segments.

This are very sad news! Not just a great airline got lost but also my Emerald Status and tons of Miles.... :(

I know that BA and AY will honour MA issued Tickets. How about other Airlines in OW? Will they publish information soon too? I do have tickets issued by MA for flights wirh CX and QF. I do hope they will gonour the same as BA is doing.

For all off you in the same or even worse situation good luck!

Hate to see Malev disappear...now I have to rework my summer flights in east europe...maybe it's a good opportunity to try Air Berlin...

Hungary government had a chance to sell Malev to either Hainan Airlines or a Russian investor group. What a pity.

Hungary government had a chance to sell Malev to either Hainan Airlines or a Russian investor group. What a pity.

Hm? The Russian group puled out, and HU is back on the table, apparently. There's still some hope left, I presume.

Oneworld award ticket starting in May that includes in the middle, OTP-BUD-PRG. AA says if other flights cant be worked out, I have to start from scratch. Meaning I am at the mercy of award availability. I am not connecting in Madrid or London for that. Air Berlin doesnt fly to Prague. Finnair doesnt fly to OTP This is BS to me. They should allow exceptions in these cases. I should be able to skip these sectors and not risk cancellations. This isnt the first time with a bellyup carrier, MX did not too long ago. I will play the waiting game a little longer though for Malev it doesnt look good. Ryanair and WizzAir are swooping in with more flights. They couldnt make money before, will someone risk the investment when more customers are gone?

Malév website now has some more info. See below. I had a ticket for Feb 3 and bought another ticket. Does below means Malév might refund the cost of my other ticket?


"Dear Passengers
.
Concerning your travel, we suggest that you ask other airlines about their offers or, if possible, you choose an alternative method of transport.
.
As a consequence of the closure of scheduled Malév flights, you should proceed as follows in order to assert rights set down in Government Decree 5/2012. (I.31) (download available in edition 11 of Magyar Közlöny – 31 January 2012, available at http://www.magyarkozlony.hu/):
.
..........................
-........ If you fall under the provisions of Paragraph 2 (1) of Government Decree 5/2012. (I.31).
-........ that is, you purchased a ticket prior to closure of operations; and
-........ your ticket is for a flight between 3-6 February 2012, or you travelled out on the day of closure or prior to this, and you hold a valid ticket for a Malév scheduled flight operating with a Malév flight number, with the return date until 29 February 2012;. ..
-........ .
.
please send your claim for refund of costs to malev@malev.com or to the following address: 1476 Budapest, Postafiók 79. Please attach to the claim copies of all documents relevant to the travel since we are only able to assess the claim when in possession of these documents. You should ensure that all original documents are kept safe."

I had a ticket for Feb 3 and bought another ticket. Does below means Malév might refund the cost of my other ticket?
Yes. In theory.

Yes. In theory.

Thanks, yes not expecting much and for sure will take months, but will email them receipt. Thanks

It's insane: MALÉV has already been removed from oneworld.com as a member airline, even its logo is not present. Mexicana is still there, however...

It's insane: MALÉV has already been removed from oneworld.com as a member airline, even its logo is not present. Mexicana is still there, however...This is all quite confusing. There has been no news anywhere about either airline leaving oneworld, however the Malev logo is missing from the header, the airline page removed from the members section and from the FF program/lounge info section. More confusing, the page "oneworld at a glance" has a different list of members/member elects for each table... One table has Malev and Kingfisher listed at members with no Mexicana.

Hungary government had a chance to sell Malev to either Hainan Airlines or a Russian investor group. What a pity.


It was the action of the EU Commission that put the main nail in Malev's coffin. With the Euro crisis, hopefully we will soon hear of the EU Commission having ceased operations!!!!!

The info coming from malev is confusing. They write they will reimburse the ticket cost for those who have supposed to fly between feb 3-4. What about those flying later? Malev phone number is useless. Itls just recorded voice.

Shall I book another airline meanwhile without malev's approval that they compensate to me..... Such a disappointment with national carrier. You can't rely on anything in this country

The info coming from malev is confusing. They write they will reimburse the ticket cost for those who have supposed to fly between feb 3-4. What about those flying later? Malev phone number is useless. Itls just recorded voice.

Shall I book another airline meanwhile without malev's approval that they compensate to me..... Such a disappointment with national carrier. You can't rely on anything in this country

I would advise you book with another carrier and not rely on compensation from Malév.

BAH

It was the action of the EU Commission that put the main nail in Malev's coffin. With the Euro crisis, hopefully we will soon hear of the EU Commission having ceased operations!!!!!

Rubbish. It was the action of the Hungarian government in continually propping up a carrier that was not commercially viable that made the EU Commission take the actions it did. EU rules on state aid are quite clear; if Hungary does not want to abide by EU rules then it should leave the European Union.

If you want to blame anyone blame the Hungarian government for illegally propping up Malev and blame Malev for being poorly run.

BAH

ONEWORLD's gotta catch up to STAR: Ansett, Varig and Spannair down the tubes. (Mexicana was once with STAR so could count too.) And AC's been through the Canadian version of Chapter 11, while US and UA were through that process once each, and CO twice!

MX was doing reasonably well in Star, then they wanted to be independent so left Star. Once independent, they made so many stupid decision (daily LGW-MEX flight with ancient B767's, MAD flights, MTY hub with super costly CRJ fleet, aircraft re-painting, new uniforms, MEX T1 re-modeling etc.) and they thought oneWorld membership would save them... And apparently alliance membership cannot save any airline from bankruptcy... EK does extremely well not being in any alliance...

If you want to blame anyone blame the Hungarian government for illegally propping up Malev and blame Malev for being poorly run.

+1!

The info coming from malev is confusing. They write they will reimburse the ticket cost for those who have supposed to fly between feb 3-4. What about those flying later?You'll join the long list of creditors like in any bankruptcy... Not sure about Malev's financial position but you might get back a few percent of your ticket price.

And apparently alliance membership cannot save any airline from bankruptcy...

I completely agree. Kingfisher doesn't seem to be able to comprehend this though...

I was looking forward to trying Malev (and Iberia) on a RTW for myself and award for my partner. Very sad news. We were lucky, in that we found IB flights to go from ARN to TLV to replace the MA ones, that had business award availability, and it's a (barely) legal connection in TLV to our other tickets. In our case, no need for protection, but EXP desk said AA is trying to secure protection agreements with other OW carriers and hopes to have news after February 7th.

QF is transporting pax on MA tickets - if they can make their own way to the QF operated flight.

Due to the grounding of Malev Hungarian Airlines, the following Qantas marketed and Malev Hungarian Airlines operated flights will cease operations:

QF3979 - Frankfurt to Budapest.
QF3980 - Budapest to Frankfurt.

The following options are available to Qantas customers holding a valid ticket issued on/before 3 February 2012 who are affected by the grounding of Malev Hungarian Airlines.

For customers holding a Qantas (081) issued ticket:

Passengers may, without fee:
Reroute/Rebook travel

Reroute to/from Budapest via London using British Airways (BA) flights between Budapest and London, and Qantas/British Airways flights between London and Singapore/Australia.
For customers needing to travel between Budapest and Frankfurt, or if via London option is not available, Re-book travel between Budapest and Frankfurt using Lufthansa (LH) flights.
If above options are not available, Re-route to/from Budapest via Helsinki using Finnair (AY) between Budapest and Helsinki, connecting onto Qantas marketed and Finnair operated flights between Helsinki and Singapore (QF3874/QF3875).
Return to the origin port via the most direct routing using Qantas (including Qantas marketed and British Airways operated) flights.

Change Destinations

The value of the existing ticket can be used towards the purchase of a new ticket. If the new fare is more expensive than the existing ticketed fare, the fare difference is payable by the passenger. Applicable surcharges, fees and taxes may apply.

Retain the value in credit

Retain the value of the ticket in credit for future travel within 12 months from the original ticketed date of departure. If the new fare is more expensive than the existing ticketed fare, the fare difference is payable by the passenger. Applicable ticket surcharges, fees and taxes may apply.

Refunds

For customers who have commenced their journey a full refund of the affected sector(s) will be available.
For customers who have not commenced their journey a full refund will be available.

Conditions

All changes must be made prior to the original ticketed departure.
New travel dates must be within ticket validity.
Re-booking on Qantas (QF), British Airways (BA) and Finnair (AY) flights - If the same booking class is not available, the lowest booking class within the same cabin may be booked (eg within Business or Economy cabin).
Re-booking on Lufthansa (LH) flights - Customers ticketed in Business cabin must be re-booked in Z class and subject to availability. Customers ticketed in Economy cabin must be re-booked in S class (If S class is not available, V class may be used).
Qantas will not be responsible for paying any other costs or expenses such as hotel or other ground operator fees arising due to events beyond our control, unless required by applicable laws.
All other rules and conditions of the ticket remain unchanged.
Refunds requests must be submitted no later than 31 March 2012.

For customers holiding a ticket issued by another carrier (non-081) EXCEPT Malev Hungarian Airlines (182):

Passengers may, without fee:
Reroute/Rebook travel

Reroute to/from Budapest via London using British Airways (BA) flights between Budapest and London, and Qantas/British Airways flights between London and Singapore/Australia.
Return to the origin port via the most direct routing using Qantas (including Qantas marketed and British Airways operated) flights.

For customers holding a ticket issued by Malev Hungarian Airlines (182):

Passengers who have not commenced travel should refer to Malev Hungarian Airlines. If customers are able to make their own arrangement to join their ticketed Qantas marketed and operated flights (eg. QF5 and QF6), Qantas will be uplifting Malev customers holding (182) tickets for these flights.

For customers who have commenced travel, Qantas will uplift customers on their ticketed Qantas marketed and operated flights (eg. QF5 and QF6) only. Customers will need to refer to Malev Hungarian Airlines or the operating carrier for other ticketed segments where Qantas is not the operating carrier.

For customers with un-ticketed bookings:

For un-ticketed bookings, alternate routings can be rebooked subject to availability and tickets issued in accordance with fare conditions.

For customers on Frequent Flyer Award Tickets:

Passengers booked on Qantas flights (including Qantas codeshare flights operated by Jetstar) who are travelling on Qantas & Partner Classic Award and Qantas & Jetstar Any Seat Award tickets are entitled to the same options and conditions as listed above.

Note: Passengers on partner airline services are able to re-book or re-route subject to redemption seat availability only.

It's insane: MALÉV has already been removed from oneworld.com as a member airline, even its logo is not present. Mexicana is still there, however...and now they are back on the site.

Rubbish. It was the action of the Hungarian government in continually propping up a carrier that was not commercially viable that made the EU Commission take the actions it did. EU rules on state aid are quite clear; if Hungary does not want to abide by EU rules then it should leave the European Union.

If you want to blame anyone blame the Hungarian government for illegally propping up Malev and blame Malev for being poorly run.

BAH

Absolute nonsense! The Hungarian government was the OWNER of Malev. When arrogant bureaucrats arbitrarily rule that an owner, even if it is a government, cannot invest in its business, then those bureaucrats have way too much power and need to go! The EU Commission is beginning to remind me a lot of the old Warsaw Pact in its behavior.

Absolute nonsense! The Hungarian government was the OWNER of Malev. When arrogant bureaucrats arbitrarily rule that an owner, even if it is a government, cannot invest in its business, then those bureaucrats have way too much power and need to go! The EU Commission is beginning to remind me a lot of the old Warsaw Pact in its behavior.You haven't got the remotest clue of state aid law, have you? Ever heard of the "private investor principle" in state aid, by any chance?
A state or other public authority is entirely free to invest in a business if it wishes. What it cannot do, however, is use its investment to distort the functioning of the market by propping up a business which should have gone to the wall and is artificially kept alive by cash injections that a private investor would not do. When that happens, this will be regarded by EU courts as illegal state aid under EU law. And where there is illegal state aid, it is standard operating procedure for the Commission to require that aid to be paid back by the undertaking which has unlawfully benefitted from such aid.

The fact that you personally might be unaware of these state aid law principles does not stop them from being firmly established principles which the Hungarian government was fully aware of when it joined the EU.

Your reference to the old Warsaw pact just shows how little knowledge and understanding you have of the matter since what the Commission is doing here is precisely enforcing market discipline on states that attempt to distort it.

The fact that you personally might be unaware of these state aid law principles does not stop them from being firmly established principles which the Hungarian government was fully aware of when it joined the EU.

Your reference to the old Warsaw pact just shows how little knowledge and understanding you have of the matter since what the Commission is doing here is precisely enforcing market discipline on states that attempt to distort it.

^ Good post. Educational, even!

You haven't got the remotest clue of state aid law, have you? Ever heard of the "private investor principle" in state aid, by any chance?
A state or other public authority is entirely free to invest in a business if it wishes. What it cannot do, however, is use its investment to distort the functioning of the market by propping up a business which should have gone to the wall and is artificially kept alive by cash injections that a private investor would not do. When that happens, this will be regarded by EU courts as illegal state aid under EU law. And where there is illegal state aid, it is standard operating procedure for the Commission to require that aid to be paid back by the undertaking which has unlawfully benefitted from such aid.

The fact that you personally might be unaware of these state aid law principles does not stop them from being firmly established principles which the Hungarian government was fully aware of when it joined the EU.

Your reference to the old Warsaw pact just shows how little knowledge and understanding you have of the matter since what the Commission is doing here is precisely enforcing market discipline on states that attempt to distort it.

+1 ^

For what it's worth:

MA was burning some 100m HUF/day* of Hungarian Gov't "loan" in Nov-Dec/2011

* 320k€/day

A state or other public authority is entirely free to invest in a business if it wishes. What it cannot do, however, is use its investment to distort the functioning of the market by propping up a business which should have gone to the wall and is artificially kept alive by cash injections that a private investor would not do. When that happens, this will be regarded by EU courts as illegal state aid under EU law. And where there is illegal state aid, it is standard operating procedure for the Commission to require that aid to be paid back by the undertaking which has unlawfully benefitted from such aid.

It kinda begs the question: how does the European Commission determine whether or not something is considered as "illegal" state aid? It didn't seem clear to me when the news broke out that MA had to pay back such aid to the Hungarian government.

It kinda begs the question: how does the European Commission determine whether or not something is considered as "illegal" state aid? It didn't seem clear to me when the news broke out that MA had to pay back such aid to the Hungarian government.I'm not sure it begs the question, but it does raise it. :D

It kinda begs the question: how does the European Commission determine whether or not something is considered as "illegal" state aid? It didn't seem clear to me when the news broke out that MA had to pay back such aid to the Hungarian government.
It really is simple: to set up or to reorganize a business the state can give aid it to it. However it is not allowed to pay for the day-by-day running costs. MA was being "reorganized" by the powers that be for as long as I can remember (6+ years lol).

You haven't got the remotest clue of state aid law, have you? Ever heard of the "private investor principle" in state aid, by any chance?
A state or other public authority is entirely free to invest in a business if it wishes. What it cannot do, however, is use its investment to distort the functioning of the market by propping up a business which should have gone to the wall and is artificially kept alive by cash injections that a private investor would not do. When that happens, this will be regarded by EU courts as illegal state aid under EU law. And where there is illegal state aid, it is standard operating procedure for the Commission to require that aid to be paid back by the undertaking which has unlawfully benefitted from such aid.

The fact that you personally might be unaware of these state aid law principles does not stop them from being firmly established principles which the Hungarian government was fully aware of when it joined the EU.

Your reference to the old Warsaw pact just shows how little knowledge and understanding you have of the matter since what the Commission is doing here is precisely enforcing market discipline on states that attempt to distort it.

What absolute hypocrisy for an organization that itself or through its institutions is doing a much bigger bailout of Greece, EU banks, etc.

The iron fist of the EU coming down on Malev and Hungary is not too different from the way the iron fist of the Warsaw pact used to come down on its members.

The EU has a clear double standard when it comes to bailouts and Malev got screwed. But, yeah, maybe Hungary should have considered that when it joined the EU. If it had stayed on the outside like Norway and Switzerland, it would not be having this problem and would not have to deal with the petty tyranny of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

Malev was a decent airline and convenient for this part of the world. As far as I am concerned, the EU bureaucracy murdered it, and I suspect that the EU hierarchy's running spat with the current government of Hungary probably had something to do with the motivation.

Malev was a decent airline and convenient for this part of the world. As far as I am concerned, the EU bureaucracy murdered it, and I suspect that the EU hierarchy's running spat with the current government of Hungary probably had something to do with the motivation.

BS. In 2006 the EC ordered Italian government to stop propping up Alitalia, and in 2008 that company went into liquidation.

Malév was/is insolvent, perhaps some parts of the company can be salvaged (as happened with Alitalia).

The EU has a clear double standard when it comes to bailouts and Malev got screwed. But, yeah, maybe Hungary should have considered that when it joined the EU. If it had stayed on the outside like Norway and Switzerland, it would not be having this problem and would not have to deal with the petty tyranny of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

Malev was a decent airline and convenient for this part of the world. As far as I am concerned, the EU bureaucracy murdered it, and I suspect that the EU hierarchy's running spat with the current government of Hungary probably had something to do with the motivation.The most important bit of the EU is that the internal market keeps functioning. Part of this is that state aid to companies is illegal, unless it follows clearly spelled out principles. Otherwise, the more efficient, but non-subsidised carriers might go bankrupt because the inefficient, subsidised carrier stays in business although it would have exited the market otherwise.

As to Hungary being singled out - this just shows you don't know what you are talking about. Every year, there are many decisions by the European Commission that force companies to repay illegally received state aid. And these decisions cover many countries, including Germany, France and Italy.

PS: These rules were not made by a "petty tyranny of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" but jointly by the elected governments of the member states. The decision on a case-by-case basis is taken by the Commissioners, which are appointed by the elected governments of the member states.

As far as I am concerned, the EU bureaucracy murdered it, and I suspect that the EU hierarchy's running spat with the current government of Hungary probably had something to do with the motivation.

You cannot murder something that is not alive.

Malev was being propped up by the state. That is not allowed under EU rules. The EU told them not to do it and instructed Malev to repay the money. Malev went bust thus demonstrating that it was unable to survive without state intervention.

Nobody forced Hungary to join the EU - as I recall Hungary was desperate to join. You were quite happy to accept the vast quantities of EU aid that poured into Hungary, but it seems you don't want to accept the rules that govern belonging to this particular club.

Your reference to the EU's spat with the current regime neglects to mention that the EU's objections are, again, because your government is not adhering to some of the fundamental principals that the EU espouses. But fascist governments are seldom too concerned with petty things like human rights.

BAH

Just a little nudge to posters to keep it civil and on-topic. Political discussions are more than welcome on the OMNI/PR board. Here, not so much.

Gardyloo
Oneworld moderator

Malev was being propped up by the state. That is not allowed under EU rules.

Under EU rules as practiced, an airline being propped up in some forms by the state is allowed even as being propped up in other forms by the state in other forms is not allowed. The EC is rather consistent about its approach when it comes to airlines in the EU states, but it is not consistent in disallowing all forms of state-propping up of airlines.

There were ways that Malev was being propped up by the state which were not allowed, and eventually the government accepted the pressure from the EC over this matter of disallowed assistance for Malev.

Just out of curiosity, was Malev giving OW elite status to government officials even when not meeting published elite status criteria in its program? Like US airlines dealing with government officials, Scandinavia's SK does a lot of that (i.e. handing out elite status to the chattering class elites in government and beyond it) too.

Hi, i have two American Airlines multicity ticket on August - BUD-JFK/MIA-BUD. Unfortunately purchased from Malev (begins 182). You do not know what is the chance to exchange tickets for AA? In local AA office (czech republic) dont know - said it is in negotiations.

Hi, i have two American Airlines multicity ticket on August - BUD-JFK/MIA-BUD. Unfortunately purchased from Malev (begins 182). You do not know what is the chance to exchange tickets for AA? In local AA office (czech republic) dont know - said it is in negotiations.see http://www.aa.com/intl/hu/newsAndPr_en/malevSuspension.jsp

"If you have a ticket issued by Malev with an AA flight:

American Airlines will honour these tickets for the AA flight. If you have other airlines in your itinerary, please contact each airline directly as AA will not be able to make changes to the other airline flights."

I assume this refers to AA operated flights.

That's what I read, but local ticket agency told me that it still does not change the tickets and further procedure in question.

That's what I read, but local ticket agency told me that it still does not change the tickets and further procedure in question.local ticket agency of which airline? which procedure? why would you want to change tickets?

My reading is that you simply turn up for your flight - you might want to confirm with AA though.

Hi, i have two American Airlines multicity ticket on August - BUD-JFK/MIA-BUD. Unfortunately purchased from Malev (begins 182). You do not know what is the chance to exchange tickets for AA? In local AA office (czech republic) dont know - said it is in negotiations.I was under the impression that AA had decided not to resume flights to BUD following MA's collapse, in which case you would have to get reimbursement from MA (which is unlikely to come through), unless AA lets you fly from an alternative airport intead of BUD. This is a long shot, imo. In any event, speak to AA and see what they say.

I bought the ticket for a online ticket sale (pelikan.cz). Tickets are subject to "Malev" - PRG-BUD, BUD-JFK, MIA, JFK, JFK-BUD, BUD-PRG. Flights Malev plane BUD-PRG/PRG-BUD - come on you, which I would not mind to either arrived by bus. But the rest of the tickets should be for the plane AA (code share partner). And for those I care about what is the chance to exchange for tickets starting number 001 (AA). The site, although the AA says that you recognize the ticket but for now this is true whether it will pay in August is the question. P.S. sorry for bad English, it is not my native language

As I said, check whether the AA flights between BUD and JFK still operate. I believe that they no longer do.

As I said, check whether the AA flights between BUD and JFK still operate. I believe that they no longer do.
AA has definitely cancelled all future flights between JFK and BUD. Here's the main thread in the AA forum:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-aadvantage/1311589-aa-discontinue-jfk-bud-add-fourth-dfw-lhr-flight.html

and here's an AA page that mentions it:

http://www.aa.com/intl/hu/newsAndPr_en/pr_cancel.jsp

Curiously, that AA page gives general reasons like oil prices and the economy, and doesn't mention the obvious specific reason that it's because it lost its onward connection partner Malev, and without Malev, this AA route would never have been chosen in the first place.

http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2012/02/10/hungarys-malev-will-be-missed/#axzz1m1HaYiBP

FT blog article on Malév routes that other airlines won't pick up.

It's insane: MALÉV has already been removed from oneworld.com as a member airline, even its logo is not present. Mexicana is still there, however...Apparently Mexicana is still a member:
Mexicana Airlines is expected to make its official exit from the grouping in the coming weeks, some 18 months after the Mexican carrier ceased operations.

Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577204912744564718.html?m od=dist_smartbrief

QF is transporting pax on MA tickets - if they can make their own way to the QF operated flight.

Thanks for the info, very useful as I was booked on a QF Ticket issued by MALEV... however now the QF flight got cancelled and QF is not willing to reroute my Ticket. I've booked trough MALEV, therefore QF is saying they can't reroute me at this point. QF is willing to honor MALEV issued Tickets, however now as they cancelled the SIN-BOM flight they are not willing in doing anything. I was asked to contact MALEV, as they shall still be able to modify the Ticket. Do you think that's true? Shall I reach out to MALEV? Will they still be able to reroute me? I don't think so...

Shouldn't QF be responsible now to have me rebooked as they CX the route and provided previously the infos they will honor MALEV issued Tickets?

Thank you for any advice!

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Thanks for the info, very useful as I was booked on a QF Ticket issued by MALEV... however now the QF flight got cancelled and QF is not willing to reroute my Ticket. I've booked trough MALEV, therefore QF is saying they can't reroute me at this point. QF is willing to honor MALEV issued Tickets, however now as they cancelled the SIN-BOM flight they are not willing in doing anything. I was asked to contact MALEV, as they shall still be able to modify the Ticket. Do you think that's true? Shall I reach out to MALEV? Will they still be able to reroute me? I don't think so...

Shouldn't QF be responsible now to have me rebooked as they CX the route and provided previously the infos they will honor MALEV issued Tickets?

Thank you for any advice!
So you were going to be on QF51 after early May? QF is rerouting people onto CX from HKG or onto 9W operated QF coded flights from SIN, but since you're on a MA ticket, QF won't be getting any money from MA with which to pay another airline for the rerouting. QF is willing to transport ticketed MA pax on QF metal for free (as MA won't be paying them for it).

Indeed I was booked on QF51.

I dont get the one that QF will be flying for free. MA issued the Tickets quite a time ago. When does QF be supposed to get paid, only after they flown the booked leg? Is this the way airlines handle it? If so they have always an huge risk as no matter wich partner may close before they get paid?

As QF is rerouting PAX to a "partner" Airline they shall have special agreements with them in place in order to reroute booked PAX also for holders of awardtickets. Therfore a rerouting shall be fine in my point of view....

Indeed I was booked on QF51.

I dont get the one that QF will be flying for free. MA issued the Tickets quite a time ago. When does QF be supposed to get paid, only after they flown the booked leg? Is this the way airlines handle it? If so they have always an huge risk as no matter wich partner may close before they get paid?

As QF is rerouting PAX to a "partner" Airline they shall have special agreements with them in place in order to reroute booked PAX also for holders of awardtickets. Therfore a rerouting shall be fine in my point of view....

Interline accounting is done on an 'availed' basis, ie as the 'coupon' is used.

While it may seem strange this really is the only practical way to do it. If you consider a flexible RTW ticket, the routing ( and carriers) could change several times between the time the ticket is first issued and when the sectors are actually flown, on the other hand, once a sector has been flown it cannot be 'unflown'. The accounting is complicated enough without constantly advancing and reclaiming funds every time a ticket is reissued.

The end result I am sorry to say is almost certainly bad news for you.... as a goodwill gesture QF may have been willing to allow you to fly on their own aircraft 'for free' but they are highly unlikely to pay another airline to fly you when they have not received ( and will not receive) any payment themselves.

...Just dispute the charge on your card and buy a new ticket. QF will not reroute you on their own dime.

I was asked to contact MALEV, as they shall still be able to modify the Ticket. Do you think that's true? Shall I reach out to MALEV? Will they still be able to reroute me? I don't think so...

MA was removed from all the booking systems on 3 February in the morning. They are not able to modify (probably even see) 182- coded tickets.

Just dispute the charge on your card and buy a new ticket. QF will not reroute you on their own dime.

Based on some background knowledge, I guess Atlantico is talking about an award ticket. Except for the taxes, obviously not enough for a new ticket, nothing can be claimed back in that case.

This particular Ticket was not based on award Ticket...

MA is still able to see their issued Tickets. Just had a call with MA and they were able to check....

http://www.oneworld.com/news-information/oneworldnews/details/?objectID=28487

Members of Malév Hungarian Airlines Duna Club are able to retain their oneworld frequent flyer status, thanks to special offers being made by a number of the alliance's other airlines.

With Malév suspending all services indefinitely earlier this month (for further details, click here), Finnair and Japan Airlines are inviting Duna Club members to switch frequent flyer programmes, and enjoy the same level of services and benefits within the oneworld programme to which they were entitled as Malév Duna Club members. So too is airberlin, which will join oneworld on 20 March.
This means that:

Malév Duna Club Platinum cardholders are being offered Platinum membership of Finnair Plus, Japan Airlines JAL Mileage Bank (JMB) Diamond or the equivalent tier in airberlin's topbonus scheme, enabling them to retain their top level Emerald status in oneworld.

Malév Duna Club Gold members can transfer to Finnair Plus Gold, Japan Airlines JMB Sapphire or the equivalent airberlin topbonus tier, enabling them to continue to enjoy oneworld Sapphire services and benefits.

Malév Duna Club Silver members can transfer to Finnair Plus Silver, Japan Airlines JMB Crystal or the equivalent airberlin topbonus tier, enabling them to continue to enjoy oneworld Ruby services and benefits.

New information appeared on malev.com for those passengers who either had tickets for the 3-6 February period or have completed their outbound leg before the grounding, but originally held a ticket for a return MA flight before 29 February.

Dear Passenger,
Pursuant to Decree No. 5/2012. (I. 31.) of the Government of Hungary, qualifying passengers are entitled to compensation of their costs incurred as a result of the cessation of Malév’s operation at 6.00 am on 3 February 2012. Please note that Government Decree No. 5/2012. (I. 31.) applies to private individuals only, and it is not applicable in the following cases:
• claims for refund of any unused Malév flight tickets,
• claims for compensation under Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004.
If your claim falls in any of the above categories, please proceed as per the instructions published on Malév’s website (www.malev.com).
You qualify for compensation under the Government Decree only, if you meet the following criteria:
• your valid Malév flight ticket was purchased before 3 February 2012, and
• your Malév flight ticket entitled you to travel between 3 and 6 February 2012, or
• you made your outward journey on or before 3 February 2012 and you have a return ticket for a Malév flight scheduled for a date not later than 29 February 2012.
or
• you are holding a free or reduced fare ticket which is not available directly or indirectly to the public or, if your ticket was bought solely in exchange for Malév frequent flyer Duna Club points and, you made your outward journey on or before 3 February 2012 and you have a return ticket for a Malév flight scheduled for a date not later than 6 February 2012.
The following costs shall be reimbursed on condition that they are duly documented and have been incurred in direct connection with your reasonable travel arrangements to your original destination and/or to your original port of departure:
• re-booking to alternative flights, or purchase of new flight tickets
• use of alternative transportation
• meals and refreshments in reasonable proportion to the waiting time
• hotel accommodation if a stay of one or more nights became necessary
• transportation between the airport and the accommodation.

In order to access the claims form visit igeny.malev.com (http://igeny.malev.com) (igeny is Hungarian for claim).