Finnair Plus - Frustrated by Finnair Fares

I've been planning a RT trip from HEL to PRG Dec 30/Jan 1 and I keep on seeing the fares around 370-425 Euro per person and the flights are 2/3rds empty. I go on Expedia and find a $388 RT fare (all inclusive) ticketed by Czech Airlines, OPERATED by FINNAIR! I'd like to get the miles from this flight, but it's not worth $110 to $170 more per person! :mad: Just venting...

and the flights are 2/3rds empty.

Where You can see loads for those flights?

Where You can see loads for those flights?

ExpertFlyer.com has the seat maps for a bunch of airline seat maps as well as availability of awards etc. Mind you this is not fully accurate for loads, but directionally correct, especially for flights that are unlikely to have a lot of connecting passengers coming from other flights where seats might not be assigned until the day of.

If EF's seat map shows 2/3 full i would consider the plane pretty much filled. I don't fly AY but with other airlines seat maps don't tell the whole truth. I use EF's availability tool + seat map to paint some kind of picture about the loads but i have found that it doesn't reveal the whole picture like you pointed out.

One should note that a fair number (if not most) on-line travel agents do not offer seat selection as part of the booking process. Of course, a frequent traveller would know that it's easy to visit Finnair site and pick up the seats using manage my booking, but I would be surprised if very many occasional holiday trip bookers would know that.

Hence, there are probably several bookings with unassigned seats (until check-in) that do not show on the seat map.

One should note that a fair number (if not most) on-line travel agents do not offer seat selection as part of the booking process. Of course, a frequent traveller would know that it's easy to visit Finnair site and pick up the seats using manage my booking, but I would be surprised if very many occasional holiday trip bookers would know that.

Hence, there are probably several bookings with unassigned seats (until check-in) that do not show on the seat map.

Exactly and it varies quite a lot in my experience. If it shows 2/3 full now and there is almost a month to the date when OP is flying i would consider the flight quite busy. EF's availability tool might confirm that suspicion.

I fully agree the frustration with ticket prices even this example is a bit different. I have flewn e.g. from Seoul to HEL with cost of economy ticket of appr. 2300e. Then got an point upgrade, sat with an german guy who had bought an business ticket with 1700e. This must be because of marketing strategy. Still I feel unfairness when flying with the national airline, being a loyal customer and suffering of less attractive prices than somebody else. Also some time ago I came with the same flight with an couple from LHR heading to Beijing. They told they bought business tickets from LHR-HEL-Beijing with appr.2000e. I could not even dream of getting business tickets with this price from Helsinki to Beijing. Marketing magnic...

Also some time ago I came with the same flight with an couple from LHR heading to Beijing. They told they bought business tickets from LHR-HEL-Beijing with appr.2000e. I could not even dream of getting business tickets with this price from Helsinki to Beijing. Marketing magnic...

Try booking with LH via FRA or BA via LHR. ;)

How many seats are sold is a marginally useful metric at best. The metric is how many seats are sold at what fare. It's possible to fly an aircraft at a profit with 20% of the seats sold at top fares, but to lose money on a sold out flight with 95% of pax flying in deep discount. Hence, why carriers are cutting capacity even when flights are relatively full.

Carriers don't release those stats because it's proprietary.

Try booking with LH via FRA or BA via LHR. ;)
Or try booking LH from FRA or BA from LHR before condemning AY.

I think there was a reason why the couple flying from LHR to PEK chose to connect in Helsinki instead of flying direct in Club World, and no I'm not talking about the Via Spa.

Or try booking LH from FRA or BA from LHR before condemning AY.

I think there was a reason why the couple flying from LHR to PEK chose to connect in Helsinki instead of flying direct in Club World, and no I'm not talking about the Via Spa.

So true.

I vote also with my wallet - AY is in a near-total boycott for me. Meanwhile I will have built up 3 (!) Star Alliance Gold levels this year - LH SEN, BD DC and SK EBG by the end of the year, mainly in longhaul premium cabins - probably AY would also like to fill those seats.

9-10 hours in the back of the AY bus (grrr) or 12 hours in the front of LH or SK for the same money - anyone can make their own decisions, mine is clear. But AY pricing can be useful - I can always prove why my flying in C is cheaper than flying in Y :D

I guess AY has their own strategy and I have my own. As long as theirs is as it is now, the two overlaps very rarely. To put it bluntly - if they diss me, I diss them back :)

* before anybody asks why - SK for their no YQ redemptions with very good burning ratio intra-Scandinavia + HEL fast track, BD DC for their generally very good burn ratio and LH for the most meaningful status and very good longhaul availability for M&M SEN.

May I bluntly ask for the destinations and prices you guys can book longhaul C on LH and SK?

Prices out of "home-hub" is always more expensive, so you will get a better price on SK out of HEL via CPH than directly out of CPH, that will always be true. But finding C-fares on SK and LH that "always" is cheaper than AY Y?!?

A quick sample HEL-TYO on AY in Y says 853€, and HEL-CPH-TYO on SK in C says 2741€. (SK seems to sell ONLY business flex, I cannot find any business discount fares at all).

As I often bench AY against LH and SK on longhaul C if am genuinely interested in how you book SK and LH on competitive prices, I have never found any of them to be competitive in C!

Jan 11th - 18th approx

Biz fares

LHR-NRT

LH 3,923 EUR
BA 3,680 EUR
AY 2,798 EUR

HEL-NRT

LH 3,326 EUR
BA 2,648 EUR
AY 4,157 EUR

FRA-NRT

LH 3,804 EUR
BA 2,658 EUR
AY 3,484 EUR

I'd say HEL doesn't have it so bad!

Jan 11th - 18th approx

Biz fares

LHR-NRT

LH 3,923 EUR
BA 3,680 EUR
AY 2,798 EUR

HEL-NRT

LH 3,326 EUR
BA 2,648 EUR
AY 4,157 EUR

FRA-NRT

LH 3,804 EUR
BA 2,658 EUR
AY 3,484 EUR

I'd say HEL doesn't have it so bad!

Believe me Sir, It's bad!

May I bluntly ask for the destinations and prices you guys can book longhaul C on LH and SK?


November actual flown fares

ARN-ZRH-BKK//SIN-CPH-HEL - 2400€ in C (outbound LX, inbound SK) (and yes, LX upgraded to F on the long haul leg! ^) (to this fare add the 43€ spent on HEL-ARN oneway on DK)

HEL-LHR-NRT-LHR-HEL - 2200€ in VS Upper Class (feeder with BA codeshare on AY metal!!)

Typical HEL-xxx-NRT fares were in the 2200-2600€ range on OS, but OS stopped the HEL-VIE route last month so it's not so exciting anymore.

The same routes would have been the same price ex-HEL on AY with flexible Y

Jan 11th - 18th approx
Biz fares

HEL-NRT

LH 3,326 EUR
BA 2,648 EUR
AY 4,157 EUR

I'd say HEL doesn't have it so bad!

In my view - 1500€ difference between AY and BA fare is rather a lot.

Your examples do however prove, that home base pax are usually taken for suckers by each and every airline, but being HEL-based I care about how AY plays me - and enjoy the competition vying for my euros.

November actual flown fares

ARN-ZRH-BKK//SIN-CPH-HEL - 2400€ in C (outbound LX, inbound SK) (and yes, LX upgraded to F on the long haul leg! ^) (to this fare add the 43€ spent on HEL-ARN oneway on DK)

HEL-LHR-NRT-LHR-HEL - 2200€ in VS Upper Class (feeder with BA codeshare on AY metal!!)

Typical HEL-xxx-NRT fares were in the 2200-2600€ range on OS, but OS stopped the HEL-VIE route last month so it's not so exciting anymore.

The same routes would have been the same price ex-HEL on AY with flexible Y

Yeah, home-base is always worst...

Actually flow october; AY C; GOT-HEL-NRT 2690€

SK offered; GOT-CPH-NRT 3012€
and directly out of CPH: CPH-NRT 3516€

I guess we will just have to keep using each-other's flag carrier :D

In my view - 1500€ difference between AY and BA fare is rather a lot.

Your examples do however prove, that home base pax are usually taken for suckers by each and every airline, but being HEL-based I care about how AY plays me - and enjoy the competition vying for my euros.

I agree but no doubt that high difference is because ex HEL customers are willing to pay that 1500€ to fly nonstop otherwise the difference would be less.

AY looses for their silly pricing scheme also my occasional long haul flights (never in Y =) which I usually take in a leisurely manner and have a day or two to spare for the travel and subsequent adjusting. I don´t mind transfers at MUC, FRA, CPH, AMS, or even LHR. In particular when flying westbound but also eastbound. Busy business sharks may have to think time is money and they choose the direct AY flights from HEL. Nowadays my flights (almost never in Y) to IT/ES/PT take place via LHR or MUC. Much easier to keep the shiny cards that way, not to mention the saved money. Too bad that AF has only AY code shares to CDG and KF is not really an option.

Normally I see something like 3600e HEL-BKK-HEL in business. That's too steep for me as I'm using my own money. Anything below 2600e is something that I'm ok with. I prefere AY due to direct flights(and it's OW) and so far thee hasn't been better deals to BKK than what AY has to offer at the times I needed/wanted to travel. Once I've done the TLL-HEL-BKK-HEL as it was 1400e cheaper than direct AY(or any other non-direct) at the time I had to go.

Was looking to book the entire family in AY econ for our trip back to SIN, but looking at the rates it seems like the expensive option available. Maybe it's the fact that I need to fly out a few days before New Year's...

I agree but no doubt that high difference is because ex HEL customers are willing to pay that 1500€ to fly nonstop otherwise the difference would be less.

It's like this because there is really no price competition EX-HEL. This is going to change when QR opens it's route and maybe EY after that. Example TK has also expensive J-tickets from HEL compared to other scandinavian countries simply because there is no real competition. When QR starts with ~1500eur HEL-ASIA J-tickets like it did with OSL we will see some long-awaited competition.

November actual flown fares

ARN-ZRH-BKK//SIN-CPH-HEL - 2400€ in C (outbound LX, inbound SK) (and yes, LX upgraded to F on the long haul leg! ^) (to this fare add the 43€ spent on HEL-ARN oneway on DK)

HEL-LHR-NRT-LHR-HEL - 2200€ in VS Upper Class (feeder with BA codeshare on AY metal!!)

Typical HEL-xxx-NRT fares were in the 2200-2600€ range on OS, but OS stopped the HEL-VIE route last month so it's not so exciting anymore.

The same routes would have been the same price ex-HEL on AY with flexible Y

So... you can't fly anything but full fare economy tickets on AY, but you can fly LCC:s on separate tickets and restricted business class tickets on other airlines?

Qatar or Etihad at HEL? How soon? When Emirates and Gulf Air? Definitely looking forward to that!

Seriously, who here thinks that AY actually cares about J class customers ex-HEL? They did so 15 years ago but now all they care are connecting pax in Asia/central/eastern Europe.

So few Finnish companies fly J anyway that it's totally marginal..the random ones who fly J don't care about the price anyway...AY makes much more money selling expensive whY tickets ex-HEL and from commercial perspective they don't need to be competetive with J prices, simple as that.

Seriously, who here thinks that AY actually cares about J class customers ex-HEL? They did so 15 years ago but now all they care are connecting pax in Asia/central/eastern Europe.

So few Finnish companies fly J anyway that it's totally marginal..the random ones who fly J don't care about the price anyway...AY makes much more money selling expensive whY tickets ex-HEL and from commercial perspective they don't need to be competetive with J prices, simple as that.

You surely mean this when talking about EX-HEL and not speaking generally? Finnair's "asian strategy" in which they have put all their eggs on one basket is going to fail if EK and other gulf carriers sort out their disputes with EU and flood the European markets with better product, cheaper prices and better connectivity. In a whole aviation is changing rapidly and I can't see very bright future for AY.

So... you can't fly anything but full fare economy tickets on AY, but you can fly LCC:s on separate tickets and restricted business class tickets on other airlines?

Yes - I can put up with 50 minutes on DK (which is at least on par with AY on the HEL-ARN route) if I can then fly 11 hours in LX C/F - especially if the alternative is 10 hours in AY Y...

Once I've done the TLL-HEL-BKK-HEL as it was 1400e cheaper than direct AY(or any other non-direct) at the time I had to go.

When AY status was important for me, I did the same often. ex-TLL or ex-ARN. But then the whole idea of "direct flight" is gone and can just as well chose any other airline.

Jan 11th - 18th approx

Biz fares

LHR-NRT

LH 3,923 EUR
BA 3,680 EUR
AY 2,798 EUR

HEL-NRT

LH 3,326 EUR
BA 2,648 EUR
AY 4,157 EUR

FRA-NRT

LH 3,804 EUR
BA 2,658 EUR
AY 3,484 EUR

I'd say HEL doesn't have it so bad!


Wait, LHR-NRT is 2,798 EUR and HEL-NRT is 4,157? The LHR probably flies through HEL, no? I'd say that's pretty bad.

You surely mean this when talking about EX-HEL and not speaking generally?

Yes, purely from ex-HEL perspective.

Yes - I can put up with 50 minutes on DK (which is at least on par with AY on the HEL-ARN route) if I can then fly 11 hours in LX C/F - especially if the alternative is 10 hours in AY Y...
That is up to you, but why compare Flex Y to separate ticket LCCs and restricted business (you're argument was that Finnair is the same price in Y as other carriers in C)? If you apparently don't need the fully flexible tickets, then AY Y definitely does not cost you 2500€ for a R/T. First day I tried in January was 930€, changes allowed against a fee (or 890€ no changes).

Also e.g. BA business flex to NRT is about 4300€ ex-hel, not 2600€. That is for an over 18 hour flight, where AY would have taken you to Tokyo by the time you are back in (above) Helsinki on BA. Ou, and please show me the HEL-ARN-ZRH-TYO connection that takes 11h 50m...

Actually, if you only care about having a C seat under your butt, and have no problem with separate tickets and restricted fares what you should compare to is say... AY ex. GOT (or TLL, or RIX, or WAW or...) and a HEL-GOT-HEL (or...) return on a separate ticket or something.

That is up to you, but why compare Flex Y to separate ticket LCCs and restricted business (you're argument was that Finnair is the same price in Y as other carriers in C)? If you apparently don't need the fully flexible tickets, then AY Y definitely does not cost you 2500€ for a R/T. First day I tried in January was 930€, changes allowed against a fee (or 890€ no changes).

Also e.g. BA business flex to NRT is about 4300€ ex-hel, not 2600€. That is for an over 18 hour flight, where AY would have taken you to Tokyo by the time you are back in (above) Helsinki on BA. Ou, and please show me the HEL-ARN-ZRH-TYO connection that takes 11h 50m...

Actually, if you only care about having a C seat under your butt, and have no problem with separate tickets and restricted fares what you should compare to is say... AY ex. GOT (or TLL, or RIX, or WAW or...) and a HEL-GOT-HEL (or...) return on a separate ticket or something.

I'd imagine the "flex whY on AY" price comparison thing is there just to gently fool whoever is paying for the flight.. ;)

Well...

If I should start ex-TLL/ARN/GOT to get an acceptable price on AY, then I feel no reason to to fly back to HEL and continue, when just as well I could take any other airline. So I CAN compare AY fares from outstation, but in that moment AY loses it's only sales argument, ie. having a direct flight. I don't really see how HEL-GOT-HEL-BKK is any shorter than HEL-CPH-BKK

As I said earlier, if I feel AY disses me, I diss them back.

(what comes to my somewhat twisted routing HEL-ARN-ZRH-BKK: LX had excellent ex-ARN fares and as I had to be in BKK by Sun evening, my weekend was screwed anyway. So I just slummed it out in the ZRH F-lounge :D)

In the end it all comes down to loyalty - if you're loyal to AY, you'll go (fly) the extra mile to stay with them. Sadly AY lost my loyalty finally two years ago when they "enhanced" the AY+ programme and wanted to make me to requalify for Gold according to the "old" rules (180k in two years) but would only give Gold according to the "new" rules (1 yr validity)

Sometimes I think we all get to emotional regarding our flag carrier?

Some of you say thay AY doesn't care about Finns anymore. (Well, I used to feel that about SK too, so I understand you). But you know, they charge what they can, it is not an evil plan to punish you all. Isn't it just strict business decisions? Or does our flag carriers have the obligation of transporting us ("their own people") cheaply?

I have the exact same situation, but reversed. Sure I'd like to fly on SK's direct flights ex-CPH, but I will not pay 3500 eur for that. Lucky me that AY has an asian strategy and HEL is such a great transit airport and I can save 900 eur without losing much time or flexibility.

Sure I'd like SK to lower their prices ex-CPH, and while I wait for that to happen I use the options that are available to me, just like many above said they do in choosing BA, LH et al. Totally understandable.

But I must say I agree with mkgrip - if you don't mind the back-tracking and multiple PNRs, why not book a 70 eur ticket to sweden, and then AY flight from here?

...
...
As I said earlier, if I feel AY disses me, I diss them back.

...
In the end it all comes down to loyalty - if you're loyal to AY, you'll go (fly) the extra mile to stay with them. Sadly AY lost my loyalty finally two years ago when they "enhanced" the AY+ programme and wanted to make me to requalify for Gold according to the "old" rules (180k in two years) but would only give Gold according to the "new" rules (1 yr validity)

I can totally understand that. Loyalty is worth a whole lot in this industry

Sometimes I think we all get to emotional regarding our flag carrier?

Some of you say thay AY doesn't care about Finns anymore. (Well, I used to feel that about SK too, so I understand you). But you know, they charge what they can, it is not an evil plan to punish you all. Isn't it just strict business decisions? Or does our flag carriers have the obligation of transporting us ("their own people") cheaply?


There are still thinking like that left.. "AY has forgotten Finns".. "SK don't serve Sweden". Yes flag carriers make us emotional easily, I have never heard anyone demanding that state owned Neste Oil or Fortum should favor their Finnish customers.

But you know, they charge what they can, it is not an evil plan to punish you all. Isn't it just strict business decisions? Or does our flag carriers have the obligation of transporting us ("their own people") cheaply?


Your are completely right - it's a business decision, no evil plan. And I also make my own decisions, not evil plans :)

Of course national carriers are for profit business venture (one hopes) and charge as much as they think they can get away with. Where they are mistaken, though, that theirs is not the captive audience it used to be 10-15 years ago.

(I really wonder how much money AY actually made on my two C feeder flights HEL-LHR and LHR-HEL with BA codes. The total tix value was 2400€ and it included VS' LHR-NRT-LHR in Upper Class - which is really very nice, btw)

Well...

If I should start ex-TLL/ARN/GOT to get an acceptable price on AY, then I feel no reason to to fly back to HEL and continue, when just as well I could take any other airline. So I CAN compare AY fares from outstation, but in that moment AY loses it's only sales argument, ie. having a direct flight. I don't really see how HEL-GOT-HEL-BKK is any shorter than HEL-CPH-BKK

Actually HEL-GOT-HEL-BKK is indeed shorter than than HEL-CPH-BKK, it is unlikely to be quicker though because of the extra connection... but HEL-ARN-ZRH-BKK is over 1 000 miles longer with as many connections as HEL-GOT-HEL-BKK so I can easily imagine the latter being even quicker. If a 2400€ fare is worth flying multiple PNRs then fly a 2000€ AY fare ex-GOT is not?

All I'm saying is that you should compare apples to apples, even if you personally prefer oranges.

Actually HEL-GOT-HEL-BKK is indeed shorter than than HEL-CPH-BKK, it is unlikely to be quicker though because of the extra connection... but HEL-ARN-ZRH-BKK is over 1 000 miles longer with as many connections as HEL-GOT-HEL-BKK so I can easily imagine the latter being even quicker. If a 2400€ fare is worth flying multiple PNRs then fly a 2000€ AY fare ex-GOT is not?

All I'm saying is that you should compare apples to apples, even if you personally prefer oranges.

It was two PRN - HEL-ARN on one and ARN-ZRH-BKK//SIN-CPH-HEL on another. Not too difficult to juggle. But I do admit it was not a typical routing for even for me - my main routes are via VIE (not anymore) or ZRH, without stopping by at ARN

Yes, at the moment I prefer oranges - for several reasons. Foremost is that I feel that the apple seller wants to rip me off. But I start to repeat myself.

(and of course we are on FT - so remember the miles earned! :D)