I've checked the various threads and haven't seen this posted anywhere, so here goes. If it is a duplicate, I hope the Mods will delete.
Frontier has two applications in with the DOT for new Mexico scheduled service. Both are "in conjunction" with Apple Vacations, meaning that Apple will purchase capacity on the flights.
The first application is for PHL-CUN, CLE-CUN and RFD-CUN, all to start service early February. The comments period is over (there haven't been any) so it is fair to assume that all three routes will get approval.
The second application is for ORD-SJD, ORD-PVR - and ORD-CUN. The last is likely to be the most contentious. There are only three authorities for the route - United has one, American the second and USA3000 the third. USA3000 is being wound down, and Frontier hopes that the ORD-CUN authority for the route can be transferred directly to it.
I don't think this will happen so easily, if at all. Supposedly, Airtran has filed an objection, saying it wants the authority (as MDW-CUN) so I expect a battle and I don't know which way it will go. There is still time for Spirit to object and apply for the route as well.
I see no problem with the applications for ORD-SJD and ORD-PVR. Frontier is already contracted to fly ORD-HUX and ORD-MBJ for Apple (starting December/January) so this will give the airline a good leg-in at ORD. I guess we can start to think about a possible ORD-DEN, if only for the rotation of aircraft.
There is also a rumor on another forum that Frontier will pick up TYS-MCO, which Airtran is dropping - but it is only a rumor.
Enjoy.
Davy
MikeFromMKE
Dec 1, 11, 1:03 pm
I like the new direction they are going in conjunction with Apple. Hopefully it will help with Q1 which has been historically some of Frontier's weakest periods.
Regarding ORD-CUN, Airtran initially waived the opportunity to raise an objection until Southwest found out about it, and subsequently sent in an objection on behalf of Airtran. Could be an interesting battle for it, but I think F9 can at least still charter for Apple if they don't get it. Also, it brings up the interesting possibility of if they move from MDW to ORD or fly to both airports.
I'd love to see them pick up TYS-MCO. It would probably be low-yielding but the traffic appears to be there and being a nonstop they should be able to make it profitable. I do like the direction they are going with more P2P routes that they can make work since those routes should have better profit potential than connections.
davywavy
Dec 1, 11, 1:52 pm
I like the new direction they are going in conjunction with Apple. Hopefully it will help with Q1 which has been historically some of Frontier's weakest periods.
ORD is the most interesting to me. Assuming - and it is only an assumption - that Frontier picks up most of the USDA3000 flying, then it will have a small but interesting - international - focus city at ORD.
And there are a number of holes to fill. Will Frontier pick up Apple's ORD-LIR, for example, or ORD-PUJ, which are still listed as only USA3000?
There are other holes. I am surprised at the lack of service from ORD to some of the Central American and Caribbean destinations.
I'd love to see them pick up TYS-MCO. It would probably be low-yielding but the traffic appears to be there and being a nonstop they should be able to make it profitable.
I agree. I'd also like to see Frontier pick up CRW-MCO, which Airtran is also dropping, but I suspect Allegiant might get there first.
davy
MikeFromMKE
Dec 1, 11, 3:21 pm
I wonder if a less than weekly TYS-LAS on an E90 might catch some traffic too?
davywavy
Dec 1, 11, 4:24 pm
I wonder if a less than weekly TYS-LAS on an E90 might catch some traffic too?
Hmmmm - maybe. I think it is probably an okay route, but Allegiant has just started it with a fair degree of hoopla - Elvis alive and well at TYS airport.
Can it support two carriers? Not so sure.
davy
MikeFromMKE
Dec 1, 11, 4:33 pm
Didn't realize Allegiant had already gotten there...
davywavy
Dec 2, 11, 11:14 am
To add to the new routes mix, there is the matter of the SCASD grants for next year, which featured Frontier quite strongly.
South Bend, IN - SBN - Toledo, OH - TOL - and Santa Rosa CA - STS - received grants, with Frontier as the named (but not necessarily committed) airline for flights to DEN - they're all listed here:
Of these, the money appears to be on SBN, with TOL as a toss of the coin.
My personal favorite is STS, for completely sentimental reasons. I used to live in the Russian River area and thought pretty close to paradise. I'm pretty sure it would do well in summer, I don't how it would be in off-season. The grant and local business support is about $1.5 million, which ain't hay.
However, there has been a question mark about the runway length, which the STS airport people now now addressing, They're also planning an $84 million extension of the airport:
"County planners on Thursday backed a plan to expand Charles M. Schulz-Sonoma County Airport, voting 4-1 for an $84 million project that includes longer runways, more commercial flights and a new passenger terminal."
There are a few other minor contenders which may or may not get service, but there is a half million grant to Cedar Rapids - CID - for service to MKE, on either Southwest/Airtran or Frontier.
I assume any of these could lead to the usual charges of "subsidy chasing" at Frontier, but I fail to see why it is a negative.
Akron/Canton, for example, gets a grant of $350,000 just to make the name Southwest known at CAK:
"To preserve low fares that are so critical for Akron-Canton travelers and businesses, Akron-Canton Airport with the support of Southwest Airlines, is applying for $350,000 that would be used to firmly establish the Southwest brand at the local level over a two year period."
Make of it what you will. :-)
davy
8C4IOW
Dec 2, 11, 4:28 pm
There are a few other minor contenders which may or may not get service, but there is a half million grant to Cedar Rapids - CID - for service to MKE, on either Southwest/Airtran or Frontier.
I assume any of these could lead to the usual charges of "subsidy chasing" at Frontier, but I fail to see why it is a negative.
CID has had their bid in the last couple of times but have not been chosen. I would love to see it since I'm from around there (user name). Without the 145's flying I'm not sure we will ever see a flight from there to MKE on Frontier. I know it would do well as a sub-weekly E190 flight since the demand for daily service is probably not there. Alegiant is a decent player there as well but mainly to Vegas. PHX and Florida. To get in on some leisure business traffic, Frontier should give it a shot. Of course I'm biased......
Midwest used to fly to CID and MLI, Knoope wrote about them here post 15:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/midwest-airlines-midwest-miles-pre-alignment/1085353-great-lakes-airlines-codeshare.html
American and United have the biggest market share at CID with 27.6 and 29.3 percent, respectively.
http://business380.com/2011/11/29/no-impact-on-c-r-flights-from-american-airlines-bankruptcy/
I think Shuttle America runs the CID-DEN flights and CID-ORD flights but I'm not 100% certain on that. I'm not sure if CHQ flies the the CID-ORD/DFW flights.
I doubt Airtran is interested since they already announced they are closing MLI and Skywest doesn't fly for them anymore. I doubt Southwest is interested since MLI closing was under them and Southwest's closet station is OMA. I don't think they will want to run a 717 or 737 to MKE or MDW.
davywavy
Dec 5, 11, 11:01 am
Akron/Canton, for example, gets a grant of $350,000 just to make the name Southwest known at CAK:
"To preserve low fares that are so critical for Akron-Canton travelers and businesses, Akron-Canton Airport with the support of Southwest Airlines, is applying for $350,000 that would be used to firmly establish the Southwest brand at the local level over a two year period."[/QUOTE]
Just to keepo the record straight, CAK applied for that grant - but didn't get it. I jumped the gun on that one, sorry.
As to new routes, Frontier has just announced MCI-TPA as winter seasonal, a couple of flights a week.
davy
N830MH
Dec 5, 11, 6:52 pm
I wonder if a less than weekly TYS-LAS on an E90 might catch some traffic too?
Actually, G4 has already start a direct flight from LAS-TYS is only for twice weekly service. It operated 757-200 aircraft. I believe those route has done extremely very well.
Didn't realize Allegiant had already gotten there...
Yes, they already have a direct flight LAS-TYS.
davywavy
Dec 9, 11, 1:04 pm
The second application is for ORD-SJD, ORD-PVR - and ORD-CUN. The last is likely to be the most contentious. There are only three authorities for the route - United has one, American the second and USA3000 the third. USA3000 is being wound down, and Frontier hopes that the ORD-CUN authority for the route can be transferred directly to it.
The DOT has now approved Frontier for scheduled ORD-PVR and ORD-SJD service. Both routes will be flown "in conjunction" with Apple Vacations and Apple will buy capacity on those routes.
Because Southwest has objected to the transfer of the ORD-CUN authority, the DOT has now thrown it open to everyone, and Airtran (Southwest) has filed an application for it.
No word yet on the PHL/CLE/RFD-CUN application.
davy
davywavy
Dec 9, 11, 8:32 pm
And while I am at this, there is still the mystery of the 5th SNA slot.
When Orange County Airport allocated slots for 2012, Frontier, which has 4 slots, was awarded a 5th.
There is yet no news on how that slot will be used. I could handle something a little different from another DEN-SNA. :-)
davy
davywavy
Dec 19, 11, 4:09 pm
Frontier has two applications in with the DOT for new Mexico scheduled service. Both are "in conjunction" with Apple Vacations, meaning that Apple will purchase capacity on the flights.
The first application is for PHL-CUN, CLE-CUN and RFD-CUN, all to start service early February. The comments period is over (there haven't been any) so it is fair to assume that all three routes will get approval.
The second application is for ORD-SJD, ORD-PVR - and ORD-CUN. The last is likely to be the most contentious.
Okay, so Airtran did not object to Frontier's application for ORD-CU - but Southwest did and then (as Airtran) filed a lengthy application for the authority for MDW-CUN (basically saying that Southwest's application craps all over Frontier's).
The DOT sprang into action and granted Frontier ORD-PVR and ORD-SJD - but threw the CHI-CUN authority out into the market.
Frontier has answered Southwest, as here - click on the pdf icon:
Insisting that ORD is better than MDW for this, that Frontier will provide continuity of service (from USA3000) and also suggesting that Airtran (Southwest?) doesn't understand the market.
I don't know who will get it, but I suspect Southwest will go nuclear (with Frontier) if it doesn't.
Meanwhile, the DOT has still not approved Frontier's earlier application for PHL/CLE/RFD-CUN - a puzzling delay - so Frontier has put "em up for sale "subject to government approval."
Bit it hasn't yet put ORD-PVR and ORD-SJD for sale - although it now has those authorities.
Davy
knope2001
Dec 19, 11, 8:40 pm
Thanks for posting the update. Just does not seem to be any love lost between Frontier and WN/FL.
When there are competitive bids for things like this, it sometimes amazes me how snarky the letters are. Although one could view it as entertaining -- which in some regards it is -- I'd like to think that ego and grudges are not primary drivers in decision making.
davywavy
Dec 19, 11, 8:48 pm
When there are competitive bids for things like this, it sometimes amazes me how snarky the letters are. Although one could view it as entertaining -- which in some regards it is -- I'd like to think that ego and grudges are not primary drivers in decision making.
I should probably have given it context. The Airtran application for the authority is fairly brutal towards Frontier. Click on the pdf icon:
It really isn't! Some of the back-and-forth in the when it cames to things like slot exemptions at DCA over the years has been on the ugly side. And it certainly isn't limited to any particular airline.
When my aging dad...who grew up rural and still feels bad about never having gone to high school...moved to an assisted living complex, I told him that he was finally getting to experience high school. The cliquishness, gossip, and petty retaliations in the dining room among these people in their 80's and 90's reminded me greatly of high school. Perhaps the schoolyard scrapping and adolescent behavior doesn't take a break between 18 and 80, at least not in the world of airline business.
3Cforme
Dec 20, 11, 8:34 am
When lawyers are retained at $600 an hour they have all the incentive in the world to turn up the rhetoric. A point-by-point response from a competitor just yields yet more opportunity for billable hours. I expect that the regulators responsible have pretty sophisticated BS filters so the approach just leads to higher costs for the industry.
runnigel
Dec 20, 11, 9:26 am
They do make an entertaining read. I'm glad to see Frontier didn't back down but instead really bare its teeth and go after Southwest. I'm afraid it won't be enough especially if the FAA wants to spread out the 'Love'. F9 made some excellent points but not having a base in ORD may hurt them. However, with WN still dealing with the merger and attempting to get everything in line, I doubt they'll be able to properly manage flights to CUN...
MikeFromMKE
Dec 20, 11, 10:01 am
F9 made some excellent points but not having a base in ORD may hurt them.
I think it might help them that Airtran really doesn't have a large operation in Chicago either. They can claim the WN connection possibilities, but until there is a codeshare in place this shouldn't really count.
davywavy
Dec 20, 11, 10:45 am
It really isn't! Some of the back-and-forth in the when it cames to things like slot exemptions at DCA over the years has been on the ugly side. And it certainly isn't limited to any particular airline.
I suppose I'm just getting a bit bored with Southwest's bully boy attitude to Frontier.
But - happier things - Apple Vacations has revised its schedule to reflect the early end of USA3000. Here's the ORD schedule, but there's a wee box top right to change to the other airports:
As far as I can tell, the last USA3000 flight is ORD-CUN on January 29.
Frontier takes over everything else except one of the PVR frequencies (Alaska) and Aeromexico still has all ORD-CZM.
For the other Apple cities, Airtran still has all MKE, DTW, BWI, PIT and CMH, Sun Country has MSP, DFW and LAN and JetBlue has JFK (one flight).
Frontier has the rest. Since BB expects the Frontier/Apple flying to nearly double next year, I guess it will be flying some of those other cities.
Davy
davywavy
Dec 21, 11, 11:23 am
Frontier has now applied to the DOT to operate all the PUJ - Punta Cana - Apple charter routes as scheduled routes as well.
Frontier proposes to operate between one and four weekly services on each route using a mix of 138-seat A319 and 162-seat A320 aircraft.
Baltimore - Punta Cana - seasonal
Chicago - Punta Cana - year round
Cincinnati - Punta Cana - seasonal
Clevelend - Punta Cana - seasonal
Denver - Punta Cana - seasonal
Philedelphia - Punta Cana - seasonal
Pittsburg - Puna Cana - seasonal
Rockford - Punta Cana - seasonal
St. Louis - Punta Cana - seasonal
It is starting to look like an effective scheduled take-over of the USA3000 route ,map, without the cost and difficulties of an actual merger.
MBJ - next or not at all? - and then there are ORD-LIR and ORD-HUX.
davy.
MikeFromMKE
Dec 21, 11, 11:37 am
Awesome news! I hope at least one of these can be connected to from MKE, I'd love to take a trip down there next winter.
davywavy
Dec 21, 11, 11:44 am
Awesome news! I hope at least one of these can be connected to from MKE, I'd love to take a trip down there next winter.
Have to be ORD, I guess.
The problem is that - for this winter - all the Apple Vacations MKE flights are operated by Airtran.
I don't know what the life of the Apple/Airtran contract is, or if Southwest will continue it it it has a longer duration than this winter. However, Frontier has now applied for scheduled PIT-PUJ (in conjunction with Apple) so it looks as if Frontier will be taking over at least that route from Airtran next winter.
davy
newsmanhoss
Dec 21, 11, 12:14 pm
It'd be nice if F9 could reinstate MKE-PIT as a repositioning flight to do this flying, but I guess they'll just route one in from DEN instead.
Just curious, though, since they don't currently fly DEN-PIT.
MikeFromMKE
Dec 21, 11, 4:49 pm
It'd be nice if F9 could reinstate MKE-PIT as a repositioning flight to do this flying, but I guess they'll just route one in from DEN instead.
Just curious, though, since they don't currently fly DEN-PIT.
That's more what I was thinking, trying to do a MKE-PIT-CUN routing or MKE-PHL-CUN.
davywavy
Dec 23, 11, 4:50 pm
They do make an entertaining read. I'm glad to see Frontier didn't back down but instead really bare its teeth and go after Southwest. I'm afraid it won't be enough especially if the FAA wants to spread out the 'Love'. F9 made some excellent points but not having a base in ORD may hurt them. However, with WN still dealing with the merger and attempting to get everything in line, I doubt they'll be able to properly manage flights to CUN...
Now SWAPA has weighted in, predictably on behalf of Southwest/Airtran, with certain numbers redacted:
In both cases, click on the pdf icon to read the submissions.
Part of me hopes that it will go to Southwest (Airtran) - because I think the airline would go nuclear against Frontier if it didn't get it.
davy
MikeFromMKE
Dec 24, 11, 9:12 am
I find it funny that the swapa commentary includes them trying to book flights at usa3000.com for flights that are ending January 8th and commenting on how they don't provide bookable flights to the public and can't expect frontier to do otherwise.
N830MH
Dec 26, 11, 8:38 pm
Denver - Punta Cana - seasonal
Isn't first-ever brand new nonstop DEN-Caribbean? Last time UA were never started DEN-SJU after 9/11 attacks.
Can F9 will next a specific new route from DEN-NAS/FPO/GCM/MBJ/KIN?
davywavy
Dec 26, 11, 10:13 pm
Isn't first-ever brand new nonstop DEN-Caribbean?
I believe it may be. The problem with the eastern Caribbean from DEN is distance. DEN-PUJ is right at the very limit of the A319 range from DEN and I understand it will only fly (as a non-stop) in the summer months.
I am guessing that the next move may be for Frontier to apply for scheduled service (in conjunction with the various Apple routes) to MBJ - ORD-MBJ, STL-MBJ, eg.
davy
DenverBrian
Dec 27, 11, 9:58 am
Frontier has now applied to the DOT to operate all the PUJ - Punta Cana - Apple charter routes as scheduled routes as well.Enjoy your trip to the Dominican Republic, but don't pack a single valuable item:
As usual, click on the pdf icon to read the notice of action taken.
So PUJ has the green light. That will make an interesting change to the route map.
davy
runnigel
Dec 28, 11, 3:31 pm
I wonder how many miles it will cost to redeem a flight to PUJ and the other destinations Frontier has been awarded. It will definitely add some value to the FF program
8C4IOW
Dec 28, 11, 4:09 pm
I wonder how many miles it will cost to redeem a flight to PUJ and the other destinations Frontier has been awarded. It will definitely add some value to the FF program
I would be surprised if they even offered any frequent flyer seats on Apple flights. Frontier is only allowed to sell a certain number of seats on the flight and Apple has the rest.
BlueHorseShoe2000
Jan 12, 12, 1:45 am
Crain's Chicago Business Magazine had an interesting article yesterday about the battle between Southwest and Frontier over the Chicago-Cancun route authority.
Some excerpts:
"If Mayor Rahm Emanuel has his way, Chicagoans looking for a winter break in balmy Cancun soon will be able to fly there non-stop from Midway International Airport.
"Southwest Airlines Co. has lined up the mayor, House Speaker Michael Madigan, D-Chicago, U.S. Rep. Dan Lipinski, D-Chicago, City Aviation Commissioner Rosemarie Andolino and the Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce behind its bid to provide daily direct flights between Midway and the Mexican resort island, using its wholly owned subsidiary, AirTran Airways Inc.
“I believe that the daily, year-round non-stop scheduled service proposed by AirTran offers the most sustainable option,” said the mayor's letter to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, a close friend of Mr. Emanuel's since they served together in the U.S. House of Representatives in the 2000s.
"Southwest “doesn't provide the competitive oomph that a low-fare scheduled provider would offer at O'Hare,” said Robert Cohn, an attorney in Washington, D.C., who represents Frontier. “Politically, it's an uphill battle, but substantively, Frontier has a better case.”
Southwest knows how to play the political game (especially Chicago style politics it seems).
flyYX
Jan 12, 12, 6:34 am
Crain's Chicago Business Magazine had an interesting article yesterday about the battle between Southwest and Frontier over the Chicago-Cancun route authority.
Some excerpts:
"If Mayor Rahm Emanuel has his way, Chicagoans looking for a winter break in balmy Cancun soon will be able to fly there non-stop from Midway International Airport.
"Southwest Airlines Co. has lined up the mayor, House Speaker Michael Madigan, D-Chicago, U.S. Rep. Dan Lipinski, D-Chicago, City Aviation Commissioner Rosemarie Andolino and the Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce behind its bid to provide daily direct flights between Midway and the Mexican resort island, using its wholly owned subsidiary, AirTran Airways Inc.
“I believe that the daily, year-round non-stop scheduled service proposed by AirTran offers the most sustainable option,” said the mayor's letter to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, a close friend of Mr. Emanuel's since they served together in the U.S. House of Representatives in the 2000s.
"Southwest “doesn't provide the competitive oomph that a low-fare scheduled provider would offer at O'Hare,” said Robert Cohn, an attorney in Washington, D.C., who represents Frontier. “Politically, it's an uphill battle, but substantively, Frontier has a better case.”