Finnair Plus - New planes for Finnair

In todays newspaper was reported that Finnair will get new A350 planes earliest 2015. This means at least 4 more years with A330 and some very old A340 planes with limited entertainment system and old style angled lie business class seats (only four A330's have fully flat beds, but you never know what you get). Finnair has earlier said it will not refit the old planes. In a few years they will be so out of date that it must reflect to customer satisfaction.

The deliveries of 350XWB was scheduled to start in 2014. I notice that Finnair.com (IR and PR) still states 2014. Did the newspaper article say anything about why and what the source for this info was?

The deliveries of 350XWB was scheduled to start in 2014. I notice that Finnair.com (IR and PR) still states 2014. Did the newspaper article say anything about why and what the source for this info was?

The news was based on this article on Air Transport World webpage:

New York-based Bernstein Research said Airbus may experience more A350 delays.

In a client report, Bernstein said the Emirates order for 50 Boeing 777s at Dubai highlights concern about the A350 schedule (ATW Daily News, Nov. 15).

“The A350 situation at Airbus looks increasingly challenging, particularly after Emirates elected to order delivery of 777s spread over 2015-20,” the report said. “Based on our airline discussions in Dubai, we believe that A350 delays could extend beyond the current schedule, with the need for substantial weight reduction.”

Bernstein has pushed back its forecast of the A350-900 first delivery by six monthsto mid 2015.

Earlier this month, EADS announced a six-month delay in the A350-900 to mid 2014 – a year earlier than Bernstein’s new forecast (ATW Daily News, Nov. 11). Previously, Bernstein had Airbus delivering eight A350s in 2014 and 50 in 2015 (ATW Daily News, Aug. 23, 2010). It noted the 777 appears to be benefiting from concerns about the A350 availability and ultimate performance.

“The 777 has performed very well for airlines in the region with high dispatch reliability. With uncertainty about the A350, the 777 orders also act as an insurance policy for airlines against A350 delays (much as A330 orders did for the 787).”

Bernstein added that “the positive experience with the 777 also makes it a low-risk option compared to an all-new aircraft.”

I would hardly be surprised if it was 2016 or even 2017 before we see the first A350 in AY livery, although I hope I'm wrong. Just keep in mind how it was with the 7-late-7, and A380.

Regarding refurbs, I can see why AY does not want to spend money to refurbish the A340s (they are probably the first to go when AY gets enough A350s), but you'd imagine that especially if there are more delays, harmonizing the whole A333 fleet might be a good idea. I addition to the basic added comfort, it would also create a more consistent product, when you could tell from the plane type what kind of hard product to expect.

OK, this delay seems to be all on Airbus, not in any way on Finnair. (It is bad enough, but I was worried AY had some issues too.)

I believe Finnair's contract states something like "no 350's with serial number lower than #20 shall be delivered to Finnair". When this was negotiated back in 2007 it seemed smart, keeping early production metal out of the fleet. By #20 the production will be very stable, and AY will get very similar planes into the fleet. Similar planes will keep cost down.
But if plane #1 is first delivered mid 2015, then AY might not get any planes until 2016 due to this clause.

However, the delay is only for 350-900, right? AY has the option of going 350-800 or 350-1000 instead (but I have no idea if those planes will suit the needs).


Anyway, back to your original question - the ageing interior of 340's and 330's. True, they said they will not refit the old planes, and by 2015 the three oldest 340's will be around 20 yo. OH-LQA was refitted in 2006, so that interior will be close to 10 yo.

Maybe this delay will force a refit of the 340's (a second refit for some of them)? Mika Vehviläinen said (http://www.ausbt.com.au/finnair-ceo-rejects-premium-economy-for-airbus-a350) just a few months ago that AY is already planning refitting the not yet delivered 350's around 2020, as "The average life cycle of a business class seat is between 5-7 years"
If this is an insight for the future 350's, then they must realize that some of the 340's interiors are soon beyond that life cycle too. I doubt the 330's getting refitted though, they are all new deliveries and I think we are stuck with the interiors for quite a few years. I don't understand why the 330's weren't fitted the same way on delivery, but there must be some reason?

I agree with you that around 2015 many of the interiors will feel dated and meeting increasing competition...

I still think that the decision what (if anything) to refit will be based at least as much on what is planned for the future of the plane, as how old the current interior or current design is. If they're getting rid of the bird within a soon, they'll probably rather go duct tape than use hundreds of thousands for a refit that is just going to be flying for little longer. I think that is a bigger factor than the fact that the A340s have seats that are a year or two older (excluding the ex-AF birds). I wonder if similar seats from one plane can easily be used as spares for another, which would make the age difference even less of an issue.

So the question is not just which plane in the fleet is the oldest, but which plane will be there the longest, and also will the A350 replace older birds or are they used for growing the fleet or both. I don't think even AY knows that for sure, but as said, when something is leaving, I'd bet on the A340s.

Totally agree that there are many factors, and refitting a bird that is soon getting out of operations is not a good use of money (unless there is a healthy market for "2nd hand"). But as it seems that upper management of AY realizes that hard product is an important mean of competition then maybe an delay in deliveries of 350 might force a new tactic for refitting today's fleet. Maybe you are right that 330 is the choice over 340, because they expect the 330's to stay longer (340 have after all gone out of production)

One fact that speaks for 340 leaving when 350 arrives is that 330 and 350 are very similar. It is said that a 330 flightcrew can fly 350 without much extra training, while 340 crew need more training. And having a fleet of very similar planes is ofcourse cost efficient.

One fact that speaks for keeping 340 is the cargo capacity. 340 is a 4 enginge plane (330, 350 is not), and I have a hard time believing AY is planning on flying less cargo on asian routes.

Well, it seems 350-900 is designed to replace 340-300, so my thinking around cargo was a little off. The take-off weight is slightly less in the 350, but as it is much lighter, it should actually be possible to lift more cargo with the 350.

So I guess the 350's are to both phase out the 340's and to let the fleet grow. Then I agree that the chances that we will see a refit in the 340's is not very high. Even if AY has to keep them on until 2016, it is still just a few years longer than expected.

But I can only imagine the negative feeling LQA, LQF and LQG will give me in 2016 though...

One fact that speaks for keeping 340 is the cargo capacity. 340 is a 4 enginge plane (330, 350 is not), and I have a hard time believing AY is planning on flying less cargo on asian routes.

777 could handle all. No hassling with loads or range.

Well, having a mixed fleet with both Boeing and Airbus would cost a fortune in operating costs, so I don't see that happening anytime soon...

Well, having a mixed fleet with both Boeing and Airbus would cost a fortune in operating costs, so I don't see that happening anytime soon...

Emirates makes millions profit every year with mixed fleet.

Everything is possible.

777 could handle all. No hassling with loads or range.
Finnair's longest route is about 9200km, I think they can manage that with the 15 000km range the A350 has, even fully loaded.
Emirates makes millions profit every year with mixed fleet.

Everything is possible.
Emirates has more of each type (A330, A340, A380, B777) than AY's whole LH fleet.

Edit: Although... I agree that it would be much more interesting if AY had a miniature EK fleet: 2 A330-300, 1 A340-300, 1 A340-500, 2 A380-800, 1 B777-200, 1 B777-200ER, 1 B777-200LR, 1 B777-300, 4 B777-300ER and 1 A350 in order... hey that kinda sounds like what Air 3rdworldcountryistan will probably be operating in about 30 years.

77W in AY colours, oh mama.... that would be cute/cool. ^

Emirates makes millions profit every year with mixed fleet.

Everything is possible.

Maybe Emirates would make even more money with only Boeings in their fleet?

As for Finnair, they have very clearly chosen Airbus and have a clear strategy to cut cost by a unified fleet. Sure, at some point the rising cost of introducing a new air plane family into the fleet can be motivated by increasing business, but I think something really, really dramatic must happen before AY would mix up the fleet with a few new Boeings.

77W in AY colours, oh mama.... that would be cute/cool.
Maybe you can buy a model air plane and paint it yourself :D

But I can only imagine the negative feeling LQA, LQF and LQG will give me in 2016 though...

What is negative with LQA? Yeah, I know it's A340 and that is the main problem.:D

What is negative with LQA? Yeah, I know it's A340 and that is the main problem.:D

Haha :D No I don't mind the 340's
Maybe I just have been unlucky but I had numerous "incidents" on LQA, mainly with IFE not working at all, toilets being closed due to malfunction and stuff like that. When IFE dies in the beginning of safety video, FAs get really thrown off balance, and it affects the whole trip. With 2 toilets disabled in C cabin, it also gets kind of weird...

I also had LQA going tech shortly before boarding and forced to have an engine replaced while we waited.

3 days ago there were news that Etiahd had cancelled an order of 6 A350s.

Now CX has bought (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cathay-pacific-asia-miles/1304873-cx-will-take-another-6-a350-900xwb.html) them...

Anyway, it's the 350-1000 and it is a production slot in 2017 so the deal would not affect AY in anyway. But, d--n, that was quick!

I fly Singapore - Helsinki fairly often so I decided to check what the situation is.

The leased planes ex AF and the LQA will go first. That means the fleet will be A330 and A350 only. The A350 cargo payload and range will be better than the A340. The cost per seat should be 20% cheaper than the A340 and 10% lower than the A330.

Finnair seem to be relatively sure that the A350 will start arriving at Finnair in 2015. They opted for delivery in 2014. That means if deliveries are delayed by 1 year they will start arriving at some point in 2015.

Because the A350 has fewer new materials/composites compared to the 787 they envisage fewer problems.

Today's press release announces a new savings target (additional 60MEUR), but also briefly mentions the schedule for fleet renewal:

...
Renewing Finnair’s fleet is vital for the implementation of the airline's Asian growth strategy. Investments related to fleet renewal are significant in the coming years: Four Boeing 757 aircraft, used in Finnair's leisure traffic, will be replaced with five Airbus 321 ER aircraft in 2013 and 2014, and the first of 11 Airbus 350 XWB aircraft will join Finnair's fleet in 2015. The value of these investments totals 1.2 billion euros.

Finnair is the first European airline to fly the next generation Airbus 350 XWB aircraft. The purpose of the coming investments is to offer customers an outstanding travel experience with a cost-competitive fleet.
...

No detail of 350's as to when and what they will replace, but the B757's seems to be going away soon.

Today's press release announces a new savings target (additional 60MEUR), but also briefly mentions the schedule for fleet renewal:



No detail of 350's as to when and what they will replace, but the B757's seems to be going away soon.

Good riddance!

Today's press release announces a new savings target (additional 60MEUR),

It is also probably noteworthy that Q3/12 was "the best quarter ever" [in terms of earnings]. And AY will probably have profit in 2012.

Good riddance!

Yes, big congrats to the leisure crowd! And the rest of us are hoping to soon see more of the A330's !

It is also probably noteworthy that Q3/12 was "the best quarter ever" [in terms of earnings]. And AY will probably have profit in 2012.

I saw that too. Vehviläinen thanked staff for their determination to improve business. That was a nice touch.

What is wrong with 757? Powerful aircraft, not ugly and the best thing, it is Boeing.

What is wrong with 757? Powerful aircraft, not ugly and the best thing, it is Boeing.

All that may be true (OK, the part about Boeing is true), but the current seating ensures very uncomfortable ride.

Take exit seat with unlimited legspace and it beats all kind of Airbus rides.

Isn't the AY 757 layout the worlds densest config out there?