Virgin America Elevate - iPad and notebook STOLEN out of checked luggage.

Was on JFK-LAX trip with a friend of mine. For various reasons I was on DL while she was on VX. Upon arrival in LAX she found that her iPad and notebook computer were gone from her checked luggage.

There was no TSA note. Reports were made to VX, the Port Authority Police, LAXPD and TSA.

After the predictable "Why did she put valuable electronics in her checked luggage?" blame-the-victim responses are done, is there speculation as to who might might've lifted these items? TSA agents? VX personnel? Some other type of airport workers who had access to the bag?

It's all very unsettling.

Too many hands in too many locations. But what was said is true. You don't put valuables where they can be blindly taken. Pretty common sense.

I had a DVD player stolen from my checked bag a few years ago. It wasn't worth that much, but it's pretty annoying. Oddly, they didn't steal the charger, so unless they can find a charger of the same voltage, they stole something from me that will be useless to them.

Come on...putting an Ipad in checked luggage and expecting it to still be there at baggage claim?

Come on...putting an Ipad in checked luggage and expecting it to still be there at baggage claim?

Yea - heaven forbid we should expect people not to steal... :rolleyes:

Yes it's a shame that we live in a world that you can't trust people. Yes your friend is the victim, but she needs to use some common sense and/or read the warnings that say not pack any valuables in your checked luggage.

Even if it made it through, I would have been worried the ipad would have been damaged during transport.

TSA agents? VX personnel? Some other type of airport workers who had access to the bag?

Could have been any of them. I would have to say in VX's case though, since I don't believe they do their own baggage, it probably wasn't a VX employee.

I hate to say it, but TSA agents are there when the bags go through the x-ray machines, so only they really know if there is something worth stealing.

Would you tape $1000 to your checked luggage and expect it to still be there when you arrived? Pretty much the same thing putting expensive electronics inside checked luggage.

Would you tape $1000 to your checked luggage and expect it to still be there when you arrived? Pretty much the same thing putting expensive electronics inside checked luggage.

Taping $1000 to the outside luggage is different than stowing items in a closed private bag. I would expect all transportation professionals, whether they be Virgin baggage handlers or TSA, that are entrusted with the luggage to not commit robbery.

Yes, had I known she was planning on putting an iPad in her checked luggage I would've strongly advised against it, but an expensive electronic item being relatively easily available to steal to a small group of transportation professionals IS NO EXCUSE TO STEAL IT. Period.

I was travelling international and had an XBOX and a Wii in one of the baggage.

I always lock my luggage using the approved locks by the TSA and thankfully I never had a problem.

It's all very unsettling.

What's unsettling to me is why people continue to put valuable electronics in checked luggage, given the numerous reports of theft and damage, and then complain on FT when there stuff is stolen and/or broken. I just don't get it. :confused:

It's one thing to know the risks and accept them, but is your friend really surprised that her valuables were stolen? The bags go through so many hands out of the sight of others, it's nearly impossible to point the finger at the thief.

Hopefully she has the Find my iPad app loaded on it, it will show her where it is.

What's unsettling to me is why people continue to put valuable electronics in checked luggage, given the numerous reports of theft and damage, and then complain on FT when there stuff is stolen and/or broken. I just don't get it. :confused:

It's one thing to know the risks and accept them, but is your friend really surprised that her valuables were stolen?

This warrants a cut and paste from a similar the-victim-deserved-it response above:

Yes, had I known she was planning on putting an iPad in her checked luggage I would've strongly advised against it, but an expensive electronic item being relatively easily available to steal to a small group of transportation professionals IS NO EXCUSE TO STEAL IT. Period.

Yes, had I known she was planning on putting an iPad in her checked luggage I would've strongly advised against it, but an expensive electronic item being relatively easily available to steal to a small group of transportation professionals IS NO EXCUSE TO STEAL IT. Period.

I agree with you 100%.

What I don't understand (and so far hasn't been explained) is why your friend did checked here iPad in the first place. You and I both know that the chain of baggage handling is rife with theft. Did she really not know this? Did she willingly ignore the airlines' persistent advice against it? Or did she know and decided to just take her chances and accept the risk?

I would truly like to understand why so many people trust the TSA, baggage handlers, and the airlines with their expensive items when there have been so many problems in the past!

Taping $1000 to the outside luggage is different than stowing items in a closed private bag. I would expect all transportation professionals, whether they be Virgin baggage handlers or TSA, that are entrusted with the luggage to not commit robbery.

Yes, had I known she was planning on putting an iPad in her checked luggage I would've strongly advised against it, but an expensive electronic item being relatively easily available to steal to a small group of transportation professionals IS NO EXCUSE TO STEAL IT. Period.

I don't think anyone here is excusing the behavior, of course it is not ok to steal from someone's luggage. But a little bit of common sense is to be expected. I did once put a portable DVD player in my checked bag, but I did so knowing full well there was a good chance it wasn't going to be there on the other end. It's a couple years old and probably wasn't worth anyone's time to steal so it was still in the bag, but I would never put anything I considered valuable in there.

is there speculation as to who might might've lifted these items? TSA agents? VX personnel? Some other type of airport workers who had access to the bag?

What's the point of the speculation? Could be any of them- up to and including an organized ring of thieves. File the report and insurance claims and move on, I suppose.

And nobody is excusing theft- but really, if your neighbor left her (alarmed) car doors unlocked and the car wasn't in front of her house the next morning, would you be unsettled that there were thieves prowling your neighborhood, or would you just figure she learned an expensive lesson that could have been easily been avoided?

JFK has a bad reputation for things being taken from bags. That alone makes her decision foolish. VX personnel basically don't touch the bag - it gets loaded on the belt at check-in and after that it gets scanned/xray etc by others. My bet is it was lifted at JFK. The arrival city personnel would never know what was in it and hardly have time to look in every bag for valuables.

I guess I just have some disagreement with a lot of the posters here. Until VX places a sign at check-in (or even in small print on their Contract of Carriage) that reads:

"VIRGIN AMERICA AND THE CONTRACTORS IT HIRES HAS MULTIPLE THIEVES. YOU SHOULD EXPECT THE LUGGAGE YOU ENTRUST TO US (for an additional $25 per bag, suckers) WILL GET VALUABLE ITEMS STOLEN OUT OF THEM. IF THEY ARE NOT STOLEN YOU ARE LUCKY",

I will still hold the position that the airline bears responsibility which, by the way, VX agrees in their Contract of Carriage (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:uRlWaTO2RmsJ:www.virginamerica.com/html/contract-of-carriage.pdf+virgin+america+contract+of+carriage&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShr_yiD2cgB1kM99GvoaKyIIN269PP7FfuiZqeo oVWy5y8HBd7QNOSbB7aRx51Og23DcHA8kEecptAEwshzknNyPk hdc8HM6AiQkfJEVuCfGGyhbPCzksDN51g627zxDCrHXdfP&sig=AHIEtbSXWmaOxrwqYl787q1IX5nI6zGO0w) with the loss liability, with some exceptions, of $3,300.00. Yes, I agree with everyone that putting valuables in checked luggage is inadvisable, but when a criminal act takes place, it is the criminal's fault, not the victim's. I don't believe in the "She wore a mini-skirt so she deserved to get raped" mentality. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

Carry on.

Two entirely different issues:

1. Catch the thief and s/he can be prosecuted for the Federal felony of theft from an interstate shipment. Sentence can include restitution to your GF or your GF can sue the individual.

2. I can't pull up the full baggage rules for VX, but could swear that there's a provision excluding valuables such as electronics and jewelry for all of the obvious reasons.

So, your choices are to forget it, file a claim against her homeowners / renters or if the ticket was bought with a CC that has coverage included, file there.

What happened to your GF was wrong, but doesn't mean that VX, TSA, airports authority at LAX or JFK are liable.

2. I can't pull up the full baggage rules for VX, but could swear that there's a provision excluding valuables such as electronics and jewelry for all of the obvious reasons.

This is from the FAQ...

Virgin America is not liable for the following items in your checked baggage: cash; jewelry; electronics; laptop computers; fragile items; medications; car keys; or important documents.

http://virginamerica.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/79/session/L3RpbWUvMTMyMjA5NTIzNi9zaWQvRjg3eWpUSms%3D

Oakshadow, I think there are two separate but related issues here. First, I agree with you that it is completely unacceptable for someone to steal these items, being put in luggage and sent down is not an excuse for that to be done. If I was the airline I would want to know that this had happened - not because I owe the passenger compensation, but because I would want this investigated and the person responsible terminated/prosecuted. Its simply bad business to have a thief associated with your company.

At the same time, it is probably not the most responsible thing to check an item of high value in your bag. You mention the contract of carriage - Virgin America's (and I'm sure all the other airlines) has a section saying "Other items which are not well-suited for transportation (with or without Virgin
America's knowledge) are accepted only at the Guest's own risk. In such cases Virgin America will not be liable for damage, loss or spoilage of the items." Electronics equipment is listed as one of these such items. This is more leaving your car unlocked parked on the street with valuables inside then being out wearing a miniskirt - I would agree that your friend does not shoulder the blame, but she could have prevented it from happening.

I guess I just have some disagreement with a lot of the posters here. Until VX places a sign at check-in (or even in small print on their Contract of Carriage) that reads:

"VIRGIN AMERICA AND THE CONTRACTORS IT HIRES HAS MULTIPLE THIEVES. YOU SHOULD EXPECT THE LUGGAGE YOU ENTRUST TO US (for an additional $25 per bag, suckers) WILL GET VALUABLE ITEMS STOLEN OUT OF THEM. IF THEY ARE NOT STOLEN YOU ARE LUCKY",

I will still hold the position that the airline bears responsibility which, by the way, VX agrees in their Contract of Carriage (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:uRlWaTO2RmsJ:www.virginamerica.com/html/contract-of-carriage.pdf+virgin+america+contract+of+carriage&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShr_yiD2cgB1kM99GvoaKyIIN269PP7FfuiZqeo oVWy5y8HBd7QNOSbB7aRx51Og23DcHA8kEecptAEwshzknNyPk hdc8HM6AiQkfJEVuCfGGyhbPCzksDN51g627zxDCrHXdfP&sig=AHIEtbSXWmaOxrwqYl787q1IX5nI6zGO0w) with the loss liability, with some exceptions, of $3,300.00. Yes, I agree with everyone that putting valuables in checked luggage is inadvisable, but when a criminal act takes place, it is the criminal's fault, not the victim's. I don't believe in the "She wore a mini-skirt so she deserved to get raped" mentality. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

Carry on.

Sorry Oakshadow, also should have tried to answer your original question. I count four different people (companies, ie TSA, handlers, etc) who would have direct reason to have access to your bag. There are also some points where others who have no reason to be touching your bag may be able to access it (ie, it may be in a bag room on the ramp where there are other airport employees, it may end up off of the carousel before you get down there and there have been known to be thieves that wait by arrival carousels).

This is from the FAQ...

Virgin America is not liable for the following items in your checked baggage: cash; jewelry; electronics; laptop computers; fragile items; medications; car keys; or important documents.

http://virginamerica.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/79/session/L3RpbWUvMTMyMjA5NTIzNi9zaWQvRjg3eWpUSms%3D

I know the airline contracts of carriage almost universally state this, but I'm not sure the disclaimer of liability is lawful:

http://www.elliott.org/blog/government-says-airlines-are-responsible-for-valuables-checked-on-international-flights/

It looks like that provision of the CoC is invalid per the Montreal Convention and the DOT's reading of it. Let me know if the airlines have somehow addressed this or managed a re-writing of the relevant articles. Otherwise, though, it looks like VX is still liable for electronics per the Convention, which would nullify any liability waiver to the contrary.

I know the airline contracts of carriage almost universally state this, but I'm not sure the disclaimer of liability is lawful:

http://www.elliott.org/blog/government-says-airlines-are-responsible-for-valuables-checked-on-international-flights/

It looks like that provision of the CoC is invalid per the Montreal Convention and the DOT's reading of it. Let me know if the airlines have somehow addressed this or managed a re-writing of the relevant articles. Otherwise, though, it looks like VX is still liable for electronics per the Convention, which would nullify any liability waiver to the contrary.

That information you cited is for international flights. It does not apply in this case.

'In other words, an airline can continue to refuse to compensate passengers for lost items that are considered “valuables” on domestic routes. But not internationally'

Without getting into specifics - I know many folks who have dealt with baggage claims for air carriers.

VX is NOT liable for the items. Period. You can reinterpret whatever rules you want, but you will lose in court. I know this for a fact. Test it at your own peril.

All carriers have this exclusion. They do it in part due to absurd fraud claims by passengers who are looking to milk the system and make a buck.

I am in NO WAY suggesting this is the case with your friend. I AM presenting it as information because it is relevant. You could not imagine the number of fraudulent claims filed weekly. Exclusions like the Electronics item (and drugs, car keys, etc) are there for a reason. And those exclusions stick. This is why many web sites with tips for travels as well as carriers own websites have clear information about what to pack in your carry on and what to pack in checked baggage.

Regarding what to do if something is stolen, this is the relevant FAQ:
http://virginamerica.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/235/kw/Prohibited%20Items/session/L3RpbWUvMTMyMjEwMDYxOC9zaWQvelV6ekVUSms%3D

Regarding items VX is not responsible for in checked baggage:
http://virginamerica.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/79/kw/lock%20bags

Yes, I agree with everyone that putting valuables in checked luggage is inadvisable, but when a criminal act takes place, it is the criminal's fault, not the victim's. I don't believe in the "She wore a mini-skirt so she deserved to get raped" mentality. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

Here is where we disagree. I don't think that packing valuables was merely "inadvisable," I think it was a very dumb thing to do. As in, "going to a bad neighborhood and counting out a pile of Benjamins in public" dumb thing to do.

Ultimately, regardless of what justifications you can provide, your friend bears some responsibility here (and not just because that's what's in the airlines' CoC). Either she know it was risky and did it anyway, or she learned a very expensive lesson.

It is just plain idiotic beyond belief to put a notebook and ipad in checked luggage and expect it to be there on arrival, the fact that it was stolen proves it, and if it is there at arrival then breathe a sigh of relief. It's a shame that everyone isn't honest as we could turn prisons into hotels or tourist attractions, maybe somewhere for the homeless to live. But not on this planet. Your friend needs to wake up and smell the roses.

Sorry Oakshadow, also should have tried to answer your original question. I count four different people (companies, ie TSA, handlers, etc) who would have direct reason to have access to your bag. There are also some points where others who have no reason to be touching your bag may be able to access it (ie, it may be in a bag room on the ramp where there are other airport employees, it may end up off of the carousel before you get down there and there have been known to be thieves that wait by arrival carousels).

Exactly. There's been rings of baggage thieves busted at several airports. The iPad could have gone home with a number of different folks. Since you can't prove who took it, you can't prove that it's the airline's fault. Regardless of how you interpret the CoC, if's pretty hard to get someone to pay you for stolen items if you can't prove who stole them.

In fact, since the bag was secured with a TSA-approved lock, that would make the TSA, not the airline, the likely suspect, since the TSA has keys to those locks and the airline doesn't. Of course, they'll probably say they might have forgotten to close the lock but no way did they steal the iPad, so it must have been a stranger who intercepted the bag at baggage claim....


BTW not being able to put your iPad in your checked bag isn't a new concept. Stealing has been around for almost as long as organized civilization has. The OP asks "what's wrong with society if my friend can't leave expensive stuff unattended and expect to see it again.". Well I suppose the answer is "Society has people in it.". Get enough people together and one of them will turn out to be the dishonest one. And the combination of unattended valuables and nobody watching can be too much temptation for folks. Jobs and places with unfettered access to other people's stuff are extremely attractive to folks looking to be dishonest. You just increase your chance for failure by letting them have access to your valuables.

TSA people have been caught time and time again stealing from luggage (through hidden cameras). They're just getting smarter about avoiding the cameras...

Some people won't like either, but here they are for what they are worth..

1. I have traveled millions of miles domestic and international on all kinds of carriers through all kinds of doubtful airports - from time to time I have put computers in bags as I have been out of space to carry on - as much as I know this is asking for trouble. I have never lost anything - well that is not quite true - I lost a kitchen knife few weeks ago - cost all of 50 cents from the dollar store - I think the TSA did not like me having a nasty looking knife when I arrived at the far end - very weird of them but some of them are a bit weird. They could have left a note. I was going to report it but could not be bothered in the end - I'd just end up on their weirdos list and take an extra hour to get on planes in the future.

2. A colleague at work once lost a very expensive camera in a checked bag. Now who puts a really good camera in a checked bag unless they want it smashed? He claimed on insurance and got the money. I have always bet he was lying. He did not travel much either - the odds seemed against it being true. Nice guy I am eh, but that's what I believe.

So, I just shrug at this thread and think of my dear Mom's comment that you should do what seems right and sensible in life - and putting expensive stuff in checked bags and expecting it to arrive does not fit her advice.

iPads aren't particularly large, or heavy. If it doesn't fit in the carryon, then hold it.

Did the laptop and iPad actually make it into the luggage in the first place?

When I fly I never put any electronic into my checked bag unless I want to kiss it goodbye. Doesn't the airline have a clause stating that "We are not responsible for checked electronics, medications and to put important medications and keys in your carry on luggage".

I'm LOLing right now because an IPAD is so light and easy to put into a bookbag. I carry a heavier laptop with me without any complaints. To check in an IPAD that you can use to read books, listen to music is just plain dumb. I want an IPAD so I can leave the heavy laptop at home!!!

Please have your friend read this post!!!

If your friend booked the trip with a credit card such as the World Elite Master Card, Visa Signature Credit Card they may be able to help you if you booked the ticket using that credit card.

She may need to go after he home insurance policy to claim the items as lost and she needs to have a copy of all reports.

At this point I would have her log onto her ICloud Account and disables access to it and track it to see where the last location is if its connected to WiFi.

My speculation is a greedy passenger opened a bag and said "Here is a new IPad let me have one".

Had your friend had a TSA approved lock and she locked it the TSA would have had to re lock it after the search so if it came unlocked you know its a TSA agent.

I hope your friend gets reunited with her electronics and let this be a lesson never check in your electronics unless you want to risk having it stolen. Would you leave your laptop unattended in a public location? Starbucks would not be responsible if your laptop was stolen from their establishment.

The airline is therefore not responsible for your loss since the Code of Carriage clearly state what items can be checked and what the liability is.

Your friend can whine and put blame on the airline but the judge will look at the contract and tell your friend that she should have carried her IPAD on or left it at home.

Had your friend had a TSA approved lock and she locked it the TSA would have had to re lock it after the search so if it came unlocked you know its a TSA agent.


How, exactly, would this have helped? :rolleyes:

Chances are pretty high that the iPad was stolen by the TSA. If the OP's friend had used a TSA-approved lock, the only thing that would change is the topic of this thread......to: "TSA stole my iPad!!!"

There's are dozens and dozens of accounts of people having expensive items lifted from their bags during TSA inspection. To date, the TSA has only pursued a handful of theft claims and appears to have no interest in pursuing more.

How, exactly, would this have helped? :rolleyes:

Chances are pretty high that the iPad was stolen by the TSA. If the OP's friend had used a TSA-approved lock, the only thing that would change is the topic of this thread......to: "TSA stole my iPad!!!"

There's are dozens and dozens of accounts of people having expensive items lifted from their bags during TSA inspection. To date, the TSA has only pursued a handful of theft claims and appears to have no interest in pursuing more.

The TSA has never stolen a thing. Everything removed from luggage has been done to ensure the safety of passengers, and to ensure the freedom of fliers. :rolleyes:

i think most of us here in this forum travel a decent amount so we view this as being a pretty obvious thing. however, i have traveled with people before who put some valuable stuff in their bags and i have warned them but they simply think it's me being paranoid.

a lot of people who don't travel think nothing of checking in valuables in their baggage. they think it's more like sending something via US mail than handing a stranger their bag and hoping that it makes it to the other side. it's like ferris bueller saying that the valet is a "professional" so the ferrari should be ok.

my wife sort of laughs because when we last traveled overseas i had a backpack filled with my laptop, ipad, cell phone, digital slr, lenses, cash, etc. i probably was carrying around like $10k worth of stuff. she was like "i hope you don't get mugged..."

Interesting.. The TSA is seen as the only real candidate by many... not least because "they are the ones who scan the bags and therefore are the ones who know what is in them"... (paraphrase there)

So presumably back before the TSA and baggage screening nothing ever got stolen out of checked baggage.. right?

..except that my only experience with such matters was long before the TSA existed....

Personally I still suspect the baggage handlers..... and I have about as much rational evidence for that suspicion as I would have in automatically blaming the TSA....;)

Personally I still suspect the baggage handlers..... and I have about as much rational evidence for that suspicion as I would have in automatically blaming the TSA....;)

My money would be on the baggage handlers. They will open up luggage while they are inside of the cargo hold if they've got the extra time. I once had a military flight suit stolen out of my luggage ... it was gate checked.

As for TSA safe locks - I want to ensure everyone on this website that if a baggage handler is going to rifle through your luggage, he's got a key to every TSA safe lock out there.

Well, folks, you might point to baggage handlers, but this story might open your eyes:

http://news.yahoo.com/police-tsa-agent-jfk-stole-5k-passenger-163552145.html