Ok, I don't know if this belongs here or what, but since I am really pissed and I want to let it go, here is what happened to me on a FRA-SFO last week, seating upstairs in C class
Dinner was the standard united short ribs. I have. The woman next to me starts looking funny so I ask her what is wrong.
And then she starts asking me if I realize how much suffering I am causing eating meat and how much water was needed to produce that piece of meat and that meat is unhealthy all the condescending stuff.
And it's not the first time it happens and I am really FED UP with moralizing bigots telling what I should eat or not eat
So is there to anybody's knowledge any organization that takes care of producing unbiased stories that prove that meat is NOT unhealthy and that vegans are actually killing themselves by eating nothing but salads.
Alright now I spat it out :o
mikeef
Nov 18, 11, 1:40 pm
As a proud member of PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals), I fully support your decision. My people have worked too long and hard for me to get to the top of the food chain for me to eat vegetables exclusively.
Mike
jrolland1975
Nov 18, 11, 1:47 pm
People for the Eating of Tasty Animals: I think I've never laughed so much since Sheldon Cooper was The Flash....
roberino
Nov 18, 11, 1:58 pm
I'm a firm believer in eat what you like and leave everybody else alone for their choices. I'm a passionate meat eater, but on moral grounds I won't eat foie gras or veal. If you want to, fine, go ahead and enjoy it. I promise I won't say a darn thing or look at you funny.
But when pontificating veggies and vegans bang on about suffering of animals and carbon footprints to my face WHILE I'M EATING I usually tell them to shut the **** up.
The last one who did this to me got a mouthful of abuse about, A, being on a plane, B, wearing leather boots, and C, having a diamond of about 1 carat in her engagement ring. I spent the rest of the flight explaining to her how she was an ignorant hypocrite and I was comfortably knowledgeable about what I was doing.
I'm a firm believer in eat what you like and leave everybody else alone for their choices. I'm a passionate meat eater, but on moral grounds I won't eat foie gras or veal. If you want to, fine, go ahead and enjoy it. I promise I won't say a darn thing or look at you funny.
But when pontificating veggies and vegans bang on about suffering of animals and carbon footprints to my face WHILE I'M EATING I usually tell them to shut the **** up.
The last one who did this to me got a mouthful of abuse about, A, being on a plane, B, wearing leather boots, and C, having a diamond of about 1 carat in her engagement ring. I spent the rest of the flight explaining to her how she was an ignorant hypocrite and I was comfortably knowledgeable about what I was doing.
Haha that's much better than a quick volley of abuse.....you gotta wear 'em down baby!
jrolland1975
Nov 18, 11, 2:15 pm
That would be fine with me if tolerance did flow both ways. If you're invited for dinner by some vegans and that you point out that since you`d no doubt be made aware of their special dietary requirements, you want to let them know about yours, and ask for a nice steak, I am sure that would fly well
roberino
Nov 18, 11, 2:23 pm
That would be fine with me if tolerance did flow both ways. If you're invited for dinner by some vegans and that you point out that since you`d no doubt be made aware of their special dietary requirements, you want to let them know about yours, and ask for a nice steak, I am sure that would fly well
Us Brits got to see a fantastic Mitchell and Webb sketch about that. Vegans go to dinner at a couple's house and are served lamb. They say "but we're vegans!" to which the reply is "well we ate vegan when we came to your house, we thought you would eat the same food as us when you came here." You had to be there, but it was funny.
roberino
Nov 18, 11, 2:25 pm
Haha that's much better than a quick volley of abuse.....you gotta wear 'em down baby!
The best part was when she told me to shut up. I asked if she would've shut up if I'd have said the same thing during her don't-eat-meat rant, and she just went quiet, like, totally speechless.
CBear
Nov 18, 11, 2:30 pm
I would have taken a big bite, lean over to her and go....mmm...mmm..mmmm!
jrolland1975
Nov 18, 11, 2:31 pm
I think they tend to like planes because they feel they have a captive audience and also you can't kick their vegan .... But yea you can always tell them to zip it.
Which takes me to another question: is their any federal regulation that would force somebody to stop talking to you're in a plane and can't escape?
AVN
Nov 18, 11, 2:41 pm
As a proud member of PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals)Mike
Hahaha, awesome! Now many miles is the membership fee, and where do I sign up?
We live once, so I prefer to die happy! I might have added something about how this animal lived to feed me, in a different language of course..
tcl
Nov 18, 11, 6:11 pm
I'm a card-toting member of PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) as well :P There's even fb group for it :D Some smart person decided to seat me across from some quite preachy vegans at last year's company dinner, so I ordered the roasted bone marrow for my app and the steak tartare for my entree. I really do love my veggies but they both really got on my nerves throughout the year so I made quite the spectacle slurping the marrow out of the bones. :D :p
I would consistently get peanut gallery comments from those 2 at work whether I had a salad or chicken for lunch. Very annoying.
bobsyouruncle
Nov 18, 11, 7:41 pm
Us Brits got to see a fantastic Mitchell and Webb sketch about that. Vegans go to dinner at a couple's house and are served lamb. They say "but we're vegans!" to which the reply is "well we ate vegan when we came to your house, we thought you would eat the same food as us when you came here." You had to be there, but it was funny.
That is a very funny sketch. Mitchell and Webb are brilliant. For anyone who wants to see the sketch it's available on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63NNuG-6-hQ
Jay71
Nov 19, 11, 4:18 am
Got to say I do feel bad eating meat (kind of) particularly since I don't think I'd be able to kill and butcher and animal myself. Don't think I could give up meat altogether but the wife and I are trying to limit our meat intake.
That said, I've had a number of vegetarian friends and they never gave me a hard time with what I've eaten. It's more a choice on their end vs invoking their beliefs on others.
tentseller
Nov 19, 11, 6:34 am
... That said, I've had a number of vegetarian friends and they never gave me a hard time with what I've eaten. It's more a choice on their end vs invoking their beliefs on others.
^
I have respect for people who made a choice and stand by it and utter disrespect for ones who force their choices upon others.
WChou
Nov 19, 11, 7:25 am
+1. Here is one of the best explanations I've seen for eating meat. (http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=vegetarian_test)
And this as well. (http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=bsitu_speciesism)
Mr. Vker
Nov 19, 11, 7:59 am
Us Brits got to see a fantastic Mitchell and Webb sketch about that. Vegans go to dinner at a couple's house and are served lamb. They say "but we're vegans!" to which the reply is "well we ate vegan when we came to your house, we thought you would eat the same food as us when you came here." You had to be there, but it was funny.
He don't eat no meat? That's ok....I make lamb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnjWZT3yWWc
Gaucho100K
Nov 19, 11, 10:10 am
I would have taken a big bite, lean over to her and go....mmm...mmm..mmmm!
^ :D
DJGMaster1
Nov 19, 11, 10:25 am
IMHO, when confronted by proselytizing vegans, the best reply is to order the veal, if it's on the menu.
jrolland1975
Nov 19, 11, 10:26 am
PETA wants San Francisco to change the name of the Tenderloin, that's what I am talking about, 5% of the population terrorizing the rest and imposing their ideas on us
Read more at the San Francisco Examiner: http://www.sfexaminer.com/politics/blogs/under-dome/2011/03/peta-wants-san-francisco-change-name-tenderloin#ixzz1eAna79vC
PETA wants San Francisco to change the name of the Tenderloin, that's what I am talking about, 5% of the population terrorizing the rest and imposing their ideas on us
Read more at the San Francisco Examiner: http://www.sfexaminer.com/politics/blogs/under-dome/2011/03/peta-wants-san-francisco-change-name-tenderloin#ixzz1eAna79vC
Probably the Tossed Salad is a more appropriate name anyways.
BryanIAH
Nov 19, 11, 11:21 am
Mmm this thread is making me hungry.
Steph3n
Nov 19, 11, 1:00 pm
I have tasty lamb cooking on the slow cooker right now.
http://richardsonfarms.com/Meats.htm
lamb isn't listed here but was available at the farmer's market today.
I am very thankful for great local farms!
GadgetFreak
Nov 19, 11, 1:22 pm
Ok, I don't know if this belongs here or what, but since I am really pissed and I want to let it go, here is what happened to me on a FRA-SFO last week, seating upstairs in C class
Dinner was the standard united short ribs. I have. The woman next to me starts looking funny so I ask her what is wrong.
And then she starts asking me if I realize how much suffering I am causing eating meat and how much water was needed to produce that piece of meat and that meat is unhealthy all the condescending stuff.
And it's not the first time it happens and I am really FED UP with moralizing bigots telling what I should eat or not eat
So is there to anybody's knowledge any organization that takes care of producing unbiased stories that prove that meat is NOT unhealthy and that vegans are actually killing themselves by eating nothing but salads.
Alright now I spat it out :o
I think you should be free to eat whatever you want. And I do eat meat myself. I also think it is wildly inappropriate to lecture people on what they are eating, or for that matter more or less anything else. Minding ones business is a lost art and I would have probably told the person so in no uncertain terms.
Having said that, it is wrong to confuse that freedom with thinking that it is good for you. I suspect a little meat is fine in the diet, but I think it is pretty clear that more fruits and vegetables and less meat is healthier in almost every way from cardiovascular disease risk to cancer risk.
GadgetFreak
Nov 19, 11, 1:25 pm
IMHO, when confronted by proselytizing vegans, the best reply is to order the veal, if it's on the menu.
Having gone to grad school in Ann Arbor in the 70s I learned pretty quickly that the best way to shut down aggressive vegan housemates was to boil a pot of hot dogs.
isotropic
Nov 19, 11, 1:38 pm
That would be fine with me if tolerance did flow both ways. If you're invited for dinner by some vegans and that you point out that since you`d no doubt be made aware of their special dietary requirements, you want to let them know about yours, and ask for a nice steak, I am sure that would fly well
Tolerance flowing both ways would indeed be nice. Haven't eaten meat in over 20 years and I can't count the number rude, harassing, unwelcome comments I've gotten from folks who eat meat, and seem disturbed by the fact that I don't. I've never harassed them or cared what they eat, though. Got better things to do. :cool:
ossipago
Nov 20, 11, 2:21 am
So is there to anybody's knowledge any organization that takes care of producing unbiased stories that prove that meat is NOT unhealthy and that vegans are actually killing themselves by eating nothing but salads.
Unfortunately, reality has it in for you. The proportion of a person's diet consisting of animal products is directly correlated with mortality and morbidity. It's true that a vegan diet is not the healthiest - as I recall, a mostly vegetarian diet supplemented by modest amounts of fish is - but I am pretty sure a vegan diet is better than a red-meat heavy diet on those same metrics. Also, vegans don't eat "nothing but salads" - just like vegetarians don't eat "just vegetables" - despite what airlines might try to serve to them.
slawecki
Nov 20, 11, 7:20 am
Unfortunately, reality has it in for you. The proportion of a person's diet consisting of animal products is directly correlated with mortality and morbidity
can you site a couple studies that show that correlation.
it drives me crazy when we have a family of house guests and a couple of them declare they are vegans, and expect me and my wife to buy and cook for them.
with all these vegans out there, how does wendies and macdonald's make so much money.
jrolland1975
Nov 20, 11, 12:07 pm
I do not buy that for a minute. I am convinced that this is pure propaganda put together by PETA and the likes. I do not have any qualitative basis to support claim (this is why I originally asked for studies) but I have a few facts that tend to support my claim:
1. Life expectancy is higher in countries with high beef consumption: Japan, France
1 Japan 82.6 79.0 86.1
2 Hong Kong ( China) 82.2 79.4 85.1
3 Iceland 81.8 80.2 83.3
4 Switzerland 81.7 79.0 84.2
5 Israel 81.6 79.7 83.4
6 Australia 81.2 78.9 83.6
7 Spain 80.9 77.7 84.2
8 Sweden 80.9 78.7 83.0
9 Macau ( China) 80.7 78.5 82.8
10 France (metropolitan) 80.7 77.1 84.1
So there seems to be a correlation between meat consumption and high life expectancy
Second, the life expectancy increased dramatically in the past 200 years, and so did the individual consumption of meat. Whenever people COULD consume more meat, they WOULD. And they would become stronger and more healthy.
Similarly, while India is at the bottom of meat consumption, it is also at the bottom of life expectancy.
Once again I know correlation is not causation, but I challenge the vegans to produce unbiased stories proving that eating meat is unhealthy. What is probably unhealthy is to overeat and to avoid exercising.
roberino
Nov 20, 11, 12:17 pm
So there seems to be a correlation between meat consumption and high life expectancy
Second, the life expectancy increased dramatically in the past 200 years, and so did the individual consumption of meat. Whenever people COULD consume more meat, they WOULD. And they would become stronger and more healthy.
Similarly, while India is at the bottom of meat consumption, it is also at the bottom of life expectancy.
Once again I know correlation is not causation, but I challenge the vegans to produce unbiased stories proving that eating meat is unhealthy. What is probably unhealthy is to overeat and to avoid exercising.
And in other news, there is a perfect correlation with people who drink water and death. Meat consumption is directly related to economic wealth of a country, which, in turn, is related to social welfare and health programs, which, in turn, lead to greater life expectancy.
GadgetFreak
Nov 20, 11, 12:23 pm
I do not buy that for a minute. I am convinced that this is pure propaganda put together by PETA and the likes. I do not have any qualitative basis to support claim (this is why I originally asked for studies) but I have a few facts that tend to support my claim:
1. Life expectancy is higher in countries with high beef consumption: Japan, France
1 Japan 82.6 79.0 86.1
2 Hong Kong ( China) 82.2 79.4 85.1
3 Iceland 81.8 80.2 83.3
4 Switzerland 81.7 79.0 84.2
5 Israel 81.6 79.7 83.4
6 Australia 81.2 78.9 83.6
7 Spain 80.9 77.7 84.2
8 Sweden 80.9 78.7 83.0
9 Macau ( China) 80.7 78.5 82.8
10 France (metropolitan) 80.7 77.1 84.1
So there seems to be a correlation between meat consumption and high life expectancy
Second, the life expectancy increased dramatically in the past 200 years, and so did the individual consumption of meat. Whenever people COULD consume more meat, they WOULD. And they would become stronger and more healthy.
Similarly, while India is at the bottom of meat consumption, it is also at the bottom of life expectancy.
Once again I know correlation is not causation, but I challenge the vegans to produce unbiased stories proving that eating meat is unhealthy. What is probably unhealthy is to overeat and to avoid exercising.
You cant compare whole countries to other countries, there are too many other differences. But if you want to do that, try comparing the US, conveniently missing above, which has very high beef consumption, with the others. The US is like 27th or 28th in life expectancy. Also comparing a country like India to Japan is to be honest, totally laughable.
As for the bolded part, two words: 1) sanitation 2) antibiotics
By the way, they apply a lot to the difference in India and Japan as well.
The leading cause of combined mortality/morbidity in terms of lost days of productive life from either death or disability is diarrhea in the developing world and cardiovascular disease in the developed world (per the WHO and it has been that way for a long time).
sillypainter
Nov 20, 11, 12:27 pm
As a proud member of PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals), I fully support your decision. My people have worked too long and hard for me to get to the top of the food chain for me to eat vegetables exclusively.
Mike
I love that line........
Keep it strong, and don't be fooled by those OWS and PETA people, all they need is a day job, and all will be fine...
ossipago
Nov 20, 11, 12:58 pm
You cant compare whole countries to other countries, there are too many other differences. But if you want to do that, try comparing the US, conveniently missing above, which has very high beef consumption, with the others. The US is like 27th or 28th in life expectancy. Also comparing a country like India to Japan is to be honest, totally laughable.
...
The leading cause of combined mortality/morbidity in terms of lost days of productive life from either death or disability is diarrhea in the developing world and cardiovascular disease in the developed world (per the WHO and it has been that way for a long time).
Exactly. Studying this is extremely difficult given the number of things to control for: health care, social support, economic status, lifestyle variance, vaccinations, etc. I don't have the citation offhand, but there is at least one study of intra-country diet, from France, that looked at differences between Mediterranean (meat-light) and northern diets, and came out in favor of the former.
Gaucho100K
Nov 20, 11, 1:03 pm
To stay on topic..... who wants to sign up for the Cow Do....??? :D :D
And yes.... we do eat A LOT of dead cow when we are down here......
Ok, I don't know if this belongs here or what, but since I am really pissed and I want to let it go, here is what happened to me on a FRA-SFO last week, seating upstairs in C class
Dinner was the standard united short ribs. I have. The woman next to me starts looking funny so I ask her what is wrong.
And then she starts asking me if I realize how much suffering I am causing eating meat and how much water was needed to produce that piece of meat and that meat is unhealthy all the condescending stuff.Ok, first things first. WHAT A B*TCH! Who invited her to JUDGE you? Did you ask her about her leather shoes? Her leather belts? Leather purse? Leather wallet? Leather gloves?
You could have asked her if she realized how much suffering she is causing by pedantically judging others without first seeing if her interference is even welcomed? Then tell her no one invited her to spew her intolerance at you. :rolleyes:
Then say, that you ADORE veal piccata. ^ Ok, well I do. ;)
I would have taken a big bite, lean over to her and go....mmm...mmm..mmmm!Definitely. And do it often.
ossipago
Nov 20, 11, 1:12 pm
I think you should be free to eat whatever you want. And I do eat meat myself. I also think it is wildly inappropriate to lecture people on what they are eating, or for that matter more or less anything else. Minding ones business is a lost art and I would have probably told the person so in no uncertain terms.
A lost art? Since when? You don't actually have a right to not be lectured. Especially in an airplane, which is not in actuality a public space but pretty much functions like one. The founders of the U.S. did not protect a right to silence or to not be annoyed, but the right to speech. If you don't buy the arguments, fine - but listening to them IS the price you pay for living in a "free" society (one, which, by the way, subsidizes the price of meat to a vast extent).
BadTime
Nov 20, 11, 1:13 pm
Shame they didn't serve veal on the flight. :D
magiciansampras
Nov 20, 11, 1:15 pm
And in other news, there is a perfect correlation with people who drink water and death. Meat consumption is directly related to economic wealth of a country, which, in turn, is related to social welfare and health programs, which, in turn, lead to greater life expectancy.
^
roberino
Nov 20, 11, 2:14 pm
A lost art? Since when? You don't actually have a right to not be lectured. Especially in an airplane, which is not in actuality a public space but pretty much functions like one. The founders of the U.S. did not protect a right to silence or to not be annoyed, but the right to speech. If you don't buy the arguments, fine - but listening to them IS the price you pay for living in a "free" society (one, which, by the way, subsidizes the price of meat to a vast extent).
We don't live in a free society. Sorry, we just don't.
GadgetFreak
Nov 20, 11, 2:15 pm
A lost art? Since when? You don't actually have a right to not be lectured. Especially in an airplane, which is not in actuality a public space but pretty much functions like one. The founders of the U.S. did not protect a right to silence or to not be annoyed, but the right to speech. If you don't buy the arguments, fine - but listening to them IS the price you pay for living in a "free" society (one, which, by the way, subsidizes the price of meat to a vast extent).
I think you rather broadly missed my point. I said art, not constitutional right. While one might have a constitutional right to be a boorish busybody, that doesn't mean they should feel compelled to avail themselves of that right.
roberino
Nov 20, 11, 2:16 pm
I think you rather broadly missed my point. I said art, not constitutional right. While one might have a constitutional right to be a boorish busybody, that doesn't mean they should feel compelled to avail themselves of that right.
^^^^
dcpatti
Nov 20, 11, 2:21 pm
I love to remind preachy folks like this, how many things AREN'T vegetarian. The processing/refining of white sugar can often be non-vegetarian. Dental anesthetic often isn't vegetarian. And some beers/wines aren't vegetarian. Anything "enriched with Omega-3" is just enriched with fish. True, the sugar refining process is getting away from use of bone char filters, and my neighborhood bar now has a vegan beer menu, but it's still very hard to lead an animal-free existence.
I'm not sure if I enjoy exposing a hypocrite more than seeing that "oh no" look on the pushy person's face when they learn how many beers are filtered.
Either way, unless I'm killing the cow in front of you on the plane, mind your own business. If you think you've got a right to lecture me, then I've got a right to tell you to stfu. Right after I tell you what's in your Omega 3 Orange Juice.
raistlin
Nov 20, 11, 2:59 pm
As a proud member of PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals), I fully support your decision. My people have worked too long and hard for me to get to the top of the food chain for me to eat vegetables exclusively.
Mike
+1, totally.
magiciansampras
Nov 20, 11, 3:00 pm
I love to remind preachy folks like this, how many things AREN'T vegetarian. The processing/refining of white sugar can often be non-vegetarian. Dental anesthetic often isn't vegetarian. And some beers/wines aren't vegetarian. Anything "enriched with Omega-3" is just enriched with fish. True, the sugar refining process is getting away from use of bone char filters, and my neighborhood bar now has a vegan beer menu, but it's still very hard to lead an animal-free existence.
I'm not sure if I enjoy exposing a hypocrite more than seeing that "oh no" look on the pushy person's face when they learn how many beers are filtered.
Either way, unless I'm killing the cow in front of you on the plane, mind your own business. If you think you've got a right to lecture me, then I've got a right to tell you to stfu. Right after I tell you what's in your Omega 3 Orange Juice.
Really? There is fish in my orange juice? Interesting.
ossipago
Nov 20, 11, 3:17 pm
Really? There is fish in my orange juice? Interesting.
Yes, many foods fortified with omega-3 fatty acids do so via fish oil. There are plenty of vegetarian sources of omega-3s, however, such as flaxseed, nuts, and many microalgaes, but they require a little work to find.
In general, everyone would be better off knowing the ingredients in their food and their sources.
magiciansampras
Nov 20, 11, 3:24 pm
Yes, many foods fortified with omega-3 fatty acids do so via fish oil. There are plenty of vegetarian sources of omega-3s, however, such as flaxseed, nuts, and many microalgaes, but they require a little work to find.
In general, everyone would be better off knowing the ingredients in their food and their sources.
Agree completely. And I don't mind that there is fish in my orange juice in the least (I take fish oil at night anyway), but it is surprising to me. ^
jrolland1975
Nov 20, 11, 6:57 pm
no there isn't. Everybody drinks water. It would help if you had some notion of the mathematical concepts you are trying to throw at me
PebbleBeach
Nov 20, 11, 6:59 pm
Probably the Tossed Salad is a more appropriate name anyways.
jrolland1975
Nov 20, 11, 7:01 pm
The US is behind in terms of life expectancy because we overeat, not because we eat a lot of meat.
ossipago
Nov 20, 11, 7:05 pm
no there isn't. Everybody drinks water. It would help if you had some notion of the mathematical concepts you are trying to throw at me
The US is behind in terms of life expectancy because we overeat, not because we eat a lot of meat.
First you complain about people not understanding how correlations work, then you make a blanket (and simplistic) causal statement about U.S. life expectancy? U.S. life expectancy is a complex issue having to do with far more than obesity, but also quality of health care, built environment, geographic distribution of population, commuting habits, stress levels, and yes, dietary contents.
Kevin AA
Nov 20, 11, 7:06 pm
I don't apologize for liking meat either. I enjoy being at the top of the food chain! :p
PTravel
Nov 20, 11, 7:22 pm
That is a very funny sketch. Mitchell and Webb are brilliant. For anyone who wants to see the sketch it's available on YouTube:
Yes, many foods fortified with omega-3 fatty acids do so via fish oil. There are plenty of vegetarian sources of omega-3s, however, such as flaxseed, nuts, and many microalgaes, but they require a little work to find.
In general, everyone would be better off knowing the ingredients in their food and their sources.Vitamin D3, as well -- most of it comes from lanolin processed from sheep wool.
DJGMaster1
Nov 20, 11, 8:17 pm
You must be referring to the other side of Market St
Pretty much anywhere in that city
jrolland1975
Nov 20, 11, 11:47 pm
I am repeating for the third time, with consistency slightly tinted with lassitude, that I do not have any quantitative studies to support the claim meat is not unhealthy. I was asking for such studies. All I am saying is that countries that do have high meat consumptions per capita, COMPARATIVELY are also countries that have high life expectancy, COMPARATIVELY. I am also stating the factual observation that life expectancy increased in the past 200 years at the same time as people stopped eating dough and potatoes and started to enjoy hamburgers.
These are facts that do not coincide with the stereotype that vegans live longer.
That stereotype actually originated from one study called The Adventist Health Study, a huge study of Seventh Day Adventists who ate little or no meat and showed longevity increases of 7.28 years in men and 4.42 years in women. These data are confounded by the fact that Seventh Day Adventists follow healthy lifestyles free of tobacco and alcohol.
Most other studies either show no difference or are inconclusive. A fascinating paper recently published in the journal Mechanisms of Aging and Development presents an entirely new theory to explain why vegetarians do not live longer. It turns out that those who avoid eating beef suffer a deficiency of a nutrient (carnosine) that is critical to preventing lethal glycation reactions in the body.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/jan2006_awsi_01.htm
roberino
Nov 21, 11, 4:27 am
no there isn't. Everybody drinks water. It would help if you had some notion of the mathematical concepts you are trying to throw at me
A stunning demonstration in how to miss the point. As it happens I do have "some notion of the mathematical concepts" I'm talking about as I frequently review analytical chemistry manuscripts for journals, and they mostly involve statistical analysis. I reject the ones that try to use statistics to make conclusions from correlations that are coincidental, such as your post. Meat eating cannot be said to be responsible for longer lifespan simply because societies with a high meat consumption live longer.
GadgetFreak
Nov 21, 11, 4:50 am
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)
I am repeating for the third time, with consistency slightly tinted with lassitude, that I do not have any quantitative studies to support the claim meat is not unhealthy. I was asking for such studies. All I am saying is that countries that do have high meat consumptions per capita, COMPARATIVELY are also countries that have high life expectancy, COMPARATIVELY. I am also stating the factual observation that life expectancy increased in the past 200 years at the same time as people stopped eating dough and potatoes and started to enjoy hamburgers.
These are facts that do not coincide with the stereotype that vegans live longer.
That stereotype actually originated from one study called The Adventist Health Study, a huge study of Seventh Day Adventists who ate little or no meat and showed longevity increases of 7.28 years in men and 4.42 years in women. These data are confounded by the fact that Seventh Day Adventists follow healthy lifestyles free of tobacco and alcohol.
Most other studies either show no difference or are inconclusive. A fascinating paper recently published in the journal Mechanisms of Aging and Development presents an entirely new theory to explain why vegetarians do not live longer. It turns out that those who avoid eating beef suffer a deficiency of a nutrient (carnosine) that is critical to preventing lethal glycation reactions in the body.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/jan2006_awsi_01.htm
As I said before, and you ignored, comparing lifespan in Japan and India and saying the difference is meat consumption is laughable. You also ignored the the fact that most of the gain in lifespan in the last two centuries is due to sanitation and antibiotics.
Your comments on the Adventist studies are likewise wrong. The issue of smoking is only a confounder if only one group smokes. I dont think that was the case in those studies.
USA_flyer
Nov 21, 11, 7:30 am
I like meat and would be mighty irritated with someone who preached at me about eating meat.
piper28
Nov 21, 11, 11:13 am
If the vegetarians give me any hassle, I just like to point out that they've chosen to place themselves far down on the food-chain, and if we run out of food, things that eat only vegetables are going to be next up for us meat eaters.
Gaucho100K
Nov 21, 11, 11:23 am
Really? There is fish in my orange juice? Interesting.
Actually... the interesting question is.... is the fish juice that adds the Omega 3 also made in Florida...? I mean, we are paying a premium cause' its 100% Florida grown and made in the USA.... right....???
:rolleyes:
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 2:17 pm
That's your opinion. It's not what observation suggests.
Incidentally, let's say that at time 0, you have a population of 100. At time 1, 10 have died. Assuming that at time 0 everyone would drink water, which is your own assumption, there is absolutely no correlation between drinking water and dying (I wrote the series down for you so you can think about it). If you're trying to stun the rest of us, try at least to find an example that makes sense
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Your comments on the Adventist studies are likewise wrong. The issue of smoking is only a confounder if only one group smokes. I dont think that was the case in those studies.
The Adventists are non-smokers by construction. The other groups had smokers, so technically only one group had smokers.
The point is there is, to my knowledge, no conclusive evidence that vegans live longer than meat-esters. Or if there is, feel free to share with us, your friends.
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 2:28 pm
I am not sure that they will taste that good
emma69
Nov 21, 11, 2:31 pm
That would be fine with me if tolerance did flow both ways. If you're invited for dinner by some vegans and that you point out that since you`d no doubt be made aware of their special dietary requirements, you want to let them know about yours, and ask for a nice steak, I am sure that would fly well
Perfectly well in my house. I am veggie, not vegan, but unless you are also veggie, or, like my good friend, eat veggie meals more often as the norm (with occasional meat thrown in), you are normally going to find meat served for supper, whether a steak, a roast joint or otherwise. It comes with a few caveats - I don't check the seasoning myself in something like a stew or meat pasta sauce (normally I have a helper to check for me tho!) so if you feel it is under seasonsed for your tastes, please let me know and I will provide hot sauce / herbs etc on demand!
I won't serve milk veal (I don't have an ethical problem with pink veal), and I won't serve foie gras. I will also get a touch annoyed if you are a fussy meat eater - if you eat meat, I expect you to eat meat - not to turn your nose up at oxtail, or such like or shriek when a fish still has its head on. I really can't be doing with 'supermarket meat eaters' who don't have a real idea of where their food comes from, how it is processed etc. If you don't like it, then you can have the veggie dish I have prepared for myself. I don't pander. That goes for kids too. I got some filthy looks and parents scurrying their children away a couple of weeks ago I stood with my friend's four year old and told him which of the cute petting animals he had eaten. He was cool with it, as most kids who are raised aware of where their food comes from.
I will always offer to make something to bring with me for supper at someone else's house, and am happy to have 'just the veggies' if someone 'forgets' that I don't eat fish (really, I have a darling friend, we've known each other 18 years or so, and she STILL thinks I eat fish)
I try to avoid animal products where I can - I don't opt for Omega 3 orange juice (or pasta, or margerine or bread), I avoid gelatin in things like candy and yogurt, I skip McDonalds french fries in Canada, question items like refried beans in mexican restaurants, and take a pass on lots of commercially baked items like twinkies. I do have leather shoes, and have fox hunted in the past. I've visited abbatoirs, skinned a deer, removed lead shot from a variety of birds, and sent family pets to become pet food. People make a lot of assumptions as to why I do or don't eat / wear certain things and are quick to cry 'hypocrite' when they spot a pair of cute leather stilletoes on my tootsies. I don't lecture others on their choices, but do ask that they respect mine. It really angers me that people have, in the past, tried to 'trick' me into eating meat by hiding it in a dish they claim is veggie. I just don't get what skin off their nose it is for me to choose not to consume meat and fish :(
GadgetFreak
Nov 21, 11, 2:42 pm
The Adventists are non-smokers by construction. The other groups had smokers, so technically only one group had smokers.
The point is there is, to my knowledge, no conclusive evidence that vegans live longer than meat-esters. Or if there is, feel free to share with us, your friends.
I recall the studies being among Adventists who ate meat or didn't. Also, I have never said vegan is important. I said that I think there are significant indications that more fruit and vegetables and less meat is good. Most places that have long lifespans eat small amounts of meat as far as I know.
GadgetFreak
Nov 21, 11, 2:43 pm
That's your opinion. It's not what observation suggests.
Incidentally, let's say that at time 0, you have a population of 100. At time 1, 10 have died. Assuming that at time 0 everyone would drink water, which is your own assumption, there is absolutely no correlation between drinking water and dying (I wrote the series down for you so you can think about it). If you're trying to stun the rest of us, try at least to find an example that makes sense
Perfectly well in my house. I am veggie, not vegan, but unless you are also veggie, or, like my good friend, eat veggie meals more often as the norm (with occasional meat thrown in), you are normally going to find meat served for supper, whether a steak, a roast joint or otherwise. It comes with a few caveats - I don't check the seasoning myself in something like a stew or meat pasta sauce (normally I have a helper to check for me tho!) so if you feel it is under seasonsed for your tastes, please let me know and I will provide hot sauce / herbs etc on demand!
I accept you invitation and will be at your house next Saturday, with my 400 friends of the Red Army Choir :D
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 2:46 pm
nay, to Robertito
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 2:52 pm
more fruit and vegetables and less meat is good.
Thanks for finally agreeing: the problem is not eating meat, the problem is overeating, which we all know clog arteries etc.
Most places that have long lifespans eat small amounts of meat as far as I know. Or eat at regular hours, fresh food, cooked at home, and consumed while sitting at a table by a group of people who are not in and out during dinner.
Which takes me to my point: there is no indication that vegans live longer,but people with regular balanced eating habits seem to live longer.
GadgetFreak
Nov 21, 11, 2:56 pm
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more fruit and vegetables and less meat is good.
Thanks for finally agreeing: the problem is not eating meat, the problem is overeating, which we all know clog arteries etc.
Most places that have long lifespans eat small amounts of meat as far as I know. Or eat at regular hours, fresh food, cooked at home, and consumed while sitting at a table by a group of people who are not in and out during dinner.
Which takes me to my point: there is no indication that vegans live longer,but people with regular balanced eating habits seem to live longer.
No, I'm not agreeing nor, if you read the thread, have I "finally" agreed. I have not changed what I have said throughout the thread. I am not saying it is overrating. I am saying that it is at least partially the ratio of meat in the diet.
ossipago
Nov 21, 11, 2:58 pm
I am repeating for the third time, with consistency slightly tinted with lassitude, that I do not have any quantitative studies to support the claim meat is not unhealthy. I was asking for such studies. All I am saying is that countries that do have high meat consumptions per capita, COMPARATIVELY are also countries that have high life expectancy, COMPARATIVELY. I am also stating the factual observation that life expectancy increased in the past 200 years at the same time as people stopped eating dough and potatoes and started to enjoy hamburgers.
These are facts that do not coincide with the stereotype that vegans live longer.
That stereotype actually originated from one study called The Adventist Health Study, a huge study of Seventh Day Adventists who ate little or no meat and showed longevity increases of 7.28 years in men and 4.42 years in women. These data are confounded by the fact that Seventh Day Adventists follow healthy lifestyles free of tobacco and alcohol.
Most other studies either show no difference or are inconclusive. A fascinating paper recently published in the journal Mechanisms of Aging and Development presents an entirely new theory to explain why vegetarians do not live longer. It turns out that those who avoid eating beef suffer a deficiency of a nutrient (carnosine) that is critical to preventing lethal glycation reactions in the body.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/jan2006_awsi_01.htm
It's clear that you are not looking for objective information about this topic, despite your claims. For one, your language indicates a clear calcification in your position - claims of longevity opposed to your position are referred to as "stereotypes" repeatedly, not in neutral language such as claims, theories, or hypotheses. Furthermore, you demand that people who present such theories meet a vast burden of proof to support their position, including highly sophisticated and nuanced statistical studies, as if the counter position that eating meat is healthy for you is not a claim of the same kind.
Thanks for finally agreeing: the problem is not eating meat, the problem is overeating, which we all know clog arteries etc.
Or eat at regular hours, fresh food, cooked at home, and consumed while sitting at a table by a group of people who are not in and out during dinner.
Which takes me to my point: there is no indication that vegans live longer,but people with regular balanced eating habits seem to live longer.
Furthermore, as in the case above, you intentionally misrepresent the claims of others to lend "support" to your position, while employing vastly different standards of proof for opposing arguments.
If you want to eat meat because you find it enjoyable, that's fine. If you want to also do it without any guilt, then, yes, you are going to have to ignore the significant amount of medical and scientific research that goes against that position.
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 3:09 pm
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No, I'm not agreeing nor, if you read the thread, have I "finally" agreed. I have not changed what I have said throughout the thread. I am not saying it is overrating. I am saying that it is at least partially the ratio of meat in the diet.
Then explain to me why countries with high level of meat consumption per capita like France, Spain, Germany, Sweden, Italy are way ahead in terms of life expectancy. By the way, did you realize that the US is only 17th in terms of meat consumption per capita? How very surprising...
The Spaniards eat twice as much meat per head and they live 4 years longer. How very unfair isn't?
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 3:11 pm
I do it without any guilt, then, yes, you are going to have to ignore the significant amount of medical and scientific research that goes against that position.
Ok, which ones, apart from the Adventist one?
roberino
Nov 21, 11, 3:31 pm
That's your opinion. It's not what observation suggests.
Incidentally, let's say that at time 0, you have a population of 100. At time 1, 10 have died. Assuming that at time 0 everyone would drink water, which is your own assumption, there is absolutely no correlation between drinking water and dying (I wrote the series down for you so you can think about it). If you're trying to stun the rest of us, try at least to find an example that makes sense
I cannot believe I am having to explain this :rolleyes:, but the water/death comment was a (slightly cliched) way of saying that just because there appears to be a correlation between two observations that is not evidence that there is a cause/effect relationship. I don't need a lesson in statistics.
And while I am eternally gratefully for you writing out columns of numbers (I'm guessing you did the rough draft in crayon?), again, you have catastrophically missed the point, which was, that just because everyone who at some point in their lives has drunk water eventually dies it does not mean that water causes death. In fact, as everyone knows, if you don't drink water you will die, so the point of the sarcastic comment was that the badly applied statistics purport to prove the opposite of what is actually true.
The same can be true of meat-eating and longevity, and it is such a complex issue (biochemically, physiologically, sociologically, etc.) that there is no reasonable way of resolving the interwoven aspects of it to come to a certain conclusion either way.
PS: Please don't bang on about this any more. You've already become the guy who refuses to laugh a joke because it doesn't make any sense that a monkey could be a priest...
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 3:42 pm
Yes my avatar is Dr Shelton Cooper. Since you seem to be a good guy despite your poor mathematical skills, I incorporate a footage of me being frustrated at your first post and how I dealt with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpeF067Hx2Y
roberino
Nov 21, 11, 3:51 pm
Yes my avatar is Dr Shelton Cooper. Since you seem to be a good guy despite your poor mathematical skills, I incorporate a footage of me being frustrated at your first post and how I dealt with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpeF067Hx2Y
Dude, I got a first in my maths modules in undergrad, one of which was stats. You're not a scientist or a mathematician. Anyway, the comment was a joke. Since we seem to be unable to agree on the meat thing (the living longer bit, not the pompous, didactic veggies bit) I say we call a truce. 'K?
You're in my spot, by the way...
Steph3n
Nov 21, 11, 4:16 pm
Perfectly well in my house. I am veggie, not vegan, but unless you are also veggie, or, like my good friend, eat veggie meals more often as the norm (with occasional meat thrown in), you are normally going to find meat served for supper, whether a steak, a roast joint or otherwise. It comes with a few caveats - I don't check the seasoning myself in something like a stew or meat pasta sauce (normally I have a helper to check for me tho!) so if you feel it is under seasonsed for your tastes, please let me know and I will provide hot sauce / herbs etc on demand!
I won't serve milk veal (I don't have an ethical problem with pink veal), and I won't serve foie gras. I will also get a touch annoyed if you are a fussy meat eater - if you eat meat, I expect you to eat meat - not to turn your nose up at oxtail, or such like or shriek when a fish still has its head on. I really can't be doing with 'supermarket meat eaters' who don't have a real idea of where their food comes from, how it is processed etc. If you don't like it, then you can have the veggie dish I have prepared for myself. I don't pander. That goes for kids too. I got some filthy looks and parents scurrying their children away a couple of weeks ago I stood with my friend's four year old and told him which of the cute petting animals he had eaten. He was cool with it, as most kids who are raised aware of where their food comes from.
I will always offer to make something to bring with me for supper at someone else's house, and am happy to have 'just the veggies' if someone 'forgets' that I don't eat fish (really, I have a darling friend, we've known each other 18 years or so, and she STILL thinks I eat fish)
I try to avoid animal products where I can - I don't opt for Omega 3 orange juice (or pasta, or margerine or bread), I avoid gelatin in things like candy and yogurt, I skip McDonalds french fries in Canada, question items like refried beans in mexican restaurants, and take a pass on lots of commercially baked items like twinkies. I do have leather shoes, and have fox hunted in the past. I've visited abbatoirs, skinned a deer, removed lead shot from a variety of birds, and sent family pets to become pet food. People make a lot of assumptions as to why I do or don't eat / wear certain things and are quick to cry 'hypocrite' when they spot a pair of cute leather stilletoes on my tootsies. I don't lecture others on their choices, but do ask that they respect mine. It really angers me that people have, in the past, tried to 'trick' me into eating meat by hiding it in a dish they claim is veggie. I just don't get what skin off their nose it is for me to choose not to consume meat and fish :(
You sound like cool cucumber! I once was the cook for a large group that had a very strict Adventist (since brought up here), he was wanting to check everything I had bought for the veggie side, one thing didn't pass as it was too processed (it was a cereal!), so he skipped that. But we had some amazing veggie, and non veggie food all at the table, no tricks, good treats.
I appreciated that he was open about it, and not preachy, just stating what he would and would not eat, not forcing his opinions/ideas on others.
There is good food for all, no matter what personal choices people make, and respecting others should be commonplace.
GadgetFreak
Nov 21, 11, 4:16 pm
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No, I'm not agreeing nor, if you read the thread, have I "finally" agreed. I have not changed what I have said throughout the thread. I am not saying it is overrating. I am saying that it is at least partially the ratio of meat in the diet.
Then explain to me why countries with high level of meat consumption per capita like France, Spain, Germany, Sweden, Italy are way ahead in terms of life expectancy. By the way, did you realize that the US is only 17th in terms of meat consumption per capita? How very surprising...
The Spaniards eat twice as much meat per head and they live 4 years longer. How very unfair isn't?
Since their health care system is much better they would probably live even longer if they ate less meat. There is no evidence as far as I know that more meat is good. None.
ossipago
Nov 21, 11, 6:23 pm
Then explain to me why countries with high level of meat consumption per capita like France, Spain, Germany, Sweden, Italy are way ahead in terms of life expectancy. By the way, did you realize that the US is only 17th in terms of meat consumption per capita? How very surprising...
The Spaniards eat twice as much meat per head and they live 4 years longer. How very unfair isn't?
Ok, which ones, apart from the Adventist one?
I know I shouldn't be doing this, but ... you totally ignored the point that just because meat eating is the status quo doesn't make it inherently more defensible than being vegetarian/vegan. You can't simply say that because the studies showing vegetarian diets are healthier have problems, that means that meat-eating is healthier. That is the same "logic" used by creationists when they say that the lack of transition fossils in the record (a problem in evolutionary theory) means in and of itself that creationism is correct. You fail to advance your end of the argument.
I'll also note that your positive evidence for your position is anecdotal, uncorrected aggregrate statistics. The other side has at least one controlled, longitudinal, peer-reviewed study. Yes, it has some problems - all studies do - but it's clear which one of these is scientifically more convincing.
roberino
Nov 21, 11, 6:28 pm
I know I shouldn't be doing this, but ... you totally ignored the point that just because meat eating is the status quo doesn't make it inherently more defensible than being vegetarian/vegan. You can't simply say that because the studies showing vegetarian diets are healthier have problems, that means that meat-eating is healthier. That is the same "logic" used by creationists when they say that the lack of transition fossils in the record (a problem in evolutionary theory) means in and of itself that creationism is correct. You fail to advance your end of the argument.
I'll also note that your positive evidence for your position is anecdotal, uncorrected aggregrate statistics. The other side has at least one controlled, longitudinal, peer-reviewed study. Yes, it has some problems - all studies do - but it's clear which one of these is scientifically more convincing.
^
jrolland1975
Nov 21, 11, 7:07 pm
You can't simply say that because the studies showing vegetarian diets are healthier have problems, that means that meat-eating is healthier.
I never wrote that and I challenge you to exhibit any of my posts where this would be stated.
you, however, stated that
you are going to have to ignore the significant amount of medical and scientific research that goes against that position.
so we went from "ample research" to "the research has problem". That's a progress. Soon we will get to an agreement that the research is just inconclusive.
Anyway, this discussion is going nowhere. Believe or eat whatever you want. I don't apologize for liking meat.
By the way, equating me to the creationists is low and despicable. I am sure you are, in general, above that kind of low blows.:td:
cblaisd
Nov 21, 11, 7:12 pm
We're going to take a dinner break for this thread and let our food cool down.