Air France Frequence Plus - Air France ? Just remembered why I don't use you.

Flight from Manchester delayed by an hour and a half, so my hours connection to Hong Kong is a non starter, and we will now arrive in Hong Kong Sunday morning, instead of Saturday evening.

I HATE YOU !

Did they give a reason for the delay?

I've only ever missed two connections - by coincidence it was also Air France, both times - but I don't think they're particularly unique in this aspect.

Are you at AMS now? I'm standing in line at gate F03 boarding the KL AMS-HKG flight in a few minutes. We could chat for a few minutes :-)

No, they are taking us to Paris andhave put us on the Cathay flight tomorrow.

It's a reasonable alternative. Delays happen and if a one hour delay throws away your plans, may I suggest that you should try some more padding in your schedule?

It's a reasonable alternative. Delays happen and if a one hour delay throws away your plans, may I suggest that you should try some more padding in your schedule?

It was THIER itinerary, not mine !

It was THIER itinerary, not mine !

But are you not a seasoned frequent flyer? I guess it's because I fly AF a bit, I don't trust them to be on time! I pick itineraries I am comfortable about whenever I can.

No, they are taking us to Paris andhave put us on the Cathay flight tomorrow.

Its actually quite nice that they put you on the Cathay flight, especially as there are probably plenty of other AF/KL options available.

Yes, delays suck...but they can happen. If you accept an itin with a short transfer time, you should keep in mind that you might miss the connection.

I agree and have to point out that I find the OP's reaction a bit over the top. Delays happen with all airlines. The difference is that good airlines deal with them in a flexible way. In the OP's situation this seems to be the case as they booked him on the next available flight with the major competitor.

If you accept an itin with a short transfer time, you should keep in mind that you might miss the connection. I have to say I would not do a one-hour connection through CDG TO a 1x/day longhaul. You can spend one hour at CDG standing in line for security rescreening in the bowels of 2E. FROM a longhaul to a Euro service with multi subsequent frequencies, sure; the other way around, no way.

CX > AF to HKG, isn't it? ;-)

Having booked a fight with a 1h05 connection in CDG (with Terminal change) was heroic. There is another MAN-CDG flight some 2hrs before that would have been much safer to book. You knew that you had a good chance to miss the connection so why be so upset.
AF has been nice to rebook you on CX midday flight rather than their evening flight (I think no AF midday flight on saturday). This is what a decent airline would do, but some do not.
if in J, CX product is far superior to AF. If in Y you will avoid the AF 777 sardine-seating.

Yes, quite looking forward to CX J class, as opposed to the gallic option.
Bags ? We were told last night (2 am this morning) to go and reclaim the from AF at 9am, we tried but after an hour, we were told they have been re-tagged. Unfortunately, Cathay no nothing about it BUT are trying all ends up to make sure our bags join us on the flight.

Have lost a night and half a day in Hong Kong, now looks like straight to work from the airport, having been in the same clothes for 2 days !

Yes, quite looking forward to CX J class, as opposed to the gallic option.
Bags ? We were told last night (2 am this morning) to go and reclaim the from AF at 9am, we tried but after an hour, we were told they have been re-tagged. Unfortunately, Cathay no nothing about it BUT are trying all ends up to make sure our bags join us on the flight.

Have lost a night and half a day in Hong Kong, now looks like straight to work from the airport, having been in the same clothes for 2 days !

CX has a dedicated ground staff at CDG who is very good, so they will make big effort to find your bags. If you ask nicely, CX in CDG will give you an arrival lounge card. Was only reserved for F pax and DM but they have recently extended the access to some others and given your circumstances... But that will not buy you new underwear...
CX J seats are quite narrow at the hips, so it takes a few times to understand how to optimize their usage.

I could have come up with a trillion reasons why not to take AF and I was expecting to find some of them in this post.

But plane is "late" is quite AF-unspecific. They actually happen to be one of the most punctual airlines in Europe I think.

It happens everywhere. Just in the last six days: Emirates Dubai-Paris, almost 2 hours late. Yesterday morning, Swiss Berlin-Zurich, 2 hours late. Yesterday evening, Swiss Zurich-Paris, 30 minutes late. Admittedly it is merely bad karma to have so many delays within a couple of days (I have had 4 delays out of more than 100 flights on LX for the rest of the year) - but it shows that it does happen anywhere.

But you alluded to another good reason to avoid AF: transfering in Paris. Don't do it if you don't have to.

It would be good to know why your flight was delayed but like others, I really don't think AF is any worse than the competition on that. I have had big delays with mostly all airlines - the European ones (BA, LH, AF, KL, LX, etc), the American ones (CO, DL, etc), the Asian ones (TG, CX, KE, etc) and the Oceanian ones (QF, NZ, etc). Unless you have been exceptionally lucky, I'm sure you have had the same experience as me as I know you travel a lot too. The only big difference is in how airlines handle such incidents. My favourite solution is an airline re-arranging your trip from your departure airport rather than from connection point, followed by the airline that re-arranges from connection point but on any airline, followed by the airline which insists on rearranging from connection point AND on its own metal only when this is not convenient. I would say that in your case, AF seems to have fared rather better than I would have feared. As brunos mentioned, a connecting time of barely over 1 hour means that by definition there was a risk of misconnection. Your flight was delayed quite a bit, but even a mere 20 odd minutes delay would have been enough for your to miss your connection to HKG and such delays are plentiful on all airlines. I'm sure that your long haul J with CX will prove an excellent flight and while delays are always really unpleasant, it seems to me that the way AF managed it in your case is heads and shoulders above what most of us have experienced in case of KLM irrops.

...it seems to me that the way AF managed it in your case is heads and shoulders above what most of us have experienced in case of KLM irrops. That much is certainly true. KL: great hub airport, not very accommodating; AF: terrible hub airport, fairly accommodating. IME anyway.

Sure enough, arrived in HKG, no luggage, and no one knows where it is !

So, same clothes for 3 days and 2 nights, and a whopping 800HK dollars (£60GBP) to get clothes and toiletries.

Not a happy chappy, 36 hours to get here, and my business trip is in tatters !

Sure enough, arrived in HKG, no luggage, and no one knows where it is !

So, same clothes for 3 days and 2 nights, and a whopping 800HK dollars (£60GBP) to get clothes and toiletries.

Not a happy chappy, 36 hours to get here, and my business trip is in tatters !

Not pleasant, but most travel insurances cover you quite generously after 6 hours of luggage delay. Airlines are no longer generous in such cases, and clearly CX not any more than its competitors (in case of lost luggage in multi-airline itinerary, it is always the last airline you fly with which handles the file). Some are even worse though - BA would have given you a pre-loaded debit card with £20 on.

Regardless of travel insurance, you are not limited to the sum the airline gives you spontaneously: carriers are responsible for damage caused by delays to baggage unless they can show that they have taken all steps necessary to prevent the damage occuring. It would be perfectly OK to buy necessary clothing and toiletries (within reason and in any event under 1000 special drawing rights = approx USD1500) and claim it back from the airline as damages (make sure that you keep all receipts and, under the Montreal Convention, you must send your claim within 21 days from the date the baggage is returned to you).

So, I have made my (our, my daughter was flying with me) to AF, and they agree, they messed up. 15,000 miles a piece, (rather than the mile we would have got if we had travelled with them), a £360 voucher, and the promise that they will TRY an updgrade my daughter's return leg tomorrow, but of course with no promises.
I have the option to buy another return, using miles, from HKGto CDG in business, BUT of course, she needs to check in for her existing Y return, or the CDG - Manchster leg will of course be cancelled, as a no show. Dilemma is do I wait until tomorrow and see if AF are true to their word and she gets the upgrade, or just book one anyway, and let her have the plreasure of AF "J" class on the return to CDG ?

Sure enough, no one in Hong Kong had any record of any such request, and the station manager wasn't empowered to make an upgrade without Paris' agreement, which of course he didn't have.
AF, you have consistently lied , about the reason for the delay from Manchester, the "we will be leaving in 5 minutes", the luggage being re-tagged onto the Cathay flight, and the actions you said you had taken to make things better.

Au Revoir.

Sad story.

That must have been an unpleasant experience overall, and that stinks. :(

Were you booked in J initially? Was your daughter in Y? Was this an award or a paid itin?

Believing that they will "try" to UG your daughter is a bit naive, IMO. I never buy that kind of stuff. It's just to get you to cool off and hang up.

Is the voucher what you would be owed under EC 261 rules? What was the cause of the delay?

That must have been an unpleasant experience overall, and that stinks. :(

Were you booked in J initially? Was your daughter in Y? Was this an award or a paid itin?

Believing that they will "try" to UG your daughter is a bit naive, IMO. I never buy that kind of stuff. It's just to get you to cool off and hang up.

Is the voucher what you would be owed under EC 261 rules? What was the cause of the delay?

I was booked in J for the round trip.


Daughter was a revenue ticket, part paid with a TCV from a previous cock up, and then upgraded outbound using FB miles.
Return leg for her NOT changeable or upgradeable, but Customer care said that depsite it being so, they would try and get the rules waived.
Original delay was due to the AC going tech, so they replaced it. Delay was compunded by lots of trarmac discussions between the captain and the airfield safety officer before we left Manchester.

To cap it off, they have "credited" my FB account with her "award" flight, and missed off my revenue ticket in J for the return, so no limes going out (got bumped onto Cathay so no miles earned) and now they have given me the benefit of an award ticket back, although it is in my daughter's name, so no miles earned on the return leg either.
Email sent, of course. Shambles, start to finish !

got bumped onto Cathay so no miles earnedWhen you are involuntarily rerouted, you can ask for the original route credit. This has to be a retro-claim, though.

...and the promise that they will TRY an updgrade my daughter's return leg tomorrow, but of course with no promises.

Could have told you that this would not happen as it is not a part of AF policy to upgrade any PAX based on the circumstances you encountered.

I have had a similar experience some time back (Elite+ at the time as well) and was told on the phone, when I kindly asked about the possibility to get an upgrade, that this was not an option at all, and never had been. The agent (very friendly btw) even asked his supervisor who gave the same answer.

I was a bit annoyed, but at the end of the day I got what I paid for and the compensation I was given fair.

Now, if everyone asked for an upgrade (and given one when going through delays etc) I don't think many airlines would stay a float for very long...

Still your experience was not very pleasant :(

I was booked in J for the round trip.


Daughter was a revenue ticket, part paid with a TCV from a previous cock up, and then upgraded outbound using FB miles.
Return leg for her NOT changeable or upgradeable, but Customer care said that despite it being so, they would try and get the rules waived.
Original delay was due to the AC going tech, so they replaced it. Delay was compunded by lots of trarmac discussions between the captain and the airfield safety officer before we left Manchester.

To cap it off, they have "credited" my FB account with her "award" flight, and missed off my revenue ticket in J for the return, so no limes going out (got bumped onto Cathay so no miles earned) and now they have given me the benefit of an award ticket back, although it is in my daughter's name, so no miles earned on the return leg either.
Email sent, of course. Shambles, start to finish !

I understand your frustration but I find your reaction a bit extreme.
You booked a flight with a 1h05 connection in the evening. As a seasoned traveler you know that a delay can happen, especially in the evening when the (European) aircraft is more likely to have accumulated some delay during the day. I would say that you had a very signigicant chance of missing the connection at the time you decided to book the ticket. Apparently AF handled it well by taking you to a hotel and rebooking you to the first flight departing at midday (CX in J) rather than their own evening flight. It must have cost them a lot of money. And they credited both of you with 15,000 miles in lieu of the miles you would have earned had you flown AF. This is a big multiple of what your daughter would have earned on a cheap Y ticket (probably some 10 times more) and more than what you would have earned.
Apparently you got your bags back and they provided the standard compensation for the delayed bags.
Crediting your own miles on the way back usually take a few days from an outstation. And if they messed up (hard to understand why if you flew on your own revenue ticket), it will be easily corrected.

I am not saying that it was a pleasant experience, but I believe that your expectations of more miles and more upgrade are a bit unreasonable.

Thanks for the clarification, tezzer.


You booked a flight with a 1h05 connection in the evening. As a seasoned traveler you know that a delay can happen, especially in the evening when the (European) aircraft is more likely to have accumulated some delay during the day. I would say that you had a 50% chance of missing the connection at the time you decided to book the ticket.
That's probably right. A 1:05 connection in CDG is tight, especially TO a longhaul flight. (From longhaul to intra-EU it gets a bit easier though, but still risky in 1h).


I am not saying that it was a pleasant experience, but I believe that your expectations of more miles and more upgrade are a bit unreasonable.
I agree with the UG part. No UG should be normally be expected in such a case. (Sidenote: I got an UG to WBC on NW because of a mechanical that resulted into an overnight in BOS, missing a connection in AMS resulting into a second overnight. But that's a bit extreme.)

As for the delay, I wonder if any compensation is due in accordance to EC261. Still, not exactly a bad outcome.

I think that all seasoned travelers know that IROPS do happen. It's usually unpleasant, but it happens. Even cars break down, have flat tires, etc. The key is to roll with the punches and in time you learn to seek the best possible outcome (i.e. get there as soon as and safely as possible, while limiting frustrating factors like queues and such). Of course, in time you also learn to avoid potentially bad outcomes by planning enough transfer time, etc.

I don't know why anyone would book a MAN-CDG-Far East flight with a 1hr transfer, particularly in winter with fog, snow etc more likely

There are loads of flights MAN-CDG so instead of a 1hr t/f you can convert it into a 3-3.5 hr t/f. If it's on time you can work in the lounge for an hour or two

eg. I am MAN_CDG-PEK next week. I could have booked a 1hr 25min t/f but if I missed it I would overnight in Paris so I booked the earlier flight. So instead of working an extra couple of hours in UK, I work an extra couple of hours in the CDG lounge - no problem

nickyboy