TalkBoard Elections/11 - Question 10: Post count for Omni/OmniPR

Submitted by a member:

Talkboard defeated a vote on whether to count posts for Omni and OmniPR.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/town-hall-official-talkboard-voting-decisions/1245850-motion-failed-restore-post-count-credit-omni.html

What is your opinion about Omni and OmniPR posts being treated differently than lounge threads?

"As an example, people may post "good morning" in any of the lounge threads and get posting credit for it, yet if they post a detailed response helping someone in Omni, it does not count.

This creates a group of second-class posters that does nothing to foster the sense of community within FT.*

There might almost be 6 votes for counting posts in OMNI-fluff (the nickname for OMNI excluding OMNI P/R).

I'm persuadable on this issue, but I am pretty sure there aren't going to be 6 votes for counting posts in OMNI P/R. A casual look at OMNI P/R does not reveal a wealth of valuable information. However some would make the same argument regarding the new Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate forum.

If somebody can find 5 votes for anything on this issue, I will likely provide the 6th vote. I'd prefer to be the 7th vote because I have trouble taking the post count issue as seriously as some members do. At some point post count becomes a sign of obsession rather than achievement. :D

Yes I think OMNI should count towards post counts.

As you need to meet a minimum requirement to be able to view and post to those forums, as it shows to me that you are dedicated to the FT community.

Why do people get so hung up over how many posts someone has made?

Who's not to say that people that don't post in OMNI aren't getting their post count up by one line responses to other topics anyway.

Absofreakinglutely OMNI and PR posts should count.

Why is OMNI ghettoized and discriminated against? It make ZERO sense. Penalty Box and Lounge threads count but not OMNI.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

It's stupid and it needs to stop.

Every post should count no matter where it is posted.

Absofreakinglutely OMNI and PR posts should count.

C'mon, koko, don't sugar coat it. Tell us what you REALLY think. :D

Serioiusly, I regard koko as one of the best TalkBoard members ever, willing to work long and hard and, in the end, compromise just enough. Still, if there were a position of Immoderator, he'd be a top candidate. ;) Often wrong, never in doubt, and thoroughly lovable. I hope I win just so I can serve with him.

I think post counts in OMNI and OMNI P/R should count, in part because OMNI fluff especially is similar to many of the lounge threads.

As a compromise, I believe someone currently on TalkBoard suggested reorganizing OMNI by adding at least one additional sub-forum, and counting posts in some of the subforums, but not all. I can't find the post, but I believe the suggestion was something like, "OMNI-fluff-posts count, OMNI Games (new subforum)--posts don't count, OMNI P/R--posts count (or not).

While I'd favor posts counting in all of OMNI, I think the above would be a compromise that could address at least some of the issues and some of the concerns those that are against counting OMNI posts have.

As a rather Newbie myself, I've always wondered why post counts don't count on Omni.. I understand that post counts reflect discussions on miles and points.. It however doesn't make sense to not count the posts on Omni..

If not added to regular post counts, would a Omni/PR classified post count seperate from the regular post count not work? Could FT, then classify members in a seperate naming system for Omni/PR in addition to the leaving the regular system untouched?.. If not adopting posts on the regular post count?..

In considering this divisive issue, the TalkBoard should revisit the debate by considering the major viewpoints of post count. This seems a big enough issue that, perhaps a binding questionnaire referendum be put out to the FlyerTalk Members, or perhaps consultation with a specially selected Focus Group, reporting to the TalkBoard with the feedback.

Post Counts are big business here on FlyerTalk.. Many members spend countless hours, and the statistics should reflect the effort and time members put in. I appreciate the moderators imposing a 20 post per day glass ceiling (not official, but no FT member usually has over average 20 posts per day for very long).. and the independence autonomy of the moderators should continue so that MRs aren't being performed on post counts to ensure quality posts.. But not counting Omni/PR for those participating, is relegating the section like it doesn't belong on FlyerTalk..

I'm open to suggestions how we can reward FlyerTalk Members with recognition in the Omni/PR.. What that looks like and if any change is implemented, depends on the feedback we receive from Membership surveys, focus groups and discussions..

As a rather Newbie myself, I've always wondered why post counts don't count on Omni.. I understand that post counts reflect discussions on miles and points.. It however doesn't make sense to not count the posts on Omni..

If not added to regular post counts, would a Omni/PR classified post count seperate from the regular post count not work? Could FT, then classify members in a seperate naming system for Omni/PR in addition to the leaving the regular system untouched?.. If not adopting posts on the regular post count?..

In considering this divisive issue, the TalkBoard should revisit the debate by considering the major viewpoints of post count. This seems a big enough issue that, perhaps a binding questionnaire referendum be put out to the FlyerTalk Members, or perhaps consultation with a specially selected Focus Group, reporting to the TalkBoard with the feedback.

Post Counts are big business here on FlyerTalk.. Many members spend countless hours, and the statistics should reflect the effort and time members put in. I appreciate the moderators imposing a 20 post per day glass ceiling (not official, but no FT member usually has over average 20 posts per day for very long).. and the independence autonomy of the moderators should continue so that MRs aren't being performed on post counts to ensure quality posts.. But not counting Omni/PR for those participating, is relegating the section like it doesn't belong on FlyerTalk..

I'm open to suggestions how we can reward FlyerTalk Members with recognition in the Omni/PR.. What that looks like and if any change is implemented, depends on the feedback we receive from Membership surveys, focus groups and discussions..



I didn't even relise realize they didn't count! :eek: No wonder why I'm not at 2,000 posts.... :D


But seriously, they should count, lounge threads count, and it's the same thing!

I do not think that any form of Omni posts should count toward the main post count. But I think that Ancien Maestro is onto something with this separate post count. Since the discussion in Omni is not related to miles and points etc, why not make a separate count.

Delta747

As you can see in the link above, I was one of the ones who voted "yes" on the measure in question.

If it were to come up again, I would vote "yes" again.

Also, kipper is correct about the compromise idea wherein OMNI games (i.e. counting to 100,000, etc.) were sequestered in a separate forum where posts don't count. I actually favor that idea the best and was sad that it didn't get the light of day.

I do not think that any form of Omni posts should count toward the main post count. But I think that Ancien Maestro is onto something with this separate post count. Since the discussion in Omni is not related to miles and points etc, why not make a separate count.

Delta747



But if we are only counting mile and points posts, should TravelBuzz count? @:-) ;)

But if we are only counting mile and points posts, should TravelBuzz count? @:-) ;)
When I added the etc. after miles and points, I meant anything that is related to miles, points, dining, and travel. I should have been more clear in my answer to the question. :D

Delta747

As you can see in the link above, I was one of the ones who voted "yes" on the measure in question.

If it were to come up again, I would vote "yes" again.

Also, kipper is correct about the compromise idea wherein OMNI games (i.e. counting to 100,000, etc.) were sequestered in a separate forum where posts don't count. I actually favor that idea the best and was sad that it didn't get the light of day.

I think we are agree with you. If they will ever to reinstates the post count again. If we can give another chance to start the post count once again. If they behave well. Follow the rules and not try to padding the post count.

I feel that posts in OMNI should not count. FlyerTalk is a place to talk about points, miles, etc. but the posts in OMNI are hardly relative to miles, statuses, and airline. OMNI is a place to talk topics not related to FlyerTalk, for the most part, and if they do involve FlyerTalk, post it in GeneralBuzz or better yet, the specific forum for it's topic.

I feel that posts in OMNI should not count. FlyerTalk is a place to talk about points, miles, etc. but the posts in OMNI are hardly relative to miles, statuses, and airline. OMNI is a place to talk topics not related to FlyerTalk, for the most part, and if they do involve FlyerTalk, post it in GeneralBuzz or better yet, the specific forum for it's topic.

FlyerTalk is what the posters make of it. It's a community. Lounge posts are no more valuable than a post made in one of the OMNIs.

I've fought this battle long and hard from the outside. I'm weary of it. All I'll say at this point is that there's no good reason I can see why every single post made on FlyerTalk shouldn't count in a "post count" if we're going to keep such a thing. Quite frankly, I'd be just as happy eliminating post counts or permanently setting mine to a (-1).

I see I'm in the minority here, but I don't think posts should count.

What I don't get is many of the people who support them counting say "what does post count really matter that you have to not allow them to count." Well, if post count doesn't matter, then why do you care whether or not it counts?

Leaving lounge threads on the side for a moment, I believe that allowing OMNI posts to count belittles the integrity of a FT post count. The truth is, it relates to a previously discussed question: What's more important - Information or Community? If FT is simply a community, where we happen to enjoy talking about miles and points, but we're simply a community of people conversing, then by all means, allow the posts to count AND remove the restriction of 180/180. If, however, FT is about the information, and the community naturally flows from there, then OMNI is a great place for the community to "chill," but it's not really the focus of FT, and therefore posts shouldn't count, as they have nothing to do with the purpose of FT - miles and points (and related travel)

The lounge threads are another beast, and something that needs further examination. But just because they exist shouldn't give carte blanche authority to allow post counts from OMNI.

Omni posts should count, they are the same as regular posts. No need to differentiate post from post.

I see I'm in the minority here, but I don't think posts should count.

What I don't get is many of the people who support them counting say "what does post count really matter that you have to not allow them to count." Well, if post count doesn't matter, then why do you care whether or not it counts?

Leaving lounge threads on the side for a moment, I believe that allowing OMNI posts to count belittles the integrity of a FT post count. The truth is, it relates to a previously discussed question: What's more important - Information or Community? If FT is simply a community, where we happen to enjoy talking about miles and points, but we're simply a community of people conversing, then by all means, allow the posts to count AND remove the restriction of 180/180. If, however, FT is about the information, and the community naturally flows from there, then OMNI is a great place for the community to "chill," but it's not really the focus of FT, and therefore posts shouldn't count, as they have nothing to do with the purpose of FT - miles and points (and related travel)

The lounge threads are another beast, and something that needs further examination. But just because they exist shouldn't give carte blanche authority to allow post counts from OMNI.

I don't mean to have the debate here, but to be clear it's not just Lounge threads, those are just the most obvious example. Ladies comparing shopping bargains on shoes in Women Travel, whllinder giving me running techniques suggestions in Health and Fitness, even this post I am typing now...they all count. And they all have nothing to do with miles, points or travel.

It's just an arbitrary line that was drawn. It's stupid.

I don't think OMNI posts should count towards a member's total. That said, I'm not sure why the lounge posts count either. As a TalkBoard member, I would do my best to keep OMNI posts from counting and to work towards keeping the lounge posts from counting.

My fundamental thought is this - if a post does nothing towards furthering the aim of FT, it shouldn't count. "Good morning" or "how are you?" are great for building and maintaining community, but don't advance the mission of FT. At it's heart, FT is about sharing travel information/andecdotes/trip reviews/etc. I'd prefer to see the post counts reflect each member's contribution toward that objective.

As for creating "a group of second-class posters", I don't think post count is an accurate way to assess one's overall contribution to FT. I've seen plenty of newbies come to FT and offer a great suggestion or piece of advice in their post #1. I've also seen plenty of members who have very high post counts that I'm sure benefitted from the time when OMNI posts counted toward their total. I prefer to look at the body of work presented by each member when assessing his/her contribution to the site. Post count is contaminated now due to the fact that we've been playing under different rules over the years.

I don't mean to have the debate here, but to be clear it's not just Lounge threads, those are just the most obvious example. Ladies comparing shopping bargains on shoes in Women Travel, whllinder giving me running techniques suggestions in Health and Fitness, even this post I am typing now...they all count. And they all have nothing to do with miles, points or travel.

It's just an arbitrary line that was drawn. It's stupid.

I think it's a good idea to have the debate here, so voters know where and why we stand on this.

You bring up valid points. It's not perfect. But the essence of, for example, the Women Travel forum is related to travel, and that's not the case with OMNI, which is why the line was drawn there.

I don't think OMNI posts should count towards a member's total. That said, I'm not sure why the lounge posts count either. As a TalkBoard member, I would do my best to keep OMNI posts from counting and to work towards keeping the lounge posts from counting.

My fundamental thought is this - if a post does nothing towards furthering the aim of FT, it shouldn't count. "Good morning" or "how are you?" are great for building and maintaining community, but don't advance the mission of FT. At it's heart, FT is about sharing travel information/andecdotes/trip reviews/etc. I'd prefer to see the post counts reflect each member's contribution toward that objective.

As for creating "a group of second-class posters", I don't think post count is an accurate way to assess one's overall contribution to FT. I've seen plenty of newbies come to FT and offer a great suggestion or piece of advice in their post #1. I've also seen plenty of members who have very high post counts that I'm sure benefitted from the time when OMNI posts counted toward their total. I prefer to look at the body of work presented by each member when assessing his/her contribution to the site. Post count is contaminated now due to the fact that we've been playing under different rules over the years.

Regarding lounge threads, it's much harder to say those don't count than with a forum, as the post count can be turned on or off for a forum, but not a thread within a forum. (Regarding a lounge thread within a specific program forum, that is)

I don't think OMNI posts should count towards a member's total. That said, I'm not sure why the lounge posts count either. As a TalkBoard member, I would do my best to keep OMNI posts from counting and to work towards keeping the lounge posts from counting.

My fundamental thought is this - if a post does nothing towards furthering the aim of FT, it shouldn't count. "Good morning" or "how are you?" are great for building and maintaining community, but don't advance the mission of FT. At it's heart, FT is about sharing travel information/andecdotes/trip reviews/etc. I'd prefer to see the post counts reflect each member's contribution toward that objective.

As for creating "a group of second-class posters", I don't think post count is an accurate way to assess one's overall contribution to FT. I've seen plenty of newbies come to FT and offer a great suggestion or piece of advice in their post #1. I've also seen plenty of members who have very high post counts that I'm sure benefitted from the time when OMNI posts counted toward their total. I prefer to look at the body of work presented by each member when assessing his/her contribution to the site. Post count is contaminated now due to the fact that we've been playing under different rules over the years.

Sorry, but I think you and the others that promote this line of thought simply miss the boat. While you think "Good morning" doesn't further the "aim" of FT, what if the poster looks forward to coming on and saying Good Morning to people in a lounge thread (or to see others do the same), but THEN goes to an airline or hotel thread and answers a question or posts a review or posts some advice. Maybe without that "Good Morning" that person doesn't come to FT at all.

I feel the same way about those that come and post in OMNI or OMNI/PR and then head over to the airline/hotel forums and contribute. It's possible that the motivation to come into FT that morning was a juicy thread on PR, but the advice they gave on their second or third board visited that morning was invaluable to the poster.

I think it's a terrible thing to say one post is less valuable than others. I'm happy that everyone is here and if we're going to maintain such a thing a post counts (which I'm not convinced is important or necessary), then every board, every post should count.

Why is this being resurrected? There are PAGES of debate on this issue in the aforementioned thread which includes my opinion on it. Personally I had hoped it was dead with the vote being passed. I voted no, I will vote no when elected if it comes up again.

Why is this being resurrected? There are PAGES of debate on this issue in the aforementioned thread which includes my opinion on it. Personally I had hoped it was dead with the vote being passed. I voted no, I will vote no when elected if it comes up again.

Because there are people like me who are specifically running for TB in order to (among other things) overturn this stupid, stupid, stupid decision and treat all posts equally. @:-) ^

Why is this being resurrected? There are PAGES of debate on this issue in the aforementioned thread which includes my opinion on it. Personally I had hoped it was dead with the vote being passed. I voted no, I will vote no when elected if it comes up again.

I'm guessing it is being discussed in part because some in the community feel strongly that they should count or shouldn't count, and want to know our opinions on this before deciding who should receive their vote, with the hopes of bringing up the issue again during the next TalkBoard year, if they want posts to count.

Because there are people like me who are specifically running for TB in order to (among other things) overturn this stupid, stupid, stupid decision and treat all posts equally. @:-) ^

Good for you. If you make the motion, I'll be your second (or vice-versa). So now you know how I feel about it, if you didn't know before.

Sorry, but I think you and the others that promote this line of thought simply miss the boat. While you think "Good morning" doesn't further the "aim" of FT, what if the poster looks forward to coming on and saying Good Morning to people in a lounge thread (or to see others do the same), but THEN goes to an airline or hotel thread and answers a question or posts a review or posts some advice. Maybe without that "Good Morning" that person doesn't come to FT at all.

I feel the same way about those that come and post in OMNI or OMNI/PR and then head over to the airline/hotel forums and contribute. It's possible that the motivation to come into FT that morning was a juicy thread on PR, but the advice they gave on their second or third board visited that morning was invaluable to the poster.

I think it's a terrible thing to say one post is less valuable than others. I'm happy that everyone is here and if we're going to maintain such a thing a post counts (which I'm not convinced is important or necessary), then every board, every post should count.

I disagree on two counts. Number one, I highly doubt that FT would see a drop in members/posters because their "Good morning" post no longer counts. On the flip side, I highly doubt FT would see an influx of new active members specifically related to a decision allowing OMNI posts to count.

Furthermore, perhaps I'm speaking for others, but I don't think people against allowing OMNI post counts (such as myself) view those posts as unimportant. They're simply not connected to the crux of FT.

Why is this being resurrected? There are PAGES of debate on this issue in the aforementioned thread which includes my opinion on it. Personally I had hoped it was dead with the vote being passed. I voted no, I will vote no when elected if it comes up again.

(Bolding mine)

I like the confidence!

Why is this being resurrected? There are PAGES of debate on this issue in the aforementioned thread which includes my opinion on it. Personally I had hoped it was dead with the vote being passed. I voted no, I will vote no when elected if it comes up again.

I don't consider this issue settled unless 2/3 of the TalkBoard votes affirmatively for something, and that would include the status quo if that's the TB's preference.

I floated an idea or two inside TB after the last vote, but there did not appear to be anything close to 6 votes for anything.

This lack of 6 votes for any resolution was exactly the situation the TalkBoard faced on how to count abstentions. We finally put that one to bed a few months ago, so perhaps there is hope for the continuing issue of counting posts.

And, as I said, if there are 5 votes for any resolution I will provide the sixth vote. We need to reach a conclusion, whatever it may be.

Good for you. If you make the motion, I'll be your second (or vice-versa). So now you know how I feel about it, if you didn't know before.

Hey, I can't get in on this? :D Yes, I think OMNI posts should count.

If a flat out all OMNI posts count won't pass, then the idea to split OMNI that I referenced earlier could be a viable compromise, but I'd rather that all OMNI posts count.

I don't consider this issue settled unless 2/3 of the TalkBoard votes affirmatively for something, and that would include the status quo if that's the TB's preference.

I floated an idea or two inside TB after the last vote, but there did not appear to be anything close to 6 votes for anything.

This lack of 6 votes for any resolution was exactly the situation the TalkBoard faced on how to count abstentions. We finally put that one to bed a few months ago, so perhaps there is hope for the continuing issue of counting posts.

And, as I said, if there are 5 votes for any resolution I will provide the sixth vote. We need to reach a conclusion, whatever it may be.

Can you please explain what you mean? Although it's been discussed numerous times, I'm still not quite sure what the rule was and what it is (regarding abstentions). Proposals used to need 6 "yes" votes, or now they need 6 "yes" votes?

Hey, I can't get in on this? :D Yes, I think OMNI posts should count.

If a flat out all OMNI posts count won't pass, then the idea to split OMNI that I referenced earlier could be a viable compromise, but I'd rather that all OMNI posts count.

What type of split?

It's kind of a silly idea to differentiate lounge posts from non miles/points posts to FFP related posts. All posts should count towards post count.

What type of split?

As a compromise, I believe someone currently on TalkBoard suggested reorganizing OMNI by adding at least one additional sub-forum, and counting posts in some of the subforums, but not all. I can't find the post, but I believe the suggestion was something like, "OMNI-fluff-posts count, OMNI Games (new subforum)--posts don't count, OMNI P/R--posts count (or not).

Can you please explain what you mean? Although it's been discussed numerous times, I'm still not quite sure what the rule was and what it is (regarding abstentions). Proposals used to need 6 "yes" votes, or now they need 6 "yes" votes?

Under the old rules 5 yes + 2 no + 2 abstain = 5/9 = fail. Abstains are effectively the same as no.

Under the new rules 5 yes + 2 no + 2 abstain = 5/7 = pass.

The 5+2+2 situation is, practically speaking, the only situation in which there is a different result. However the new rule means that Abstain is no longer usable as a "soft No". I believe that the result will be fewer abstentions, and more Yes's and No's. This improves accountability of the TalkBoard members.

In addition, the new rules allow a TB member to select Abstain without affecting the outcome of the vote either way. It's now a pure abstention, which pleases my sense of linguistic accuracy.

Under the old rules 5 yes + 2 no + 2 abstain = 5/9 = fail. Abstains are effectively the same as no.

Under the new rules 5 yes + 2 no + 2 abstain = 5/7 = pass.

The 5+2+2 situation is, practically speaking, the only situation in which there is a different result. However the new rule means that Abstain is no longer usable as a "soft No". I believe that the result will be fewer abstentions, and more Yes's and No's. This improves accountability of the TalkBoard members.

In addition, the new rules allow a TB member to select Abstain without affecting the outcome of the vote either way. It's now a pure abstention, which pleases my sense of linguistic accuracy.

Under the new rules, why can't a proposal pass 4 yes + 2 no +3 abstain? Must a majority of TB actually vote on the issue?

Under the new rules, why can't a proposal pass 4 yes + 2 no +3 abstain? Must a majority of TB actually vote on the issue?

Yes. This was set up to ensure that any changes to FlyerTalk actually represented the views of at least a majority of members. Any change that doesn't engender the support of at least a majority of current TalkBoard members may not represent the best way forward for the community.

Under the new rules, why can't a proposal pass 4 yes + 2 no +3 abstain? Must a majority of TB actually vote on the issue?

"Yes" votes from >=50% of the sitting TalkBoard are now required in order to win approval. That was another change specifically to ensure that proposals have solid support before they can be approved. Or you could be cynical and say that I bought a vote or two from the super-majority advocates by adding that provision. Just kidding: I added that part to close what I considered to be a loophole in the procedures.

"Yes" votes from >=50% of the sitting TalkBoard are now required in order to win approval. That was another change specifically to ensure that proposals have solid support before they can be approved. Or you could be cynical and say that I bought a vote or two from the super-majority advocates by adding that provision. Just kidding: I added that part to close what I considered to be a loophole in the procedures.

Why can't a simple majority (5 yes) win now?

Why can't a simple majority (5 yes) win now?

That would never have passed. ;)

That would never have passed. ;)

We'll see :p

Since we were just talking about the lounge threads, I wouldn't mind putting those in that category of not earning a post. Some of you have made the point that someone can get a post for just saying good morning. On the other hand, if I were to post some substantive thing in OMNI about the GOP candidates running for president I wouldn't get a post. So since neither are about flying, dining, points, rental cars etc. in my opinion, they should not receive a post.

Detla747

Since we were just talking about the lounge threads, I wouldn't mind putting those in that category of not earning a post. Some of you have made the point that someone can get a post for just saying good morning. On the other hand, if I were to post some substantive thing in OMNI about the GOP candidates running for president I wouldn't get a post. So since neither are about flying, dining, points, rental cars etc. in my opinion, they should not receive a post.

Detla747



But is there a way to categorize Lounge threads from other threads in the same forum?

But is there a way to categorize Lounge threads from other threads in the same forum?

Are you talking about categorizing for post counting? If so, I do not know if there is a way. :confused:

Delta747

Are you talking about categorizing for post counting? If so, I do not know if there is a way. :confused:

Delta747

There is not a way to do this.

The only way would be to sequester lounge threads in their own separate forum, which, of course, would run counter to the entire premise that the lounge threads are based on (providing a place for community-building and discussion for those who have [or want to have] relationships with other members of that forum).

Are you talking about categorizing for post counting? If so, I do not know if there is a way. :confused:

Delta747

There is not a way to do this.

The only way would be to sequester lounge threads in their own separate forum, which, of course, would run counter to the entire premise that the lounge threads are based on (providing a place for community-building and discussion for those who have [or want to have] relationships with other members of that forum).

I agree that this is not the way to go about this. I was just trying to answer dinoscool3

I agree that this is not the way to go about this. I was just trying to answer dinoscool3



You were talking about "putting Lounge threads in the category of not earning posts", then you yourself admit there's no way of doing this.....

Why can't a simple majority (5 yes) win now?

Email that question to Carol if you want to know where we stand. I would oppose that. If you can't get 6 votes, you are doing something wrong. Furthermore, a majority rule would promote instability, with decisions potentially reversed every year as the TalkBoard membership changes.

Yes we sometimes have issues that hang for years, but once we put them to bed they generally stay settled for a long time. That's a much better way to run things, IMHO.

I agree that this is not the way to go about this. I was just trying to answer dinoscool3



You were talking about "putting Lounge threads in the category of not earning posts", then you yourself admit there's no way of doing this.....

I am saying I do not think there is a way, with the current setup, to have the lounge threads not count towards the post count from an computer standpoint. I would just say we create a lounge forum separate from the regular forums and separate from OMNI and not count posts in this thread. Only if we cannon make it so the posts do not count in the current setup with the lounge threads inside specific airline forums.

Does this help? I am trying my best to clear this up. :). I could just be confusing everybody more.

Delta747

Chiming in a bit late but here's my hockey pucks........

Omni posts should count if posts in "lounge thread" counts

but......

Why do posts in lounge threads count? is it simply because they are established in a forums whose posts do count?

Imho, lounge threads don't belong in "post counting forums" as to me, it is simply a way of post padding and (again, imho) do not serve a constructive purpose in their respective threads.

Poster 1: Good morning :)
Poster 2: Nope, it;s good evening here ;)
Poster 3: Dog
Poster 4: Kitty
and etc

What purpose does it serve? It's not beneficial to the forum at all. If one wants to have silly/off base/fluff conversations, go to Omni or create a lounge forum (perhaps in Omni called Omni/Lounge) and move all the existing lounge threads there. If that was done, imho, you would see the amount of posts in the lounge threads drop :)

So with all my rambling, the way it is now under the current set up with lounge thread posts counting, then Omni posts should count but I personally think that lounge threads should not count and if that can't be done in an existing forum, then move all the lounge threads to a forum where the posts don't count.

Poster 1: Good morning :)
Poster 2: Nope, it;s good evening here ;)
Poster 3: Dog
Poster 4: Kitty
and etc

I really, honestly have no clue where this perception that lounge threads consist of nothing but unconstructive, worthless posts with nothing but a "good m/a/e."

None of the three lounge threads I regularly participate in are anything remotely like that.

Many good friendships have been forged and strengthened by posts in the lounge threads.

I personally think that lounge threads should not count and if that can't be done in an existing forum, then move all the lounge threads to a forum where the posts don't count.

I apologize, but I vehemently disagree with this proposed solution. The lounge threads have become as much a part of the FlyerTalk culture as anything else. Sequestering them away in a remote forum would completely obfuscate their entire raison d'être.

If you still believe that lounge threads add no value, I invite you to visit the following lounges:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/alaska-airlines-mileage-plan/794919-alaska-airlines-lounge-thread-everybody-welcome.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/481066-delta-forum-lounge-thread-everybody-welcome.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileage-plus-consolidated/1200295-penalty-box.html

I am sure other lounges are similarly valuable, but these are the three that I have (for better or for worse) become familiar with.

Email that question to Carol if you want to know where we stand. I would oppose that. If you can't get 6 votes, you are doing something wrong. Furthermore, a majority rule would promote instability, with decisions potentially reversed every year as the TalkBoard membership changes.

Yes we sometimes have issues that hang for years, but once we put them to bed they generally stay settled for a long time. That's a much better way to run things, IMHO.

I misspoke before, but I don't see why 5-4 in favor doesn't win. I can understand saying 4-1 shouldn't win, as there should be an absolute majority voting in favor. But 5-4 is both a simple AND an absolute majority. That would be something I would discuss with Carol, but also something I would propose changing.

Since we were just talking about the lounge threads, I wouldn't mind putting those in that category of not earning a post. Some of you have made the point that someone can get a post for just saying good morning. On the other hand, if I were to post some substantive thing in OMNI about the GOP candidates running for president I wouldn't get a post. So since neither are about flying, dining, points, rental cars etc. in my opinion, they should not receive a post.

Detla747

Chiming in a bit late but here's my hockey pucks........

Omni posts should count if posts in "lounge thread" counts

but......

Why do posts in lounge threads count? is it simply because they are established in a forums whose posts do count?

Imho, lounge threads don't belong in "post counting forums" as to me, it is simply a way of post padding and (again, imho) do not serve a constructive purpose in their respective threads.

Poster 1: Good morning :)
Poster 2: Nope, it;s good evening here ;)
Poster 3: Dog
Poster 4: Kitty
and etc

What purpose does it serve? It's not beneficial to the forum at all. If one wants to have silly/off base/fluff conversations, go to Omni or create a lounge forum (perhaps in Omni called Omni/Lounge) and move all the existing lounge threads there. If that was done, imho, you would see the amount of posts in the lounge threads drop :)

So with all my rambling, the way it is now under the current set up with lounge thread posts counting, then Omni posts should count but I personally think that lounge threads should not count and if that can't be done in an existing forum, then move all the lounge threads to a forum where the posts don't count.

I really, honestly have no clue where this perception that lounge threads consist of nothing but unconstructive, worthless posts with nothing but a "good m/a/e."

None of the three lounge threads I regularly participate in are anything remotely like that.

Many good friendships have been forged and strengthened by posts in the lounge threads.



I apologize, but I vehemently disagree with this proposed solution. The lounge threads have become as much a part of the FlyerTalk culture as anything else. Sequestering them away in a remote forum would completely obfuscate their entire raison d'être.

If you still believe that lounge threads add no value, I invite you to visit the following lounges:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/alaska-airlines-mileage-plan/794919-alaska-airlines-lounge-thread-everybody-welcome.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/481066-delta-forum-lounge-thread-everybody-welcome.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileage-plus-consolidated/1200295-penalty-box.html

I am sure other lounges are similarly valuable, but these are the three that I have (for better or for worse) become familiar with.

I agree with goalie on this one. Under the current system, there's no way of not counting posts within the lounge threads.
Yes, they're nice. But I think it comes back to the purpose of FT. Why is FT here? To simply establish a community that happens to have a common theme? If so, keep the lounge threads, allow OMNI posts, and remove the access restrictions! But if it's about miles and points, then the lounge threads, while nice and friendly, are not intrinsic to FT. So discount OMNI posts, and look for ways to address lounge threads.
If people really care about community, then by all means, keep posting in the lounge threads that may be moved somewhere else. Why would removing posts counts from them make people stop posting and conversing with others in them? It would seem then that they're posting for the post count and not to be part of the community if that was the case...

I am saying I do not think there is a way, with the current setup, to have the lounge threads not count towards the post count from an computer standpoint. I would just say we create a lounge forum separate from the regular forums and separate from OMNI and not count posts in this thread. Only if we cannon make it so the posts do not count in the current setup with the lounge threads inside specific airline forums.

Does this help? I am trying my best to clear this up. :). I could just be confusing everybody more.

Delta747




There's a problem with making a separate lounge forum, the lounges will be emptier. I don't think half of the people that use The Penelty Box on the UA forum, for example, would use it if their was a Lounge Forum. Besides, isn't that practically Omni?

We need less segregation of forums, not more. The last thing we need is to have forums or even threads judged on their "worthiness" of being post-counted. Just count all posts (like the term "post count" implies) and call it a day.

But is there a way to categorize Lounge threads from other threads in the same forum?
No, there isn't.
There is not a way to do this.

The only way would be to sequester lounge threads in their own separate forum, which, of course, would run counter to the entire premise that the lounge threads are based on (providing a place for community-building and discussion for those who have [or want to have] relationships with other members of that forum).
If it was decided that lounge posts shouldn't count, and the lounge threads should be moved to their own forum, my suggestion with the lounge threads was to leave a sticky redirect at the top of each forum that had a lounge thread. This redirect would lead directly to that lounge thread in the lounge forum.
I agree with goalie on this one. Under the current system, there's no way of not counting posts within the lounge threads.
Yes, they're nice. But I think it comes back to the purpose of FT. Why is FT here? To simply establish a community that happens to have a common theme? If so, keep the lounge threads, allow OMNI posts, and remove the access restrictions! But if it's about miles and points, then the lounge threads, while nice and friendly, are not intrinsic to FT. So discount OMNI posts, and look for ways to address lounge threads.
If people really care about community, then by all means, keep posting in the lounge threads that may be moved somewhere else. Why would removing posts counts from them make people stop posting and conversing with others in them? It would seem then that they're posting for the post count and not to be part of the community if that was the case...
OMNI and Coupon Connection are restricted access for a few reasons. CC in part because it involves trading, people want to know that their trading partner is honest and they aren't going to get stiffed on the trade.

OMNI is restricted in part because of trolls who joined simply to post in OMNI, and had no desire to contribute to the points and miles discussions, and as such added nothing to the community.

If OMNI was again opened to the public, we'd have more trolls, which means the mods spend more time deleting posts/masking OMNI from posters, and at least initially, we'd have members requesting that their posts/threads on OMNI be deleted. As it is now, OMNI-light is a safe place where people can obtain knowledge, advice, and suggestions from a wide range of demographics and experience levels. Open it to the public, and you lose the safe place feeling.
There's a problem with making a separate lounge forum, the lounges will be emptier. I don't think half of the people that use The Penelty Box on the UA forum, for example, would use it if their was a Lounge Forum. Besides, isn't that practically Omni?
Do you think that with a sticky redirect link, usage would still drop off by that much?

I want OMNI posts to count, and right now, see a double standard in what counts and what doesn't as far as posts. To me, that needs to be corrected somehow. My preference is to count everything, OMNI included. That means lounge threads stay where they are and count, OMNI posts count, etc.

I believe that if TalkBoard votes to allow OMNI posts to count again, this issue will probably remain settled for a while.

The thing everyone should keep in mind is that the Lounge threads today are exactly what OMNI was in 1999. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16844484-post213.html) There is NO difference....except during a FT redesign the OMNI threads were put in an OMNI forum....sort of like if a redesign happened today and suddenly all of the Lounge threads were plucked from where they now reside and were collected in a Lounge forum.

And yet OMNI threads are now treated differently than Lounge threads.

It's stupid, folks. It's inconsistent and illogical and stupid.

They all build community. They should all count.

The thing everyone should keep in mind is that the Lounge threads today are exactly what OMNI was in 1999. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16844484-post213.html) There is NO difference....except during a FT redesign the OMNI threads were put in an OMNI forum....sort of like if a redesign happened today and suddenly all of the Lounge threads were plucked from where they now reside and were collected in a Lounge forum.

And yet OMNI threads are now treated differently than Lounge threads.

It's stupid, folks. It's inconsistent and illogical and stupid.

They all build community. They should all count.

The other thing people should remember is that OMNI posts did count....until Randy up and decided one day (more accurately, in the middle of the night) that they wouldn't count.

The obscenely high post counts that many people have around FT and the Evangelist titles built under many people's names come, in many cases, from OMNI posts. Or for other people, from posts in those contest threads that Randy had before he left for MP.

I have always been of the opinion that if we're not going to count OMNI posts, then this should be applied retroactively. NO posts EVER from OMNI should count then.

Of course, my first preference is to count everything and be done with it.

I don't plan on making my TB term, should I be elected, about OMNI post counts. I do feel that we need to address this early in the term, though, and then quickly move on.

I just thought of another argument in favor of counting everything. I once floated a suggestion that posts not be counted in Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate, but that they be counted in Practical Travel Safety Issues. This would provide members who care about post count an incentive to mispost policy debate topics in the Practical Issues forum. The moderators already have their hands full keeping policy debate where it belongs.

The same holds true of OMNI P/R vs OMNI fluff. Counting one but not the other would add to the moderators' workload, and for what? Increased accuracy in a measure that hardly matters to anyone? Not worth it.

I am now leaning toward just counting everything. This has been a great discussion. Let's keep it going.

Do you think that with a sticky redirect link, usage would still drop off by that much?



It wouldn't drop by that much, but it would still drop off.

Sorry, but I think you and the others that promote this line of thought simply miss the boat. While you think "Good morning" doesn't further the "aim" of FT, what if the poster looks forward to coming on and saying Good Morning to people in a lounge thread (or to see others do the same), but THEN goes to an airline or hotel thread and answers a question or posts a review or posts some advice. Maybe without that "Good Morning" that person doesn't come to FT at all.

I feel the same way about those that come and post in OMNI or OMNI/PR and then head over to the airline/hotel forums and contribute. It's possible that the motivation to come into FT that morning was a juicy thread on PR, but the advice they gave on their second or third board visited that morning was invaluable to the poster.

I think it's a terrible thing to say one post is less valuable than others. I'm happy that everyone is here and if we're going to maintain such a thing a post counts (which I'm not convinced is important or necessary), then every board, every post should count.

If that's the case, then I think you and anyone who thinks that way is "missing the boat", as you say, about the purpose of FT. I struggle to believe that someone needs a "good morning" to come to FT.

That said, I'd be in favor of dropping post counts altogether. The importance that some members place on this number (as contaminated as it is given that FT has played under different rules over the years) escapes me. Attributing "value" to a member's contribution to FT simply based on post count seems extremely superficial.

The other thing people should remember is that OMNI posts did count....until Randy up and decided one day (more accurately, in the middle of the night) that they wouldn't count.

The obscenely high post counts that many people have around FT and the Evangelist titles built under many people's names come, in many cases, from OMNI posts. Or for other people, from posts in those contest threads that Randy had before he left for MP.

I have always been of the opinion that if we're not going to count OMNI posts, then this should be applied retroactively. NO posts EVER from OMNI should count then.

Of course, my first preference is to count everything and be done with it.

I don't plan on making my TB term, should I be elected, about OMNI post counts. I do feel that we need to address this early in the term, though, and then quickly move on.

I would agree with removing previous OMNI posts counts, but I'm not so sure how feasible that is.

And you mention that you don't plan on making your TB term about this, so let's just get it out of the way and move on. Well hasn't that happened? What's a vote now going to change, as this is an issue that will keep coming up. I don't see a vote, even one that passed 9-0, as really getting the issue of of the way.

When this came up recently, why didn't it pass? I remember there being some ferocious debates on the subject, and I'm really interested to hear what FTers have to say on the issue.

The importance that some members place on this number (as contaminated as it is given that FT has played under different rules over the years) escapes me. Attributing "value" to a member's contribution to FT simply based on post count seems extremely superficial.

Disagree. There is clearly value to how active a member is. Plain and simple.

Disagree. There is clearly value to how active a member is. Plain and simple.

Please define "value". Activity is valuable in terms of fostering community, which is important for any organization, including an internet bulletin board. But activity doesn't necessarily equate to "value" if the community isn't providing content related to the objective of that organization. I see members who lurk or post sporadically, contributing little content directed towards FT's mission/objective. I also see newbies who post extremely helpful information in their very first post, or perhaps have posted only a handful of times and yet offer far more "content" than someone who posts regularly in OMNI or in the lounges.

Both types of members add "value", but I don't think "activity" is a good way to measure that value.

Please define "value". Activity is valuable in terms of fostering community, which is important for any organization, including an internet bulletin board. But activity doesn't necessarily equate to "value" if the community isn't providing content related to the objective of that organization. I see members who lurk or post sporadically, contributing little content directed towards FT's mission/objective. I also see newbies who post extremely helpful information in their very first post, or perhaps have posted only a handful of times and yet offer far more "content" than someone who posts regularly in OMNI or in the lounges.

Both types of members add "value", but I don't think "activity" is a good way to measure that value.

Yes. Someone's first post can be really helpful. And someone with 60K posts might not be helpful at all. But generally, I think many people do look at post counts to gauge how active a poster is, to help determine the veracity of their posts.

Yes. Someone's first post can be really helpful. And someone with 60K posts might not be helpful at all. But generally, I think many people do look at post counts to gauge how active a poster is, to help determine the veracity of their posts.

I understand that's what you're saying and I disagree with the premise that a high post count (i.e., how "active" a poster is) means that there's more "veracity" to that member's posts. As I wrote before, I think relying on post count is a superficial way of measuring "value" or "contribution", thus I'd be in favor of eliminating post count altogether.

I would agree with removing previous OMNI posts counts, but I'm not so sure how feasible that is.

And you mention that you don't plan on making your TB term about this, so let's just get it out of the way and move on. Well hasn't that happened? What's a vote now going to change, as this is an issue that will keep coming up. I don't see a vote, even one that passed 9-0, as really getting the issue of of the way.

When this came up recently, why didn't it pass? I remember there being some ferocious debates on the subject, and I'm really interested to hear what FTers have to say on the issue.

It would get the issue out of the way for the first half of a TB term, wouldn't it?

It's something that will likely come up at the beginning of every TB year, quite frankly, as there are quite a few people on both sides of the issue.

My point is this -- let's work out a motion, have it proposed and seconded and voted on, and then move on until the next year.

OMNI and Coupon Connection are restricted access for a few reasons. CC in part because it involves trading, people want to know that their trading partner is honest and they aren't going to get stiffed on the trade. ^ And rightly so

OMNI is restricted in part because of trolls who joined simply to post in OMNI, and had no desire to contribute to the points and miles discussions, and as such added nothing to the community. ^ And rightly so (redux)

.....I apologize, but I vehemently disagree with this proposed solution. The lounge threads have become as much a part of the FlyerTalk culture as anything else. Sequestering them away in a remote forum would completely obfuscate their entire raison d'être.

If you still believe that lounge threads add no value, I invite you to visit the following lounges:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/alaska-airlines-mileage-plan/794919-alaska-airlines-lounge-thread-everybody-welcome.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/481066-delta-forum-lounge-thread-everybody-welcome.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileage-plus-consolidated/1200295-penalty-box.html

I am sure other lounges are similarly valuable, but these are the three that I have (for better or for worse) become familiar with.Then as I said at the beginning of my post that you quoted which you didn't include

So with all my rambling, the way it is now under the current set up with lounge thread posts counting, then Omni posts should count....

Hey, I can't get in on this? :D Yes, I think OMNI posts should count.

If a flat out all OMNI posts count won't pass, then the idea to split OMNI that I referenced earlier could be a viable compromise, but I'd rather that all OMNI posts count.

I think we all agree with you if they can reinstating the post count again. They have be respectful to others. I think it's right choice for me. We can give another chance to restore the post count again.

There's a problem with making a separate lounge forum, the lounges will be emptier. I don't think half of the people that use The Penelty Box on the UA forum, for example, would use it if their was a Lounge Forum. Besides, isn't that practically Omni?

I agree that there may be a loss of posting in the thread, but why should someone get a post for saying good morning? I am not saying that all of the people are just saying good morning, but there is nothing substantive to that post. We should be rewarding those that contribute substantive information.

Delta747