Travel with Children - More information on family un-friendly premium cabins please!

Hi fellow flyers,

I was curious about this subject since it's popped up a few times on this board.

I understand that the "herring bone" configuration is especially bad when flying with little ones. Which airlines/aircraft have these?

What airline seats can't be used for car seats or CARES harnesses?

Have any of your flown with your child in a family unfriendly premium cabin and how did it go? Any tips for flying in a cabin that for example, you can't see your older children and/or spouse very well from your seat?

Are any so bad that you'd recommend just sitting in Economy and being done with it??

No lap baby or whether a child should be in a premium cabin debates please (since you can do that elsewhere). I'd like to focus on the product itself and whether it's been a problem for any of you.

AC has herringbones as well as airbag lap belts.

Their policy states

Child restraint devices are not permitted in the Executive First Suites at any time.
When occupying an Executive First Suite, a child age 2 to 5 must be seated directly in front of the accompanying parent or guardian.
The child and the accompanying guardian will receive a mandatory briefing on the safety features of the Executive First Suite prior to takeoff.

Please contact Air Canada Reservations whenever booking travel with young children in Executive First Class to ensure the availability of appropriate seating.

You may wish to add the airbag issue to your list of questions. Herringbone seating isn't really appropriate for any pair of people travelling together if they plan to converse much during the flight.

I understand that the "herring bone" configuration is especially bad when flying with little ones. Which airlines/aircraft have these?

A very large number these days, including, for example, DL, UA, CX, AC, NZ, VA, AF, 9W, the list goes on... In general, it will depend on the particular cabin and aircraft on which you're flying, so best to just check before booking.

What airline seats can't be used for car seats or CARES harnesses?

I started a thread on precisely this in this very forum last year; search will turn it up. As the previous poster points out, airbags are the real issue here. Any updates much appreciated!

Have any of your flown with your child in a family unfriendly premium cabin and how did it go? Any tips for flying in a cabin that for example, you can't see your older children and/or spouse very well from your seat?

Many times. For herringbone cabins in the nose of a 747, try to get the first two seats; you can often see across the aisle better than further back where the aisle is wider. C on NZ's 747 is a great example of this. Otherwise, you'll often find that the rows are off-set across the aisle. This is true, for example, on DL and 9W C. In that case, we find that booking the two adults in subsequent rows, and the child across the aisle in the row "in between" allows for the best sharing of child-minding duties. Of course, this strategy only works when the adults out-number the children!

Be extremely cautious booking "adjacent" seats in the middle of the aircraft, as there is frequently a wall or divider that prevents you from reaching---or sometimes even seeing---into the adjacent seat. it's much easier to watch/leap across the aisle in these configurations.

These configuration tips are less applicable to F, where the seats tend to be bigger and the suites often much more private---and therefore hard to see/reach into. As I've said many times before, IMHO C is almost always a better choice than F with small children, both for the family and fellow travelers sharing the premium cabin with you.

Are any so bad that you'd recommend just sitting in Economy and being done with it??

Don't be silly! If you want---and can afford---premium seats for your family, just book another airline/aircraft with a more family-friendly configuration. There are precious few routes with absolutely no option

We flew on AA, CX and QF this year in premium class with our 5 years old daughter. AA and QF flights are well designed for partner/family traveling together. CX has the Herringbone seat in J. We normally book one window and one aisle seat next to each other which allow for easy access to each other. My little girl enjoyed herself in these seats. We also sat with her on her seat to read stories. The privacy of these Herringbone seats really makes it easy to do these kind of activities. QF F class seat allows for dining together on same seat sitting face to face, which is really nice. Essentially my little girl can spend a lot of time with me during flight unless she wants to lie down to sleep, by then she would go back to her own "bed".

Travel with children in Premium class really makes life so much easier and more comfortable.

That's good to know but travel, in general, is much easier with a 5 year old child than with a baby or toddler, in any class. You were also only traveling with one. Makes a big difference!

But you can't really put a baby in his or her own seat if you can't see them. A 2 year old just wont understand and the time it takes to take-off can be long. They're also totally capable of undoing the seat belt and getting up to try to find Mommy or Daddy. Any solutions to that one??

That's good to know but travel, in general, is much easier with a 5 year old child than with a baby or toddler, in any class. You were also only traveling with one. Makes a big difference!

But you can't really put a baby in his or her own seat if you can't see them. A 2 year old just wont understand and the time it takes to take-off can be long. They're also totally capable of undoing the seat belt and getting up to try to find Mommy or Daddy. Any solutions to that one??

If you are traveling with 2 years old, it's essential he/she sits next to you. Book AA or QF flight will resolve this problem. When my daughter was 2 years old, I normally pointed her to the seat belt sign when we just boarded and told her this's just like riding a car, that she couldn't take her seat belt off until that seat belt sign said so. Then I used the time during take off to tell her story to grasp her attention and served her a juice to reduce any ear pain until we were airborne

If you are traveling with 2 years old, it's essential he/she sits next to you. Book AA or QF flight will resolve this problem. When my daughter was 2 years old, I normally pointed her to the seat belt sign when we just boarded and told her this's just like riding a car, that she couldn't take her seat belt off until that seat belt sign said so. Then I used the time during take off to tell her story to grasp her attention and served her a juice to reduce any ear pain until we were airborne

But again, the issue in some premium cabins is the airbag in the seatbelt, and/or the lack of child restraint devices being used. I used AC as one example, but there are others which specifically prohibit the smallest passengers in premium cabins due to this issue.

There is a weight minimum for the airbag then? Apparently there are different designs.

That's nice that you could talk to your 2 year old like that. She must be very mature for her age. At age 2, one didn't talk and the other very little (the middle child was using sentences and yes, I fed them the same stuff lol!) The point is that very few 2 years old could be "talked into" sitting in an isolated seat nicely for long periods it can take to get an aircraft into the air.

there are others which specifically prohibit the smallest passengers in premium cabins due to this issue.

So they don't allow children under a certain age in the cabin at all?

So they don't allow children under a certain age in the cabin at all?

From the AC link:
Child restraint devices are not permitted in the Executive First Suites at any time.

Real life experiences on AC:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-canada-aeroplan/1262912-travelling-ac-executive-suite-infant.html

All 3 of ours have flown as lap kids in J pods, no problems to report, except
you have to sit in seats that have 2 oxygen masks ( Not all qualify).

the baby has to be on one side of the seat........... because there is an airbag on the other side........... however, i have heard stories on this forum where both the mother and child has been asked to sit in Y

And directly from an AC Service Director:

Lap held infants are permitted in all E/F suites - the parent is provided with an individual safety briefing. Infants must be held inward away from the inflatable portion and outside of the seatbelt.

And once the child becomes larger the pods may be an issue:

I would say, however, that when you get to the 2 - 3 year old stage when kids need their own seat but still a lot of supervision, the pod setup is not great. Just too hard to reach over and help with food, seatbelts exc. When traveling with our son now we have had great success with Lufthansa in business or their old style international first. I actually think that LH new style F would be better than old style because one has in effect two seats - a seat, and a bed. But I don't know what the limitations are regarding bassinnettes and/or child restraints in those seats from the top of my head.

This is interesting.

I understand that car seats are not allowed with seats that don't face entirely forward (correct?) So small ones can sit up there but not with a restraint.

Also, I'm still curious, is a newly-turned, perhaps small, 2 year old able to sit in a seat alone with an airbag? I get the lap baby stuff but can it be turned off? (methinks not).

Not, but you may wish to PM the two SD's who I know post on AC - ACYYZ/SD and AC SD YVR. They can certainly give you more details, I suspect, and at least one of them posted on that thread.

We have not had a problem with our 2-year old being seated in either DL or NZ's pods. We have not flown AC, but no airline has ever told us there was a weight limit for their premium seats---many just, as discussed above, forbid child restraints. While I understand the concern regarding airbags and small children, I would be surprised to hear the airline would routinely disable them for pax. (I fall in the camp that says if it were to deploy, you have many other issues---turbulence is the issue that seems worth worrying about.)

I agree that it is a rare 2-year-old that will sit alone for take-off and landing. Luckily, ours is one. In the worst case, though, you can just keep the child with you during takeoff and landing, presuming there are sufficient oxygen masks in the seat in question.

A two year has to be in their own seat. This is a rule almost everywhere in commercial aviation. Or is there a second seat of some sort in the pod??

A two year has to be in their own seat. This is a rule almost everywhere in commercial aviation. Or is there a second seat of some sort in the pod??

Well, yes, there is a second seat with seatbelt---the footrest turns into a seat for shared dining---but that is not allowed to be used for takeoff and landing. In our experience, though, the flight attendants do not check birth certificates and have always asked if we wanted our 2-year-old to sit with us during takeoff/landing. As always, YMMV.

Wow, that must not have been on a U.S. company!

The birth certificates were usually checked by ground staff.

Kind of a shame to have a seat for a 2 year old and still hold him for take-off and landing. Not very safe either...

Wow, that must not have been on a U.S. company!

Actually, I've had FAs on DL suggest it as well---how are they supposed to know how old the ticketed child is?

The birth certificates were usually checked by ground staff.

True, for infants in lap. However, I haven't found any airline that has a minimum age for a purchased seat, so no need to see documentation on age in this case.

Kind of a shame to have a seat for a 2 year old and still hold him for take-off and landing. Not very safe either...

I agree. We leave our son in his seat for takeoff and landing, but can understand that some toddlers might not be ready for that. As to safety, if you don't believe your child is safe in a regular seat belt, then you might prefer a different carrier or cabin.

Air New Zealand - herringbone seats on all new interior planes (747, 777-200, 777-300). Forward facing seats on 767.

Some foreign companies actually do have a minimum. A lot of British companies require a 6 month minimum but partly because only forward facing car seats are allowed. There are all sorts of weird rules out there.

It's not really the F/A's job to check BC's but any crew on an American company who allow a turned-2 year old to go in a lap could be fined by the FAA and would be in big trouble with their airline. I can't say fired (because those rules are complicated) but it's definitely a big no-no. But if the F/A already had a dodgy record...

I personally wouldn't enjoy the perks of First Class if I had a 2 year old bouncing around in an isolated pod and I couldn't see him or her at all times and couldn't interact with them.

Some foreign companies actually do have a minimum. A lot of British companies require a 6 month minimum but partly because only forward facing car seats are allowed. There are all sorts of weird rules out there.

Good to know. We didn't travel internationally with our son until 6 mos, so hadn't run across that.

I personally wouldn't enjoy the perks of First Class if I had a 2 year old bouncing around in an isolated pod and I couldn't see him or her at all times and couldn't interact with them.

Well, if the flight is over night (which is what we always try to book with our son), the amount of time we want to interact with him in the air is minimal: our goal is to get him to sleep as soon after takeoff as possible. So the benefits of a flat bed---in which he will sleep, unlike recliner or "cradle" seats---out weigh the inconvenience of not being able to reach him for the taxi/takeoff/landing. That said, we certainly book cabins with flat beds that are not "suites" or "pods" whenever possible.

I thought I would post some comments about travel with our 2 children (1 yr son and 2.5 yr daughter) on CX in business class. It was actually very different than I thought it would be, I've been on CX many times as a solo business traveler and had read cautionary tales here and expected the worst with the kids. It actually worked pretty well.

First, if you get all four seats on one side of the minicabin on a 777, it's stellar. There was so much room and so much privacy from others. In fact, when my son cried and fussed, we put him in the second row window seat, reclined back as a bed, and partially back into a recessed area and you could hardly hear him on the other side of the mini cabin.

Second, as for room to move around and play, I found putting the seat all the way down but the leg rest up and sitting on the edge and reading gave him a big play area. That worked well except when I wanted to be sleeping! I found that there was enough room for me to sleep on my side with my son sleeping in an area up by my chest and head. It wasnt bad, would have been better if he had wanted to sleep some more on the 15 hour flight over to HKG!

As for my daughter, she loved it and had no problem sitting in her seat on take off and landing (we explained that the captain required her to do that and she seemed to take that at face value). She loved the movies and figured out all the seat controls and even the FA call button. I cannot wait until my son is about that age, it will be a much easier trip!

We had some shorter (5 hour) segments on the CX 747 and were seated in the main business class cabin. We had almost the entire right side of the cabin on one flight, and that was nice. But the minicabin on the 777 was really the way to go for the longhaul.

Overall, the herringbone design wasnt as bad with 2 kids as I was expecting.

Good to know! Thanks for the report. Could you see them for take-off and landing?