European Rail Travel - Brussles to Antwerp and Bruges

Is train the best way for Brussels to other Belgian cities like Antwerp and Bruges ? Or is there like a inexpensive bus ? They don't seem that far apart, its a small country so I thought maybe bus would be more acceptable than normal. If by train how does their train system work? Do you have to buy way in advance to get a good price (like the UK) or can you just walk up and buy a ticket for a low price right before you leave ?

Turn up and buy a ticket. The trains are frequent.

The fares systems in all continental European countries tend to be far easier to understand than the warped, complex, disintegrated British "system".

awesome, thank you, that makes things much easier.

As an example, I traveled from Brussels Centrale to Gent last month - I walked up to the ticket office, bought my ticket for €8, and departed 20 minutes later.

Unless you're in posession of a car (owned or rented), the train is the best way to get around Belgium if you want to go to the big cities. That said, there are frequent delays on lines between Brussels and the rest of the country, because the North-South link is at capacity. Also at rush hour the trains on trunk routes (Brussels-Antwerp, Brussels-Gent-North Sea, etc) tend to be very full, so chance of finding a seat at that sime will be slim.

Edit: @Non-NonRev: did you enjoy Gent?

Great information, thanks everyone.

Just so that I can have more options is there a good bus service between the cities that's cheaper than the trains but not much longer ?

Edit: @Non-NonRev: did you enjoy Gent?It was a short trip (the main purpose was to see the Calixto Bieito production of 'Aufsteig und Fall der Stadt Mahagonny' at the Vlaamse Opera). I did take some time for a bit of touring, and enjoyed the historical sights and interacting with the people. Having had my appetite whetted, I do intend to come back (maybe next year) for an extended visit.

Just so that I can have more options is there a good bus service between the cities that's cheaper than the trains but not much longer ?

Nope, the only bus services are local buses which are slow.
here (http://www.delijn.be) you can find more info about those local bus services though.

I agree...........take the train!
We took the train from Brussels to Bruges last year. As a result, we discovered the beauty of Ghent (from the windows of the train) and the buzz around the excellent film "In Bruges", a comedy/thriller set amidst the ancient town:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/

There's a music festival in Hasslet that I'd like to attend on 03/17. It's on a Saturday night and I'd need to head back to BRU to catch a 9am flight right after.

What would my options be, if any?

Turn up and buy a ticket. The trains are frequent.

The fares systems in all continental European countries tend to be far easier to understand than the warped, complex, disintegrated British "system".

But they are getting worse. At least pretty much all UK trains (except Sleepers/Eurostar) are fully walk-up without reservations being required, and off-peak walk-up fares are still not unreasonably priced.

Disintegration, compulsory reservations, global ticketing and the likes have IMO made European rail travel far worse than UK in ticketing terms.

There are still islands of common sense (Dutch non-Fyra and non-Thalys, Belgian, Swiss) but the rest of it is getting progressively worse.

Neil

Disintegration, compulsory reservations, global ticketing and the likes have IMO made European rail travel far worse than UK in ticketing terms.

Worse in what sense?

One example: in the last version of Avantix Traveller [effectively a database of Britain's train fares], looking at various destinations and operators from my local station, I found no less than seven definitions of "off-peak". How is the average passenger supposed to make any sense of that?

There's a music festival in Hasslet that I'd like to attend on 03/17. It's on a Saturday night and I'd need to head back to BRU to catch a 9am flight right after.

What would my options be, if any?

The trains don't run through the night so you'd need to wait at Hasselt until the first train on Sunday morning. You need to take IC1528 leaves Hasselt 06.01 arrives Leuven 06.55. Change to IR3728 leaves Leuven 07.07 arrives Brussels Airport 07.22. That station is pretty much in the airport terminal so you'll easily catch a 9am flight (assuming your mind is still working properly).

The trains don't run through the night so you'd need to wait at Hasselt until the first train on Sunday morning. You need to take IC1528 leaves Hasselt 06.01 arrives Leuven 06.55. Change to IR3728 leaves Leuven 07.07 arrives Brussels Airport 07.22. That station is pretty much in the airport terminal so you'll easily catch a 9am flight (assuming your mind is still working properly).And if the concert doesn't last very long, the last train on the Saturday leaves Hasselt at 22:10, with changes at Aarschot and Leuven, arriving at BRU Airport at 23:22.

Worse in what sense?

One ticket per train, no interavailability, compulsory reservations, a million and one different types of ticket with stupid names and different conditions.

Not an issue in CH, nor Belgium. In the Netherlands there's Fyra with its pointless different fare system. In Germany, the base fare is high, so you get forced into advance purchase (there are no off-peak walk-up fares). In France and Spain, all of the above. In eastern Europe, it's getting worse...

Simpler in the sense of "book it in advance and you know it's valid". Absolutely useless as a substitute for the car, if you like the car's flexibility (that being the car's main strength).

I do not like to book my travel in advance. I am forced to do so by the airlines, as they have no reasonable competition (2 days' travel is no good for business purposes, so rail doesn't count, and in any case Eurostar are a railed airline). If domestic rail travel heads that way, I will drive.

One example: in the last version of Avantix Traveller [effectively a database of Britain's train fares], looking at various destinations and operators from my local station, I found no less than seven definitions of "off-peak". How is the average passenger supposed to make any sense of that?

What is your local station? It might help in making sense of that.

Neil

What is your local station? It might help in making sense of that.

Neil

Not sure what difference that makes - and anyway, this is probably not the place to have this discussion. But I looked again and actually found 10 different off-peak restrictions. This included "Mon-Fri not valid before" restrictions of 08:15, 08:45, 09:00, 09:15 and 09:30 depending on the destination.

Not sure what difference that makes - and anyway, this is probably not the place to have this discussion. But I looked again and actually found 10 different off-peak restrictions. This included "Mon-Fri not valid before" restrictions of 08:15, 08:45, 09:00, 09:15 and 09:30 depending on the destination.

The size of the station, and how many destinations it has, is very relevant.

If your local station was one in the South East with a commuter service to London only, such a restriction set would be preposterous.

If your local station was Manchester Piccadilly, I would be amazed if there weren't more different restrictions by route.

Different restrictions are needed, otherwise you end up with the incredibly blunt instrument of "nothing before 9:30" that CrossCountry uses, that takes out off-peak tickets on trains that plain aren't busy, and makes some journeys completely impossible on off-peak tickets unless you break your journey overnight half-way.

Neil

The size of the station, and how many destinations it has, is very relevant.

If your local station was one in the South East with a commuter service to London only, such a restriction set would be preposterous.

If your local station was Manchester Piccadilly, I would be amazed if there weren't more different restrictions by route.

Different restrictions are needed, otherwise you end up with the incredibly blunt instrument of "nothing before 9:30" that CrossCountry uses, that takes out off-peak tickets on trains that plain aren't busy, and makes some journeys completely impossible on off-peak tickets unless you break your journey overnight half-way.

Neil

The point I was making was that the British train fare system was overly complex. You seem to be confirming that somewhat - though I wouldn't agree with the necessity bit. The example I quoted is really ridiculous in my view - especially if you are a passenger (or a ticket inspector!).

The point I was making was that the British train fare system was overly complex. You seem to be confirming that somewhat

It is complex, but I think these days it is by no means worse than the other options that are becoming common.

After all, you *can* always treat any British train ticket as book-in-advance, specific train if you want. Do that via one of the online booking engines and you'll never get caught out with an invalid ticket.

But if you do your homework you can discover a world of flexibility at a reasonable price, which is not offered *at all* on many other European railways, which unlike the UK increasingly move to "reservations compulsory". No guaranteed travel at any price.

though I wouldn't agree with the necessity bit. The example I quoted is really ridiculous in my view - especially if you are a passenger (or a ticket inspector!).

How ridiculous it is depends on what services you're referring to. As you won't tell us which station you're referring to (that's hardly going to identify you, particularly as with that list of restrictions it's hardly likely to be a wayside halt in a tiny hamlet!) we can't see what the logic is.

Neil

I appreciate everyone for their nice reply. But as my point of view, best way to reach Antwerp or Bruges is take SNCB train from Brussels Midi station that connecting to Antwerp or Brussels directly.
Thanks everyone. :)

One ticket per train, no interavailability, compulsory reservations, a million and one different types of ticket with stupid names and different conditions.

I'm lost. Most countries' walk-up fares are distance-based and simple to understand. Not like Britain, where they have been market-based (read: increasingly complex) for many years.

Consider this example: I want to buy an off-peak day return from Birmingham to Crewe.

a) The average passenger will go up to the ticket office, ask for this ticket, and be sold an Anytime Return ticket for £23.50.

b) If he is lucky, a knowledgeable ticket seller will offer him instead the West Midlands Day Ranger for £21.60, which covers this route.

c) If he has done some more research, he will find that by buying two tickets, splitting at an intermediate point, he can save money, but the ticket-seller is not authorised to offer this option - he can only sell it if specifically asked for by the passenger. In this case, splitting at Stafford brings down the price to £19.40.

d) If he has an afternoon to spare, he can consult and try to understand the complexities of the National Routeing Guide. After some considerable study, he might find out that from Birmingham to Wrexham the following maps show available routes: BC, BC+CH, BP+LC; BP+LC+CL; WS. And studying maps BC+CH shows that a Birmingham - Wrexham ticket is valid via Crewe. He then finds out that an off-peak day return ticket from Birmingham to Wrexham (which he can legitimately use only to/from Crewe) is only £15.30 - that is, 35% less than the ticket he would have been sold at the ticket office.

There are many examples of such ridiculous situations. How can you compare this to a simple-to-understand mileage-based system?

In Germany, the base fare is high, so you get forced into advance purchase (there are no off-peak walk-up fares).

Are they really that high compared to the UK? In Germany, they also have the big advantage of a national discount railcard available to all. And as for the commuter .... well, for less than the price of an annual 2nd class season ticket from Peterborough to London (all of 120km each way), you can get a 1st class annual BahnCard giving you unlimited travel on the whole German rail network.

In eastern Europe, it's getting worse...

Again, this baffles me. Where, for example? I know in Hungary the system is breathtakingly simple:

- distances are published in the timetable;
- there is one fare table showing prices by distance - and divided by full fare, and the various fixed percentage discounts offered (e.g for students);
- return fares are double one-way fares;
- on a few trains you have to pay an IC supplement ....
... and that's about it.

I'm lost. Most countries' walk-up fares are distance-based and simple to understand.

What walk-up fares would those be on, say, the TGV, Ave, Corail Teoz, Thalys etc? There is no guaranteed travel - if it's full, it's full. If you want to change the train you're using, you have to change your ticket.

There are many examples of such ridiculous situations. How can you compare this to a simple-to-understand mileage-based system?

Few countries still operate such a system.

Are they really that high compared to the UK?

Compared to off-peak walk-up fares, yes. Look a few up - they are eye-watering.

In Germany, they also have the big advantage of a national discount railcard available to all.

True, but at somewhat of a price.

And as for the commuter .... well, for less than the price of an annual 2nd class season ticket from Peterborough to London (all of 120km each way), you can get a 1st class annual BahnCard giving you unlimited travel on the whole German rail network.

A different approach to the issue - BR never did that either. And if you make London commuting *too* cheap, it will be infeasible to offer the capacity needed. Germany is multi-centric so that issue isn't so much there.

Again, this baffles me. Where, for example? I know in Hungary the system is breathtakingly simple:

- distances are published in the timetable;
- there is one fare table showing prices by distance - and divided by full fare, and the various fixed percentage discounts offered (e.g for students);
- return fares are double one-way fares;
- on a few trains you have to pay an IC supplement ....
... and that's about it.

Eastern Europe is politically rather different. But if you want an Eastern European example, try Poland. Regional and IC are different companies, even though both are nationalised. Tickets are not interavailable. Reservations are compulsory on IC services.

No thanks.

Neil

What walk-up fares would those be on, say, the TGV, Ave, Corail Teoz, Thalys etc? There is no guaranteed travel - if it's full, it's full. If you want to change the train you're using, you have to change your ticket.

Generally very easy to change your ticket at machines at short notice in France, I believe (at least for TGVs) - and you know you will get a seat. There is not always guaranteed travel in Britain - "informal" seat regulation is carried out on some busy long-distance trains, and you may not get on the train if you don't have a reservation. Just it might not be evident, before you travel, on which trains this will happen.

Few countries still operate such a system.

Well, apart from Hungary: Germany, Austria and Switzerland for starters, none of which is an insignificant railway territory. Here is an interesting article (http://www.railpro.co.uk/magazine/?idArticles=1089) about this very issue.

Compared to off-peak walk-up fares, yes. Look a few up - they are eye-watering.

Birmingham - London peak £79, off-peak £46
Birmingham - Preston £42 anytime
compared with:
Munich - Nuremberg (similar distance) £43 anytime

London - Glasgow peak £162, off-peak £120
compared with:
Munich - Berlin (slightly shorter distance) £100 anytime. And you only need to do one round-trip in a year on this route to start to make savings with a BahnCard 25.

The DB fares don't seem way more expensive to me.

Generally very easy to change your ticket at machines at short notice in France, I believe (at least for TGVs) - and you know you will get a seat.

If the train is full, you won't get to *travel*, let alone a seat. I am fundamentally opposed to this for rail travel. If it were to be introduced in the UK, almost all my long-distance travel would change to be by car.

There is not always guaranteed travel in Britain - "informal" seat regulation is carried out on some busy long-distance trains

It happens at Christmas, and station access is very occasionally regulated for large sporting events. It is not common and it is not something I have personally ever encountered during many, many miles of rail travel in all parts of the UK.

*Very* occasionally trains get extremely full, e.g. the first off-peak trains out of Euston on a Friday, but it's so rare to end up in a situation where you physically couldn't get another passenger on (even in discomfort) that it's irrelevant.

and you may not get on the train if you don't have a reservation. Just it might not be evident, before you travel, on which trains this will happen.

There is the "black R" warning in the timetable - reservations recommended - which will apply to any such train. But in practice it is infinitessimally rare. So rare that a cancellation or delay is rather more likely to cause disruption.

Well, apart from Hungary: Germany, Austria and Switzerland for starters, none of which is an insignificant railway territory. Here is an interesting article (http://www.railpro.co.uk/magazine/?idArticles=1089) about this very issue.

Europe seems to be roughly in two halves - the kilometric systems, and the market priced ones with compulsory reservations. FWIW, ICE in Germany is market-priced, not kilometric, and always has been; that was the "besonderer Fahrpreis" from day one.

"A small surcharge of extra ‘miles’ on some routes, into London for example, would allow for modest regional differences."

If you're going to do that, it isn't a kilometric fare system, but a market-priced one, albeit a perhaps more sensible one.

FWIW, I think we should have a kilometric system with the following kind of features:-

- Zonal "Verbundtarif", rather than kilometric pricing, applying within all town/city areas.

- Kilometric "base" fare of the kind of level that would result in a full-fare return from London to Manchester being around the £150 mark, which I think is not far from what it'd be in Germany. It's about 180 miles, so that would give an "Anytime" rate of about 42p/mile. That would give an Anytime Return from Milton Keynes Central to London as just short of 40 quid, which is not far off what it is currently.

- A discount of around 50% for off-peak travel, that being defined as something like "travel prohibited between 0500-0930 or between 1600-1800."

- Possibly consideration of a deeper off-peak discount, say of 65-70%, with a tighter restriction, say "travel prohibited between 0500-1030, between 1500-1900, on Fridays after 1500, and on Sundays after 1400".

- A fare cap set at approximately 200-250 miles of travel on a single journey. This would mean that those doing very long journeys (where no off-peak travel is possible as you have to start early) would not be penalised by the off-peak restrictions.

- Another fixed discount for quota-controlled advance booking, if we're bothering with it.

- Season tickets calculated to assume 5 round trip journeys per week at a discounted rate of around 60% of base fare for monthly season tickets, about 80% for weekly season tickets. Season tickets into a "Verbund" area such as London to be calculated using the kilometric fare to the Verbund area border plus the full Verbund fare.

- Child fare 50% of adult fare for age up to but not including 16.

- GroupSave to be rolled out nationally, with groups of 3 or 4 travelling together on one ticket paying only two fares, with up to 4 additional children at 25% of base fare. The number of passengers to be specified at the time of purchase.

- Retain the existing Railcard set, plus two new "National Railcards" replacing the Network Railcard. One, the Off-Peak National Railcard, priced at around £30-40, would offer discount of 1/3 on off-peak fares only. Another, priced at around £100-£150, would offer discount of 1/3 on all non-season-ticket fares at all times.

- Except in Verbund areas where day tickets and passes would be the most common fares, round trip fares to be twice the one-way fare.

- Tickets under 50 miles valid on day specified only. Tickets over 50 miles valid on day specified plus the following day. Unlimited break of journey permitted within this validity.

- Return (round trip) tickets validity: outward as above, return one month, but once journey is started validity is as above.

- First Class is priced at 150% of the equivalent second class fare.

The above would clear up a lot of the mess while not substantially changing the conditions of travel over now, and without substantial fare increases or reductions in most cases.

Birmingham - London peak £79, off-peak £46
Birmingham - Preston £42 anytime
compared with:
Munich - Nuremberg (similar distance) £43 anytime

London - Glasgow peak £162, off-peak £120
compared with:
Munich - Berlin (slightly shorter distance) £100 anytime. And you only need to do one round-trip in a year on this route to start to make savings with a BahnCard 25.

The DB fares don't seem way more expensive to me.

Single fares, presumably? Remember that off-peak UK return fares are *not* twice the single. So London-Glasgow is likely to be around £130 or less. That makes the comparison fare (given that most journeys are round-trips) really about £65 each way. DB suddenly seems a bit expensive off-peak.

Neil

A few more:-

- Pre-arranged (purchased at least one day in advance, but not quota-controlled) group travel discounted at 50% of adult or child fares if the group, travelling together at all times, is of more than 10 people. The present 10% discount is pointless as Railcards and GroupSave are always better.

- Off-peak and "super-off-peak" season tickets available by applying both the season ticket discount *and* the off-peak discount.

- "Carnets" of 10 of any given one-way ticket (valid in both directions) at 10% discount.

Neil

*Very* occasionally trains get extremely full, e.g. the first off-peak trains out of Euston on a Friday, but it's so rare to end up in a situation where you physically couldn't get another passenger on (even in discomfort) that it's irrelevant.

Not irrelevant according to Virgin:

Virgin Trains timetable: On Fridays these services are extremely busy. Reservations are recommended and customers without a reservation may be refused boarding and required to travel on other services.


This applies to about 10 trains including the 11:30 London to Glasgow - hardly a peak-time departure. I've seen boarding controlled several times at Euston.

[snip] ...The above would clear up a lot of the mess while not substantially changing the conditions of travel over now, and without substantial fare increases or reductions in most cases.

I think that generally makes a lot of sense. Defining the peak, off-peak periods more rigorously, for example, would definitely be better than the myriad of different restrictions (e.g. post 12) which only cause confusion.

This applies to about 10 trains including the 11:30 London to Glasgow - hardly a peak-time departure. I've seen boarding controlled several times at Euston.

Ten trains a week is a miniscule number compared with the 9 trains per *hour* they operate out of Euston! I see your point, but just to deal with "black R" trains (as these are) I wouldn't want to have compulsory reservations at other times, when having a few standing passengers just solves the problem nicely.

I've heard them request people to use the Friday relief (the Standard-only 1830ish Preston service - which I'd choose to use as if you get there early enough First Class is fair game!) if it serves their station, to ensure that there's enough room on a Glasgow train for people actually going to Glasgow, but I don't remember seeing actual controls operating particularly often. Particularly not with the increased 3tph service to Manchester, and I suspect even less so once the Pendolinos get the extra two coaches each (capacity: about 60 seats each, plus about another 30 standing at a crush) they're due.

Neil

I just hope they've moved along from the situation I'd often encounter on the Virgin Cross Country services between Birmingham New Street and Manchester in the early 2000s.

It was always so busy between New Street and Wolverhampton that once all of the seats, carriages and "vestibule areas" were full, there would often be 6 people crammed into those ridiculous loos with the slow-moving curvy door. Very pleasant...especially when somebody actually wanted to use the facilities.

You can understand why people hang off the roofs of train carriages in more temperate climes, but I wouldn't recommend it in the black country.

And if the concert doesn't last very long, the last train on the Saturday leaves Hasselt at 22:10, with changes at Aarschot and Leuven, arriving at BRU Airport at 23:22.

Sensation White is an all-night dance party, and it is very unlikely that anyone will have even turned up for it by 22:10... :D

And if the concert doesn't last very long, the last train on the Saturday leaves Hasselt at 22:10, with changes at Aarschot and Leuven, arriving at BRU Airport at 23:22.

Got a feeling it's a night called Sensation....I doubt too many will be in the venue by 22:00!
Definitely an early train and sunglasses trip.