Hilton HHonors - PhotoID Now Required?!?!?

I spent last week in New Orleans. The Front
Desk demanded 2 govt issued photo IDs. They
insisted that this has been a corporate
requirement since 9/11. NOT my experience.

Either the New Orlean Hilton reps are lying
or no other Hilton properties are toeing the
corporate line. This is the first time that
I have run across such a demand.

I gave them my CCW permit and a novelty
passport [for Rhodesia]. They seemed
happy with both. What a frigg'n crock.

Anyone else running across such nonsense?

Adam, what's the real deal?

-doug

Ten stays since 9/11 NOT ONCE did they ask for even one piece of photo ID much less two,
I usually hand them HHonors card, Airline and credit card when I walk up to the desk.
No quesions asked besides most people usually have only their DL with photo ID.

Sounds like a bunch of crock to me,would they have denied you a room with only a DL? Mike

Jan 2 at Hilton Suites Anaheim I was surprised by the same I.D. request. She said it was policy since 9/11. In my previous stay in Dec they didn't ask. Every other Hilton or Hampton stay since then they haven't asked. My bet is it is corporate policy and it is being enforced about as well as breakfast for Gold and Diamonds! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Stayed at Hilton Fremont/Newark last week, and the front desk did ask to see Driver Lic. when handed over Hhonors card, Freq flier card, and CC. First time being asked since 9/11. So, maybe they are doing something new??

Four stays this month so far (three in DC area, if that would matter). My experience is exactly the same as MIKESILV's. Gave my HHonors card, airline card and credit card, and not even once was I asked to show any form of ID.

I thought it was me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I've been asked to show ID (driver's license or passport) at each Hilton property that I've checked into so far this year.

That's been:
Hilton (O'Hare)
Hampton Inn (Bloomington, IL)
Homewood Suites (Texas)

but, maybe it is for HHonors. So far I've been upgraded at the Hilton twice to a suite and got the breakfast certificates (GOLD)

Take care

Hmmmmmmm. Nine nice (actually 8) different stays, 3 countries, 2 name misspellings and never once was I asked for more than "And how will you be paying for that, sir?". I gotta breakfast certs every time too (with 4 name misspellings). Drink certs 4 outta 4.

I guess I must just look honest ,and I hope we dont have to start removing our shoes at the front desk.

MisterNice

Louisville, Indy, Baaltimore, Phily, Tampa, Orlando, Ocala, OHare, Raleigh, Wilmington, NYC and several more....NONE asked for photo

[This message has been edited by mikey1003 (edited 01-19-2002).]

I've been asked for an ID several times since September at Hilton properties, but not all the time. I think several times I just handed it over after walking in without being asked, so I don't know if they wanted it or not.

Things have changed, I really don't see what the big deal about it is, just hand them the ID when you are checking in and be on your way.

My response would be, "I'm sorry, but I am not driving on this trip so I left my license at home. Now, do you have an upgrade available?"

Just what does this ID request at Hilton or anywhere else have to do with the war against terror. Are they going to match your ID against a "don't rent to these guys list"?

I have stayed at two Hiltons since september,

Hilton Berlin and Hilton Boston Back Bay over the new year period. I have just handed over my HHonors card,credit card and Virgin FC card. I have not beekn asked for any other form of ID ( of course I've got my passport with me since I'm out of the UK)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cordelli:
Things have changed, I really don't see what the big deal about it is, just hand them the ID when you are checking in and be on your way. </font>

Correct me if I am wrong but the original poster did say TWO pieces of Govt issued ID
does everybody run around with two photo ids ???.
The only two I have are my DL and passport
and I sure as hell arent going to be showing my passport to rent a domestic hotel room.
Mike

I have a college ID from a couple of years ago .. I went to a state school, so does that count for a 2nd gov't issued photo ID ?? =)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by pointman:
My response would be, "I'm sorry, but I am not driving on this trip so I left my license at home. Now, do you have an upgrade available?"
</font>

No ID? That leaves out flying, driving and the train. Maybe you came by bus? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by drtravels:
No ID? That leaves out flying, driving and the train. Maybe you came by bus? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

</font>

May be he hitchhiked ?



------------------
"A Southwest line never gets longer, It only gets wider"

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by MIKESILV:
Correct me if I am wrong but the original poster did say TWO pieces of Govt issued ID
does everybody run around with two photo ids ???.
</font>


I skipped over that part because it's not been my experience that they ask for two government issued ID's. I think they may have asked for two ID's one of which was government, but almost nobody carries two ID's with them.

I think the reason they are asking is the huge what if somethind did happen, so they can trace your path like they did the guys that drove from Boston to Portland the night before the 11th to hijack the plane.

I've been asked for ID twice recently -- at the SEA DT, which has a sign on the wall saying that ID is required at check-in, and also when I checked in for the Las Vegas Hilton at the McCarran Airport Park Place counter. I don't mind them asking for one ID, but a request for 2 pieces would definitely be out of line unless they had forewarned me when I made my reservation.

Since Sept., I have stayed at Hilton-Tulsa in Oct., ES-Philly in Dec., Hampton in Richmond AND DT-Houston in January and did not have to show ID.
I would have been shocked if I would have had to, but I have always wondered why
credit cards are accepted without verification of person's ID, which I think makes sense. It protects hotel and customer.

I think they are lying...

I have stayed many Hilton Properties after 9/11 and never was asked for photo IDs.
I usually just gave them my credit card and Hilton Diamond card when check-in.

------------------
mailto:ahfang@earthlink.netahfang@earthlink.net</A>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by exsato:
Since Sept., I have stayed at Hilton-Tulsa in Oct., ES-Philly in Dec., Hampton in Richmond AND DT-Houston in January and did not have to show ID.
I would have been shocked if I would have had to, but I have always wondered why
credit cards are accepted without verification of person's ID, which I think makes sense. It protects hotel and customer.
</font>

Identification cannot be required for the acceptance of a credit card, nor can a phone number. The signature match is the identification. You do not want someone who has your credit card number to have your driver's license number (or other ID number) as well; it would facilitate identity theft.

Doakes

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by exsato:
Since Sept., I have stayed at Hilton-Tulsa in Oct., ES-Philly in Dec., Hampton in Richmond AND DT-Houston in January and did not have to show ID.
I would have been shocked if I would have had to, but I have always wondered why
credit cards are accepted without verification of person's ID, which I think makes sense. It protects hotel and customer.
</font>

Identification cannot be required for the acceptance of a credit card, nor can a phone number. The signature match is the identification. You do not want someone who has your credit card number to have your driver's license number (or other ID number) as well; it would facilitate identity theft.

Doakes

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by JoeDoakes:
Identification cannot be required for the acceptance of a credit card, nor can a phone number. </font>

That isn't correct. You can not RECORD any personal identicication number either on the credit card slip, or anyplace else, but you are perfectly within the law to request to see some form of identification before accepting a credit card to make sure the person presenting the card is actually the person who the card was isued to. There are circumstances where you can record personal information, but that wouldn't happen at a hotel.

Here is the text from one state's law on this under the you may rules:

You May Require production of and examine (but not record) such personal identification as a driver's license, employer identification or insurance identification card.



So they have every right to ask for the identification, but can not record any of it. I don't believe any state makes it illegal to just ask for the information.

While shopping down in San Diego recently I was surprised at how many stores and restaurants asked to see photo ID before they would accept my credit card. When I hesitated at the first place, they said that they did not allow purchases with credit cards without checking ID, period. I made sure that they kept my ID out where I could see it and that they didn't write anything down from it.

So if some hotels want to do the same thing, I'm OK with it. When you think about, what could a hotel's "ulterior motive" be in asking for ID? If it helps prevent fraudulent use of credit cards, so much the better for all of us. And if they're just making sure that I really am the HH Gold member on the card before they give me breakfast coupons or whatever, fine with me.

In November, I stayed at the Double Tree, Mission Valley, SAN. They required a photo ID on check in.

It was written:

While shopping down in San Diego recently I was surprised at how many stores and restaurants asked to see photo ID before they would accept my credit card. When I hesitated at the first place, they said that they did not allow purchases with credit cards without checking ID, period.

My reply:

In order to resolve the validity of the request you need to check the fine print of your credit card agreement. For instance Master Card does not allow a merchant to ask for additonal identification; that is an absolute.

This is in large part for your protection. IMHO, you are asking for trouble if you disclose your driver license to an employee. One needs to realize that with a credit card number, address and date of birth a emplyee intent on down streaming credit information to someone with nefarious intentions is well on the way to successfully defrauding you and the credit card company. For similar reasons it is fool hardy to write account number son checks used to pay credit card bills. Think of it this way, that 6.00 and hour bank teller already can see your Social Security number, date of birth, probably your mothers maiden name, you don't need to contribute your credit card info to the mix.

It was written:

I made sure that they kept my ID out where I could see it and that they didn't write anything down from it.

My reply:

I am sure most criminals are smiling at this. I am always amazed how those with a criminal bend could not remember that Columbus landed in America in 1492 when in high school but could memorize 16 didgit credit card numbers, driver license numbers and addresses at a glance. : )

It was written:

So if some hotels want to do the same thing, I'm OK with it. When you think about, what could a hotel's "ulterior motive"

My reply:

I have no idea what the hotels motivations are, but I am always leary of the motives of employees. That is not to say that I believe very many have maliginant intentions, just that in the past I had to adjust insurance claims for credit ripoffs and frequently traced it back to employees of banks, hotels, and retail establishments.

At any rate, just a few thoughts to the wary...

Live large,

TFB

be in asking for ID? If it helps prevent fraudulent use of credit cards, so much the better for all of us. And if they're just making sure that I really am the HH Gold member on the card before they give me breakfast coupons or whatever, fine with me.

Fluffy Bunny: Have you thought of asking Oliver Stone for a job? Welcome to Flyertalk. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The hotel employee who asks to see my photo ID already has access to my reservation, which has my name, address, phone number, fax number, and whatever other info is in my Hilton Honors profile. I made the choice to share this info with HH for convenience. My risk.

I do check my credit report and protect myself in other respects. When we show our ID at the airport, aren't we showing it to people who could pull off the same schemes you describe? It all boils down to what each of us is willing to put up with. If you don't want to show your ID at the airport, don't fly. If you don't want to show your ID at a hotel, don't stay there. Your choice. Or if you feel strongly enough about it to write the powers that be to try to get things changed, please do. I don't hesitate to put pencil to paper when I don't like the way I'm being treated. To each his/her own.

(edited to add that I have checked with Visa in the past and have been told that it's OK with them if merchants check for ID.)

[This message has been edited by Westcoaster (edited 01-21-2002).]

It was written:

Fluffy Bunny: Have you thought of asking Oliver Stone for a job?

My reply:

I have no idea who Oliver Stone is; I assume this is some form of humor based on endemic the colloquial culture I do not subscribe to.

WestCoaster also wrote:

Welcome to Flyertalk.

My reply:

Thank you very much for the welcome.

WestCoaster wrote:

The hotel employee who asks to see my photo ID already has access to my reservation, which has my name, address, phone number, fax number, and whatever other info is in my Hilton Honors profile. I made the choice to share this info with HH for convenience. My risk.

My reply:

You are correct; you assumed a risk. I use a P.O. box, the credit card that is used to reserve my auto, hotel is different than the one that is actually used to settle the account. In other words if a charge shows up on my reservation card it is an indicator a fraud, as that account always should have a zero balance.

Remember many states use your social security number as your driver’s license number. Other states unfortunately print your social security numbers on your driver’s license. Some, fortunately either allow you to opt out or use something other than your social security number.
Just remember that social security number, date of birth, and drivers license information is a powerful combination.

My experience has been that no one cares about this sort of thing until they have been a victim of identity theft; unfortunately from a social/cultural view, as a whole, people seem to enjoy making sport of those who annunciate warnings to others. We live in a very unusual time of cultural flux.

Westcoaster also wrote:

When we show our ID at the airport, aren't we showing it to people who could pull off the same schemes you describe?

My reply:

The security screeners should have zero access to your private information. If you are referring to airline attendants at check in, do what I do…I have separate ids…one shows my name and picture, the other parts are covered with black electrical tape.

Westcoaster wrote:

If you don't want to show your ID at the airport, don't fly. If you don't want to show your ID at a hotel, don't stay there. Your choice. Or if you feel strongly enough about it to write the powers that be to try to get things changed, please do.

My reply:

I see no reason why I should not fly or stay at hotels simply because I expect businesses to adhere to the rules of their credit card provider. And I do not see why I should put my family at financial risk so that someone else’s business may prosper.

I show and ID when it necessary and mutually beneficial. If you want an ID I am happy to show you one that has financial information blocked out…name and photo will do for the purpose of establishing identity.

It was also written:

(edited to add that I have checked with Visa in the past and have been told that it's OK with them if merchants check for ID.)

My reply:

Which is why I use Mastercard.
I do not believe it appropriate to get into a financial lecture in this forum, so I’ll make my comments brief. “Credit” is not a true “medium of exchange”. Credit Card issuers and merchants are subject to risk. For that risk the credit card issuer charges the merchant a premium to provide credit services. It is incumbent on the credit card issuer to perform due diligence when screening applicants. By lobbying Congress to change credit laws, bankruptcy laws, and allowing merchants to require ID, the credit card companies are trying to earn an abnormal profit. Smart merchants who check for ID and do business with companies that allow ID’s to be checked should ask for a reduction in their transaction cost as they have eliminated a portion of the risk to the credit card issuer.

For the rest of you, it might behoove you to make a “net” stop at http://www.privacyrights.org. The link to FACTS may prove illuminating. In addition the Social Security administrations site www.ss (http://www.ss) and review their suggestions for safe guarding your Social Security number and information of identity theft.

All the best,

TFB

It is clear that we have strong feelings about this subject. I would sure like to know Hilton's official policy. I can't recall ever showing my ID at any hotel, regardless of brand. Helen123, I stayed at the same Hilton Newark/Fremont 2 weeks ago and they did not ask for my ID. Once again, inconsistent even at the same property. Adam, help please? A little off topic but close enough to the need for identity theme, I never show my airline FF card when checking in as many of you are reporting here. Was told they pick the necessary info from my Hhonors profile. All miles have always posted. Most of my reservations are made on-line by me, so maybe that's the difference. I do like to present my Hhonors Gold card to reinforce my status. Get a positive reaction about half the time and no reaction the rest. Can't wait to see how that goes when presenting a Diamond later this year.

BTW, I'll use this post to say THANK YOU to many many here. I have picked up tons of useful info from your posts over the past few months. I have been able to share a lot of it with my co workers so I am elite in that arena as well. Great example was the EWRDC promo that I turned about 15 people on to. Hilton did all right too since most of these folks converted from other programs. Once agin, THANK YOU fellow FTRs!!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by the.fluffy.bunny:

In order to resolve the validity of the request you need to check the fine print of your credit card agreement. For instance Master Card does not allow a merchant to ask for additonal identification; that is an absolute. </font>

Nope. Mastercard only prohibits stores that display their logo from asking for identification for using a mastercard. Many merchants get around it by not displaying the mastercard logo, instead just having a sign they accept MasterCard, Visa, and Discover.

I don't believe a single verchant has ever had their ability to use masterCard pulled because they asked for identification.

It was written:

Nope. Mastercard only prohibits stores that display their logo from asking for identification for using a mastercard.

My reply:

What you state may be correct. All I know is what Mastercard told me, and that they have a form dedicated to this allegation.

The Walmart in my city required ID, which I refused. Mastercard became involved and now that Walmart has changed their policy.

However that does not dispute your point. They had a MasterCard logo on their credit card scanner.

Wishing you the best of what life may bring...

TFB

The hotels are asking for this intrusion into one's privacy for one reason, to protect themselves. They want information to fight against a chargeback and a way to go after someone for collections if nec or if they trash the room, etc.
It's funny that they claim to be so concerned about guarding against credit fraud yet they fail to actually do the one thing which they are supposed to do and which would limit their own liability to zero, CHECK SIGNATURES. That's why I balk when the want my ID. It's none of their business. If they follow their merchant agreement, then the CC company will pay them. They shouldn't be concerned about my address, dob, what state I live in, how old i am, or anything else.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cordelli:
Nope. Mastercard only prohibits stores that display their logo from asking for identification for using a mastercard. Many merchants get around it by not displaying the mastercard logo, instead just having a sign they accept MasterCard, Visa, and Discover.

I don't believe a single verchant has ever had their ability to use masterCard pulled because they asked for identification.

</font>

OK, this topic really got me going. Cordelli, you have always provided good information and I conclude my earlier response may have been overarching. My research is leading me to believe the ultimate answer may lie in state law. I went to Fluffy Bunny's suggested privacy website but it is all based on California law.

I do believe my earlier posting was correct based on my state's laws, but I came to realize that could be irrelevant from an FT perspective since so many of us make large purchases outside our home states and even our home countries.

Cordelli, can you provide some further information or links to clarify what has been said about MC vs VISA? I normally use MC and that may be where I might be going astray in my thinking. It really scares me to think merchants can ask to see my ID but not write it down; I have a photographic memory for numbers so I assume many other people do as well. I have never yet shown my ID with a credit card, and have seldom been asked. When asked I have always refused, and normally the clerk backs down, but a few times I had to choose to take my business elsewhere. However, when checking into a hotel in some unknown location, I might not be willing to risk taking such a firm stand.

I did a Google search but didn't come up with anything helpful.

Doakes

In a previous job I held, there were eight of us in my department. All of us were out of town half the month. We all had cards that we only used at hotels. In a year's time, four of us had fraudulant charges on these cards after using them at hotels.
Now, I'm not knocking hotels here, the same thing can happen at any merchant. However, that's no reason to give them your private info. By the way, it is a driver's license. There is no law requiring you to have identification everywhere you go. You don't have to show identity papers at Walmart or anywhere else. Your CC, along with your signature, is your ID as far as your transaction with the merchant is concerned. This is per the agreement between card and merchant.

My wife wrote "Ask for ID" in the signature box in her credit cards several years ago. She has been asked for ID less than 5% of the time. I sincerely doubt that the majority of sales clerks make an effort to verify your signature on the sales draft against the back of your card.

In New Jersey, driver's license photos are available, but they aren't required by the state.

Fortunately I live in a gun friendly state so when people ask for my Picture ID, I sometimes show them my state issued permit to carry concealed weapons (CCW). It's the size of a drivers license, has my photo, and is most definitely state issued. If I show some attitude as I show the ID -- it universally garners a "Thank you Sir!" and gets me through the transaction quickly.

(For the record: Notice I said that I show the ID -- of course I would NEVER allow them a peek at the weapon. That would be immoral, illegal, and also quite stupid.)

Edited to add: CCW's are pretty common in AK, but in places like CA they tend to carry a bit more intimidating power.

[This message has been edited by eastwest (edited 01-27-2002).]

Apologize for the double post but thought I would add an interesting link (since this thread is turning into a discussion about ID's in a general sense)

"A Volusia County woman said that she was denied a driver's license because of she would not show her face for her driver's license photo . . . (DMV) clerk demanded that she remove her religious head covering to take a picture for a new driver's license. However, the request to take take off the garment violated her religious beliefs . . . "For Muslim women, that's like going out naked in front of strangers, and we are both practicing Muslims," Gamim Muhammad, Najat Muhammad's husband, said.

http://www.mycfnow.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-120645420020125-080110.html

&gt;&gt;&gt;That isn't correct.
&gt;&gt;So they have every right to ask for the identification, but can not record any of it. I don't believe any state makes it illegal to just ask for the information.

As a former employee of one of the Big Two, I can say that the state laws and legality issues do not enter into this. Rather, the by-laws of VISA and MasterCard state that no ID to the merchant is necessary, and no requests for same shall be made.

If a merchant is in violation of VISA or MasterCard by-laws, notify your card issuing company, who will notify the credit card people, who will then notify the merchant bank who will notify the merchant.

Merchant policies will often flagrantly violate this rule that's been in effect forever.

That being said, I remember one former colleague who refused to show a photo ID after pumping gas. The attendant called the cops. After lots of hassle, the colleague, entirely within his rights, produced his ID.

The production of an ID is not for 'your protection,' as the merchant may claim. You are already protected. The ID is for the merchant's own protection, so that they think they have someone to track down in case the charge is denied.

In short, it's not really the merchant's business. When the Radio Shack clerks asks me for my address, when the Dick's Sporting Goods clerk asks me for my zip code, I make up the first thing that comes to mind. My little token skirmish in the war for privacy, since it does little good to argue with an employee who is doing what she's told, and I imagine there are a couple dozen ronins in their system by now.

The Sh*r*t*n Suites at Key West asked me for photo ID last week. I asked why.

It was to verify my credit card, they said. No matter that they had my reservation, credit card number and SPG info on file. I (jokingly, I hope) suggested it was in case I hi-jacked the room and took it with me on departure. No, it was also St*rw**d corporate policy, they said.

However, the two other parties checking in at the same time were NOT asked for photo ID. Was I being specially selected, I asked the Front Desk Manager. No, one of the employees was carrying out instructions, the other not.

I didn't think of NOT showing photo ID, so don't knowe what my refusal would have brought. I guess I could have shown them my UK drivers license. It was good enough for Avis, so should be good enough for Sh*r*ton? Oh, it doesn't have a photo!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by isogyre:
My wife wrote "Ask for ID" in the signature box in her credit cards several years ago. She has been asked for ID less than 5% of the time. I sincerely doubt that the majority of sales clerks make an effort to verify your signature on the sales draft against the back of your card.</font>

It also makes the credit card invalid. "Ask for ID" or "See ID" is not a valid signature according to every bank I've ever dealt with in my many years of retail - most of them state the card is invalid unless properly signed.

Mike

The problem here is that we don't know if the request from the hotel is to identify the guest or to make sure the credit card belongs to the guest. Do people prepaying, or people paying cash get asked for ID's at the hotels asking for ID's? I bet they do, as I would guess the hotel has been asked to ask for ID's for all guests, not just those paying by credit card.

The rules that Mastercard and Visa have are completly ignored by merchants out there. Many people don't sign their credit cards, and use a second ID to show their signature. See it all the time, though don't see how that helps them, if I took their card I'd sign it and the signature would then be a perfect match.

Many merchants ask for ID's with credit cards (hell, some even have signs posted saying they will), and I don't think either Visa or Mastercard is willing to go after all them all and tell them not to.

Many merchants don't give a care in the world what the signature on the card looks like, I have never had the grocery store, for example, ever touch the card once I've swiped it in the reader. Again, there isn't any signature match at all, as they have never even seen the card.

So while people can quote all the MasterCard and Visa rules, they don't apply in real life, nor do we even know if this Photo ID thing that some Hiltons have started doing has anything at all to do with paying by credit card.

It was written:

So while people can quote all the MasterCard and Visa rules, they don't apply in real life, nor do we even know if this Photo ID thing that some Hiltons have started doing has anything at all to do with paying by credit card.

My reply:

They apply if you chose to make them apply. simply stated I make merchants follow the rules. If they chose not to, I simply take my business elsewhere.

So while they may not apply in your "real life" they certainly apply in the "alternate" reality I live in.

Wishing all of you the bes tof wha tlife may bring,

TFB

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cordelli:
Many people don't sign their credit cards, and use a second ID to show their signature. See it all the time, though don't see how that helps them, if I took their card I'd sign it and the signature would then be a perfect match.</font>

My thinking is that if they have my ID and my credit card, it doesn't matter if I've signed it or not - the thief will be able to use the card until I report it stolen.

If they ONLY have my credit card, but not my ID, then at least I have a chance of the merchant remembering to ask for the ID if the card isn't signed... which may foil the thief..

So I'm one of the stupid ones who don't sign their credit cards...

And when you report it stolen and dispute all the charges, the CC company will have you fill out an affidavit complete with signature samples and your statement that the card was signed on the back, as required. I don't think they will be happy with your plan.