Finnair Plus - resentment against Finnair in India?

Please see below report extract from the Iimes of India It is causing some resentment against Finnair. Lots of people have Schengen visas on older passports (including myself) but we never faced any problems to date in France Germany Sweden Spain... Finland is entitled to its exceptionalism, but this pedantic (in my view) attitude causes pointless negative views about Finnair?

Posted here for your information and also responses/opinions. No acrimony intended.


Passport? Failport!Jug Suraiya
21 June 2011, 09:19 PM IST


When is a passport not a pass-port but a fail-port? When it's an Indian passport. Bunny and i discovered this when we recently tried to make a trip to Finland, which is aggressively marketing itself in India as a tourist destination. About to board the Finnair flight from Heathrow, London, to Helsinki, Bunny was stopped by an airline supervisor who said that Bunny's paperwork was not in order; she couldn't get on the plane. The passport was valid; the Schengen visa was valid. The problem? The visa, though valid, was not on the new passport but on the old passport, stapled onto the new one. Finnish immigration insisted that the visa must be on the passport in current use.

We protested that the US and the UK do not insist on this. Nor do other Schengen countries. Often passports have to be supplemented by new booklets as pages run out in the old one. The supervisor was adamant. Finland did not accept visas unless they were on the same passport booklet. In which case, as Finland was the exception to the Schengen rule, was it not the responsibility of Finnair, the national carrier, to inform passengers at the time of ticket sale?

But there were no arguments to be made. Bunny couldn't enter Finland, despite the fact that we had a return flight and prepaid hotel bookings in that country, all non-refundable. What was worse than the financial loss was the humiliation. Not a personal humiliation, but the humiliation of being an Indian citizen, holding an Indian passport. Because the real problem was Bunny's Indian passport, which immediately made her suspect as a potential illegal immigrant.

Please see below report extract from the Iimes of India It is causing some resentment against Finnair. Lots of people have Schengen visas on older passports (including myself) but we never faced any problems to date in France Germany Sweden Spain... Finland is entitled to its exceptionalism, but this pedantic (in my view) attitude causes pointless negative views about Finnair?

Posted here for your information and also responses/opinions. No acrimony intended.


Passport? Failport!Jug Suraiya
21 June 2011, 09:19 PM IST


When is a passport not a pass-port but a fail-port? When it's an Indian passport. Bunny and i discovered this when we recently tried to make a trip to Finland, which is aggressively marketing itself in India as a tourist destination. About to board the Finnair flight from Heathrow, London, to Helsinki, Bunny was stopped by an airline supervisor who said that Bunny's paperwork was not in order; she couldn't get on the plane. The passport was valid; the Schengen visa was valid. The problem? The visa, though valid, was not on the new passport but on the old passport, stapled onto the new one. Finnish immigration insisted that the visa must be on the passport in current use.

We protested that the US and the UK do not insist on this. Nor do other Schengen countries. Often passports have to be supplemented by new booklets as pages run out in the old one. The supervisor was adamant. Finland did not accept visas unless they were on the same passport booklet. In which case, as Finland was the exception to the Schengen rule, was it not the responsibility of Finnair, the national carrier, to inform passengers at the time of ticket sale?

But there were no arguments to be made. Bunny couldn't enter Finland, despite the fact that we had a return flight and prepaid hotel bookings in that country, all non-refundable. What was worse than the financial loss was the humiliation. Not a personal humiliation, but the humiliation of being an Indian citizen, holding an Indian passport. Because the real problem was Bunny's Indian passport, which immediately made her suspect as a potential illegal immigrant.
Hmm wait. She had an old passport that was no longer valid, but a valid visa there, and a new passport without a visa?
Then she was traveling without a valid schengen visa.

If she had 2 valid passports with other carrying the schengen visa, then the airline supervisor made a mistake, immigration would've let him in no problem. Many people carry multiple passports.

Hmm wait. She had an old passport that was no longer valid, but a valid visa there, and a new passport without a visa?
Then she was traveling without a valid schengen visa.

If she had 2 valid passports with other carrying the schengen visa, then the airline supervisor made a mistake, immigration would've let him in no problem. Many people carry multiple passports.

No shewas the first case you write, above.


The interesting thing is that the Finnish embassy in new delhi has now issued a clarification (after all the fuss and resentment) saying that vaklid visas on expired passports will now be accepted as long as the pax is in possession of a valid passport and is carrying the expired passport with a valid visa! This has always been the case with other Schengen countries AFAIK (Ive used mine to enter Germany only last month)

I

No shewas the first case you write, above.


The interesting thing is that the Finnish embassy in new delhi has now issued a clarification (after all the fuss and resentment) saying that vaklid visas on expired passports will now be accepted as long as the pax is in possession of a valid passport and is carrying the expired passport with a valid visa! This has always been the case with other Schengen countries AFAIK (Ive used mine to enter Germany only last month)

I
Ok, I have a Finnish passport so I'm not 100% sure, but I was under the impression that your visa can only be valid for as long as your passport is?

Ok, I have a Finnish passport so I'm not 100% sure, but I was under the impression that your visa can only be valid for as long as your passport is?

I think if you have a long term visa and you carry your passorts in conjunction its Ok for most countries. ANd I know its OK for USA and UK and recently Germany. I guess thats why the resentment is there in india, because people are used to travelling with long term visas on old passports..

I think if you have a long term visa and you carry your passorts in conjunction its Ok for most countries. ANd I know its OK for USA and UK and recently Germany. I guess thats why the resentment is there in india, because people are used to travelling with long term visas on old passports..
Can you really get an US visa thats valid for longer than what your passport is valid?

Can you really get an US visa thats valid for longer than what your passport is valid?

Apparently you can.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/questions/questions_1253.html#7

But for us Visa Waivers, ESTA is valid only as long as the passport is. I detect unfair treatment.

I understand OP's resentment towards the Finnish authorities' interpretation of Schengen rules, which apparently were in error, as evidenced by the Embassy's "clarification", but how exactly is this Finnair's fault?

Once a passport expires and a new passport from the same country is received. The old passport is invalid. ALL visas or other stamps that are still valid must be transferred by the individual to the new passport. This is the passenger's responsibility. Immigration matter pre-flight and not an issue AY can fix at check-in. You should have gone to the proper authority and had the visa transferred and get rid of your clipped original passport.


Please see below report extract from the Iimes of India It is causing some resentment against Finnair. Lots of people have Schengen visas on older passports (including myself) but we never faced any problems to date in France Germany Sweden Spain... Finland is entitled to its exceptionalism, but this pedantic (in my view) attitude causes pointless negative views about Finnair?

Posted here for your information and also responses/opinions. No acrimony intended.


Passport? Failport!Jug Suraiya
21 June 2011, 09:19 PM IST


When is a passport not a pass-port but a fail-port? When it's an Indian passport. Bunny and i discovered this when we recently tried to make a trip to Finland, which is aggressively marketing itself in India as a tourist destination. About to board the Finnair flight from Heathrow, London, to Helsinki, Bunny was stopped by an airline supervisor who said that Bunny's paperwork was not in order; she couldn't get on the plane. The passport was valid; the Schengen visa was valid. The problem? The visa, though valid, was not on the new passport but on the old passport, stapled onto the new one. Finnish immigration insisted that the visa must be on the passport in current use.

We protested that the US and the UK do not insist on this. Nor do other Schengen countries. Often passports have to be supplemented by new booklets as pages run out in the old one. The supervisor was adamant. Finland did not accept visas unless they were on the same passport booklet. In which case, as Finland was the exception to the Schengen rule, was it not the responsibility of Finnair, the national carrier, to inform passengers at the time of ticket sale?

But there were no arguments to be made. Bunny couldn't enter Finland, despite the fact that we had a return flight and prepaid hotel bookings in that country, all non-refundable. What was worse than the financial loss was the humiliation. Not a personal humiliation, but the humiliation of being an Indian citizen, holding an Indian passport. Because the real problem was Bunny's Indian passport, which immediately made her suspect as a potential illegal immigrant.

Can you really get an US visa thats valid for longer than what your passport is valid?

Yes in fact they are issued for ten years irrespective of validity of passport

Apparently you can.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/questions/questions_1253.html#7

But for us Visa Waivers, ESTA is valid only as long as the passport is. I detect unfair treatment.

I understand OP's resentment towards the Finnish authorities' interpretation of Schengen rules, which apparently were in error, as evidenced by the Embassy's "clarification", but how exactly is this Finnair's fault?

Not my resentment, I'm just reporting....

From my recent experience, India itself charges a fee to transfer an Indian Visa from an old passport to a new one. So I assume they require the same the Indians are criticizing the Finns for :confused:

Once a passport expires and a new passport from the same country is received. The old passport is invalid. ALL visas or other stamps that are still valid must be transferred by the individual to the new passport. This is the passenger's responsibility. Immigration matter pre-flight and not an issue AY can fix at check-in. You should have gone to the proper authority and had the visa transferred and get rid of your clipped original passport.

From the other posts here I assume you realize, as the Finnish embassy has belatedly done, that what you assert is not a universal global truth but a Finland specific one. And for that reason I'd be careful not to tell people what they should have done with their expired passports :) it's sort of thing that hardly makes global friends...


I don't know if you are speaking for AY or as an AY FTer in any capacity? It sounds like you are to me but I'm probably mistaken?

From my recent experience, India itself charges a fee to transfer an Indian Visa from an old passport to a new one. So I assume they require the same the Indians are criticizing the Finns for :confused:

Interesting point..... I'll check with India and get back on whether this is compulsory......

Very few countries allow you to have 2 valid passports. Finland does. When my visas, that often are issued max for 1 year, often only for few months or even days, depending on the country, are expired, there is no way to transfer visas to an other passport. Tuff luck.
The fact is that a lot of people try to enter to schengen area from India with fake papers. Finland has always wanted to obey rules and regulations, therefore they check paper validity carefully. It is travellers responsibility to check what papers are needed, not assuming but checking, before departure.

It seems there have been some issues with pax from DEL. The Helsinki Times in June:

"Finland is introducing new measures to combat illegal immigration and human trafficking from India. In July, the Finnish embassy in New Delhi will get a new staff member who will verify the authenticity of documents submitted by visa and residence permit applicants.

Illegal immigration from India to Finland is on the rise, and sometimes Finland is used as an entry point to Europe as a whole."

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/finland-in-the-world-press/15711-finland-takes-steps-against-illegal-immigration-from-india.html

Similar issues have been discussed on this board before.

Basically the Finnish border guards, a paramilitary unit, are <redacted> from small towns and villages from the countryside. Some of them with very poor foreign language skills for example. These fellows are home in nature, skiing and hiking along the forests on the border to Russia. They should never have been deployed at major airports, those should be handled by police officers with more "city smarts".

Can you really get an US visa thats valid for longer than what your passport is valid?

Yes, For sure.

US generally gives visas for 10 years, and you are allowed to carry it in an expired passport (in conjunction with a valid passport)

Similar issues have been discussed on this board before.

Basically the Finnish border guards, a paramilitary unit, are rednecks from small towns and villages from the countryside. Some of them with very poor foreign language skills for example. These fellows are home in nature, skiing and hiking along the forests on the border to Russia. They should never have been deployed at major airports, those should be handled by police officers with more "city smarts".

I think, this is an overt generalization. In Finland, there are much less differences among the general population in the language skills or social skills in people at their 40´s or younger than in many other countries even within the EU. Thanks to our comprehensive primary and secondary school system. There is a need to be able to speak English, Finnish, and Swedish. Of course, every basket of apples may contain some rotten ones. Disputing unjustified decisions and complaining about bad behavior of the civil servants is also possible - whenever you feel having been treated badly.

Try to enter US or UK speaking Finnish or Swahili... I do not think, that would be of great help.

Similar issues have been discussed on this board before.

Basically the Finnish border guards, a paramilitary unit, are <redacted> s from small towns and villages from the countryside. Some of them with very poor foreign language skills for example. These fellows are home in nature, skiing and hiking along the forests on the border to Russia. They should never have been deployed at major airports, those should be handled by police officers with more "city smarts".

I don't know whether this is true or not, but that was not the issue here. The OP didn't make it to the Finnish border, but was stopped in LHR.

Oh my, what a thread again. I agree that Finnish boarder controllers are rude or strict but there is a reason because Finland is in outer boarder of Schengen securing other Schengen countries also. I agree ground staff of AY are not the most knowledgeable in visa issues. But boarder controllers all around the globe are quite misserable. I recently flew to India, bought on arrival visa and no one took a even a look of my passport in passport check. But when exiting the country boarder controller didn't recognize visa stamps of his own country. More of this in my TR later.

Oh my, what a thread again. I agree that Finnish boarder controllers are rude or strict but there is a reason because Finland is in outer boarder of Schengen securing other Schengen countries also. I agree ground staff of AY are not the most knowledgeable in visa issues. But boarder controllers all around the globe are quite misserable. I recently flew to India, bought on arrival visa and no one took a even a look of my passport in passport check. But when exiting the country boarder controller didn't recognize visa stamps of his own country. More of this in my TR later.

Indian border guards are <redacted> and <redacted>. But you don't get deplaned by them.
also the visa on arrival is a privilege given to very few countries, one of which is Finland because of historic good relations. Clearly that is changing, from what I read here. The point is that with a country of one billion people you need to look at the human being you are talking to and exercise discretion...is the person likely to be an illegal immigrant, with a valid 10 year Schengen visa and exiting the UK?.. Mindless application of rules is very bad foreign policy with a rising power that everyone wants to do business with, it's just foolish, IMO

Indian border guards are ignorant and ridiculous. But you don't get deplaned by them.
also the visa on arrival is a privilege given to very few countries, one of which is Finland because of historic good relations. Clearly that is changing, from what I read here. The point is that with a country of one billion people you need to look at the human being you are talking to and exercise discretion...is the person likely to be an illegal immigrant, with a valid 10 year Schengen visa and exiting the UK?.. Mindless application of rules is very bad foreign policy with a rising power that everyone wants to do business with, it's just foolish, IMO

I do not think single cases of misinterpretation of immigration rules would have any effect on Indian-Finnish/EU relationships :rolleyes:...

<redacted>

Indian border guards are ignorant and ridiculous. But you don't get deplaned by them.
also the visa on arrival is a privilege given to very few countries, one of which is Finland because of historic good relations. Clearly that is changing, from what I read here. The point is that with a country of one billion people you need to look at the human being you are talking to and exercise discretion...is the person likely to be an illegal immigrant, with a valid 10 year Schengen visa and exiting the UK?.. Mindless application of rules is very bad foreign policy with a rising power that everyone wants to do business with, it's just foolish, IMO

But you didn't get deplaned by Finnish border guards, but rather on-ground personnel (AY, BA, something else?) in LHR, if I understood the original post correctly.

I happen to think "mindless" i.e. non-discriminatory application of rules is very sensible. However, in this case somebody somewhere had given the people in LHR wrong information, or the information given was interpreted wrongly. It sucks, but I find it quite amusing to think that some grand foreign policy gesture is involved.

A year ago a Finnish friend of mine tried to fly to the US via LHR. He had lived in the US before, and therefore had had a green card. The BA personnel in LHR told him that he needs to have the green card with him, even if he is just visiting the US now. This is not the US policy, which was later confirmed by the Consulate Section of the US Embassy in Helsinki. In any case, my friend was de-planed and had to get the next flight back to Helsinki. This sucks, but I don't think anyone was trying to show the uppity Finns their place in the grand scheme of things.

But you didn't get deplaned by Finnish border guards, but rather on-ground personnel (AY, BA, something else?) in LHR, if I understood the original post correctly.

I happen to think "mindless" i.e. non-discriminatory application of rules is very sensible. However, in this case somebody somewhere had given the people in LHR wrong information, or the information given was interpreted wrongly. It sucks, but I find it quite amusing to think that some grand foreign policy gesture is involved.


A year ago a Finnish friend of mine tried to fly to the US via LHR. He had lived in the US before, and therefore had had a green card. The BA personnel in LHR told him that he needs to have the green card with him, even if he is just visiting the US now. This is not the US policy, which was later confirmed by
the Consulate Section of the US Embassy in Helsinki. In any case, my friend
was de-planed and had to get the next flight back to Helsinki. This sucks, but
I don't think anyone was trying to show the uppity Finns their place in the
grand scheme of things.

fair post I am not saying there is any deliberate foreign policy implication behind this, but just that it can impact perceptions. On whether discretion should be used to apply rules for the purposes intended I agree to disagree, but the argument is of course quite solid.

To all
Thanks for all the feedback and the tolerance and patience you have shown in helping my research on this, and your willingness to engage!

fair post I am not saying there is any deliberate foreign policy implication behind this, but just that it can impact perceptions. On whether discretion should be used to apply rules for the purposes intended I agree to disagree, but the argument is of course quite solid.

To all
Thanks for all the feedback and the tolerance and patience you have shown in helping my research on this, and your willingness to engage!

Hey, I learned something new on this thread, that's always cool. Let us know if you press the matter further, i.e. if you are reimbursed for the flights because of the mistake. My friend eventually got his money back from the BA, but it wasn't easy.

From my recent experience, India itself charges a fee to transfer an Indian Visa from an old passport to a new one. So I assume they require the same the Indians are criticizing the Finns for :confused:

It is not required to transfer the visa, but recommended.

https://indiavisa.travisaoutsourcing.com/faqs/faqs#transfer

This is an interesting topic, and one sure to stir up feelings and different points of view. That's fine - and even encouraged on FlyerTalk.

Unfortunately, airline employees are given some training, but may not know the fine points of immigration and visa law - probably every airline forum on FT has stories about people who were turfed out or denied boarding because of inadequate knowledge of these laws, and such an upsetting experience is bound to have some spillover in feelings when posting about them.

However, ad hominem, attacks on persons or groups with a broad brush, are examples of what is not encouraged or allowed on FlyerTalk. The parameters can be read here (http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php), in the FlyerTalk Rules / Terms of Service we all agreed to uphold and abide by when we signed up on FT.

Thank you,

JDiver, Senior Moderator

One relevant portion of the Rules:

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Hey, I learned something new on this thread, that's always cool. Let us know if you press the matter further, i.e. if you are reimbursed for the flights because of the mistake. My friend eventually got his money back from the BA, but it wasn't easy.

Thanks! It did not happen to me but to the wife of a senior journalist who wrote about it...that's what I posted I posted it to get opinions other than Indian ones (I am an Indian diplomat but I did it in my personal capacity) so as to do a more balanced view for this I did put the main arguments resonating in india across to get responses for which I thank everyone no offense I tended if any taken by anybody.....

I think, this is an overt generalization. In Finland, there are much less differences among the general population in the language skills or social skills in people at their 40´s or younger than in many other countries even within the EU. Thanks to our comprehensive primary and secondary school system. There is a need to be able to speak English, Finnish, and Swedish. Of course, every basket of apples may contain some rotten ones. Disputing unjustified decisions and complaining about bad behavior of the civil servants is also possible - whenever you feel having been treated badly.

Try to enter US or UK speaking Finnish or Swahili... I do not think, that would be of great help.

Well, I do know that several Finnish large corporations including Nokia have logged protests in the past on the pedantic attitude of both the Border Guards and visa staff at some consulates overseas.

Also, AFAIK, the Border Guards are pushing to end visa free cruises between Helsinki and St.Petersburg as they claim Russian nationals could use those to enter the Schengen area unauthorized. I mean the St.Pete - Helsinki - Stockholm - Tallinn - St.Pete roundtrips.

Might be best for all to send these chaps back to the deep forests where they belong to enjoy nature, fishing and hunting just like before.

Can you really get an US visa thats valid for longer than what your passport is valid?

Yes you can. I've travelled to the US with valid Finnish passport with the visa in my expired Finnish passport. Haven't tried this with two valid passports, though (which I've had on several occasions).

Cheers,
T.

Well, I do know that several Finnish large corporations including Nokia have logged protests in the past on the pedantic attitude of both the Border Guards and visa staff at some consulates overseas.

Also, AFAIK, the Border Guards are pushing to end visa free cruises between Helsinki and St.Petersburg as they claim Russian nationals could use those to enter the Schengen area unauthorized. I mean the St.Pete - Helsinki - Stockholm - Tallinn - St.Pete roundtrips.

Might be best for all to send these chaps back to the deep forests where they belong to enjoy nature, fishing and hunting just like before.

OT: What I have been reading, the Finnish Embassy in Moscow and the Consulate in St. Petersburg are among the most active within EU to grant Schengen visas for Russian citizens.

The acts of Finnish border control regarding those specific cruises have been investigated at EU level but the final verdict has not been cast yet. I do not catch the idea of visa free cruises to either direction. If visas are generally required and easy to obtain, why should there be loopholes like those? :confused:

Continuing OT: The cruises are not visa-free for Russians. And yes, Finland is clearly the most active country in Russia granting Schengen visas. More than a million per year, most (AFAIK) multi-entry visas.

Russians are pretty strict about entry as well, none of this visas in old passport business. I've had 4-5 one-year visas, now finally got a two-year visa.

From my recent experience, India itself charges a fee to transfer an Indian Visa from an old passport to a new one. So I assume they require the same the Indians are criticizing the Finns for :confused:

I have many hundreds of Indian entry and exit stamps in my US passports where those trips to India were done by presenting a current US passport (with no Indian visa) in conjunction with presentation of the expired US passports with a valid visa.

While I have later transferred the visas, I did the transfers as a matter of convenience since my expired US passports were going to be required for presentation and keep at the USG at periods of times when I would be traveling to India on another passport.

When having 3+ US passports -- some expired and some not -- all with valid visas for the same or different countries, transferring is often done more as a convenience than as party of any entry requirement by the receiving/host country/countries.

A visa being valid even after the expiration date of a passport is the case for many of my visas from a bunch of countries.

Once a passport expires and a new passport from the same country is received. The old passport is invalid. ALL visas or other stamps that are still valid must be transferred by the individual to the new passport. This is the passenger's responsibility. Immigration matter pre-flight and not an issue AY can fix at check-in. You should have gone to the proper authority and had the visa transferred and get rid of your clipped original passport.

My past experience proves another situation.

I have used the valid visa on my invalid passport to US, UK, EU, AU and Thailand. But the invalid passport was due to the passport is FULL rather than EXPIRE.

When having 3+ US passports -- some expired and some not -- all with valid visas for the same or different countries, transferring is often done more as a convenience than as party of any entry requirement by the receiving/host country/countries.
GUWonder, I can understand the convenience aspect especially in your case. What I don't understand is that you would need to have several valid visas for one country? Surely one transfer per country is usually enough?

The requirement to transfer, I am not able to judge. It would be good to have standardized requirements between the Schengen countries though.

. It would be good to have standardized requirements between the Schengen countries though.

+1 The requirements are non standard, not just for Finland. If you aplly for a Schengen visa in Spain the requirements are different from Holland, and so on. Protugal and Greece are chaotic. Switzerland is well organised...

GUWonder, I can understand the convenience aspect especially in your case. What I don't understand is that you would need to have several valid visas for one country?

Multiple non-expired visas from a given country in a (valid or expired) passport being a product of the passenger-receiving country having different types of visas, where some visas are applicable for some kinds of purposes/visits but not applicable for other purposes/visits. That (which may include different visa expiration dates) in combination with repeatedly going to some receiving country for different purposes/visits means that one visa type doesn't cover all trips but is required for some other trip(s).

While it would be possible in some situations to get a visa-issuing country to transfer all of its valid visas from one or more expired passports to a current passport, it is not always possible or even desirable to do so.