Hawaii-based Airlines - Does anyone know why Hawaiian makes Seattle pax stay overnight when going to Manila?

I fly this route 3-4 times a year. Hawaiian out of Seattle arrives around noon, but the Honolulu-Manila flight leaves at 12:15, requiring an overnight stay in Honolulu. There are worse places to be stuck for a day, but why oh why can't Hawaiian adjust their schedule ever so slightly so that we don't have to do a hotel stay? I'd ask Hawaiian, but there is no one in Honolulu that will speak to us civilians. I know, I've tried calling.

As a former airline employee (revenue management and scheduling guru), I will try to answer your question. The schedule from HNL/MNL/HNL is relatively fixed. In other words, if they moved it one hour later, then the return would be one hour later and it would require you to stay overnight on the way back. Overall, the scheduling for the MNL flight is pretty tight.

So, could we move the SEA-HNL flight one hour earlier? It's very possible, but you are bumping up against crew rest requirements. With 11 hours in Seattle, I'm assuming that the inbound crew the night before works the morning outbound flight. If so, there is no room to move the SEA-HNL flight any earlier.

The only solution for this problem would be to have extended crew rests in SEA -- i.e. inbound Monday night crew wouldn't leave until Wednesday morning. Then, the SEA-HNL flight could leave 45 minutes earlier so that connections could be made to HNL. This would be VERY expensive and probably not worth the additional revenue from flying a few more passengers to MNL.

I hope I gave a plausible answer to your question. Honestly, it would be unlikely that any phone agent for HA (even if they were in Hawaii) could answer this question. You would probably need to talk to the Director of Scheduling who probably wouldn't take calls from the general public.

That said, why don't you write a nice short concise letter to HA customer service and ask them to forward it to their Scheduling department? They do take written communications seriously.

It's the same for the outbound flight from HNL to SYD. Flight schedules from the mainland make it impossible to connect thru to the International flight the same day.

However if they pushed the Sydney departure out by an hour or two, as the plane does a turnaround the same evening for SYD HNL they could miss curfew.

Does MNL perhaps have a similar problem?

It's the same for the outbound flight from HNL to SYD. Flight schedules from the mainland make it impossible to connect thru to the International flight the same day.

However if they pushed the Sydney departure out by an hour or two, as the plane does a turnaround the same evening for SYD HNL they could miss curfew.

Does MNL perhaps have a similar problem?

In MNL, it's not a curfew -- it turns around between 5:30pm and 7:00pm. It's just the length of the flight and the time change that make it impossible to make the connections.

As you say, getting this info out of anyone at Hawaiian is nigh impossible. I will take your suggestion to write to customer service, thanks.

As a former airline employee (revenue management and scheduling guru), I will try to answer your question. The schedule from HNL/MNL/HNL is relatively fixed. In other words, if they moved it one hour later, then the return would be one hour later and it would require you to stay overnight on the way back. Overall, the scheduling for the MNL flight is pretty tight.

So, could we move the SEA-HNL flight one hour earlier? It's very possible, but you are bumping up against crew rest requirements. With 11 hours in Seattle, I'm assuming that the inbound crew the night before works the morning outbound flight. If so, there is no room to move the SEA-HNL flight any earlier.

The only solution for this problem would be to have extended crew rests in SEA -- i.e. inbound Monday night crew wouldn't leave until Wednesday morning. Then, the SEA-HNL flight could leave 45 minutes earlier so that connections could be made to HNL. This would be VERY expensive and probably not worth the additional revenue from flying a few more passengers to MNL.

I hope I gave a plausible answer to your question. Honestly, it would be unlikely that any phone agent for HA (even if they were in Hawaii) could answer this question. You would probably need to talk to the Director of Scheduling who probably wouldn't take calls from the general public.

That said, why don't you write a nice short concise letter to HA customer service and ask them to forward it to their Scheduling department? They do take written communications seriously.

In the past, I've had reasonably good luck when writing in to the airlines -- particularly when it's a problem that the front-line staff can't answer. I would also urge you to have any family or friends who go from SEA to MNL to write in as well. The more that write in, the more likely it is that HA might grant your request.

The more that write in, the more likely it is that HA might grant your request. I'm pretty sure they know they're missing a certain amount of [west coast]-HNL-MNL/SYD business with the mistimed connections. I'm also pretty sure that if it amounted to enough to warrant retiming the west coast departures they would have done so already.

I fly this route 3-4 times a year. Hawaiian out of Seattle arrives around noon, but the Honolulu-Manila flight leaves at 12:15, requiring an overnight stay in Honolulu. There are worse places to be stuck for a day, but why oh why can't Hawaiian adjust their schedule ever so slightly so that we don't have to do a hotel stay? I'd ask Hawaiian, but there is no one in Honolulu that will speak to us civilians. I know, I've tried calling.
Just pick a day that HA 1027 or HA 27 is flying out of SEA. For instance, on 9/12, HA 1027 leaves SEA at 8:05AM and arrives at HNL at 11:00AM, which means that an overnight stay isn't required to catch HA 455 to MNL. HA 27 is kind of "hit and miss." If one takes HA 27 on a Sunday (eg. 11/13, 11/20 and 11/27), no overnight stay is required; however, if one takes it on a Saturday or a Tuesday (eg. 11/12, 11/15, 11/19, 11/22, 11/26 and 11/29), an overnight stay is required even though the layover time is exactly the same (55 minutes). ;)

As to why HA 21 is the usual flight from SEA to HNL, instead of HA 1027 or HA 27 is something that would be interesting to know. I suspect that daylight savings time, headwinds (and/or tailwinds), gate assignments at HNL, and crew rest requirements all play a role...

However, instead of dealing with HA (which doesn't even have a daily flight from HNL to MNL), I'd simply take DL 295 from SEA to NRT, and DL 173 from NRT to MNL. Although there's 2 hour layover, no overnight stay is required, and DL has daily flights from SEA to NRT and NRT to MNL.

I'm pretty sure they know they're missing a certain amount of [west coast]-HNL-MNL/SYD business with the mistimed connections. I'm also pretty sure that if it amounted to enough to warrant retiming the west coast departures they would have done so already.

Generally, you would think that the airline would have researched this already. However, I assure you that this is not always the case. Often, an assumption is made about connecting traffic because "there is no way to really know for sure".

That said, writing a letter informs the airline as well as makes the potential passenger feel better as well. And, sometimes, schedule changes magically occur.

Generally, you would think that the airline would have researched this already. However, I assure you that this is not always the case. Often, an assumption is made about connecting traffic because "there is no way to really know for sure".

That said, writing a letter informs the airline as well as makes the potential passenger feel better as well. And, sometimes, schedule changes magically occur.
The person in charge of scheduling for HA is Andrew Watterson, VP of Planning and Revenue Management. Andrew's only been on the job since April 11, so hopefully, he'll take the time to carefully research all of HA's routes and optimize the flight timetable. :rolleyes:

The person in charge of scheduling for HA is Andrew Watterson, VP of Planning and Revenue Management. Andrew's only been on the job since April 11, so hopefully, he'll take the time to carefully research all of HA's routes and optimize the flight timetable.

Well, in a perfect world, the HA21 SEA-HNL would depart at 700a or so instead of 920a in order to make the onward connection to SYD. As it is now the HA451 pushes back 30 minutes before the HA21 pulls in. It wouldn't take very much to make that a simple 60-minute layover instead of a stupid 23-hour one. (Oddly the eastbound connections from SYD to the US mainland are very well timed... )

I always assumed HA knew they were losing business owing to this westbound schedule, but didn't care.

I always assumed HA knew they were losing business owing to this westbound schedule, but didn't care.

As I attempted to say earlier, they probably have done a rudimentary cost-benefit analysis: cost of crew overnighting in SEA for 2 nights (instead of one) vs. incremental revenue from passengers who would take a same day connection (but not the 23 hour connection currently offered).

I hope I've been clear. You can't simply schedule the SEA-HNL flight 90 minutes earlier without incurring the cost of an extra overnight for the crew.

The person in charge of scheduling for HA is Andrew Watterson, VP of Planning and Revenue Management. Andrew's only been on the job since April 11, so hopefully, he'll take the time to carefully research all of HA's routes and optimize the flight timetable. :rolleyes:

Hopefully, he will. HA's load factors don't seem to be suffering due to 23 hour SEA-MNL connections.

Truthfully who wants a 7.00 a.m. departure from the West Coast? It might suit those passengers who are trying to make connections onwards but I would hazard a guess that the majority of passengers are holiday makers with Hawaii as their final destination. Dragging yourself out of bed at 4.00 a.m. to get your kids showered, packed and at the airport for a 5.30 a.m. does not sound like a good start to a vacation for me.

Personally when I go to Sydney on Hawaiian I simply schedule a couple of days in Honolulu on the way over. It's not actually a hardship doing so. I actually prefer to take the break on the way as I find it less taxing to do the Honolulu - Sydney leg that way. If I want to go straight thru I take a flight out of LAX that goes to Oz direct non-stop.

Truthfully who wants a 7.00 a.m. departure from the West Coast? True enough, but it should be noted that 600a-700a departures from west coast airports are standard practice for people flying east, at least, who want to get where they're going before bedtime. When you pull up to SEA at 430a or so it is pretty well teeming with people. We're used to it.

As for the long HNL layover en route to SYD, I would venture that not everyone is as un-time-pressed as you -- if it's a two-week vacation it's hard to allot four days getting there.

Hopefully, he will. HA's load factors don't seem to be suffering due to 23 hour SEA-MNL connections.
Actually, the problem lies with the departure times of the HNL-MNL (HA 455) and HNL-SYD (HA 451) flights. Most of HA's westbound flights from the continental U.S. require an overnight stay in HNL if one's final destination is MNL or SYD. If the HNL-MNL flight departed at 2:30PM (instead of 12:30PM) and the HNL-SYD flight departed at 2:05PM (instead of 11:50AM), an overnight stay at HNL wouldn't be required for most of the customers going on to those destinations.

Here's a list of the usual arrival times for HA's westbound flights from the continental U.S. to HNL...

HA 17 LAS-HNL 5:00AM
HA 47 OAK-HNL 12:00PM
HA 35 PHX-HNL 11:25AM
HA 11 SFO-HNL 11:30AM
HA 1 LAX-HNL 11:35AM
HA 19 SMF-HNL 11:40AM
HA 43 SJC-HNL 11:50AM
HA 7 LAS-HNL 12:05PM
HA 21 SEA-HNL 12:20PM
HA 15 SAN-HNL 12:55PM
HA 25 PDX-HNL 1:05PM
HA 9 LAX-HNL 8:35PM

If any HA flights from the continental U.S. need to leave earlier, its HA 15 (SAN-HNL) and HA 25 (PDX-HNL).

Here's a list of the usual departure times for HA's westbound international flights...

HA 451 HNL-SYD 11:50AM
HA 455 HNL-MNL 12:30PM
HA 449 HNL-KIX 1:50PM
HA 459 HNL-ICN 2:10PM
HA 481 HNL-PPT 4:40PM
HA 465 HNL-PPG 4:55PM
HA 457 HNL-HND 6:35PM

If HA 15 leaves SAN at 9:05AM (instead of 10:05AM) and HA 25 leaves PDX at 9:15AM (instead of 10:15AM), those passengers would have enough time to catch HA 449 (HNL-KIX).

Thus, if HA 451 and 455 leave HNL a couple of hours later and HA 15 and 25 leave SAN and PDX an hour earlier, required overnight stays in HNL for most of HA's westbound passengers arriving from the continental U.S. would be eliminated. In addition, HA could lay off Andrew Watterson (just in case he's following this thread) -- I'm willing do his job for flight benefits, stock options, and a salary of $1 per year. ;)

I don't believe that pushing the Sydney departure back by a couple of hours would work. As it is, I believe the flight gets into Sydney about 7.30 p.m. and turns around the same night and departs at 9.30 p.m. back to Honolulu.

You have to remember that Sydney has a curfew from 11 p.m. to 6 am., so pushing the departure from Honolulu back by a couple of hours would likely mean they would not be able to turn around the same night.

We have done the 2 week vacation to Oz via Honolulu with the stopover. It is not ideal, however the good thing is you can connect to the mainland on the same day you come into Honolulu from Sydney.

We go to Oz 2-3 times a year. Our urgency to get their determines the routing. Over the last year we have gone via HNL to SYD on Hawaiian, via HKG on Cathay and from SFO on Qantas. What I like about the Hawaiian flight is even though you lose a day with the stopover I actually feel better when I arrive because it is only a 10 hour flight and it is nice to arrive in the evening, clear a nearly empty airport and hit the bed shortly after.

I don't believe that pushing the Sydney departure back by a couple of hours would work. As it is, I believe the flight gets into Sydney about 7.30 p.m. and turns around the same night and departs at 9.30 p.m. back to Honolulu.

You have to remember that Sydney has a curfew from 11 p.m. to 6 am., so pushing the departure from Honolulu back by a couple of hours would likely mean they would not be able to turn around the same night.
Actually, it can be done; however, it involves shifting a few resources around. ;)

You have to remember that Sydney has a curfew from 11 p.m. to 6 am., so pushing the departure from Honolulu back by a couple of hours would likely mean they would not be able to turn around the same night.

I am under the impression that the SYD arrival/departure times are pretty much etched in stone -- if they operated much later, they would run a risk of having even a slightly off-schedule departure nixed by curfew. If they ran much earlier, even fewer pax starting their days on the west coast could connect.

I have heard that HA tries to assign their highest reliability a/c to the SYD run, as if it departs HNL three or more hours off timetable the 451 runs a good chance of having to divert owing to the SYD 1100p curfew.

The only solution is to move the west coast connecting flights to earlier departure times but as has been pointed out upthread that means more costly crew rest/rotation tactics on the mainland and HA has probably figured the cost would outweigh revenue from added thru bookings.

I am under the impression that the SYD arrival/departure times are pretty much etched in stone -- if they operated much later, they would run a risk of having even a slightly off-schedule departure nixed by curfew. If they ran much earlier, even fewer pax starting their days on the west coast could connect.

I have heard that HA tries to assign their highest reliability a/c to the SYD run, as if it departs HNL three or more hours off timetable the 451 runs a good chance of having to divert owing to the SYD 1100p curfew.
There's actually a little "wiggle room" in the SYD arrival and departure times; however, having a consistent "on-time" departure out of HNL for HA 451 is another story. At its current 11:50AM departure time, HA 451 is "on time" only 57% of the time. Similarly, HA 455 with its 12:30PM departure time is "on time" only 58% percent of the time. For comparison, HA 452 (SYD-HNL) has an "on time" departure 84% of the time, while HA 456 (MNL-HNL) has an "on time" departure only 40% of the time. However, HA 459 (HNL-ICN) with a 2:10PM departure time is "on time" 91% of the time and HA's newest international flight HA 449 with a departure time of 1:50PM is "on time" only 47% of the time. A cursory analysis indicates that there are some "inefficiencies" at HNL during the noontime "shoulder period" that should be addressed. :rolleyes:


The only solution is to move the west coast connecting flights to earlier departure times but as has been pointed out upthread that means more costly crew rest/rotation tactics on the mainland and HA has probably figured the cost would outweigh revenue from added thru bookings.
Another solution is for HA to establish a second route to Australia. I suspect that some folks are going to be closely monitoring Strategic Airlines' new HNL-MEL and HNL-BNE routes, since the airports at MEL and BNE aren't hindered by curfew restrictions. ;)
http://www.flystrategic.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=iGHCejNBwDY%3d&tabid=90

There's actually a little "wiggle room" in the SYD arrival and departure times; however, having a consistent "on-time" departure out of HNL for HA 451 is another story. Looks like they use the "wiggle room" fairly often. :) I assume the published schedule is the latest HNL-SYD departure they dare set, given that they want as many flights/pax from the mainland as possible to be able to connect, and that inevitably things go wrong from time to time and they want to leave themselves that wiggle room.

When departure slips by more than three hours, though, guaranteeing that they can't turn at SYD and come back before the curfew hits, do they cancel or divert?

It would sure be interesting to see HA open BNE.

True enough, but it should be noted that 600a-700a departures from west coast airports are standard practice for people flying east, at least, who want to get where they're going before bedtime. When you pull up to SEA at 430a or so it is pretty well teeming with people. We're used to it.

As for the long HNL layover en route to SYD, I would venture that not everyone is as un-time-pressed as you -- if it's a two-week vacation it's hard to allot four days getting there.

Same thing in Portland, it's busier than hell before 6am at PDX.

It surprises me that the SYD flight is so spotty with arrival times. I have been on it numerous times and only on one occasion has it pushed back late, we ended up arriving in Sydney 1 hour behind schedule.

Another reason they would not push the arrival into Sydney back any further is it would rule out all possibility of any passengers being able to connect to domestic flights on the same night. With the current arrival time you can still get out to Brisbane, Melbourne and probably Perth, but much later than 7.30 p.m. and you would be SOL.

I don't think the scheduling problem is in SYD. After some study (not recent, admittedly), I think the problem is more likely a lack of gate space at HNL. Some planes need to leave before the last ones can arrive from the mainland.

KoaDude --

At the end of the day, HA is going to balance incremental revenue vs. incremental costs. They have the data available to them. I'm sure that schedules will be tweaked, if it makes a PROFITABLE contribution to the schedule. In the airline industry, it's not just the aircraft scheduling, but also the crew scheduling that can be tricky.

KoaDude --

At the end of the day, HA is going to balance incremental revenue vs. incremental costs. They have the data available to them. I'm sure that schedules will be tweaked, if it makes a PROFITABLE contribution to the schedule. In the airline industry, it's not just the aircraft scheduling, but also the crew scheduling that can be tricky.
While "the powers that be" at HA might have the data available to them, it's how that data is analyzed and used in the decision-making process that's important. During the next six months HA plans to hire 56 new pilots, 275 new flight attendants, 38 new customer service agents, and 40 new maintenance personnel. In addition, HA will receive 5 new A330s between now and the end of 2012. Thus, it should have the resources (ie. aircraft and crew) to tweak its schedules in order to maximize its profits while improving customer satisfaction...
http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=82818&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1606230&highlight=