France - Ideal number of days in Provence area?

I have about 3 weeks vacation, travelling solo, that I'd like to split between a few cities in Switzerland and the Provence area. Provence would be my main focus, with the leftover time to be spent in Switzerland (I've already been to most of the cities, this would be to those that I missed last time). Currently I have about 12 days budgeted for Provence. Is that a good amount of time without rushing? Or too much time?

I'd like to visit Aix-en-Provence, Avignon, Cote D'Azur, Marseille, and any other nearby cities and towns which should be visited. I'd like to avoid renting a car, but I'm open to it.

I don't think there is one thing that is ideal for everyone. A lot depends on when you go there and what your tastes are like.

If you are really on holiday and not between business conferences, I would suggest you should relax and take advantage of the local pleasures. You can easily do this without an auto. In other words, I would concentrate on the relaxing and enjoying rather than the travelling and seeing.

If you will be there after August, you might spend half the time in Aix-en-Provence and Avignon and the other half on the coast. Personally, I prefer Nice over Marseille, but that is my personal taste. There is a local train line that follows the coast and stops in most villages. You could easily travel from one village to another with this train.

If you enjoy beaches, you could spend a morning in Menton, have lunch somewhere, then walk to Italy and swim in a beach there. It is very relaxing and enjoyable.

We'll most likely do a one week river cruise (Chalon-sur-Saône to Avignon), have six days in between that and one week in the Luberon (be based one week in Bonnieux (at Le Clos du Buis (http://en.leclosdubuis.fr/)) doing local Luberon exploring (villages, historic areas, markets, etc.) Oh, in May 2012.

Ideally, we'd not rent a car, though for the six days it would be fine (Luberon we are covered, as we will be with a small group of 12 or so, two vehicles, etc.) We're considering some days in Aix en Provence, ending a couple of days in Avignon - but what may we be missing? Should we add Arles? (Etc.)

We have visited some of the coast (Nice to Monaco, and a little bit inland, hill towns, etc.) and wanted a more in depth time to experience Vaucluse, Luberon, etc.

We're well-traveled seniors, enjoy a moderate pace and like to walk, sightseeing, enjoying local meals, photography, etc. Your recommendations would be appreciated.

Have you thought about Nîmes and/or Orange? Both have stunning Roman ruins. Nîmes has the Maison Carrée and the Arènes. Orange has a wonderful ampitheatre.

We're well-traveled seniors, enjoy a moderate pace and like to walk, sightseeing, enjoying local meals, photography, etc. Your recommendations would be appreciated.

Through my Belgian-French brother-in-law, I have discovered several very lovely old towns in the area. I recommend all of them. They are Èze, La Turbie (the old village), Roquebrune-Cap-Martin (the old village up the hill, not the new village on the coast) and Sainte-Agnès.

All or almost all of these ancient towns should be reachable by bus. You can check the local bus information here: http://www.ceparou06.fr/

If you cannot find a bus, I would suggest a local taxi company. Either bus or taxi would be much more convenient than renting an auto.

I knew I had forgotten one town. Here it is: Saint Paul de Vence.

Great suggestions - I will do some research. And I am not completely averse to renting a car for the six day interim between river cruise and Luberon stay at / around Bonnieux.

I'm an advocate of renting a car. Provence is a lovely area with many small delights. I can't imagine trying to rely on local transport. A bus might be fine to get between towns, but there are many things to see and do that are not in towns proper. A car is the only realistic way to access them. I've traveled with my husband in Provence and also with a friend while staying at her home in Apt. It's not only the sights, it's also the restaurants which can be tucked away in the countryside. A car simplifies planning a day tremendously.

I'm an advocate of renting a car. Provence is a lovely area with many small delights. I can't imagine trying to rely on local transport. A bus might be fine to get between towns, but there are many things to see and do that are not in towns proper. A car is the only realistic way to access them. I've traveled with my husband in Provence and also with a friend while staying at her home in Apt. It's not only the sights, it's also the restaurants which can be tucked away in the countryside. A car simplifies planning a day tremendously.

1. The difference between an auto and public transport is like the difference between cable television and television on demand: for cable you pay for every programme transmitted, for demand only those programmes you want. An auto is 24 hours per day of both costs and care, public transport you pay only for the trip and there is no maintenance.

2. Most restaurants, probably like in the US, are not in the middle of fields in the countryside. They are in villages and towns. It makes more sense for a business to be where there are people, doesn't it?

3. If you really want to see the countryside, wouldn't you want to smell the flowers in the air, feel the breezes from the water (if there is any), feel the sun on your head? Can you do that in an auto? No, but you can do it on a bicycle or on foot.

We'll possibly, er, take the middle road and use the riverboat* and foot on the cruise, rely on walking and the two group leaders' vehicles during the week-long Bonneiux stay** and maybe rent a car for the six days in the middle. We do love to walk. (We'll probably do a stay at Lyon at the Hilton on arrival to adjust to time etc. and depart from Marseille.)

*Boat starts from Chalon-sur-Saône, visits (directly or by land tour) Beaune, Tournus and Mâcon, Lyon, Vienne, Tournon, Viviers, Arfes and Avignon and vicinities.

**locally, Bonnieux, the market, a home with caves (inhabited by troglodytes in ancient days) under the home, Lacoste and Roussillon, Abbaye St. Hilaire and the ruins of the Marquis de Sade’s castle, Pont Julien, local restaurants, wineries, farms, etc. and ranging to market day at L’Isle-sur-la-Sorgue, Saignon and a home/ goat farm, Fôret de Cèdres or Fort de Buoux, Gordes and the Abbaye de Sènanque, the Vaucluse Plateau and Lioux and Chateau la Canorgue, St. Remy-de-Provence / Glanum and Saint Paul de Mausole (and the Roman aqueduct ruins near Barbegal) and Maussane in the Alpilles, perhaps Aix-en-Provence, Oppède-le-Vieux, etc.

Depending on your preferences, you may very well want to visit the Camargue National Park which is south of Avignon. Lots to see and some striking towns nearby:
A remarkably preserved Romanesque facade (http://artsymbol.wordpress.com/category/romanesque/romanesque-iconography/) in St. Gilles.
The now land locked historic town/port of Aigues Mortes (http://www.languedoc-france.info/030416_aiguesmortes.htm)
Now we're edging into Languedoc-Roussillon, granted.
In the other direction, I second the idea of a night in St. Agnes (http://www.beyond.fr/villages/steagnes.html) but it's a bit difficult, the twisting somewhat narrow road up to the highest coastal village in Europe.
"The one thing that saves Sainte Agnes from being overrun [with tourists] is that it's not easy to get to; only 4 km from the coast as the eagle flies, it's about 12 km of narrow and twisty mountain roads by car, above Menton at the eastern end of the French Riviera."
We arrived very late, in a heavy rain, found a place to have dinner and borrowed a market umbrella (HUGE!) to make it back to our room. In the light of the next morning, it did seem a little touristy for such a small, obscure town. There weren't many tourists there but quite a few stores catering to the daytrippers.

Just a warning: St. Gilles is an impoverished town (at least when I was there a while ago) and seemed to be a town where the Govt placed a lot of new immigrants. No problems but there were NO tourists there.

Thanks for the advice, Skeeter and all! We're enjoying the planning of it, and am sure we will even enjoy it more when winter winds blow here. :)

In the other direction, I second the idea of a night in St. Agnes (http://www.beyond.fr/villages/steagnes.html) but it's a bit difficult, the twisting somewhat narrow road up to the highest coastal village in Europe.
"The one thing that saves Sainte Agnes from being overrun [with tourists] is that it's not easy to get to; only 4 km from the coast as the eagle flies, it's about 12 km of narrow and twisty mountain roads by car, above Menton at the eastern end of the French Riviera."


Or one could take the #10 bus from Menton and let the professional driver worry about the difficult roads.

Provence covers 6 departments. A vast area. For me, Provence is the back country, the rural areas, stopping at little wineries to taste in the middle of the countryside, discovering little restaurants in tiny towns.

Impossible to do without a car!

Bicycle will certainly narrow your field, but sure, that's a swell way to see the countryside as well, as long as you are in shape to do the hilly areas.

RE: St Paul: A VERY over-touristed place, much too cutesy for my taste. Better, go to the larger and real town of Vence, with real people and a real environment.

What are your preferred activities for Provence?

Provence covers 6 departments. A vast area. For me, Provence is the back country, the rural areas, stopping at little wineries to taste in the middle of the countryside, discovering little restaurants in tiny towns.

Impossible to do without a car!...Cannot agree more strongly with this, after spending 10 days in Provence (with a car). The cities/towns are OK but hardly worth visiting for the most part ... the villages are fabulous and difficult to get to without a car. It is pointless to visit Provence and stay in the cities, you will not get any of the benefits and endure all the hassles. Even many of the museums, for example the perfume museum, require a car to be reached -- this is not Paris!

I was astonished at the contrast, how much nicer the 'rural' parts of Provence were than the bigger towns.

Impossible to do without a car!


Really? Why is it then that I have been going to Provence many years, never with a car, have gone where-ever I want, seen whatever I want to see, done whatever I wanted to do all without a car? Always by public transport (and a taxi if necessary).

The answer is really quite simple: I did not grow up in a car-culture. A culture where there is little or no public transport.

I see that there are now even people born in a car-culture who come to Europe and take advantage of a transport system that perhaps they do not have in their own countries.

But, sadly, there are some who still cannot see beyond what they are accustomed to.

Joost is on a one-man crusade here to prevent people from driving. Pay him no attention. You will be miserable relying on public transportation, especially as seniors. And a car = liberty to see and do what you want.

If you need ideas of what to see or where to eat in Chalon sur Saone, let me know. I might even be able to meet you for a glass of our local wine. ;)

Joost is on a one-man crusade here to prevent people from driving. Pay him no attention. You will be miserable relying on public transportation, especially as seniors. And a car = liberty to see and do what you want.


No, Joost is on a one-man crusade here to reveal a "secret" to those who can see no further than an automobile: that secret is that there are much more efficient alternatives, not only in France, but all over Europe.

But, let me give you the words of a fellow-American (coincidentally, one who lives in the same city I do):

"As an American who has been living here for several years, I am struck, every time I go home, by the way American cities remain manacled to the car. While Europe is dealing with congestion and greenhouse gas buildup by turning urban centers into pedestrian zones and finding innovative ways to combine driving with public transportation, many American cities are carving out more parking spaces."

(http://tinyurl.com/3vxum78)

Perhaps Joostvd doesn't believe in shopping as well. No car limits you to small items and small quantities. (Perhaps you found some wonderful wine in the countryside? That's heavy and delicate!)

For larger towns, perhaps you only want to do Aix, Avignon, Arles and Marseilles-- possible without a car. (And very limiting) But how do you get from Isle Sur la Sorgue to Vaugines by public transit? Near impossible. What about time management waiting for these transports? What if you just love the breathtaking Gorge du Verdon?

Plus sometimes, you just want to pull off a road and admire the scenery. Perhaps it's lavender season, the broom or the coqueliqots are flowering, whatever. What about enjoying a picq-nique in the middle of nowhere? Impossible on a bus!

Yes, car culture has its faults, but driving around and enjoying Provence is not one of them!

I agree - assuming that you can get over your guilt as carbon polluters, which I assume you can, your vacation will be much more enjoyable in Provence with a car. And to answer the original question about the ideal number of days to spend in Provence - as many days as you have remaining on the planet would be the ideal number of days to spend in Provence - although, if it were me, I'd also spend a share of them in the Rhone and Burgundy as well.

Ah, well, it seems like, very much, "à chacun ses goûts" applies here (as in everywhere). We enjoy walking, using rail, a variety of sights including small towns, Roman ruins, rural scenery, you name it, and we had a pleasant time in Paris this year, so are focusing on the south and a variety of rural to less rural (I guess Lyon would qualify as urban!) We often prefer staying in a place 2 - 4 days and base ourselves there rather than move with our rollaboards and "personal items" every day to a different place. We're active seniors, but will leave all the rushing around to catch every sight there is to others... ;)

We'll be there too early for the big lavender blooms, but there will be plenty more to do. Here is our schedule as it is shaping up:

1) US - France, a day or two to catch up to local time and all that.

2) Riverboat cruise to ease in - walking tours, a few coach uses
Apr 29 2012 Day 1 - Board at Chalon-sur-Saône

Day 2 - Beaune for touring Hôtel Dieu and, of course, wine
Day 3 - Day at Lyon/
Day 4 - Morning at Lyon, afternoon in Vienne
Day 5 - Tournon & Viviers
Day 6 - Arles
Day 7 - Avignon
Day 8 (Sunday May 12) - Disembark at Avignon

THE GAP I am working on with your advice to fill
May 6 (Sunday) - 12 (Saturday)





Sun May 6 - Sat May 12 Luberon week based at le Clos du Buis (http://www.leclosdubuis.fr), Bonnieux
"Group" of 12, two organisers who have lived here and take small groups annually, some vehicular travel with options as there are 12 of us and two vans.
- as stated previously, locally, Bonnieux, a home with caves (inhabited by troglodytes in ancient days) under the home, Lacoste and Roussillon, Abbaye St. Hilaire and the ruins of the Marquis de Sade’s castle, Pont Julien, local restaurants, wineries, farms, etc. and ranging to market day at L’Isle-sur-la-Sorgue, Saignon and a home/ goat farm, Fôret de Cèdres or Fort de Buoux, Gordes and the Abbaye de Sènanque, the Vaucluse Plateau and Lioux and Chateau la Canorgue winery, St. Remy-de-Provence / Glanum and Saint Paul de Mausole (and the Roman aqueduct ruins near Barbegal) and Maussane in the Alpilles, perhaps Aix-en-Provence, Oppède-le-Vieux, etc.

Maybe ending with a day or two in Marseille (they can drop us off in Marseille or Avignon) and some seafood (bouillabaise, for course!) and back home to the US.

Added: At our age, not much shopping and more giving things away / downsizing, though the day trip to Beaune may certainly result in a bottle or two we can enjoy on the boat. We prefer to make light impact, so public transport is good, and it's why we use cruise boats (no packing / unpacking, form of mass transit essentially,) and sometimes we do use vehicles (vans from Bonneux, again numbers and locations covered, an occasional car or driven car, etc.) when it's necessary. We enjoy the European alternatives (e.g. TGV, etc.) making lower impact and providing the vitesse part between cities / towns, but can enjoy local transport for the pace as well. IMO we don't have to be extremists either way. :)

stimpy, we'll probably take you up on your offer and PM you as the date approaches; thanks.

And to answer the original question about the ideal number of days to spend in Provence - as many days as you have remaining on the planet would be the ideal number of days to spend in Provence - although, if it were me, I'd also spend a share of them in the Rhone and Burgundy as well.

Good answer!

JDiver, have you thought of Carcassone? Its a supremely interesting place to visit if you are interested in history.

And regarding your trip on the Saone, I find it a bit bizarre that you would start in Chalon, go north to Beaune, then back south to Lyon? But I've never taken one of these cruises so I don't know if that is normal. I just see the cruisees (sp?) wandering my local market whenever they stop by in Chalon on a Friday or Sunday.

Plus sometimes, you just want to pull off a road and admire the scenery. Perhaps it's lavender season, the broom or the coqueliqots are flowering, whatever. What about enjoying a picq-nique in the middle of nowhere? Impossible on a bus!


Perhaps you can explain to me why it is only Americans who believe it is "necessary" to have an auto in Provence?

As I explained to Stimpy, it is not that I am against any use of autos, it is that the correct tool should be applied for the task. Do you also use a hammer to put in a screw?

As for your "impossible on a bus" comment (like your "impossible without a car") you are merely demonstrating, as many of your other countrymen, the lack of knowledge and understanding about public transport in Europe that prevent you from even looking at public transport.

Travelling in Provence or Bavaria or Wallonia or even the UK can be easily done by public transport. It is only the lack of interest that prevents you from enjoying it (and instead paying hundreds of euros for speeding fines and tire punctures).

Perhaps you can explain to me why it is only Americans who believe it is "necessary" to have an auto in Provence?

Before you embarrass yourself further...it's certainly not Americans. Aside from roughly 15 million French cars registered in Provence, at this time of year you mostly see Dutch, Belgian and German (in that order) plates on cars there. I'd wager that Americans are not even in the top 10 of drivers in Provence.

About 38 Million cars registered in France to French persons--

The French love to caravan-- it is the #1 favorite activity for the French, to drive around France in August, and then stop at a "Camping" area, park the thing, cook dinner and chill out. How do the French do that without a vehicle?

And Joostvd has yet to demonstrate how one carries several wine bottles and large craft items around Provence without a car. (Items acquired while shopping). Nor has Joostvd explained how one stops in the middle of the rural countryside to admire the scenery and flowers, and how one can do a pic-nique in the middle of nowhere without a car. Or visit a town like Buoux, right in the gap in the Luberon, where buses do not stop. Or visit the Gorge du Verdon, not serviced by public transportation.

Before you embarrass yourself further...it's certainly not Americans. Aside from roughly 15 million French cars registered in Provence, at this time of year you mostly see Dutch, Belgian and German (in that order) plates on cars there. I'd wager that Americans are not even in the top 10 of drivers in Provence.

And how many American license plates do you see? Oh, right, none. Because the Americans are all driving in rental autos with French license plates. And what does that prove?

About 38 Million cars registered in France to French persons--


According to Wikipedia, less than 50 percent of French people have autos. If there are 62 million people in France, I don't see how that means 38 million autos.


And Joostvd has yet to demonstrate how one carries several wine bottles and large craft items around Provence without a car. (Items acquired while shopping). Nor has Joostvd explained how one stops in the middle of the rural countryside to admire the scenery and flowers, and how one can do a pic-nique in the middle of nowhere without a car. Or visit a town like Buoux, right in the gap in the Luberon, where buses do not stop. Or visit the Gorge du Verdon, not serviced by public transportation.

How many tourists buy bottles in France to carry back to the US?

How do you stop in the country side? Perhaps transport à la demande (as is common in countries all over Europe)? But have you even bothered to look?

No, there is no public transport to the gorge, but there is a bus to Castellane, one of the towns on the gorge. And, I suppose with a public park with roads around the gorge you would prefer sitting in your auto looking at the views rather than getting out of the bus and walking.

I don't know why I bother but...

According to Wiki, 49.4 percent of the entire population (men women and children and not counting scooters, etc) have cars in France. And that is only the ones that are legally registered.

And there aren't nearly enough cars at all the rental agencies in France, assuming 100% of the cars are rented to Americans, to match all the cars coming down from Holland and Belgium.

I recently drove from Paris to Brussels (normally I take the Thalys, but nevermind), and there were more Dutch and Belgian cars than French on the autoroute. It is quite clear to me that the Dutch and Belgians are FAR more likely than Americans to choose their car over public transport in France.

We do like to regionalize our travel sometimes and get to know an area (as opposed to speed though it) - though on others, we will trot off and go scuba diving in the Philippines, Fiji, Indonesia, etc. Some countries we go back to and explore bit by bit - some you can only do that, such as Australia. I find eating too much at one meal makes me woozy.. :)

Carcassonne looks lovely - easy rail connect frm Avignon after disembarking the boat, maybe then to Marseille for a couple or three days, and off to Bonnieux.

ok folks - do we really want to discuss cars in this thread? I am sure we don't. Please remain on topic - or this thread will be shut down, moved, disciplinary action taken, etc... it's always the same people involved in that kind of discussions ;)

thanks for your understanding and please take any personal dispute to pm :)

regards,

chrissxb
co-moderator
france forum

Hmm. It looks esy from Avignon to Carcassonne by rail, maybe go there that Sunday, overnight 2-3 nights and off to Aix and then to Bonnieux?

What best sights in / around those (Yes, I do research, and even use Search ;), but FTers recommendations are often a bit more specific and knowldgeable than some book or website). Especially Carcassonne, which FT has a desert of information.

Hmm. It looks esy from Avignon to Carcassonne by rail, maybe go there that Sunday, overnight 2-3 nights and off to Aix and then to Bonnieux?

What best sights in / around those (Yes, I do research, and even use Search ;), but FTers recommendations are often a bit more specific and knowldgeable than some book or website). Especially Carcassonne, which FT has a desert of information.

Thanks for closing the discussion on autos. I agree it doesn't belong here especially when there is already a good public transport system in place.

I don't know if you know this site, but I find http://wikitravel.org/ quite useful for destination information. Most of the articles seem to be written by local people and are quite up to date. Good luck.

Dank u wel, Joost!

How many tourists buy bottles in France to carry back to the US?

In 5 trips to the southern half of France, I have NEVER failed to buy and carry back with me at least a mixed case of wine from Burgundy and/or the Rhone valley, purchased directly from the various domaine producers, and it's always a major aspect of my travel itinerary. I'd be really curious as to how you'd propose doing that while confining one's self to public transit?

In 5 trips to the southern half of France, I have NEVER failed to buy and carry back with me at least a mixed case of wine from Burgundy and/or the Rhone valley, purchased directly from the various domaine producers, and it's always a major aspect of my travel itinerary. I'd be really curious as to how you'd propose doing that while confining one's self to public transit?

If you are buying from "various domaine producers" that means you are buying perhaps a few bottles from producer A, a few from producer B, etc. Can you explain to me how it is a problem to carry several bottles in a bus?

Secondly, if you can transport the crate to the airport check-in and from your arrival airport to your auto, you have a good idea how you can do this with public transport. And, before you say there is no baggage cart in the bus: I use a folding photo equipment carrier when I need to do this. It can easily hold at least one crate.

here's my opinion on this:

in Provence you definitely need a car. public transport is not reliable especially if you want to go to isolated places like La Roque sur Cèze. you won't probably need it when going to big cities. but look at these pictures - you would miss this:

http://i54.servimg.com/u/f54/11/94/91/61/p1000115.jpg

http://i54.servimg.com/u/f54/11/94/91/61/p1000110.jpg

and I do not want to wait for a bus in summer ... it's not convenient. oh right, some places like the village where I live have a public transport system. we have 5 busses a day. and the south of France is definitely not better than Alsace for public transport.
another point: most wine maker are not close to a bus stop, too. paying for a taxi - yes. but then again, rental car is cheaper. and could we now end that discussion and go back to the main topic? ;)

Dank u wel, Joost!

You are quite welcome. By the way, it is also quite OK to say "Dank je wel" in Dutch. The difference between je and u is like in French tu and vous.

If you can afford it, this is a wonderful hotel and a travel experience it its own right. http://www.hoteldelacite.com/web/ocar/hotel_de_la_cite.jsp I think it is in FHR if you have an Amex Plat or Centurion card.

Just walking around the ancient walls and recalling the crusade against the Cathars, maybe with a guide, would be a good start.

In 5 trips to the southern half of France, I have NEVER failed to buy and carry back with me at least a mixed case of wine from Burgundy and/or the Rhone valley, purchased directly from the various domaine producers, and it's always a major aspect of my travel itinerary. I'd be really curious as to how you'd propose doing that while confining one's self to public transit?

Aside from always stopping at remote countryside "caves" run by families producing small quantities of local wine, not to be found in stores-- We've also bought things like pottery and knicknacks at markets like St Remy that would be impossible to carry without a car.

If you make it to Aix-en-Provence and have any interest in art, I suggest you seek out the Route de Cezanne (http://en.aixenprovencetourism.com/aix-circuits.htm#). It travels along the roads that the painter used to access some of his favorite subjects.

On a separate note: a case of mixed wines on a return flight? I used to squirrel away wine bottles in my luggage years ago but gave up that idea since the airplanes started charging for almost everything. Knowing how they manhandle luggage doesn't inspire my trusting them with a case of wine. How do you do it and what are the likely costs (excess charges)?

Ok, I have come up with a preliminary itinerary:

Day 1: arrive in CDG from YYZ, then a train to Marseille
2 Marseille
3 Aix-en-Provence
4 Aix-en-Provence
5 Aix-en-Provence
6 Luberon
7 Luberon
8 Arles
9 Vaison
10 Vaison
11 Avignon
12 Avignon (day trip to Chateauneuf du Pape)
13 Avignon (day trip to Orange)
14 Avignon (day trip to St. Remy)
15 Avignon (day trip to Pont du Gard)
16 train to Paris, then CDG-YYZ

Any suggestions, did I miss anything? Is it too rushed?

Ok, I have come up with a preliminary itinerary:

Day 1: arrive in CDG from YYZ, then a train to Marseille
2 Marseille
3 Aix-en-Provence
4 Aix-en-Provence
5 Aix-en-Provence
6 Luberon
7 Luberon
8 Arles
9 Vaison
10 Vaison
11 Avignon
12 Avignon (day trip to Chateauneuf du Pape)
13 Avignon (day trip to Orange)
14 Avignon (day trip to St. Remy)
15 Avignon (day trip to Pont du Gard)
16 train to Paris, then CDG-YYZ

Any suggestions, did I miss anything? Is it too rushed?

Well, I'm a wineaux, so I would do, in addition to Chateauneuf du Pape, a couple of days heading up the Rhone Valley to Tain l'Hermitage, Cornas, and Ampuis (Cote Rotie). You can also tour the Valrhona chocolate factory in Tain. But unless you're into those Rhone wines, it's probably not as scenic as the areas you've identified out of Avignon. I'd cut one day out of Aix.

I'd cut one day out of Aix.

I agree. If you like antique shopping or perusing, maybe swing by L'Isle-sur-la-Sorgue which is famous for having the biggest brocante maybe in all of France.

One other question since there seems to be a discussion about cars here..... are there a lot of hills on this route? Reason is that while I've driven a manual before, I haven't done so in a long time. I'm debating whether or not to pay the extra $350 over two weeks for an automatic.

One other question since there seems to be a discussion about cars here..... are there a lot of hills on this route? Reason is that while I've driven a manual before, I haven't done so in a long time. I'm debating whether or not to pay the extra $350 over two weeks for an automatic.

What route exactly? If you go down to the beach, there are of course hills. There are really steep roads, but ways to avoid them too. I think you will remember how to drive a manual after an hour or so. But that's just MHO.

Allow me to jump in with a similar Cote d'Azur/Provence day trip query.

OK, so we have 5 days in Southern France in total. Here's what I propose with a few gaps:

Day 1: Arrive by train to Nice. Store luggage. Walk around promenade, have lunch and get rental car. Drive to St. Maxime perhaps via Frejus. Spend two nights. Dinner in and around St. Maxime.

Day 2: Market day in St. Maxime. Day at beach in Nartelle. Lunch. Late afternoon head to St. Tropez via ferry. Visit beaches, have dinner walk around. Late ferry back.

Day 3: Market in St. Tropez (could do without perhaps). Grimaud/Port Grimaud have lunch. Drive to Aix via Hyeres or Toulon? Arrive in Aix. Wander around, have dinner.

Day 4: Day trip in Provence. Recommendations?

Day 5: Day trip in Provence. Recommendations? Head back to Nice late in the day to catch early flight.

Are the coast days well planned or too packed? Also, suggestions for where we should go for the two day trips in Provence?

Thanks so much!

We've decided to laze it out, and have added four days in Marseille (seafood, marine interests, Chateau d'If, Cassis and the calanques,) and three in Aix en Provence and vicinity. This will be in the middle of the cruise below, and the stay from Bonnieux, where our hosts have two vans so we can divide up into groups (there will be 12 of us in total) for vehicular excursions to the local villages, markets and sites as shown below.

The final week we will be using www.luberonexperience.com for our village stay; they have some very good reviews, and for our final week it's all taken care of (they pick up and drop at Avignon TGV station or Marseille airport).

Thank you all for your input!

BTW, anyone have any idea of Jacques-Yves Cousteau's Calypso is still in Marseille harbour? I now of the dispute, but I'd still love to get a look at it (hallowed hull for a diver with 55 years of experience, who began his diving career with an imported Aqualung from France!)

We'll possibly, er, take the middle road and use the riverboat* and foot on the cruise, rely on walking and the two group leaders' vehicles during the week-long Bonneiux stay** and maybe rent a car for the six days in the middle. We do love to walk. (We'll probably do a stay at Lyon at the Hilton on arrival to adjust to time etc. and depart from Marseille.)

*Boat starts from Chalon-sur-Saône, visits (directly or by land tour) Beaune, Tournus and Mâcon, Lyon, Vienne, Tournon, Viviers, Arles and Avignon and vicinities. And a couple of decent wineries.

**locally, Bonnieux, the market, a home with caves (inhabited by troglodytes in ancient days) under the home, Lacoste and Roussillon, Abbaye St. Hilaire and the ruins of the Marquis de Sade’s castle, Pont Julien, local restaurants, wineries, farms, etc. and ranging to market day at L’Isle-sur-la-Sorgue, Saignon and a home/ goat farm, Fôret de Cèdres or Fort de Buoux, Gordes and the Abbaye de Sènanque, the Vaucluse Plateau and Lioux and Chateau la Canorgue, St. Remy-de-Provence / Glanum and Saint Paul de Mausole (and the Roman aqueduct ruins near Barbegal) and Maussane in the Alpilles, perhaps Aix-en-Provence, Oppède-le-Vieux, etc.

We've decided to laze it out, and have added four days in Marseille (seafood, marine interests, Chateau d'If, Cassis and the calanques,) and three in Aix en Provence and vicinity. This will be in the middle of the cruise below, and the stay from Bonnieux, where our hosts have two vans so we can divide up into groups (there will be 12 of us in total) for vehicular excursions to the local villages, markets and sites as shown below.

The final week we will be using www.luberonexperience.com for our village stay; they have some very good reviews, and for our final week it's all taken care of (they pick up and drop at Avignon TGV station or Marseille airport).

Thank you all for your input!

BTW, anyone have any idea of Jacques-Yves Cousteau's Calypso is still in Marseille harbour? I now of the dispute, but I'd still love to get a look at it (hallowed hull for a diver with 55 years of experience, who began his diving career with an imported Aqualung from France!)

JDiver, it sounds as if you have your Bonnieux visit all wrapped up, but I will be visiting just ahead of you, staying at www.lesterrassesduluberon.fr
We are departing March 8, DFW-CDG, and staying two days in Paris, before taking the train from Paris-Avignon. We are planning to rent a car in Avignon for the drive to Bonnieux and our stay in the Luberon. Please let me know if I can be of any hindsight assistance.

J'espere que nous apprecierez notre voyage autant que nous allons!

Sounds great! At least speaking for myself here, I think we will be looking forward to your reports. Thank you for your kind offer for hindsight assistance - it can be invaluable.

Your French is infinitely better than mine... and I'm looking forward to my trip.

Je vous souhaite un très agréable voyage

JDiver, it sounds as if you have your Bonnieux visit all wrapped up, but I will be visiting just ahead of you, staying at www.lesterrassesduluberon.fr
We are departing March 8, DFW-CDG, and staying two days in Paris, before taking the train from Paris-Avignon. We are planning to rent a car in Avignon for the drive to Bonnieux and our stay in the Luberon. Please let me know if I can be of any hindsight assistance.

J'espere que nous apprecierez notre voyage autant que nous allons!