MilesBuzz! - AA now closing doors early

From CEO, Don Carty:

...we're launching a series of initiatives this summer that we think will help a great deal.
Some of it has already begun. This month, for example, we implemented a new departure plan on critical morning flights -- a plan that will help us avoid delays that cascade down through the day.
We've also begun closing the doors of the aircraft five minutes ahead of time, and we're closing the ramp and cargo operations at D-minus-two, so that we can consistently push back at D-zero. These efforts just recently got under way, so it's a little too early to measure the impact on dependability, but we really do think they'll go a long way toward getting the airplanes out on time.

So, I think that makes AA, UA, and US all with official policies of closing the door five minutes before departure now ...

Does this mean that they will stop filling up the planes with standbys, because that procedure typically means getting an empty seat count and then assigning the seats to standby passengers - a procedure that typically delays the flight at least 10 minutes.

This mindless crap is just cascading. Now the Seattle Ferryboat system has announced that as a result of observing airline practices, boats will stop loading and leave on schedule, regardless of whether the boat is full. This concept of making the customer the badguy is going to go out of control.

Even though I have probably benefited in the past from "slow"/"late" departures, I have
this little inner voice questioning what is
wrong with departing on time? After all, some
98% of passengers are boarded - probably after waiting for the gate to open - and why
should they be put to disadvantage to accomodate late arrivals? Some forms of transportation do regularly depart on time
in some parts of the world.

I certainly have no objections to departing on time. However, I would estimate that by far the larger number of my flights do not depart on time because they do not begin LOADING on time. The incoming flight is late, or the food is late getting on board, or the gate agent is backed up, or they are looking into a mechanical problem, or ... You get the idea. If they are going to make passengers the fall guys to improve their on-time statistics when other things are at fault, I will object. However, haven't had any problems yet (but I am usually at the airport with plenty of time).

Djlawman

I agree with DJLawman (and others). I don't mind boarding early but let's be consistent. We have to be tolerant and patient when airlines have delays (whether it’s the airline’s fault or the weather). I don’t see the airlines offering that much flexibility in return.

Airlines wonder why the traveling public is so irate about service. It's bad enough a flight that is 15 minutes late is still considered on time (in FAA vernacular), now we have to figure an 8:50 departure time is actually an 8:45? Sure it’s only five minutes, but where does this end? Funny that recently I called for an advertised $99.00 fare that cost $115.00 once the fees was added. $16 isn’t going to break the bank, but whatever happened to accuracy?

The airlines should put together a workable, attainable schedule so we depart on time. For example, USAir sold me a ticket next Tuesday where I connect in Pittsburgh at 10:00 PM. My connection has exactly :30 minutes between scheduled landing and scheduled departure. In that meager time I have to deplane and then go find my departing flight at that fairly large airport. Nowhere on my ticket does it say that USAir closes the door 5-10 minutes early, but I know they do, so now I have about :20 minutes to catch my flight.

In year's past the airlines figured in departure procedure time when assembling schedules (along with average tarmac taxi times and actual flight time). It is these times that need to be adjusted.

What a joke! Airlines create far more delays than the passengers do!

I was departing FRA for YYZ a couple of weeks back. My ICE train was late into the FRA station in Frankfurt (2 days later a new station opened right at FRA...dream come true!). I get to the AC ticket counter 32 minutes till depart. Ticket lady "You are quite late." I'm thinking..."no kidding Einstein...why do you think I'm breathing so hard?" but I come across all nice and apologetic. Doesn't work...she wants to put on the later flight. I finally convince her I will try and make it and if not then I will rebook.

So (I know you can see where this is going) I run and jog the whole way to the gate, quite some distance. Get there all beat to hell after running between trains, etc.

Plane hasn't even started boarding yet as it hadn't been given a departure slot yet.

Nice eh?

------------------

Dorian

'The early bird may catch the worm but it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.'

People keep missing the point. Regular travelers know we have to be as early as possible. Late connections are the bugaboo. The airlines know the problem is with the gate personnel, food service, refuelers, etc., but they are reluctant to take them on, with labor relations in the state they are. So they are making the customer the bad guy. Miss a flight (like I did) and you will more than likely be reamed by an employee, who tells you that YOU are the problem (as I was). Not only is this craziness not going to improve on-time stats (which all the carriers cheat on anyway), but it is going to create major friction between customers and the carriers. In fact, most airlines have reduced connecting times to achieve the collective benefit of an extra trip by the aircraft at the end of the day. Late flights are not generally caused by passengers. We are not the enemy. Making 30 minute connections into 20 minutes is nuts. If they want to leave early, then adjust the connecting times, but they won't do that for the reason I mentioned before.

I know this is not going to be a popular stance, but I have to side a little bit with the airlines here. How do we define a departure time? Door closing, or pushback? Clearly, if someone comes through the door AT departure time, that person must be able to get to the seat and stow any luggage before the plane can push back.

Given the extremely full planes, with equally full overhead bins, the last few people to get on the plane are often the slowest to get into their seats. If that requires putting a carry-on into the luggage holds, then it means tagging the bag, taking it to the rampers who then have to add that last bag before closing the luggage doors.

What this means is the last person to get on the plane takes closer to five minutes than one minute.

So, I ask again, what is the definition of departure time? If we define it as "door closed," then I agree that closing the door five minutes before you said you'd close the door is a bad thing. If, OTOH, it's defined as pushback time, then the policy is completely reasonable.

Of course, this doesn't excuse the airlines for other delays. If the airline allows for a 45-minute turnaround time in their schedule, and the incoming flight is 15 minutes late, it's virtually a certainty that the flight will depart late. But nobody here has complained that airlines were closing the door while a line of 30 people was standing in front of it.

Departure time is pushback time and most (all?) airlines factor in the pushback and taxi/hold times in their published schedules. For example:
IND to ORD on UA shows a total flight time of 1 hour. Actual air time is ~30 mins. The rest of the time is for going out to the runway and the inevitable ground hold from ORD.
Also, Orange County has several flights with departure times of 6:45am, 6:50am, etc... Due to curfew restrictions, no flights may actually takeoff until 7:00am. So, you get on your plane and pushback from the gate and sit for 15 mins. or so until the curfew is over and you can be on your way.

To be honest, arrival time is more important to me than departure time. I have been on many flights that pushed back from the gate late and still got me to my connection or destination on time. IMHO too much emphasis is placed on departure time. Get me to my destination on time and I'm a happy camper.

[This message has been edited by JeffS (edited 06-22-1999).]

I think this fuss on "departure" time is a red herring. I don't care what time a plane departs. I only care when it arrives.

I regularly am on flights that depart 5, 10, 15 minutes late, and land 2, 6, 10 minutes early. (Once, on a flight from LHR to YVR, we had tail winds of 200+ knots, and picked up an hour and a half.)

If the airlines want to make the passengers happy, they need to realistically schedule their planes so that there is enough time to service the plane, change the crew, complete a full load of pax, including standbys, have the tug hooked up, etc. The problem here, of course, is that the airlines will see this as "wasted" time, with a very expensive asset sitting idle and not making money.

I vote for lobbying for on-time arrivals.

Regards,

Ken Hamer

If departure time is 9am, and you expect to arrive at the plane 30 seconds before that, then you guarantee everyone will be late departing!!

You are selfish, and unrealistic in your thinking that the world revolves around you!

I agree with the close the door 5 minutes, at least, before departure time. I also agree with serious policing of carryon luggage, consistantly performed. I also agree with enough employees at check in to insure the "early" gate closing does not interfer with passengers waiting in line to get a boarding pass (also at baggage checkin). I can not believe they are doing this. In the short term, it may cost them revenue in last minute boarders. It is great for the passengers to have the best chance to leave on time, and therefore, to arrive on time. Not a sure thing, just a better chance. This is in recognition of people complaining of late departures. I can assure the abusers of the check in times, that no one will miss them. Eventually, they will catch up with the world that revolves around the sun, not them.

Sure there are delays in the industry for all kinds of things, but that is one flight, not 200+ individual excuses why they have a reasonable excuse why everyone else has to wait. When was the last time someone boarded late and offered to "buy a round of drinks" in serious remorse for delaying everyone!

Enough of my soap box.

There are some serious issues to handle, upgrades, standbys, etc but it seems that they can just start this procedure earlier too.

ranles - I agree with you that one should arrive for their flight well in time, and not five minutes prior (when I think that the airline could even have given up your seat to someone else if you showed up just 5 minutes prior to departure). But what about connections? I had one experience where the first flight was very late, and because of the delay (which was not contributed to by any passenger) I could only make it to my connection 5 minute prior to departure after a scramble at O'hare and was not allowed to board a plane I had a boarding pass for. If they had let me board the plane I don't think that the plane would have been delayed (especially since the plane just stood at the gate for another 20 minutes). So I had to spend about three hours waiting for the next flight.

As pointed, there are far too many other factors delaying the planes. Sometimes the bags are being loaded. Sometimes they are waiting for feuling or de-icing. Sometimes they do not have enough crew. Sometimes they are filling the planes with standbys. I would say close the doors promptly on time, there is enough fudge factor built in the schedules so that if they close the doors on time, and push out a couple of minutes after that, they can easily make an on time arrival.

The worst passenger behavior I observed was not someone walking in 30 seconds prior, but by someone who had checked luggage but was not on the flight. We had to wait till the baggage was located and removed and were an hour late because of it.

A late connection is a tough one. Sometimes things are just without a real win situation. Sometimes one must sacrifice for the good of the whole. Should a plane full of people wait while someone else is added, delaying departure? I think not. Lots of people on the plane would not really care about a minor delay, while others may fear helping the late person, might result in their missing a connection. Or perhaps that kidney being too late for the operations, or the son too late to say goodbye to his dying mother (too heavy!!).

Obviously, this is not all black and white. You could argue, what if the messenger with the kidney was after the door was shut but before the plane backed out of the gate?

I do agree, when they have the plane loaded with passengers but must make a minor repair, cater the plane, still load luggage or some other event that they know will take 10-15 minutes, it does not make much sense to me to keep a "late arrival" passanger off the plane.

I wonder what issues there are for the flight attendants, pilots. etc. with such last minute passengers?

Speaking for myself, I don't understand where ranles’ concept of "selfish" comes from. Like a couple others, I am writing about connections. Sure, on outbound flights from the originating city I try to be at the gate anywhere from 60 to 30 minutes before departure. That's a no-brainer.

What is the issue are the connections. I think everyone would agree that the majority of passengers have no control over when a plane leaves or arrives. If I have 30 minutes to connect at a hub, that is pushing it. It takes 10 - 15 minutes to deplane sometimes, and some walks between gates are 10 - 20 minutes.

If the plane closes it's doors early then pax with short connection times could be stuck at the connecting city. If it's the last flight that day, she/he is stuck overnight.

I get the impression that some airlines' scheduling personnel (the folks who schedule these 30-minute layovers) aren't in sync with their operations personnel (who mandate the 5 - 10 minute early door closing). There is just no room for error in this scenario in a business prone to some type of error or delay.

In most businesses, if you sell something that doesn't work, you either make it work or provide some incentive for the customer to keep your product. You can never use the excuse that “I'm sorry, but what we sold you won't work because you were sacrificed for the good of the other customers". Unfortunately, lost time is difficult to put a value on and airlines definitely don’t appreciate a pax’s lost time as much as the pax does.

I know weather delays are not the airlines' fault and I cut them a lot of slack. I realize equipment won't work from time to time but since it does the majority of the time I don't complain (loudly). But please, when you try to fix a problem like late departures, don't create new ones with your solution.

Kind of like what KenHamer said, "I don't care what time a plane departs. I only care when it arrives" [and that I'm on it].

Sorry, I was not more clear. I do not know whose fault it is when a connecting flight comes in late and one does not have enough time to get to the next flight. My point is that it is not the fault of the passengers already on the flight. Why should all of those people be delayed, for one?

Second point is a correction of closing the doors early. If that is the new rule, close the door 5 minutes before backing out of the gate, then that is THE time. One showing up 4 minutes before gate departure is LATE,not just in time.

If it were me I would be very upset having missed my connection, however as stated before, that is not good enough (selfish) to condemn others to be late on my account.

The statement that it does not matter when the plane leaves, but when it gets there has two flaws. First, if one does not care when the plane leaves, then why do we have this thread? Let the plane leave 50 minutes early and still say that. Secondly, it is convenient to say but the later the flight leaves, the more likely it will be late (can we agree on that?)

ranles, your assumption is that if the plane door closes on time, the flight will be late. Not so in my opinion.

Rather than close the doors five minutes early, why don't airlines do the honest thing: schedule the flight 5 minutes earlier?

Regards,

Ken Hamer

This is the honest way. Departure is when they back out of the gate (I believe). You assume that they should keep the doors open until that time. It is not possible to do both. Perhaps this is a recognition of that fact. This really is a half full have empty discussion.

Exactly, more different definitions for the same words, created by/for the airlines. I yearn for the simple old more uniform definitions, when we could more easily understand each other! And knew when to board the plane as well as when it was taking off!

Instead of closing doors early to put the blame on others, why don't the airlines keep to their schedules?

Okay, you win.

The airlines are the blame for everything. Passengers should not be expected to board the plane in time for them to get completely in place, the FA to do their job, the doors get shut, and the plane get clearance to back from the gate.

Those that do abide by the above, should be happy to wait while others, "less early" to board at the last second. After they are more important that the other 200 passengers. I think that is what I hear.

If I get to the resteraunt two minutes before closing time is it reasonable to expect them to serve me from the full menu? After all I got there before they closed. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Jeffs, you will be disappointed if you mean a real place to eat. A fast food will have all the menu (no, that is not right, go to McDonalds at 10:28am and order breakfast. If they have already started cleaning the grill, true in most cases, they will not make hotcakes for you). A real place will have very few items left, as it is necessary to minimize the waste. BUT YOU MISS THE POINT, all the other resturant guests are not asked to stay longer (and miss the opera or whatever) because you come in at the last minute. In many resturants, you will be turned away.

OK, I was evidently a little too obtuse. I was simply trying to make a simple parallel ( not very well I guess) to illustrate the point that you should not show up 2 minutes before departure time and expect to get on the plane. Nuff said. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

New York Times

Two Airlines Seek Timelier Passengers

Passengers on United Airlines and US Airways flights who are running late to the airport will have to run a bit faster to make their flights under new policies designed to have more planes arrive at their destinations on time. Both airlines are trying to close plane doors five minutes before the scheduled departure time.

"The idea is to improve on-time performance and also to reduce the hassle in the boarding process," said Joe Hopkins, a United spokesman. "If you get the plane out on time, it is going to arrive on time, which all our market research says is very important to customers. And why penalize the 179 people already on for one person?"

Under United's Time to Go policy, all ticketed passengers should be seated 10 minutes before the scheduled departure time, giving gate agents five minutes to board standby passengers and handle standby upgrades to first class. Each airline sets its own rules on when passengers with reservations can lose their seats. At United, reservations are subject to cancellation 20 minutes before departure, Mr. Hopkins said. The US Airways deadline is 10 minutes.

US Airways adopted the new rules on June 15, copying a policy United Airlines began in April.

They should waive the policy for connecting passengers if the first flight is late. I had one experience where the first flight was late (airline fault) and could not board the next flight even though I arrived 5 minutes before departure.

That IS a shame. You'd think they would surely waive the rule in such circumstances and it will in fact cost the airlines as well as the pax! Was this international or just domestic as I suspect?

This was domestic on United (last year, before they had this policy, while I was 1K with United). They closed the door more than 5 minutes before the flight, plane then stood at the gate for another 20 minutes.

Sadly, that's what I thought. It doesn't seem to make sense. All that aggravation for nothing!

I was highly ticked off, but not quite as ticked off as someone in a party of four, who was yelling and arguing with the gate agent. The gate agent told him that this was being done .... on request from the 1K members. I did not know whether to laugh or cry.