TalkBoard Topics - Motion Failed to Pass: Restore Post Count Credit for Omni

Moved by SkiAdcock and seconded by Cholula:

At present post counts differ for all the Flyertalk forums and for the OMNI forums. The TalkBoard believes that FlyerTalk would benefit from a common posting process for these forums (Coupon Connection excepted due to the uniqueness/mandate of the forum).

The TalkBoard recommends that OMNI posts count towards posting total.

This vote will close on August 8, 11 at 6:01 PM Pacific Time or after all TalkBoard members have registered their vote, whichever comes first.

Per the TalkBoard Guidelines:
The purpose of posting voting topics in the public TalkBoard Topics forum is to solicit member feedback on any motions that are up for a vote and to allow for comments after a vote is made. It is at the sole discretion of the individual TalkBoard members whether they choose to post in the public discussion thread, there being no requirement to do so.

So while there is already a thread and discussion on this general topic (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1219013-suggestion-allow-post-counts-omni-pr.html) and it is safe to assume that TalkBoard members have reviewed that thread, this thread is about this specific motion. Please feel free to post questions, comments or any other sort of feedback.

A motion shall pass if two-thirds of TalkBoard members participating in that vote vote ‘yes.’

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Update: motion failed 4-5

Voting yes: Cholula, jackal, SkiAdcock, UA_Flyer

Voting no: bhatnasx, lucky9876coins, Markie, nsx, Spiff

SkiAdcock and Cholula Thank You for moving this suggestion forward and bringing it to vote. After some of recent comments on the original thread, I thought this was dead...

Pass or not (which I hope doesn't happen) I thank the both of you for keeping the suggestion alive. ^ ^

My view is that as OMNI is, by it's very nature not central to Flyertalk, (points and miles anyone), I do not support allowing OMNI posts to count where this would have the effect of conferring the title 'Evangelist' on people who have posted 180 times on Miles and Points and the 9820 times in OMNI when the board is about Miles and Points. (Accept this is an extreme example).

Therefore on this occasion I will not be supporting this motion.

Is one allowed to mention MilePoint here?

If post counts are intended to have any utility in assessing (in however broad a sense) the contribution that a member has made to FT, MilePoint amply demonstrates why OMNI posts should not be counted.

Post counts there (and the status consequently earned) are utterly meaningless in very many cases, because of a combination of counting all posts in every thread and the MilePoint innovation of giving people positive incentives to increase their post counts by any means.

Absoultely they should count. Omni is every bit a part of flyertalk as the community boards are.
Reinstate post counts for OMNI, please.

Is one allowed to mention MilePoint here?

If post counts are intended to have any utility in assessing (in however broad a sense) the contribution that a member has made to FT, MilePoint amply demonstrates why OMNI posts should not be counted.

Post counts there (and the status consequently earned) are utterly meaningless in very many cases, because of a combination of counting all posts in every thread and the MilePoint innovation of giving people positive incentives to increase their post counts by any means.

If people are allowed to post OT threads in other forums, then why should Omni not count? Wasn’t Omni created for the purpose of OT?
Some users say, posts count don’t mean anything to them, then why are they against allowing post counts in Omni? I get the feeling the evangelist status under their name means something for a certain few..

Is one allowed to mention MilePoint here?

If post counts are intended to have any utility in assessing (in however broad a sense) the contribution that a member has made to FT, MilePoint amply demonstrates why OMNI posts should not be counted.

Post counts there (and the status consequently earned) are utterly meaningless in very many cases, because of a combination of counting all posts in every thread and the MilePoint innovation of giving people positive incentives to increase their post counts by any means.
I agree wholeheartedly. MilePoint is a good example of why this should not be done on FT which remains a more credible website.

Let them count.

If people are allowed to post OT threads in other forums, then why should Omni not count?Because OT threads in other forums are usually limited in number and strictly controlled, and their effect on members' post counts is correspondingly limited. Post counts are not a precise scientific measure, but they are a decent proportionate indication which is not skewed by a few OT posts in a few OT threads.

OMNI is a completely different ballgame.Some users say, posts count don’t mean anything to them ...I am not one of them. In the present system, post counts do mean something. At present, if a FTer has a substantial post count and they are generally respected within the community, that post count is a significant piece of information.

If you add in all the OMNI posts, post counts will become pretty much meaningless.

Because OT threads in other forums are usually limited in number and strictly controlled, and their effect on members' post counts is correspondingly limited. Post counts are not a precise scientific measure, but they are a decent proportionate indication which is not skewed by a few OT posts in a few OT threads.

Have you seen this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/1159016-community-lounge-good-m-e-everybody-enjoy-your-stay-us.html)? The top poster has 1,337 posts.. How is this any different than counting numbers?

OMNI is a completely different ballgame.I am not one of them. In the present system, post counts do mean something. At present, if a FTer has a substantial post count and they are generally respected within the community, that post count is a significant piece of information.

If you add in all the OMNI posts, post counts will become pretty much meaningless.

Are people that shallow to think posting status means something to others? You might be surprised to learn how many of these "respected" posters earned their status in Omni.

If people are allowed to post OT threads in other forums, then why should Omni not count? Wasn’t Omni created for the purpose of OT?

I agree. Since there are lounge-type threads in many forums, where posters are allowed to post OT things, and their posts count, why should posts in OMNI not count?

Have you seen this thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/1159016-community-lounge-good-m-e-everybody-enjoy-your-stay-us.html)? The top poster has 1,337 posts.. How is this any different than counting numbers?Why take one example of a bad thing, and propose to make it a thousand times worse? Your example provides an illustration of why, if it were technically possible, I think that such lounge threads also ought not to count.Are people that shallow to think posting status means something to others?Not status, but post count. Personally, I could not care less if status was abolished.

However, post count does have some meaning, even if it is not perfect and not to be relied on in isolation.

There are lounge threads in a number of forums... and "contests" that were run where posts were encouraged... I personally do not see why OMNI posts should be treated different than those posts.

I would encourage a "Yes" vote on this motion.

I'll state my support of this again since this is the official thread :)



Omni posts used to count, until some people decided to create threads and made thousands of posts in "counting" threads. There's more than 1 evangelist made by just counting. While I'm all for fun and games, these type threads should be moved to an Omni Social area where posts don't count that contain only these threads.


Contributions to Omni-lite (not P/R) are just as valuable as any other post on FT. There are very few places on the internet where you can get good/correct information in a short period of time. Even those people who claim Omni shouldn't exist at all on FT eventually show up there when they need a fast/good answer.


Images were allowed in Omni because the TB wanted to make it more like the rest of FT, which allows them. Posts also count in the rest of FT, so why is this even an issue - it's either like the rest of FT or it's not.


Posts count in Lounge threads and contain far far less good information than Omni. Again, I can think of at least one evangelist that got the title by posting in lounge threads and almost nowhere else on FT, except maybe a contest thread in Community. Why is my post in Omni, which I spent a good deal of time researching and writing, helping another member valued less by the community than someone simply posting a "good morning" in a lounge thread? IMHO, all lounge threads should be moved to the social area mentioned above.


If we don't want to reward Omni P/R-only posters with titles/post count, do not allow them to count in Omni P/R and remove the posts from their count. The vast majority of those people do not post anywhere else on FT and only go into to FT to troll. Many of them are the reason the Omnis have such a bad reputation.


It has been said that Omni is one of the most popular forums on FT. If that is the case, why are the people posting there treated like second class citizens?


Thank you for brining this motion forward ^^

Why take one example of a bad thing, and propose to make it a thousand times worse? Your example provides an illustration of why, if it were technically possible, I think that such lounge threads also ought not to count.Not status, but post count. Personally, I could not care less if status was abolished.

However, post count does have some meaning, even if it is not perfect and not to be relied on in isolation.

If I want to be anal about this, I can go and find posts by you and pretty much everyone else that are OT to miles and points.. If FT should be exclusively miles and points then you probably would have to go and delete half of the content on this site ;)

Leave everything as is, just allow Omni to count and instead of doing away with post counts, the status should be done away with..

Just for clarification. If this motion pasts, it applies to both of the Omni forums. As mentioned by IB-Dick in the former discussion thread, there is no way for the software to count one subforum but not the other.

Cheers.

I think communities by their very nature have different interests, and OMNI reflects those interests other than flying. People who are travelling (or, on the flip side, wish they were travelling, instead of being at a desk) pass the time discussing, just as in real life, politics, religion, which is the most shagworth celeb going etc etc. Their views are no more or less valuable (or directly related to travel) than someone posting about, say, what to do with quinoa, the best apple variety, or how much food they cram down their gullets at a buffet (Dining Buzz front page today) or 'thick or thin' eyebrows, opinions on mineral make up, or which loo stall it is or is not ok to use (Women Travelers front page today).

People on this forum, by and large, travel. I think it helps to know what other views, contrary to ones own, exist, and whilst you may not agree with them, any or all of the time, I like to think it makes us realize the world is a pretty big place, and what is 'obvious' or 'normal' to us, isn't necessarily the case. If that doesn't help world travelers, what does?

I vote 'let the posts count', as I really don't see the boards as split as a 'relevant to travel' and 'not relevant to travel' division anyway - so if some do, they all should. I'd also be fine with removing posts counts all together.

No. OMNI is such a different world and isn't central to the mission of FT. I enjoy the discussions in those forums, but the post counts should reflect contribution to the "flyer" part of FlyerTalk.

I'm inclined to vote "NO" as well, but with one caveat: if all those stupid "counting" and other post-padding threads could be made to not count (or better yet, disappear), then by all means, make the posts count. But I realize that this is not possible due to the software's limitations, as SkiAdcock pointed out.

The funny thing is, I remember being outraged, OUTRAGED I tell ya, when the OMNI change was made years ago. Now, I don't want it changed back. I guess I just don't like change. :D

Omni posts used to count, until some people decided to create threads and made thousands of posts in "counting" threads. There's more than 1 evangelist made by just counting. While I'm all for fun and games, these type threads should be moved to an Omni Social area where posts don't count that contain only these threads.

We're discussing allowing OMNI posts to count, not counting game threads, lounge threads, or any other kind of thread. Arguments in the form of "We should let OMNI posts count because we let X posts count" are circular and impossible to resolve in the context of a vote on OMNI posts.

Let counting OMNI posts stand or fall on its own merits.

Contributions to Omni-lite (not P/R) are just as valuable as any other post on FT. There are very few places on the internet where you can get good/correct information in a short period of time. Even those people who claim Omni shouldn't exist at all on FT eventually show up there when they need a fast/good answer.

FT is about travel and travel-related issues. By definition, OMNI is OT to this central mission. When I come to FT, I come to provide and benefit from travel and travel-related knowledge. It is entirely irrelevant to me how much FTers know about plumbing, asteriods, which antacid words best, how to breakup with one's significant other, etc.

By the way, there are thousands of boards all over the internet where you can get as you put it "good/correct information in a short period of time" about all kinds of subjects. FT is one of them vis-a-vis travel and travel-related topics. There are plenty of other boards for other things.

Images were allowed in Omni because the TB wanted to make it more like the rest of FT, which allows them. Posts also count in the rest of FT, so why is this even an issue - it's either like the rest of FT or it's not.

See above: Let counting OMNI posts stand or fall on its own merits.

Posts count in Lounge threads and contain far far less good information than Omni. Again, I can think of at least one evangelist that got the title by posting in lounge threads and almost nowhere else on FT, except maybe a contest thread in Community. Why is my post in Omni, which I spent a good deal of time researching and writing, helping another member valued less by the community than someone simply posting a "good morning" in a lounge thread? IMHO, all lounge threads should be moved to the social area mentioned above.

See above: Let counting OMNI posts stand or fall on its own merits.

If we don't want to reward Omni P/R-only posters with titles/post count, do not allow them to count in Omni P/R and remove the posts from their count. The vast majority of those people do not post anywhere else on FT and only go into to FT to troll. Many of them are the reason the Omnis have such a bad reputation.

See above: Let counting OMNI posts stand or fall on its own merits.

It has been said that Omni is one of the most popular forums on FT. If that is the case, why are the people posting there treated like second class citizens?

One of the most popular formus? Perhaps. So okay, let's take a look at the threads in OMNI that make it so popular. Here are the top 10 threads of all time ranked descending by post count:



Newest Omni Waste Of Time - Count Down From 100,000
Newest OMNI waste of time - count UP to 100,000
:rolleyes: [merged threads]
People Association Thread
Food association thread
Yankees vs. Red Sox 2007
Music association thread
Make up a lie about the previous poster...
Newest OMNI Waste the times - Count down 500,000
The "misunderstand this post and reply" thread


Yes, there are lots of other threads with more substance than these. But frankly they are literally drowing in a sea of drivel. For heaven's sake, there are nearly a hundred threads in OMNI with "waste of time" in the title of the thread itself.

So with all due respect, OMNI may be popular, but as a rule it's not because of the substance.

My vote is a strong no -- do not include OMNI posts in the post count.

See above: Let counting OMNI posts stand or fall on its own merits.The Talk Board, by virtue of allowing images in Omni and stating it was to be treated like the rest of FT, already decided that Omni was just the same as the rest of FT.

As well, what does Dining Buzz have to do with the core mission of this site?

The arguments presented are listed as examples of different treatments for the same type posts. That is inconsistent and sends mixed messages.

I'll state my support of this again since this is the official thread :)



Omni posts used to count, until some people decided to create threads and made thousands of posts in "counting" threads. There's more than 1 evangelist made by just counting. While I'm all for fun and games, these type threads should be moved to an Omni Social area where posts don't count that contain only these threads.


Contributions to Omni-lite (not P/R) are just as valuable as any other post on FT. There are very few places on the internet where you can get good/correct information in a short period of time. Even those people who claim Omni shouldn't exist at all on FT eventually show up there when they need a fast/good answer.


Images were allowed in Omni because the TB wanted to make it more like the rest of FT, which allows them. Posts also count in the rest of FT, so why is this even an issue - it's either like the rest of FT or it's not.


Posts count in Lounge threads and contain far far less good information than Omni. Again, I can think of at least one evangelist that got the title by posting in lounge threads and almost nowhere else on FT, except maybe a contest thread in Community. Why is my post in Omni, which I spent a good deal of time researching and writing, helping another member valued less by the community than someone simply posting a "good morning" in a lounge thread? IMHO, all lounge threads should be moved to the social area mentioned above.


If we don't want to reward Omni P/R-only posters with titles/post count, do not allow them to count in Omni P/R and remove the posts from their count. The vast majority of those people do not post anywhere else on FT and only go into to FT to troll. Many of them are the reason the Omnis have such a bad reputation.


It has been said that Omni is one of the most popular forums on FT. If that is the case, why are the people posting there treated like second class citizens?


Thank you for brining this motion forward ^^

I think that Mary has some very good points. I've learned as much good stuff on Omni as I have on any other forum. But I also understand why people wouldn't want the counting threads and the like to count.

I think that I support OMNI counting because it eliminates a disparity within the community. I've not been here very long but I think that many of the high post count people who've been here a long time have post counts that include Onmi posts from the time before Omni counting was stopped. That creates a potentially false image of the value of "older" contributor vs a newer one. But then this is also an argument to avoid linking post count to contributor value (which is what makes MilePoint's "like" system a good idea in theory).

I wish there were a way to separately state the counts. It would be nice to have a "fluff" count and a "real" count.

Thanks for bringing this forward. I think that it's a great follow-up to Omni masking.

FWIW, here's my post in the private TB forum:

My rational for favoring restoring OMNI post count is in part due to the lounge threads which are numerous and 98% OMNI-like in their content IMO.

Also, both a member's post count and Evangelist status "ain't what it used to be" IMO. Randy ran enough contests in CBuzz! before he left that some folks were able to rack up over ten thousand posts in just a few weeks and those posts still stand.

The post-inflating barn door has been opened long enough and in enough places here on FT that I don't see that restoring post count in the OMNI's...the most popular forum on FT....is going to make a whole lot of difference in the scheme of things.

This is a motion that, while I favor it somewhat, is not a major issue for me. I rarely ever post in the OMNI's but I do make note of comments from the regulars there and this seems to be something that most favor.

So since I really don't care a lot one way or the other but am aware of a number of folks who favor it, my plans are to vote in favor of the motion.

The Talk Board, by virtue of allowing images in Omni and stating it was to be treated like the rest of FT, already decided that Omni was just the same as the rest of FT.

Sorry, I don't read it that way at all. The resolution says simply "Allow Images in both OMNI and OMNI/PR." It may be the case that some people justified their arguments in favor of the resolution by saying that "Omni was just the same as the rest of FT," but it certianly wasn't part of the resolution so I don't see how it serves as a "precedent" that OMNI must now be treated exactly like the rest of FT. And if we want to go down that road, how can you claim OMNI is "the same" as the rest of FT when it, like some other boards but not others, are restricted?

Again, if you want to make the case that OMNI posts should be allowed to count, that's fine, but then I suggest you make the case on its own merits rather than pleas for consistency.

As well, what does Dining Buzz have to do with the core mission of this site?

Part of traveling to other places is eating in restaurants, sampling the local cuisine, etc.

The arguments presented are listed as examples of different treatments for the same type posts. That is inconsistent and sends mixed messages.

What's the mixed message? As our Founding Father wrote (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/345655-few-updates.html):

FlyerTalk's original mission and intent was to serve as a place where frequent travelers could exchange, in a positive manner, information and opinions about frequent flyer miles and points and the greater topic of travel. This is still our mission and we want to acknowledge those members who contribute to making FlyerTalk the leading online community of frequent travelers. OMNI, as many of you know, is more of a member requested sideline, and while it serves to build community bonds, it certainly veers from the core FlyerTalk topics.

If you would like to discuss this in further detail, there is a thread in Omni where I would gladly provide more details and rationale.

I will not take up more space in this thread going back and forth over things that have been stated numerous times in other threads about Omni and the way it is treated.

I support Omni posts counting, but realize it's not the end of the world if they don't. EOW only occurs if FT ceases to exist at all ;) :D

This topic has come up before, & at dif times Omni posts have counted/not counted, but the fact that it has come up & people do feel strongly about it & being a rep of TB & feeling it deserved further consideration, I decided to make the proposal.

In doing some homework (aka, reading the current discussion thread as well as going back & reading public & private TB discussion threads re: the topic from a few years ago), I came across the following by wr_schwab, which made me think more favorably re: Omni posts counting/he made good points (as have others).

"I agree with the motion to include OMNI posts in post counts.

Well it comes down to a couple of reasons.

There has been arguments in past debates, and I am sure they will occur again, that people use the post count as a measure of how much experience they have on a given topic.

I have been a member of too many different forums to count on a wide variety of topics since I first logged onto the Internet many years ago. It has been my experience, is that if you spend any time at all on any forum you quickly learn who are the knowledgable people on that topic, and which ones are full of themselves, regardless of how many posts they actually have.

FlyerTalk is a very diverse community, full of a wide array of people each of which have different opinions and positions on just about everything. We have some people who post a lot on the USAir forum, others on the Delta forum, others on the CommunityBuzz, and believe it or not we even have people who post alot on OMNI

Part of being a community is to help ensure that there is a thread that binds us all together. For many of this, it is the love of travel. Others, it might be a good debate on the merits or faults of the TSA or it might involve the "Lost" 2008 season and the affect of the writer's strike will have on it.

The post count helps unify the community as a whole because it provides a record of how active you have been in the community. It means nothing else, well it might mean that you have a lot of time to spare if it is really high, but it doesn't mean anything truely important. A community that the only thing that I am reasonably certain about its members is our collective obsession about counting miles and points.

Like it or not, OMNI is part of the FT Community. It is like the bar in some back alley on the wrong side of the tracks. Everyone knows it is there, and some people would bulldoze the entire area to get rid of it if they could. Since it is part of the FT Community, why should someone's contribution there not count towards the total?

Well, it has been said that OMNI doesn't advance FT primary mission. Well, maybe that is true, but at the same time you can say that about Only Randy Petersen, Technical Issues, & Suggestions. Their primary focus is not travel related. Their primary focus is something else, in this case helping to improve FT, yet we count those posts because we recognize that there is a benefit to having them and to recognize a member's participation in those areas.

OMNI serves a purpose as well, it is the escape valve for everything else. In the time I have been a member of FT, I have met a number of different people at FT. As much as I hate to admit it, neither them or I can talk about travel 100% of the time. Does that mean I should go somewhere else to talk about the new Star Trek movie?

No, I take the conversation to OMNI where I can talk about it with the people I have meet in the travel forums on FT, so you can see it does serve a purpose and we should continue to recognize their participation in the community.

There is what is known as OMNI Waste of Time games. You know the ones, count down from 100,000, Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member To Post? An OMNI Game...the ones that can be downright annoying at times, but incredibly useful when you are sitting in an airport trying to kill some time. Again, they serve a purpose. Should these posts counts?

I look at these posts as being the OMNI equivalent of the The 6969 post club! and the various Happy Birthday threads in CommunityBuzz. Are they annoying? I think both these type of threads in CommunityBuzz and in OMNI are annoying at times. Do I think that should count towards the post total? I think it would be hypocritical of me to suggest otherwise. Just because I don't like a certain aspect of it, doesn't mean we should through the baby out with the bathwater."

Cheers.

What's the mixed message? As our Founding Father wrote (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/345655-few-updates.html):

Yawn. The guy seems to be long gone (his profile indicates that his last activity was "Apr 17, 11 10:39 pm.").

Why anyone cares what he thinks about a place he has apparently abandoned is beyond me.

In any event, and back to the topic at hand, I say let all posts count or don't let any of them count. I've posted more fluff stuff in a lounge thread than in OMNI and get credit for it, and I've posted more substantive stuff in a lounge thread than in OMNI and had the post deleted due to alleged "post padding." There's apparently no rationale behind which post is worthy of a post count beyond "Someone just wants it to be that way," which doesn't seem to be particularly justifiable when the "someone" or "someones" have, for all intents and purposes, moved on to other places.

I do not understand this... just make both forums parent forums and not subforums... and they should be able to be treated differently.

Just for clarification. If this motion pasts, it applies to both of the Omni forums. As mentioned by IB-Dick in the former discussion thread, there is no way for the software to count one subforum but not the other.

Cheers.

If you would like to discuss this in further detail, there is a thread in Omni where I would gladly provide more details and rationale.

I will not take up more space in this thread going back and forth over things that have been stated numerous times in other threads about Omni and the way it is treated.

I don't even know how to respond to this. I was under the impression that this thread was specifically designed to discuss this topic in further detail. Apparently I was mistaken. :td:

I say allow them to count.....OMNI is enough of a red headed step child (read dumping ground) as it is.

I do not understand this... just make both forums parent forums and not subforums... and they should be able to be treated differently.

And that can be a separate thread or proposal at some point, but isn't the topic of this one. ;)

Cheers.

So while there is already a thread and discussion on this general topic (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1219013-suggestion-allow-post-counts-omni-pr.html) and it is safe to assume that TalkBoard members have reviewed that thread, this thread is about this specific motion. Please feel free to post questions, comments or any other sort of feedback.


I don't even know how to respond to this. I was under the impression that this thread was specifically designed to discuss this topic in further detail. Apparently I was mistaken. :td:IMHO, this thread is not to debate the responses of other people's opinions. I'm happy to discuss mine with you elsewhere.

I could be wrong in my interpretation, but that is why I offered the Omni thread.

FWIW, here's my post in the private TB forum:

Can I suggest amending this motion to include doing away with the evangelist status?

It looks to me like earning evangelist status gives these users some sort of respect that a non evangelist user might get.. So why not do away with it?

How about an asterisk system for those that earned it posting outside miles and points.. ;)

I think that Mary has some very good points. I've learned as much good stuff on Omni as I have on any other forum.

Completely agree. FT is a *community* and Omni is part of that community.


I've not been here very long but I think that many of the high post count people who've been here a long time have post counts that include Onmi posts from the time before Omni counting was stopped. That creates a potentially false image of the value of "older" contributor vs a newer one.

I disagree about this, for this reason: My non-Omni posts have mostly been concentrated in the Delta, Continental and SPG forums, with a few here and there elsewhere. Yet (for those who are concerned about such things) if I were to post in the Cathay forum (which I don't believe that I ever have), would not those very non-Omni posts give a "potentially false" image of me as a contributor, b/c I have lots of non-Omni posts, but zero experience with Cathay?

That's what I think takes the air out of the "Apostheid" balloon. Nobody should give any thought to post count when judging the content of someone's post, rather they should base their judgement on the quality of the advice in the post. @:-)


I wish there were a way to separately state the counts. It would be nice to have a "fluff" count and a "real" count.


That would be useful if a user's posts could be broken down by section, (e.g. Delta: 299, Virgin: 92, SPG: 5466, etc.)

Until then let ALL the posts count!

O/H

Can I suggest amending this motion to include doing away with the evangelist status?

And that can be a separate thread or proposal at some point, but isn't the topic of this one. ;)

Cheers.

No. OMNI posts should not count.

Neither should lounge posts. But that's a different story. Where moderators have permitted lounge posts (I assume so that the community of loungers have some ties), we cannot change now.

But that does not mean we should allow another forum to have posts count. That is what one calls "slippery slope".

Because OT threads in other forums are usually limited in number and strictly controlled, and their effect on members' post counts is correspondingly limited. Post counts are not a precise scientific measure, but they are a decent proportionate indication which is not skewed by a few OT posts in a few OT threads.

OMNI is a completely different ballgame.I am not one of them. In the present system, post counts do mean something. At present, if a FTer has a substantial post count and they are generally respected within the community, that post count is a significant piece of information.

If you add in all the OMNI posts, post counts will become pretty much meaningless.I agree and by extension would prefer that posts in OMNI continue not to register against a member's post count.

The side argument about lounge threads is an interesting parallel but this has not been addressed thus far by our Talk Board, and thus may be tackled separately. Let's try not cloud the issue.

No. OMNI posts should not count.

Neither should lounge posts. But that's a different story. Where moderators have permitted lounge posts (I assume so that the community of loungers have some ties), we cannot change now.

But that does not mean we should allow another forum to have posts count. That is what one calls "slippery slope".

When there was discussion about adding images to OMNI, one of the arguments for it was that allowing images in OMNI is simply treating OMNI the same way the rest of FT is treated. As such, that's all this would be doing would be to treat OMNI the same way as the rest of FT.

The Talk Board, by virtue of allowing images in Omni and stating it was to be treated like the rest of FT, already decided that Omni was just the same as the rest of FT.

As well, what does Dining Buzz have to do with the core mission of this site?

The arguments presented are listed as examples of different treatments for the same type posts. That is inconsistent and sends mixed messages.

Seriously? Dining Buzz has great information related to dining while traveling. I seek out recommendations and insight on that forum anytime I hit the road. Best and worst steakhouses, best and worst bars/places for a drink, and other, very travel-related threads. But that's a different discussion for a different day.

Back on topic, I still say "no" to including OMNI posts in the post count.

I agree and by extension would prefer that posts in OMNI continue not to register against a member's post count.

The side argument about lounge threads is an interesting parallel but this has not been addressed thus far by our Talk Board, and thus may be tackled separately. Let's try not cloud the issue.


You mean threads like this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1237579-ot-baec-ft-members-what-do-you-actually-look-like-10.html#post16761636)?

Now if I were to start this same thread in Omni wouldn’t you say it should be counted as well?

The side argument about lounge threads is an interesting parallel but this has not been addressed thus far by our Talk Board, and thus may be tackled separately. Let's try not cloud the issue.

Whether lounge threads are allowed to stay in a forum is up to the mods of that forum. So far they seem to have allowed them. Whether they should have way back when is a separate issue, but one decided by the mods and/or Randy. I'd be surprised if the mods decide at this point to move the lounge threads to Omni (as has been suggested by some), but that's their decision to make & not TB's.

Cheers.

Whether lounge threads are allowed to stay in a forum is up to the mods of that forum. So far they seem to have allowed them. Whether they should have way back when is a separate issue, but one decided by the mods and/or Randy. I'd be surprised if the mods decide at this point to move the lounge threads to Omni (as has been suggested by some), but that's their decision to make & not TB's.

Cheers.Surely setting the guiding principles is something for TalkBoard. I agree the method of implementation is something for individual forum mods to address.

You mean threads like this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1237579-ot-baec-ft-members-what-do-you-actually-look-like-10.html#post16761636)?

Now if I were to start this same thread in Omni wouldn’t you say it should be counted as well?See, you're clouding the issue. ;) This vote is whether OMNI posts should (or should not) register against a member's post count.

If there are any strategic concerns relating to lounge style threads then that is something our TalkBoard may wish to raise separately. Thus far, TalkBoard has not tabled any such motion relating to lounge threads or lounge style threads.

Anyone else notice that participation in the silly counting and :rolleyes: threads dropped way down when they no longer contributed to one's post count?

I think that posts in Omni should only be counted if and when the silly games threads (as listed upthread) are separated out into their own ignorable forum. (Especially the counting threads - trying for 500,000 posts? :rolleyes:)

When there was discussion about adding images to OMNI, one of the arguments for it was that allowing images in OMNI is simply treating OMNI the same way the rest of FT is treated. As such, that's all this would be doing would be to treat OMNI the same way as the rest of FT.

I disagree. OMNI shouldn't be treated the same as any other forum IMHO as it's controversial nature makes it as "unique" a forum as CC which was specifically excluded in the motion wording. I do not support the passage of this motion.

They should count, IMHO.

Let them count. But I have said it before, is there a mechanism for only allowing them to count once you have posted, for example, 100 times in non-OMNI threads. If not, just let them count.

Is this where you say yay/nay to this question anyway?

Should not count. After all it is called FlyerTalk; don't count anything unrelated to flying/travelling.

If that helps boosting some people's ego, have two separate counters.

They shouldn't count. And I am unanimous in that! Seems rather stooooopid for them to count. A pissing contest on some political crap turns into 100 posts. A "four word" story turns into 1000. A "three word" story, even more. But then, really, I don't give much of a flying fornication if they end up counting or not. It isn't going to make any important parts grow any larger if my post count increases, or increase my bank balances, or make my dog stop looking at me for treats when he knows he just had one.

However, if it makes my foot pain go away, I hope they count.

Let them count. But I have said it before, is there a mechanism for only allowing them to count once you have posted, for example, 100 times in non-OMNI threads. If not, just let them count.

Is this where you say yay/nay to this question anyway?

I thought you couldn't access OMNI until you had a certain number of posts?

FWIW, I am voting against this motion.

I've posted in the other threads over the years my main reasoning, but a quick summary:

1) I believe if we have titles, titles should mean something and counting to titles reduces the meaning. (Personally, I also believe the "Lounge" threads aren't really a great idea and would prefer to see posts there not count, but that IMHO - I'm not a moderator anymore, so MHO doesn't mean much in that regard I guess).

2) OMNI & OMNI PR are extensions of FlyerTalk, and whereas I see their value to the community, they are not miles & points related - or evenly miles & points loosely related.

3) Piggybacking 3 above, as wrong as it may be, folks do, IMHO, especially newbies, view post counts as a "trust" level - I think posts should reflect participation on the miles & points side of FT.

4) As far as how the motion is worded, it doesn't make sense to me to have a motion that suggests that OMNI be added for post counts & coupon connection not be. Coupon Connection, IMHO, is more points/miles related than OMNI is - and with the bumping rules, etc, in CC, I don't see why that, if there were to be change, that wouldn't be included in such a change.

I would like to see post counts restored for OMNI and OMNI/PR. I think both represent an important part of what makes FT a community. However, I would also like to see the counting threads, and other similar threads, that contribute nothing to the community banned if post counts are restored.

Again, if you want to make the case that OMNI posts should be allowed to count, that's fine, but then I suggest you make the case on its own merits rather than pleas for consistency.

Part of traveling to other places is eating in restaurants, sampling the local cuisine, etc.



And I would say that part of travelling to other places is understanding the local culture, be it sports team rivalries, attitudes towards contentious issues such as affirmative action, abortion, same sex marriage etc, and the politics of the destination.

I'm a little amazed and disturbed that some are fighting for more "credit" for their OMNI posts. As I just mentioned to a friend, I get a little more embarrassed the higher my FT post count goes. I feel like covering it up when my wife is near the screen. It's like getting "credit" for hanging out in bars.

One thought that occurs to me, is that sponsorship (the advertisments many of us see when we post) are presumably based on some sort of post counting - and I am guessing for those purposes, number of users, number of posts etc do include OMNI. If FT benefits from those posts (in generating ad revenue) then shouldn't they count for the users that make them too? After all, the numbers they could quote to those sponors would be a lot lower without OMNI.

Does it really matter?

Personally I don't care one way or the other, but there seems to be two notions here that I have to say I don't agree with.

First, a person's post count means something.

That's just not the case. There is little, if any, correlation between a person's post count and their value to the community. There are people who have been here a year or two and have multiple times the amount of posts somebody who has been here five or ten years. Does it make them any more respected or valuable? I most certainly don't believe so.

Second notion, the one that really cracks me up, is that Omni is the off topic nothing to do with points and miles, while the rest of the place does and their posts should count. That's just simply no longer true.

There are many forums out there where anything from half to 99% of their posts have nothing to do with points and miles. SPAM for example is so removed from it's description it's laughable. Most of Dining Buzz has nothing to do with travel or points and miles unless you really stretch it.

Virtually everything in News Stand is a duplicate thread of Safety and Security and other forums, but nobody calls that post count padding. Online booking has a thread that's dozens of pages long and it's people saying you are a jerk and others saying you are a nutjob, yet those posts count. Travel Technology is a stretch to say it's all travel related,

I say let it count, but I'll also say it really doesn't matter one way or the other, Post count only serves one purpose to me, to welcome new posters to Flyertalk, after that it's meaningless.

I pretty much ambivalent about the issue. What I'd rather see happen is get rid of post counts altogether (in all forums), which I doubt is ever going to happen.

4) As far as how the motion is worded, it doesn't make sense to me to have a motion that suggests that OMNI be added for post counts & coupon connection not be. Coupon Connection, IMHO, is more points/miles related than OMNI is - and with the bumping rules, etc, in CC, I don't see why that, if there were to be change, that wouldn't be included in such a change.

The motion pertains to Omni posts counting because that's what TB members asked us to consider (see the suggestion thread in this same forum).

The motion didn't include CC because neither FTers nor TB members have mentioned the CC posts not counting while I have been on TB & ask us to reconsider. I was not on TB when either TB or Randy decided that CC posts wouldn't count so I can't address why they and/or he decided to exclude CC posts from counting.

If someone would like to start a suggestion thread, either in the public or private TB forums to consider TB changing CC posts counts, I would be more than willing to consider the issue.

But that would be a separate thread. The purpose of THIS thread is to garner feedback from FTers re: whether they think Omni posts should be reinstated & their reasons why & why not, so that TB members can take their input into consideration.

Cheers.

Does it really matter?

Personally I don't care one way or the other, but there seems to be two notions here that I have to say I don't agree with.

First, a person's post count means something.

That's just not the case. There is little, if any, correlation between a person's post count and their value to the community. There are people who have been here a year or two and have multiple times the amount of posts somebody who has been here five or ten years. Does it make them any more respected or valuable? I most certainly don't believe so.

Second notion, the one that really cracks me up, is that Omni is the off topic nothing to do with points and miles, while the rest of the place does and their posts should count. That's just simply no longer true.

There are many forums out there where anything from half to 99% of their posts have nothing to do with points and miles. SPAM for example is so removed from it's description it's laughable. Most of Dining Buzz has nothing to do with travel or points and miles unless you really stretch it.

Virtually everything in News Stand is a duplicate thread of Safety and Security and other forums, but nobody calls that post count padding. Online booking has a thread that's dozens of pages long and it's people saying you are a jerk and others saying you are a nutjob, yet those posts count. Travel Technology is a stretch to say it's all travel related,

I say let it count, but I'll also say it really doesn't matter one way or the other, Post count only serves one purpose to me, to welcome new posters to Flyertalk, after that it's meaningless.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on this.

It's like getting "credit" for hanging out in bars.

Depends if you hang out at the Hotsy Totsy :eek:, or at Michael Mina's Clock Bar :cool:.

I understand what you're saying, Sharon - but the first paragraph reads:

At present post counts differ for all the Flyertalk forums and for the OMNI forums. The TalkBoard believes that FlyerTalk would benefit from a common posting process for these forums (Coupon Connection excepted due to the uniqueness/mandate of the forum).

I don't understad why CC is any more unique in this regard - if anything, IMHO, it's more related to miles & points (and even more of a value to what I perceive the mission of FlyerTalk is) than OMNI & OMNI P/R.

Should not count. After all it is called FlyerTalk; don't count anything unrelated to flying/travelling.

If that helps boosting some people's ego, have two separate counters.

Well as it is called "Flyer" talk then why add "travelling" ? It is not called "Travellertalk". :D

I guess posts count in the "Cruises" thread and on the "flyertalk" ticket I guess they should not count either. A post is a post is a post. And the number of posts is no guarantee that anyone's opinion is more valuable than any other persons. Unless it is the BA forum of course. :D

Depends if you hang out at the Hotsy Totsy :eek:, or at Michael Mina's Clock Bar :cool:.

It's been a while, but I love Hotsy Totsy! A buddy and I played shuffleboard there a few years ago. My friend was pretty good at it. One of our opponents gave my friend a pitch on how he could be a great tournament competitor if he worked at it. Me, not so much. True story.

I understand what you're saying, Sharon - but the first paragraph reads:



I don't understad why CC is any more unique in this regard - if anything, IMHO, it's more related to miles & points (and even more of a value to what I perceive the mission of FlyerTalk is) than OMNI & OMNI P/R.

Truthfully the reason CC is mentioned at all in the motion is because I figured if I said ALL FT forums allow posts to count, someone would mention CC doesn't. Plus my understanding was that there was some sort of mandate given the uniqueness of that forum due to the 'trading' that goes on & there was a reason for it, hence my phrasing it that way.

I agree with you that if posts count in Omni they should count in CC, but I think CC posts counting should be a separate thread. And I'm sure in that thread the reasons why CC posts are excluded from counting would be explained/up for consideration. It can't be because it helps you get access to CC because in order to access CC you have to have 180 posts already to get to it. ;) If such a thread is started, then perhaps the mods of CC can address the issue in that thread.

Speaking only for myself and as a regular FT member, I don't put super credence in # of posts meaning someone is smarter/knows more. If someone makes a post that I strongly agree or disagree w/ or is extremely unusual, I might glance underneath their handle to see how long they've been on FT & how many posts, but I usually don't.

For that matter I don't look to see if they've got evangelist or legend (dhuey will be really embarrassed if he ever gets to that stage :p :D). If titles disappeared it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, but that also is a separate thread.

Cheers.

For that matter I don't look to see if they've got evangelist or legend (dhuey will be really embarrassed if he ever gets to that stage :p :D). If titles disappeared it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, but that also is a separate thread.

Cheers.

I might threaten to close my account if they don't remove that "title of honor". Not much of a threat, I know.

Truthfully the reason CC is mentioned at all in the motion is because I figured if I said ALL FT forums allow posts to count, someone would mention CC doesn't. Plus my understanding was that there was some sort of mandate given the uniqueness of that forum due to the 'trading' that goes on & there was a reason for it, hence my phrasing it that way.

I agree with you that if posts count in Omni they should count in CC, but I think CC posts counting should be a separate thread. And I'm sure in that thread the reasons why CC posts are excluded from counting would be explained/up for consideration. It can't be because it helps you get access to CC because in order to access CC you have to have 180 posts already to get to it. ;) If such a thread is started, then perhaps the mods of CC can address the issue in that thread.

I get it. Coupon Connection is like Quebec, separate and distinct and everyone is okay with it staying that way. Like bhatnasx I don't see the point in including OMNI while excluding CC.

It has been said that Omni is one of the most popular forums on FT. If that is the case, why are the people posting there treated like second class citizens?
[/LIST]



It has been the case for me. I am taking the year off from traveling (mostly) but that does not mean it's not in my blood.

Omni P/R is the only place for me to interact on FT during this season, to say, "I am still here!"

Does it really matter?

Personally I don't care one way or the other, but there seems to be two notions here that I have to say I don't agree with.

First, a person's post count means something.

That's just not the case. There is little, if any, correlation between a person's post count and their value to the community. There are people who have been here a year or two and have multiple times the amount of posts somebody who has been here five or ten years. Does it make them any more respected or valuable? I most certainly don't believe so.

Can you not at the very least acknowledge that even if you see no value in post counts, they do have at least some value for others and that some believe that value would will be significantly diminished if OMNI posts are allowed to count again?

Please, NO.

I don't care much about other people's post counts, but clearly many others feel differently. To me, if someone wants to post-pad, so be it. But when posts in Omni used to count, that forum became a wasteland of counting and game threads, that pushed the other threads down. It got to where it was common for 3/4 of the front page threads to be counting, and that did affect those of us who enjoy the threads in Omni which contain actual content.

Unless or until we get an ignore/hide thread option, or we limit or segregate the counting & game threads, let's please keep Omni posts from counting.

I'm a little amazed and disturbed that some are fighting for more "credit" for their OMNI posts. As I just mentioned to a friend, I get a little more embarrassed the higher my FT post count goes. I feel like covering it up when my wife is near the screen. It's like getting "credit" for hanging out in bars.

Yes, which some of us refer to as 'socializing', which, in turn, some of us consider a good thing. Sad that you don't. ;) :D

Does it really matter?

Ultimately? No.

Don't really care, but at least in OMNI without posts counting, I can measure a members commitment to supporting the other forums, and not just using OMNI as political venting vehicle.

Some of Omni's most prolific posters have less than 500 posts in any of the other forums, and they have been members for years.

I enjoy fruitful exchanges with FT folks that seem to be educated and experienced within the community. The Points & Miles community that is. As someone who might be categorized as the archetypal dedicated visitor, who routinely (but not ritually) chimes in to relevant and appropriate threads of interest...I wholeheartedly OPPOSE re-instituting OMNI posts into members post counts.

When one is discussing topics of interest, its nice to see whom your discussions are with, and how much they've contributed to the Points & Miles community. While I concede OMNI has a place within the community, I believe it is a much seperate facet of FT than what the post count should portray. Further, the Coupon Connection, I believe, is MORE relevant to the spirit of FT than OMNI. It should be noted that the mods in the CC are very rigorous in disallowing "extraneous" posts within those threads. Therefore, the concern of someone padding their count via the CC is an inherently flawed one, as one is basically not allowed to have a "posting run" in the CC, and is discouraged from commenting on potential on ongoing trades within the CC threads. It seems, however, that since the aim of FT is to discuss Points & Miles programs within the travel industry - one would think that the CC would have not just a tangential place, but would play a somewhat integral role in FT, since its the only true forum that discusses the primary value of what a Point & Mile within any one program are actually worth. @:-)

If I was on TB, I would search my soul and be true to what FT is actually about. Therefore, I would NOT allow OMNI posts to count. Further, I would remove any OMNI posts from existing post counts. And third, I would allow posts from the Coupon Connection to count.

BTW, I would hope that posts within this thread (including my own) do not count toward post counts either, lol.

Another "nay" to counting posts in OMNI.

I'll state my support of this again since this is the official thread :)



Omni posts used to count, until some people decided to create threads and made thousands of posts in "counting" threads. There's more than 1 evangelist made by just counting. While I'm all for fun and games, these type threads should be moved to an Omni Social area where posts don't count that contain only these threads.


Contributions to Omni-lite (not P/R) are just as valuable as any other post on FT. There are very few places on the internet where you can get good/correct information in a short period of time. Even those people who claim Omni shouldn't exist at all on FT eventually show up there when they need a fast/good answer.


Images were allowed in Omni because the TB wanted to make it more like the rest of FT, which allows them. Posts also count in the rest of FT, so why is this even an issue - it's either like the rest of FT or it's not.


Posts count in Lounge threads and contain far far less good information than Omni. Again, I can think of at least one evangelist that got the title by posting in lounge threads and almost nowhere else on FT, except maybe a contest thread in Community. Why is my post in Omni, which I spent a good deal of time researching and writing, helping another member valued less by the community than someone simply posting a "good morning" in a lounge thread? IMHO, all lounge threads should be moved to the social area mentioned above.


If we don't want to reward Omni P/R-only posters with titles/post count, do not allow them to count in Omni P/R and remove the posts from their count. The vast majority of those people do not post anywhere else on FT and only go into to FT to troll. Many of them are the reason the Omnis have such a bad reputation.


It has been said that Omni is one of the most popular forums on FT. If that is the case, why are the people posting there treated like second class citizens?


Thank you for brining this motion forward ^^

As usual, I agree with Mary. ^ +1

Don't really care, but at least in OMNI without posts counting, I can measure a members commitment to supporting the other forums, and not just using OMNI as political venting vehicle.

Some of Omni's most prolific posters have less than 500 posts in any of the other forums, and they have been members for years.Whaddaya know, I agree with you! This is a community of people who love travel. That is the glue that makes us a community. I'm really not interested in getting into political arguments with people who are just there to troll, while adding to their post counts and becoming evangelists, legends or whatever. Wanna be a legend? Contribute some information to the core of FT; which is the travel boards. Wanna be a troll? I guess we have to let you, but don't expect any "status" out of it.

I support this motion.

I look forward to becoming a FlyerTalk Evangelist in a few months by demonstrating my ability to count. ^^

Wanna be a legend? Contribute some information to the core of FT; which is the travel boards. Wanna be a troll? I guess we have to let you, but don't expect any "status" out of it.

Agree 100% and with other posters comments about not counting OMNI posts as part of a member's overall post count.

I've never really ventured into the OMNI forums, but after learning that people post 'counting' games (and taking a look for myself), I'm very surprised that anyone would want these to count towards their post counts and therefore perceived or actual status (expect perhaps the people that posted and contribute to these games). Having seen a few posters that I recognise near the top of such threads, my opinion of those individuals has definitely declined as a result.

Subtley, I think that everyone makes a judgement about a poster based on their count (I'm sure that this is especially true for new members) and if you can increase your profile by posting on such inane topics that contribute zero to the community (counting threads again) then I'd have to argue that this approach would seriously de-value post counts, making them nonsensical.

I recently locked horns with someone new to the BA board who was very clear in his opinion that 'post counts' count for nothing. I was strongly against that view at the time, however, if this goes ahead, I'd have to agree with him. In my opinion, counting OMNI posts would seriously devalue the posts of those individuals who contribute their time, knowledge and effort to the FT travel community.

I'm strongly against this motion.

Personally, I don't care about post counts. I have been here long enough that I recognize posters and have met several. I knew of Dovster due to OMNI/PR and have met him. For me it was a great pleasure.

Now I have gotten out of hand on occasion in OMNI/PR but it really has something to contribute. It is the place where you hear a local news story before it hits national or international levels. Prop 8 is a perfect example. Because of OMNI/PR I was aware of it here when my colleagues and friends, who don't keep their heads in the sand, had no inkling of the maelstrom that was brewing in California.
This happens a lot and is what redeems OMNI/PR even though sometimes we want to destroy it due to our partisanship.

I dont really think they should be counted. Interesting that we exclude coupon connection because of its unique nature but on a travel board I would think OMNI is unique in its nature as well. If they are counted then I would really like to see the forums in two categories, travel and social and then in each persons profile see a percentage of their total posts in those two categories.

Just say NO to post count.

Leave things as they are. If counts are allowed, there's going to be a run of useless drivel, more so than normal.

Dan

No. OMNI is such a different world and isn't central to the mission of FT. I enjoy the discussions in those forums, but the post counts should reflect contribution to the "flyer" part of FlyerTalk.

Well said. ^

Leave things as they are. If counts are allowed, there's going to be a run of useless drivel, more so than normal. And what's so wrong with that? :p

As a person who was directly instrumental in bringing the Lounge thread concept to FlyerTalk, I can tell you that “post counts” had nothing to do with the the decision to allow Lounge threads in non-OMNI forums on FlyerTalk...

...and I can tell you that there were a number of people who were originally against this concept, including Randy Petersen. Nevertheless, a trial period of the first official Lounge thread was approved and granted, and the rest is history — but, as I said, “post count” was never a consideration, a thought or a factor.

The Dovster may want to expound on the history of the Lounge thread concept. I do not feel compelled to do that here.

In the meantime, my position on this issue is that I really have no opinion either way, even though I launched one of the longest threads in the OMNI forum several years ago.

No. . . the post counts should reflect contribution to the "flyer" part of FlyerTalk.

I agree with this.

I guess.

But the bigger question to me is -- "reversing the prior decision on post counts in OMNI?" Really TalkBoard? That's what you got?

FlyerTalk now faces the first formidable competition in its history (Remember, Southwest was small once, too.) -- and this is what you are focused on?

You are the member-elected representatives of this place. And this is what you think the members are concerned about? :(

Let them count. But I have said it before, is there a mechanism for only allowing them to count once you have posted, for example, 100 times in non-OMNI threads. If not, just let them count.

Is this where you say yay/nay to this question anyway?
I agree with this viewpoint.
Although I would be happy to go ahead to allow OMNI posts to count if the really silly threads eg countdowns, next poster type ones, should be on a drivel thread where posts aren't counted. However, I do realise this would give mods more work.

You are the member-elected representatives of this place. And this is what you think the members are concerned about? :(

I couldn't say it better ^

Anyway, count the Omni posts or remove those from lounges but please do something before some of them have ulcers :D

I say no to OMNI post counts and wouldn't mind seeing the Lounge Threads get moved to OMNI. Can't we just ask the mods to move the Lounge Threads to OMNI (I realize that TB cannot force this)? Perhaps create a new airline lounge sub-forum in OMNI?

FlyerTalk now faces the first formidable competition in its history (Remember, Southwest was small once, too.) -- and this is what you are focused on?

What are you referring to? (bolding mine)

For those of you who want to see post counts kept "pure" to the mission of FT (of which I don't necessarily disagree), do you have any idea just how much post counts have been inflated by:

Old Omni posts counting
Contest threads
Lounge threads

If we want to keep counts pure, then I would be all for:

-removing old Omni posts from counts
-moving the contest and lounge threads to Omni where the posts will disappear

They are not pure now, and as someone else mentioned, the horse has already left the barn.

Personally I don't care one way or the other, but there seems to be two notions here that I have to say I don't agree with.

First, a person's post count means something.

That's just not the case. There is little, if any, correlation between a person's post count and their value to the community. ...Would you advocate the logical conclusion of this, which is that post counting should simply be completely removed?

That could elegantly solve this problem, if your thesis is correct.FlyerTalk now faces the first formidable competition in its history ...From where? As far as I can see only the FT UA board faces anything like "formidable competition". And, it seems to me, the limited extent of the competition is due in part to the rampant and unchecked (nay, positively encouraged) post padding with which MilePoint started and out of which it has not grown.

Just say NO to post count.

Leave things as they are. If counts are allowed, there's going to be a run of useless drivel, more so than normal.

Dan

:-: ^ :-: ^ :-:

Dan, my feelings are 100% in line with this statement. I couldn't have simplified it any better.

You are the member-elected representatives of this place. And this is what you think the members are concerned about? :(This thread has only been around for a couple of days and look at the number of posts. I'd say based on the responses that this seems to be something they are concerned about. (Now whether that is a good thing or not is a horse of a different color.)

Can't we just ask the mods to move the Lounge Threads to OMNI (I realize that TB cannot force this)? Perhaps create a new airline lounge sub-forum in OMNI?No, because it defeats the purpose of why the Lounge thread concept was developed in the first place.

I am in favor of a return to posts in OMNI counting toward the FT member-displayed post count counter, as it would be a small step forward toward treating OMNI like all the other forums on FT that are open to thousands of FTers.

The post-inflating barn door has been opened long enough and in enough places here on FT that I don't see that restoring post count in the OMNI's...the most popular forum on FT....is going to make a whole lot of difference in the scheme of things.


Sounds like a basis to call for elimination of all barriers restricting OMNI viewability and/or posting, such that all members of FT could once again participate in it the same way they can elsewhere on FT. ^^

So how about eliminating that 180 post count requirement to view and/or post in OMNI? As would happen if this current motion passes, that too would help get OMNI closer to being treated like the rest of FT.

I thought you couldn't access OMNI until you had a certain number of posts?

In order to access OMNI, most all FT member accounts must meet a posting and membership duration requirement; however, some FT accounts are not subject to that requirement.

The Dovster may want to expound on the history of the Lounge thread concept. I do not feel compelled to do that here.



Naaa, been there, done that.

I knew of Dovster due to OMNI/PR and have met him. For me it was a great pleasure.


I agree. It was a great pleasure for the_happiness_store.

(It was for me, too, but I can't admit that without putting my OmniCon status at risk.)


why are the people posting there treated like second class citizens?


Probably because most of our Omni posts are third class.

I would greatly support a measure which removed one post from our count for every one we make on Omni.

Another vote for NO, for many of the reasons already stated, including being outside of the FT mission, the counting threads, post padding, etc.

You are the member-elected representatives of this place. And this is what you think the members are concerned about? :(

Since FT members started a thread in this forum & asked us to consider this (w/ several pages; you can find the thread), then yes, that's the reason I made a motion. Obviously it's had several pages here as well, with reasons given on either side for yes/no.

As a TB member I'm willing to consider other items for FT that are within TB's purview (and not mods or IBs), regardless of what other BBs do or don't do, but those would be in a separate thread(s).

Cheers.

For those of you who want to see post counts kept "pure" to the mission of FT (of which I don't necessarily disagree), do you have any idea just how much post counts have been inflated by:

Old Omni posts counting
Contest threads
Lounge threads

If we want to keep counts pure, then I would be all for:

-removing old Omni posts from counts
-moving the contest and lounge threads to Omni where the posts will disappear

They are not pure now, and as someone else mentioned, the horse has already left the barn.

There have been no contest threads since Randy left FT. Lounge threads are, in my view, a Moderation issue and so outside of the range of responsibility of TB.

Markie said it for this member; ONMI is extra-curriculum.

About Us[/B]]

FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information. An interactive community dedicated to your favorite topic: travel! That's right: all travel, all the time. The FlyerTalk forums are open for business 24 hours, 7 days a week. Even better, all travelers -- from vacation travelers to mileage junkies -- are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum and you can get to the business at hand: conversing about programs, how to make the most of your miles and points, general travel, airports, destination and dining information.

My view is that as OMNI is, by it's very nature not central to Flyertalk, (points and miles anyone), I do not support allowing OMNI posts to count where this would have the effect of conferring the title 'Evangelist' on people who have posted 180 times on Miles and Points and the 9820 times in OMNI when the board is about Miles and Points. (Accept this is an extreme example).

Therefore on this occasion I will not be supporting this motion.

There have been no contest threads since Randy left FT. Lounge threads are, in my view, a Moderation issue and so outside of the range of responsibility of TB.So, TB decides IF there are to be new forums, including asking for justification for what will be contained within them, yet has no voice in what IS in those same forums? :confused: :confused: :confused:

If that's the case, I think FT has bigger issues than whether or not Omni posts count.

As well, those contest threads have thousands upon thousands of posts in them (as do lounge threads). If post count is to be viewed as a measure of contribution/knowledge of this community, well, for some people, those metrics are pretty much meaningless. I can think of several posters who have well over 20k posts and they only posted in contest and lounge threads (or they counted in Omni alot).

I see everyone's point - but it appears there is an "excuse" for all other types of off-topic posts. It's only Omni, which contains what it's supposed to, which is being singled out.

So, TB decides IF there are to be new forums, including asking for justification for what will be contained within them, yet has no voice in what IS in those same forums? :confused: :confused: :confused:

If that's the case, I think FT has bigger issues than whether or not Omni posts count.

As strange as it sounds, that is exactly the case.

In theory, TB could decide tomorrow that Royal Jordanian will get its own forum and Air Pakistan will not.

The moderators appointed to the Royal Jordanian forum would be then free to allow posts about Air Pakistan and prohibit all posts about Royal Jordanian.

Yes, I know it makes no sense but that is how things are.

I'm also voting NO. Post counts are inflated enough as it is from Lounge Threads, Contests (thankfully now over), people who post non sequitors upon non sequitors, threads that spin wildly off topic and carry on for pages on end ("Changes to Lifetime Gold/Plat" on the AA Forum for one). We don't need any other ways for post counts to jump.

Maybe this is silly, and maybe this is just me, but to me, being a Flyertalk Evangelist means something. I've wanted to be one for a long time, to have that band of text under my user name and to have people see me as an old timer who maybe knows a thing or two.

I don't want this to change and I hope it doesn't.

I'm also voting NO. Post counts are inflated enough as it is from Lounge Threads, Contests (thankfully now over), people who post non sequitors upon non sequitors, threads that spin wildly off topic and carry on for pages on end ("Changes to Lifetime Gold/Plat" on the AA Forum for one). We don't need any other ways for post counts to jump.

Maybe this is silly, and maybe this is just me, but to me, being a Flyertalk Evangelist means something. I've wanted to be one for a long time, to have that band of text under my user name and to have people see me as an old timer who maybe knows a thing or two.

I don't want this to change and I hope it doesn't.

Just curious & not disrespecting your viewpoint. But you've been on FT for a while & have a # of posts under your belt (7K+). Why do you think FTers would not already think you're an old-timer who maybe knows a thing or two? I certainly would! Does it actually take X amount of posts more & a 'title' to do that? It's a legit question & not snarky. Just trying to understand.

BTW - not to discourage you, but regardless of how the vote on Omni posts counting or not turns out, the title 'evangalist' has already been downgraded (IMO) because lounge posts do count, even if they're as simple as good morning & nothing else, & people are racking up post counts.

Cheers.

Is one allowed to mention MilePoint here?

If post counts are intended to have any utility in assessing (in however broad a sense) the contribution that a member has made to FT, MilePoint amply demonstrates why OMNI posts should not be counted.

Post counts there (and the status consequently earned) are utterly meaningless in very many cases, because of a combination of counting all posts in every thread and the MilePoint innovation of giving people positive incentives to increase their post counts by any means.Just say NO to post count.

Leave things as they are. If counts are allowed, there's going to be a run of useless drivel, more so than normal.

DanThese two post indicate my feelings; so, No!
...
I would greatly support a measure which removed one post from our count for every one we make on Omni.:eek::D:cool:

No. No reason to make them count. This is first and foremost a travel site, with Omni offering a diversion of sorts. If post count actually has any significance, then they should not count.

I'm also voting NO. Post counts are inflated enough as it is from Lounge Threads, Contests (thankfully now over), people who post non sequitors upon non sequitors, threads that spin wildly off topic and carry on for pages on end ("Changes to Lifetime Gold/Plat" on the AA Forum for one). We don't need any other ways for post counts to jump.

Maybe this is silly, and maybe this is just me, but to me, being a Flyertalk Evangelist means something. I've wanted to be one for a long time, to have that band of text under my user name and to have people see me as an old timer who maybe knows a thing or two.

I don't want this to change and I hope it doesn't.

+1.

I'm also voting NO. Post counts are inflated enough as it is from Lounge Threads, Contests (thankfully now over), people who post non sequitors upon non sequitors, threads that spin wildly off topic and carry on for pages on end ("Changes to Lifetime Gold/Plat" on the AA Forum for one). We don't need any other ways for post counts to jump.

When you have threads about Bacon.... Nevermind...

Nothing meaningful must be going on for the TB to be focused on post count. If that info were eliminated, that would be good. Who cares? I don't understand the significance of it whatsoever. But boards seem to include it. Go figure. :rolleyes:

Sure it would be nice to get the credit from OMNI. I do agree with what is in place now however, that OMNI is just chatter and isn't related to the other forums.

So, TB decides IF there are to be new forums, including asking for justification for what will be contained within them, yet has no voice in what IS in those same forums? :confused: :confused: :confused:


As Dovster wrote, this is indeed correct with the segregation of duties between TB and the Moderator Corps.

OMNI is a nice addition to FT, but not what FT is about. Posts should not count towards post count in OMNI. As for lounge threads, well that's for something for mods to combat.

Absoultely they should count. Omni is every bit a part of flyertalk as the community boards are.
Reinstate post counts for OMNI, please.

I agree. I think it will restore the post counts once again. If they behave to all FT members and not try to padding the post count.

Just curious & not disrespecting your viewpoint. But you've been on FT for a while & have a # of posts under your belt (7K+). Why do you think FTers would not already think you're an old-timer who maybe knows a thing or two? I certainly would! Does it actually take X amount of posts more & a 'title' to do that? It's a legit question & not snarky. Just trying to understand.

BTW - not to discourage you, but regardless of how the vote on Omni posts counting or not turns out, the title 'evangalist' has already been downgraded (IMO) because lounge posts do count, even if they're as simple as good morning & nothing else, & people are racking up post counts.

Cheers.

1) it's Evangelist
2) Because the real debate is in fact about the lounges, approve the proposal to include lounges in a Omni sub forum and everything will be settled.
Too bad our representatives lack all common sense :(

Naaa, been there, done that.



I agree. It was a great pleasure for the_happiness_store.

(It was for me, too, but I can't admit that without putting my OmniCon status at risk.)




Probably because most of our Omni posts are third class.

I would greatly support a measure which removed one post from our count for every one we make on Omni.

Great proposal ^
and to be acclaimed, I propose :
one removed post from our count for every one we make on Omni.
two removed posts from our count for every one we make on Lounges.
three removed posts from our count for every one we make on botany subject :D

Of course we must also allow negative accounts.

BTW that's nice that posting on TB Topics counts because it's way funnier here than in any lounge ^

Great proposal ^
and to be acclaimed, I propose :
one removed post from our count for every one we make on Omni.
two removed posts from our count for every one we make on Lounges.
three removed posts from our count for every one we make on botany subject :D



You have to be careful with that last one. Australia's largest airport (Sydney) is located on Botany Bay. You may find a lot of Ozzies winding up with no posts at all -- not that there is anything wrong with that.

You have to be careful with that last one. Australia's largest airport (Sydney) is located on Botany Bay. You may find a lot of Ozzies winding up with no posts at all -- not that there is anything wrong with that.

Thank you for the information so I will avoid to go in Australia ^:D

All posts, OMNI or not, should count! Whilst there are a few who load the Omni pair with gormless blather, they are out-weighed by allowing me to know how I should act when introduced to a fellow OMNI addict....

Well, I laud the TB for attempting to fix the logical disconnect of counting posts on Lounge threads but not on OMNI.

I support this motion. IMHO, Randy made a mistake and created unnecessary ill will by unilaterally discontinuing OMNI post counts. The irony is that not long after doing that, he started the now infamous 'contest' threads in Community that DID count toward posting totals. None of this made any logical sense at the time (although if you ask IB's lawyers he was doing the contests for post padding/payout purposes).

While this is far from a live/die decision, it would great if some logical consistency were applied to off-topic forums.

So should this motion fail, my suggestion be to either close the lounge forums and put all off topic discussion in OMNI where all off-topic posts are treated the same or find a way to not count posts on lounge threads just like they are not counted in OMNI.

In other words, whether off-topic forums count in post total or not, logic and consistency are not too much to ask for.

If you check the other threads on this subject, you will find that a few of us have talked about this discrepency... and I know I have requested a few times that post counts in CC count. :)

The motion didn't include CC because neither FTers nor TB members have mentioned the CC posts not counting while I have been on TB & ask us to reconsider. I was not on TB when either TB or Randy decided that CC posts wouldn't count so I can't address why they and/or he decided to exclude CC posts from counting.

If you check the other threads on this subject, you will find that a few of us have talked about this discrepency... and I know I have requested a few times that post counts in CC count. :)

I think I could see the sense in having posts count in CC too, in part because once you can post in CC, you've met all of the posting/membership requirements usually.

No to including Omni posts in total post count.

So should this motion fail, my suggestion be to either close the lounge forums and put all off topic discussion in OMNI where all off-topic posts are treated the sameAs the Dovster so eloquently said earlier in this thread...Naaa, been there, done that....as evidenced here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles-pre-worldperks-merger/61847-unabashed-cholula-spam-138.html#post4486613) and here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/59521-moderators-guilty-premature-evacuation-4.html#post4486678) and was part of the impetus of forming the Lounge thread concept in the first place...

...and I was on the receiving end of all of the e-mail messages and private messages expressing vehement protest as a result.

Just curious & not disrespecting your viewpoint. But you've been on FT for a while & have a # of posts under your belt (7K+). Why do you think FTers would not already think you're an old-timer who maybe knows a thing or two? I certainly would! Does it actually take X amount of posts more & a 'title' to do that? It's a legit question & not snarky. Just trying to understand.

BTW - not to discourage you, but regardless of how the vote on Omni posts counting or not turns out, the title 'evangalist' has already been downgraded (IMO) because lounge posts do count, even if they're as simple as good morning & nothing else, & people are racking up post counts.

Cheers.

Hey Sharon, thanks for the response, and I don't look at it as snarky or anything. What you say certainly has merit and I guess I did not think of it from that point of view. It doesn't take a title and x-number of posts for people to realize that, but I still want the title and I still want to feel like it means something, at least to me.

I wish there were a way to separately state the counts. It would be nice to have a "fluff" count and a "real" count.


If someone reaches a title milepost by majority posting in OMNI, could they get a title such as OMNI Evangelist or OMNI Posting Legend? @:-)



I might threaten to close my account if they don't remove that "title of honor". Not much of a threat, I know.

I think you could ask that no title appear below your handle; I know of at least one FTer that has over 10k posts but no title.



Just say NO to post count.

Leave things as they are. If counts are allowed, there's going to be a run of useless drivel, more so than normal.

Dan

Well said. ^

Great proposal ^
and to be acclaimed, I propose :
one removed post from our count for every one we make on Omni.
two removed posts from our count for every one we make on Lounges.
three removed posts from our count for every one we make on botany subject :D

Of course we must also allow negative accounts.

BTW that's nice that posting on TB Topics counts because it's way funnier here than in any lounge ^

1) it's Evangelist
2) Because the real debate is in fact about the lounges, approve the proposal to include lounges in a Omni sub forum and everything will be settled.
Too bad our representatives lack all common sense :(

Do the both of you realize that, by making consecutive posts without using the multi-quote button, you have effectively padded your post count? Just sayin' :p

No to counting posts in OMNI. Randy had it right. Most (all?) of the threads in OMNI have nothing to do with FT. Apart from the counting threads ther e are the truly pointless ones. What do these have to do with the principal reasons we are all here?

I will add my $.02 and say that I do not think OMNI posts should be counted. The central theme of FT is travel, not politics. A high(er) post count should indicate a level of participation in travel-related discussion and not just arguing in OMNI.

You folks do know that Omni is now in 2 sections... the PR, or politics, and the regular "everything else off topic" areas. Right?

I'm inclined to vote "NO" as well, but with one caveat: if all those stupid "counting" and other post-padding threads could be made to not count (or better yet, disappear), then by all means, make the posts count. But I realize that this is not possible due to the software's limitations, as SkiAdcock pointed out.

Spin off those number counting threads, where some posters have got tens of thousands of posts, and I'm fine with letting every OMNI and OMNI/PR thread count, too. As the current motion does not do that, I'd prefer to see the Talk Board vote against this measure and come back to the table with something new.

I remember members pumping up their post count with those number counting threads and can foresee a whole bunch more counting threads to come if this motion passes. They'd always be at the top of OMNI so the post padders can get right to them, just like they were before when they counted.

As long as we have lounge threads in several forums and contest threads in Community, generating thousands of posts for some members, I don't see how you can't let the posts count in OMNI and OMNI/PR (with the number counting thread exclusion I'd like to see). A "good morning" in a lounge thread gets counted now while someone writing several paragraphs in either of the OMNIs gets no credit at all. FT has changed, like it or not, and these lounge threads are here to stay.

So, come back to the table with a proposal to spin off those number counting threads into an OMNI GAMES forum and I'd completely support this measure.

Tom in Shanghai

Funny Tom should post this now...

I was looking at 2 lounge threads. There is 1 poster with over 23k posts and over 20k of them are in a lounge thread.

There are at least a dozen evangelists just from that lounge thread alone.

I haven't even looked for the contest threads, but I'm sure some people have a few thousand of posts there.

As for the counting threads... they are what got Omni posts to stop counting. We have one member with about 30 or 40k posts just counting. Yes, you read that right. So instead of stopping the counting, post counts were removed from Omni (it was a single forum then). The reason given was because it wasn't "core" to FT's mission, but it is quite remarkable that Omni stopped counting just when the membership started vocally complaining about it.

I get the feeling the evangelist status under their name means something for a certain few..

It means something to me. 90% of my posts here are on the travel side. I didn't do number counting games and I don't do lounge threads. If you had 90% of your contributions on the travel side contributing content maybe you'd feel the same.

The game changed, though, when contest threads were posted in Community allowing members to get thousands of posts there, as well as an expansion of lounge threads allowing members to rack up posts. The number under my name doesn't tell you "where" I got those posts.

I wish there was some way to recognize those of us that spend the majority of our time contributing on the travel side here, versus lounge threads or contests, but as it is now there is not.

All to often, OMNI posts serve the "needs" of the poster rather than the benefit of the reader.

Count me as a NO.

As the Dovster so eloquently said earlier in this thread......as evidenced here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles-pre-worldperks-merger/61847-unabashed-cholula-spam-138.html#post4486613) and here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/59521-moderators-guilty-premature-evacuation-4.html#post4486678) and was part of the impetus of forming the Lounge thread concept in the first place...

...and I was on the receiving end of all of the e-mail messages and private messages expressing vehement protest as a result.

I'm less interested in how the lounge threads started or where they have been than what they have become.

Because when FT was started, all of OMNI existed in a single thread in CBuzz called "OMNI." It was basically the communitybuzz version of a lounge thread. Then it got its own section. Then it got ghettoized.

Then along came lounge threads..basically the original OMNI threads of the Delta and then CO forums. They are nothing more and nothing less than less-evolved versions of OMNI itself.

So it's perfectly fair to ask why the two beasts are treated differently...and why, in fact, they all exist since they are redundant to each other. But, ok, lounge threads have their constituency just as OMNI has its constituency. But, again, there is no reason in the world to treat them any differently from each other! So either count OMNI and lounges or count neither.

I'm less interested in how the lounge threads started or where they have been than what they have become.It is easy to be less interested when you did not have to personally handle and address all of the e-mail messages and private messages.

I am not disputing your reasoning; just that the idea of moving Lounge threads to the OMNI forum will not work, as that has already been attempted.

The lounge threads were the worst thing to happen to Flyertalk.

I think it's a good idea to move them to an non post counting Omni subforum. @:-) As a matter of fact, Omni + PR should only be accessable via a website ie omni.flyertalk.com

The lounge threads were the worst thing to happen to Flyertalk.

+100

I would be thrilled if one of three things happened:

(1) All OMNI posts count, even those posted during the time after Randy stopped making them count.

(2) If OMNI posts don't count, then all posts EVER made in OMNI should not count. There are quite a few evangelists (and a legend or two) who have significant numbers of "counted" posts from OMNI. Why should those posts count and those made today not count? It gives preference to those who were members longer and posted more in OMNI during the period where those posts counted.

(3) Remove all post counts and titles related to post counts. That's my favorite choice, but nobody will make that proposal.

It's funny to me how nobody cares....except everyone that seems to care one way or another.

(2) If OMNI posts don't count, then all posts EVER made in OMNI should not count. There are quite a few evangelists (and a legend or two) who have significant numbers of "counted" posts from OMNI. Why should those posts count and those made today not count? It gives preference to those who were members longer and posted more in OMNI during the period where those posts counted.

When I was on TalkBoard I made a motion which would do exactly that -- and set off one of the most contentious threads ever seen on TB Topics.

When I was on TalkBoard I made a motion which would do exactly that -- and set off one of the most contentious threads ever seen on TB Topics.

And that, to me, is just blatant hypocrisy. Either you're for post counts or you're against them. Not for them for some people who happened to be members during a certain time period a few years back and against them for people who posted from 2008 (or whenever they were stopped) on.

Hot topic, maybe move it to OMNI!:D
Honestly, I never did see why OMNI posts did not count but Lounge & "Good Morning" ones did. If the real concern is post-count earned Titles, then remove all titles except those that serve Administrative, Moderator, etc., purposes.

I'll state my support of this again since this is the official thread :)

Mary, you make some very interesting and valid points about this proposal. However, seeing this particular argument made again frustrates me:

Why is my post in Omni, which I spent a good deal of time researching and writing, helping another member valued less by the community than someone simply posting a "good morning" in a lounge thread?

I have attempted to illustrate numerous times how several--perhaps not all, but several (most?)--of the lounge threads are NOT as you suggest they are.

The three that I enjoy reading regularly and occasionally post in are most certainly NOT made up of "good m/a/e" posts and are instead, I've found, very helpful at establishing a strong community bond.

I think I've clearly illustrated these threads' worth and value to the FT community before, and seeing you continually lumping them all together as worthless when I know them not to be causes me at least subconsciously to question the legitimacy of your other points.

Mary, you make some very interesting and valid points about this proposal. However, seeing this particular argument made again frustrates me:



I have attempted to illustrate numerous times how several--perhaps not all, but several (most?)--of the lounge threads are NOT as you suggest they are.

The three that I enjoy reading regularly and occasionally post in are most certainly NOT made up of "good m/a/e" posts and are instead, I've found, very helpful at establishing a strong community bond.

I think I've clearly illustrated these threads' worth and value to the FT community before, and seeing you continually lumping them all together as worthless when I know them not to be causes me at least subconsciously to question the legitimacy of your other points.

Well, I looked at the Community Buzz thread and there's a LOT of "Good M/A/E" posts there. You must be talking about another thread, then.

Well, I looked at the Community Buzz thread and there's a LOT of "Good M/A/E" posts there. You must be talking about another thread, then.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/481066-delta-forum-lounge-thread-everybody-welcome.html

Mary, you make some very interesting and valid points about this proposal. However, seeing this particular argument made again frustrates me:



I have attempted to illustrate numerous times how several--perhaps not all, but several (most?)--of the lounge threads are NOT as you suggest they are.

The three that I enjoy reading regularly and occasionally post in are most certainly NOT made up of "good m/a/e" posts and are instead, I've found, very helpful at establishing a strong community bond.

I think I've clearly illustrated these threads' worth and value to the FT community before, and seeing you continually lumping them all together as worthless when I know them not to be causes me at least subconsciously to question the legitimacy of your other points.I'm sorry about the frustration :(

But I have looked at some of them in the last few days and they do contain quite a bit of good morning, good night, what is for lunch, etc. I did look at the Alaska Air thread, and it is probably the least active and contains the least amount of worthless posts.

FWIW - from readin the Delta lounge thread, it appears that many of those posting here, and in the other thread, are coming from there.

It appears to be skewing the yes/no responses - particularly when the other thread was posted.

Well, I looked at the Community Buzz thread and there's a LOT of "Good M/A/E" posts there. You must be talking about another thread, then.

I'll admit I've never actually ventured in that thread.

See G_G's post below yours.

BTW--thanks, Mary...I think. :p

(I'll take "least amount of worthless posts" as a compliment. ;))

That was a compliment ;)

- How do you get rid of fridge odors?

- The "misunderstand this post and reply" thread

- Do you shop at Trader Joe's?

- Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member To Post? An OMNI Game

- :rolleyes: [merged threads]

- Anyone else hate Apple?

- has Boston become the most successful sports city in the country?

- The Pavilion: OMNI Cricket Thread

- Newest OMNI waste of time - count UP to 100,000

- Red Sox vs. Yankees - 2011



OMNI's Top Ten of the moment

- How do you get rid of fridge odors?

- The "misunderstand this post and reply" thread

- Do you shop at Trader Joe's?

- Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member To Post? An OMNI Game

- :rolleyes: [merged threads]

- Anyone else hate Apple?

- has Boston become the most successful sports city in the country?

- The Pavilion: OMNI Cricket Thread

- Newest OMNI waste of time - count UP to 100,000

- Red Sox vs. Yankees - 2011



OMNI's Top Ten of the moment

No worse than people saying "Good m/a/e" multiple times a day, is it?

My point has always been that *all* these things build community. None are better or worse than others. So why the differentiation? Because one late night Randy couldn't sleep and decided he wanted to do this -- that's (essentially) why. Those days are over, though, so let's put things back the way they were.

No worse than people saying "Good m/a/e" multiple times a day, is it?

My point has always been that *all* these things build community. None are better or worse than others. So why the differentiation? Because one late night Randy couldn't sleep and decided he wanted to do this -- that's (essentially) why. Those days are over, though, so let's put things back the way they were.

I think that sums up the situation perfectly.

It's like someone farted then left the room. :(

- How do you get rid of fridge odors?

- The "misunderstand this post and reply" thread

- Do you shop at Trader Joe's?

- Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member To Post? An OMNI Game

- :rolleyes: [merged threads]

- Anyone else hate Apple?

- has Boston become the most successful sports city in the country?

- The Pavilion: OMNI Cricket Thread

- Newest OMNI waste of time - count UP to 100,000

- Red Sox vs. Yankees - 2011



OMNI's Top Ten of the moment
How are those any different from any of the lounge forums? By reading the fridge odors thread, you learn that It'sHip just bought a house, although, based on some of the other posts in OMNI, many of us have known that. We've gained an understanding of her life, and in various threads concerning her house purchase (and in the fridge odors thread), we've shared our stories. We're strengthening the community by sharing our stories.

The misunderstand this post thread is a way for the community to share in humor.

Trader Joe's gives a glimpse into the community's shopping habits, their likes and dislikes, and I could see this being very useful in the FT Secret Santa present search this year. :)

The next FT member to post thread reads much like the lounge threads that you support, as does the :rolleyes: thread.

The Apple thread actually could probably go in Travel Technology, but it builds community by allowing those who post to share their likes and dislikes, and news about Apple.

The Boston thread has discussion that could easily take place in the lounge threads, if the posters there opted to start it. Likewise, again, it builds community, in part because you can read it and tell who is and isn't a Boston sports fan.

The cricket thread again is one that could be discussed in the lounge threads, if the participants started it there.

The counting thread is great when you are trying to kill time, which I'd wager could be said for the lounge threads as well.

Red Sox vs. Yankees, again reads much like what you might see in a lounge thread, and builds a sense of community because you learn if posters like the Red Sox or Yankees, and again could be helpful for FT Secret Santa presents this year, because one can learn if their recipient is a fan of the Yankees or Red Sox, or neither.

So, how are those different than the lounge threads? They add to the sense of community too, but the only difference I see is that by posting in those, and not moving those conversations to the lounge threads, those posters do not have their posts count.

I think that sums up the situation perfectly.

It's like someone farted then left the room. :(

*sigh* koko, only you would explain it like that. :D

How are those any different from any of the lounge forums? By reading the fridge odors thread, you learn that It'sHip just bought a house, although, based on some of the other posts in OMNI, many of us have known that. We've gained an understanding of her life, and in various threads concerning her house purchase (and in the fridge odors thread), we've shared our stories. We're strengthening the community by sharing our stories.

The misunderstand this post thread is a way for the community to share in humor.

Trader Joe's gives a glimpse into the community's shopping habits, their likes and dislikes, and I could see this being very useful in the FT Secret Santa present search this year. :)

The next FT member to post thread reads much like the lounge threads that you support, as does the :rolleyes: thread.

The Apple thread actually could probably go in Travel Technology, but it builds community by allowing those who post to share their likes and dislikes, and news about Apple.

The Boston thread has discussion that could easily take place in the lounge threads, if the posters there opted to start it. Likewise, again, it builds community, in part because you can read it and tell who is and isn't a Boston sports fan.

The cricket thread again is one that could be discussed in the lounge threads, if the participants started it there.

The counting thread is great when you are trying to kill time, which I'd wager could be said for the lounge threads as well.

Red Sox vs. Yankees, again reads much like what you might see in a lounge thread, and builds a sense of community because you learn if posters like the Red Sox or Yankees, and again could be helpful for FT Secret Santa presents this year, because one can learn if their recipient is a fan of the Yankees or Red Sox, or neither.

So, how are those different than the lounge threads? They add to the sense of community too, but the only difference I see is that by posting in those, and not moving those conversations to the lounge threads, those posters do not have their posts count.

Unlike you I do not support nor criticism OMNI or Lounge, I participate in two.
In particular I do not denigrate one to promote the other and it does not bother me that the lounges posts do not count and that Lounges' threads are in an OMNI's subforum.

Unlike you I do not support nor criticism OMNI or Lounge, I participate in two.
In particular I do not denigrate one to promote the other and it does not bother me that the lounges posts do not count and that Lounges' threads are in an OMNI's subforum.

I'm not criticizing the lounge threads in my post that you quoted and bolded. I'm merely pointing out the similarities between many of the threads you quoted as the OMNI Top 10 of the moment and the lounge threads.

So, you're saying that you'd be all for having the lounge threads moved to an OMNI subforum and not having posts there count?

My issue with the lounge threads is that posts there are generally off-topic, but posts there count, while those same off-topic posts made in OMNI do not. If the lounge threads build community, great. However, OMNI builds community too, and as such, why are posts there treated differently than anywhere else?

Either have the posts in OMNI count, or move the lounge threads so that those posts don't count either.

And for those who don't care about post count (and I don't as long as all posts are created equally) how about removing post counts entirely? Why has that not been formally floated as a possibility?

I'm not criticizing the lounge threads in my post that you quoted and bolded. I'm merely pointing out the similarities between many of the threads you quoted as the OMNI Top 10 of the moment and the lounge threads.

So, you're saying that you'd be all for having the lounge threads moved to an OMNI subforum and not having posts there count?

My issue with the lounge threads is that posts there are generally off-topic, but posts there count, while those same off-topic posts made in OMNI do not. If the lounge threads build community, great. However, OMNI builds community too, and as such, why are posts there treated differently than anywhere else?

Either have the posts in OMNI count, or move the lounge threads so that those posts don't count either.

yes, that's my point of view and it seems fair in consideration of OMNI posts, as it's only a matter of counting or not.

- How do you get rid of fridge odors?

- The "misunderstand this post and reply" thread

- Do you shop at Trader Joe's?

- Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member To Post? An OMNI Game

- :rolleyes: [merged threads]

- Anyone else hate Apple?

- has Boston become the most successful sports city in the country?

- The Pavilion: OMNI Cricket Thread

- Newest OMNI waste of time - count UP to 100,000

- Red Sox vs. Yankees - 2011

OMNI's Top Ten of the moment

Which will surely be replaced with ten number counting threads the minute OMNI posts count again. I'm not the only one here that remembers the front page of OMNI being full of those back when posts did count and posters getting tens of thousands of posts in them. The high poster, IIRC, got 30,000 posts over a few different counting threads.

Is that the direction the Talk Board really wants to go in? I really wish Talk Board would have discussed this with the members BEFORE putting it out for a vote so you could have crafted a motion that included what to do with number counting threads.

The Talk Board should vote against this motion and come back to the table with a proposal that will spin off number counting threads to a new forum (OMNI GAMES), and only then count the remaining OMNI posts which require posters to at least type out a few lines or paragraphs. It's time to recognize those posts, and posters, who do more than type a number and give them at least the same recognition that lounge threads currently receive. A couple paragraphs on the budget debate or satellite radio should be worth as least as much as a "good morning" in the Community lounge thread.

Why do we count posts in the first place on a forum? If its not to abstractly apply some level of understanding/competence to the poster then I'm not sure what it is used for or what value it provides.

A post is a post is a post. I see plenty of posts that do count that are far less erudite, amusing, thoughtful, etc. etc. than plenty that are in OMNI. If you want to get serious about all posts then review each one and then decide if it counts, other than that just let a post count as a post and get on with it. Please. :D

Why do we count posts in the first place on a forum?

For the same reason it 'matters', for example, in LA whether you drive a fancy car or a Toyota. We are a shallow people. Live it. Love it. ^ :p

I am opposed to posts made in OMNI counting toward a member's overall post total.

Why do we count posts in the first place on a forum? If its not to abstractly apply some level of understanding/competence to the poster then I'm not sure what it is used for or what value it provides.

It is merely an indicator of how many times someone has posted. It is not an indicator of anything else.

I am opposed to posts made in OMNI counting toward a member's overall post total.

Do you think its good idea to restore the post count again?

No to counting posts in OMNI. Randy had it right. Most (all?) of the threads in OMNI have nothing to do with FT. Apart from the counting threads ther e are the truly pointless ones. What do these have to do with the principal reasons we are all here?

Yes, He had right to disable the post count. Because they aren't allowed to restore the post count for any much longer. They won't be reactivation the post count for a quite long time. Maybe there is a forever.

How about resetting everyone’s posts to zero? Then Don’t count Lounge Threads and Omni.. Everyone can regain their evangelist status without having the clout of Omni and Lounge threads hanging around them..

Then Don’t count Lounge Threads and Omni..

The board software does not have the capability to disallow counting posts in lounge threads, so long as the threads stay in their parent forum.

How about resetting everyone’s posts to zero?

With the 180 post requirement to access OMNI, there would be a flurry of "me too" posts to get back in. :eek::D

The board software does not have the capability to disallow counting posts in lounge threads, so long as the threads stay in their parent forum.

I guess just create a Omni Lounge Sub Forum... And have the mods move any OT threads that pops up, this time around ;)

With the 180 post requirement to access OMNI, there would be a flurry of "me too" posts to get back in. :eek::D

Seeing as Omni can be masked for certain posters, I think it’ll just take some work by the mods or Ib or whomever does it, to allow Omni access to every user that joined before 2011 and I'm pretty sure the 180 posts don't matter when the access is physically controlled

The lounge threads were the worst thing to happen to Flyertalk.

+100

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but out of curiosity, what makes you say "were the worst thing to happen to Flyertalk"?

The Talk Board should vote against this motion and come back to the table with a proposal that will spin off number counting threads to a new forum (OMNI GAMES), and only then count the remaining OMNI posts which require posters to at least type out a few lines or paragraphs. It's time to recognize those posts, and posters, who do more than type a number and give them at least the same recognition that lounge threads currently receive. A couple paragraphs on the budget debate or satellite radio should be worth as least as much as a "good morning" in the Community lounge thread.

This is an interesting proposition. I'm still inclined to oppose counting for non-travel-related posts, but I do recognize the significant community-building function of OT posts, and your idea actually goes a long way to splitting the difference. ^

All posts should count. Really

It is merely an indicator of how many times someone has posted. It is not an indicator of anything else.

I am afraid that when that post count produces a title, which is essence says that this person is an Expert - even if the actual title is more vague - then it goes further than merely indicating the number of times posted. It adds gravitas to the posters submissions in the eyes of new members, and imbues their posts with a great significance by dint of their title. That is not always appropriate.

I am opposed to posts made in OMNI counting toward a member's overall post total.

How about the lounge threads then? Same opposition?

I am afraid that when that post count produces a title, which is essence says that this person is an Expert - even if the actual title is more vague - then it goes further than merely indicating the number of times posted. It adds gravitas to the posters submissions in the eyes of new members, and imbues their posts with a great significance by dint of their title. That is not always appropriate.

FT titles are a sign of what expertise? Being an expert in making enough posts (or in doing something else) to generate an FT title ought not to impress any reasonable person the way the content of the post(s) may.

Coming up with policies to deal with a minority of persons with limited capacity to judge appropriately for themselves without paying attention to FT titles seems to be a less efficient course of concern than seeing what fails the majority capable of exercising their own judgment reasonably. If even the majority are incapable of reasonable exercises of judgment without paying attention to FT titles, wouldn't that be a reason to get rid of FT titles at least under ordinary member handles?

How about the lounge threads then? Same opposition?

No, not a specific time to post the lounge thread.

All posts should count. Really

Agreed. They should be reinstates the post count again.

"Good morning, thread."

That is not always appropriate.

Understatement of the day award. ^

FT titles are a sign of what expertise? Being an expert in making enough posts (or in doing something else) to generate an FT title ought not to impress any reasonable person the way the content of the post(s) may.

Coming up with policies to deal with a minority of persons with limited capacity to judge appropriately for themselves without paying attention to FT titles seems to be a less efficient course of concern than seeing what fails the majority capable of exercising their own judgment reasonably. If even the majority are incapable of reasonable exercises of judgment without paying attention to FT titles, wouldn't that be a reason to get rid of FT titles at least under ordinary member handles?

This sounds like one of those "It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it" arguments. A load of crap. Stuffing your underwear or bra to make things seem more than they are (i.e., counting OMNI posts) doesn't make it bigger or better, but it does get people to look and pay more attention than they should.

"Good morning, thread."



Understatement of the day award. ^

Good afternoon to you, too. we are understand if they want to reinstating the post count again. TB will have a consider to restore the post count, if necessary. If they behave and not try to padding the post count. Hopefully, if they will learn some lesson to followed the specific rules.

This sounds like one of those "It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it" arguments. A load of crap.

If it sounds like that, then does that mean it makes sense to get rid of post counts as well? Or then does that mean it makes sense to judge content of a post by the poster's post count?

Stuffing your underwear or bra to make things seem more than they are (i.e., counting OMNI posts) doesn't make it bigger or better, but it does get people to look and pay more attention than they should.

".... wouldn't that be a reason to get rid of FT titles at least under ordinary member handles?" ;)

".... wouldn't that be a reason to get rid of FT titles at least under ordinary member handles?" ;)

Yes indeed it would, and once we have a motion that combines restoring OMNI post counts and abolishing titles I'll be happy to consider it seriously.

If it sounds like that, then does that mean it makes sense to get rid of post counts as well? Or then does that mean it makes sense to judge content of a post by the poster's post count?

FWIW MHO is if we're doing away with titles we should do away with post counts at the same time. If titles convey something to some members then the same could be said about post counts.

Leave well enough alone. The system works just fine. Leave the post counts and the titles and OMNI as is.

Thanks.

My preference is to not display post counts or titles at all (I don't mind them being tracked "behind the scenes" for their current purposes of restricting access to CC and OMNI) but since that is not the proposal on the table...

I think all posts should count, as there is no way to distinguish that one post, in one location, is more "valuable" than any other.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but out of curiosity, what makes you say "were the worst thing to happen to Flyertalk"?


I get it that people are bored and have nothing to do. They're posting because they have some time to kill. Takes up lots of space for nothing. That's their perogative. Wouldn't it be nice of some of these posters headed to Chat for real time conversation. @:-) ;)

Since I have nothing to do right now, I know that if I put my mind to it, I can think of a few thread ideas for the various forums that I visit. One or 2 of those threads may even be a good one. :o :D

I get it that people are bored and have nothing to do. They're posting because they have some time to kill. Takes up lots of space for nothing. That's their perogative. Wouldn't it be nice of some of these posters headed to Chat for real time conversation. @:-) ;)

I don't post in the Delta Lounge Thread or the Alaska Airlines Lounge Thread because I'm bored. I find value in forming relationships with community members there.

Now, the Penalty Box, on the other hand... :p

I have tried going to Chat, but 99% of the time I try, it's empty and I'm the only one there.

Yes indeed it would, and once we have a motion that combines restoring OMNI post counts and abolishing titles I'll be happy to consider it seriously.

Do you agree with everyone else who wants to restoring the post count again? I wasn't aware of that. If they behave and not try to caused anymore problem for this time. If TB or Community Manager will have a consider. They have decide to whether if they will reinstating the post count again. I'm not too seriously about Randy-San who has already disabled the post count. Which is why lots of those people who trying to padding the post count a couple years ago.

I have tried going to Chat

Maybe we should call it Wine Chat. ;) :p
Chat is active in the 11:00pm Eastern / 8:00pm Pacific hour.

Maybe we should call it Wine Chat. ;) :p
Chat is active in the 11:00pm Eastern / 8:00pm Pacific hour.
7pm Alaska? I've just barely had my morning coffee by then and am usually swamped at work. :p

One benefit of the lounge threads: I can participate at my leisure. I can also read back anything that I might have missed while sleeping. ;)

Maybe we should call it Wine Chat. ;) :p
Chat is active in the 11:00pm Eastern / 8:00pm Pacific hour.

Off-topic:

Years ago there were 2 chat timeframes. Those from east coast who went on more at the 8-9pm timeframe & then the 11:00++pm group, both of which were 'after work' even for the west coast folk. I used to participate more in the former than the latter, although the former eventually disappeared. At that time I switched to the latter when I was in California, because it was still relatively early CA time. Now that I'm on east coast time zone I don't participate in chat as much because 11:00pm-1:00am is just too late for me normally, unless I happen to be up late to talk to Oz or Japan client. I wish we still had folk participating in the earlier chat timeframe.

FWIW - while the 'wine chat' :p is pretty busy & is a 'community', not everyone is willing to stay up late when they have be up at 6-7am, so I do think some folk miss out on the chat experience - if they're even aware chat exists ;)

Cheers.

Off-topic:

Years ago there were 2 chat timeframes. Those from east coast who went on more at the 8-9pm timeframe & then the 11:00++pm group, both of which were 'after work' even for the west coast folk. I used to participate more in the former than the latter, although the former eventually disappeared. At that time I switched to the latter when I was in California, because it was still relatively early CA time. Now that I'm on east coast time zone I don't participate in chat as much because 11:00pm-1:00am is just too late for me normally, unless I happen to be up late to talk to Oz or Japan client. I wish we still had folk participating in the earlier chat timeframe.

FWIW - while the 'wine chat' :p is pretty busy & is a 'community', not everyone is willing to stay up late when they have be up at 6-7am, so I do think some folk miss out on the chat experience - if they're even aware chat exists ;)

Cheers.
It's been years since I've frequented chat, because any time I stop by, it's empty.

I also don't believe OMNI (and lounge posts) should count towards official FT post count because they are off-topic, even if they are part of what gives it the community feeling where things outside of flying, miles, etc can be discussed.

How about resetting everyone’s posts to zero? Then Don’t count Lounge Threads and Omni.. Everyone can regain their evangelist status without having the clout of Omni and Lounge threads hanging around them..

Interesting idea... if I may take it one step further, how about requalifying every year? (New) Criteria for Lifetime status can be created, too. :D

No. I am firmly against this unless there is some acknowledgment of the ratio of actual travel related posts, as in:

1099/9999 where the first number is travel relevant posts and the second number is total posts including Omni.

If this passes, I will consider it yet another dilution of the FlyerTalk Travel community, ala no relevant travel post count requirements for posting in Coupon Connection.

I know and like members who are frequent Omni posters, and I have posted there occasionally myself, but really, what's the point of counting Omni posts? Why not just do away with post counts entirely?

Here's an idea: If you pass this, will you please also give members the option to disable seeing post counts? Ignore post count? Like ignore user and ignore signatures?

yet another dilution of the FlyerTalk Travel community

Amen.

I know and like members who are frequent Omni posters....

There are posters with 30,000+ posts with only a handful outside of the OMNIs. Hardly adds to the core mission of FT, which, as you point out is travel knowledge to share.

Amen.



There are posters with 30,000+ posts with only a handful outside of the OMNIs. Hardly adds to the core mission of FT, which, as you point out is travel knowledge to share.

Eh. The core mission is what the members make it to be. The founder is gone now. For me the core mission is the community around those who enjoy travel and want to maximize miles/points. Who says I'm wrong? And why is that opinion more important than mine?

FlyerTalk

FlyerTalk

I guess hotels and rental cars are out of bounds then. Just flying.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Whoopie do.

I refuse to let others tell me what this place is for me. It is what I (and other members) want it to be.

FlyerTalk... and where one stays between flights ...

Yes, of course. ^ ^

But not so much crickets, bulldogs, reality shows, whales, and Paris Hilton.

Although there is a cadre of folks who have settled like squatters and seldom offer their wisdom and thoughts (which I'm quite sure they have, and I don't understand why they don't want to share their travel insights) in the areas for which this community actually exists.

Our loss, unfortunately, since I know they'd be able to contribute good stuff on hotels, restaurants, travel tips and then OMNI would become for them too what it was always meant to be - a side-attraction to occasionally enjoy.

Too bad all around.

I refuse to let others tell me what this place is for me. It is what I (and other members) want it to be.

Well, actually, its suppsoed to be what Randy (wanted) it to be. @:-)

Although there is a cadre of folks who have settled like squatters.....

Sounds like some of the volunteers, elected or otherwise!:D

Well, actually, its suppsoed to be what Randy (wanted) it to be. @:-) In case you missed it, Randy sold to Internet Brands which then sold itself to a Hedge fund for 600 million+......This place would not exist be it not for those of us that provide the information posted here. Randy has a new place, it is called Milepoint and is tangent to this conversation. It still comes down to who provides the most "looks" for the website, and guess what it comes from the off-topic forums and threads.....not the mile and point forums !

Well, actually, its suppsoed to be what Randy (wanted) it to be. @:-)

Randy's gone. And he hasn't owned the place for quite some time now.

No. I am firmly against this unless there is some acknowledgment of the ratio of actual travel related posts, as in:

1099/9999 where the first number is travel relevant posts and the second number is total posts including Omni.

If this passes, I will consider it yet another dilution of the FlyerTalk Travel community, ala no relevant travel post count requirements for posting in Coupon Connection.

I know and like members who are frequent Omni posters, and I have posted there occasionally myself, but really, what's the point of counting Omni posts? Why not just do away with post counts entirely?

Here's an idea: If you pass this, will you please also give members the option to disable seeing post counts? Ignore post count? Like ignore user and ignore signatures?The issue, at it's core, is not about post counts.

It's about counting some off topic posts and not others. It's completely inconsistent.

Randy one day decided not to count Omni posts any longer and poof - it happened. No input from the talk board or membership. They just stopped counting.

However, contests, birthday threads, and lounge threads, which are all OT continue to count.

I actually couldn't care less if counts were removed altogether.

If this passes, I will consider it yet another dilution of the FlyerTalk Travel community, ala no relevant travel post count requirements for posting in Coupon Connection.
If you are referencing OMNI, it's wrong. To access OMNI, you need to have 180 posts/180 days of membership, which are the same requirements needed to access Coupon Connection.

However, one could meet your "no relevant travel post count requirements for posting in Coupon Connection," by simply posting "good morning" once a day from the day they join in one of the lounge threads.

The issue, at it's core, is not about post counts.

It's about counting some off topic posts and not others. It's completely inconsistent.

Randy one day decided not to count Omni posts any longer and poof - it happened. No input from the talk board or membership. They just stopped counting.

However, contests, birthday threads, and lounge threads, which are all OT continue to count.



Yes, this IS the core issue. And I do hope it's what the TB members considering this issue stay focused on.

Lounge threads, birthday threads, THIS thread. All count. Yet have nothing to to with travel. Why the inconsistency? Because Randy decided for whatever reason to make it so. And now, guess what? On his new site ALL posts count, wherever they are posted. EVEN RANDY DECIDED TREATING POSTS DIFFERENTLY WAS A MISTAKE!!!!

Yes, this IS the core issue. And I do hope it's what the TB members considering this issue stay focused on.

Lounge threads, birthday threads, THIS thread. All count. Yet have nothing to to with travel. Why the inconsistency? Because Randy decided for whatever reason to make it so.

Well-said on all counts.

And now, guess what? On his new site ALL posts count, wherever they are posted. EVEN RANDY DECIDED TREATING POSTS DIFFERENTLY WAS A MISTAKE!!!!

Well, of course, the real reason that all posts suddenly counted here was rather different, wasn't it?

Well, of course, the real reason that all posts suddenly counted here was rather different, wasn't it?

If you are talking about the contractual/legal issues between Randy and IB, I think you have that backwards.

All posts including OMNI counted the same when Randy was sole owner of FT (same as they do now on his new IBB).

He unilaterally decided they don't count (and never should have counted) after he had sold to IB. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/9243858-post71.html)

We have to take him at his word for his reasoning, but the reality is that his 'post a random thought contests' did start in Community not long after that.

In any case, whatever the history or behind-the-scenes money drama (or not), what's clear is that today certain off-topic threads count, certain ones do not. It's inconsistent and illogical.

If you are talking about the contractual/legal issues between Randy and IB, I think you have that backwards.

All posts including OMNI counted the same when Randy was sole owner of FT (same as they do now on his new IBB).

He unilaterally decided they don't count (and never should have counted) after he had sold to IB. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/9243858-post71.html)

We have to take him at his word for his reasoning, but the reality is that his 'post a random thought contests' did start in Community not long after that.

In any case, whatever the history or behind-the-scenes money drama (or not), what's clear is that today certain off-topic threads count, certain ones do not. It's inconsistent and illogical.

I'm impressed. My black helicopter brigade never quite made it down into those canyons, but what you're implying makes perfect sense. I'm stunned I didn't see it before.

I'm impressed. My black helicopter brigade never quite made it down into those canyons, but what you're implying makes perfect sense. I'm stunned I didn't see it before.

Well, I do have the unfair advantage of having read the lawsuits that IB and Randy exchanged over post-padding (and therefore revenue-padding) accusations. ;)

But as I say, that's all under the bridge. The question today is: why do certain off-topic posts count but others do not. Why are Lounge 'nonsense posts' counted while OMNI 'nonsense posts' are not?

There is no reason.

So count them all or count none of them.

Well, I do have the unfair advantage of having read the lawsuits that IB and Randy exchanged over post-padding (and therefore revenue-padding) accusations. ;)

No, no, no, I get all that. I read through some of that stuff until I got seriously bored. ;)

But I didn't get any kind of connection (or the blatant inconsistency) between OMNI post-counts being shut off and the contest threads having post counts that, umm, counted. I wonder how many entries those contests would've had if the post counts had been turned off during those contests.

I just don't get how some can ignore those inconsistencies. Either eliminate the post counts, make everything count, or make everything not points/miles/travel related not count. Isn't it really that easy?

In case you missed it, Randy sold to Internet Brands which then sold itself to a Hedge fund for 600 million+......This place would not exist be it not for those of us that provide the information posted here. Randy has a new place, it is called Milepoint and is tangent to this conversation. It still comes down to who provides the most "looks" for the website, and guess what it comes from the off-topic forums and threads.....not the mile and point forums !

Randy's gone. And he hasn't owned the place for quite some time now.

Yeah, um, didn't miss it. Which is why "wanted" in my post, is (wanted) in my post. In case you missed it, it's past tense. And yes, I'm a member of Milepoint as well.

In any event there Shoe Guy, the most "looks", lol, isn't what the site's all about (read the story on the conception of the site). Its about miles and points, and the forums therein - not the off-topic forums and threads. Its what it was conceived as, and had been for years (as a long-time lurker prior to joining, I'm well aware of the paradigm shift that occurred with Omni), and now, like a cancer that spreads, the Lounge forums and Omni are displacing what this site was intended for.

Yeah, um, didn't miss it. Which is why "wanted" in my post, is (wanted) in my post. In case you missed it, it's past tense. And yes, I'm a member of Milepoint as well.

In any event there Shoe Guy, the most "looks", lol, isn't what the site's all about (read the story on the conception of the site). Its about miles and points, and the forums therein - not the off-topic forums and threads. Its what it was conceived as, and had been for years (as a long-time lurker prior to joining, I'm well aware of the paradigm shift that occurred with Omni), and now, like a cancer that spreads, the Lounge forums and Omni are displacing what this site was intended for.

Fact is, if it wasn't for the community holding FT together, how many people would come back day after day after day *just* for the points and miles discussion. I'd come back a couple times a week, tops.

Like I always scream loud and long: It's the community.

Yeah, um, didn't miss it. Which is why "wanted" in my post, is (wanted) in my post. In case you missed it, it's past tense. And yes, I'm a member of Milepoint as well.

In any event there Shoe Guy, the most "looks", lol, isn't what the site's all about (read the story on the conception of the site). Its about miles and points, and the forums therein - not the off-topic forums and threads. Its what it was conceived as, and had been for years (as a long-time lurker prior to joining, I'm well aware of the paradigm shift that occurred with Omni), and now, like a cancer that spreads, the Lounge forums and Omni are displacing what this site was intended for.
Oy.

Some history of how OMNI actually evolved:

Randy Petersen wrote:



Adding to Kokonutz's recollections:

I don't think I came up with it, but I do agree that it's use within the context of FlyerTalk, took on a life of it's own. Here's it's history as I recall it:

Back in the earliest days of FlyerTalk, most of the general travel talk (not specific travel provider related) took place in what was then the main all-purpose travel forum: MilesBuzz (or The Buzz as it was known then). In the normal course of travel related discussions, the conversations tended to wander off-subject as folks either brought forth loosely related stories and reports, or just started talking about their families or problems or jobs or what-have-you. What we used to do was preface a post that was not about the subject of the original thread with something like "Well, I'm going a bit OMNI here..." Meaning that the subject was going Omni-directional. Capable of going outward in any direction away from the original subject. That sort of thing.

As the first indications of a true "community" started to develop, it was Jaws43 who first created an OMNI thread, as a place we could start to put all sorts of non-frequent travel info into. Sort of what the OMNI Forum is today, only contained within one thread. Here's the first general dedicated OMNI thread from 1998:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181

The above was even before the Merry Flyer thread koko posted above.

That was followed by many more OMNI threads that usually contained "OMNI" in the thread's subject title as a sort of warning for those only interested in frequent flyer threads...that they could avoid that one if they wished. Here's a typical example of another of those with an OMNI warning of sorts in it's subject title:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262

The word OMNI had taken on a life of it's own at FlyerTalk. Aside from the use of OMNI to mean basically anything that wasn't travel related, FlyerTalkers Rudi and Catman instituted the "OMNI Award" which was a fun little award given to those that helped foster the earliest "community spirit" of FlyerTalk (of which I was a proud recipient for my FlyerTalk Party In Paradise (http://members.aol.com/hawaiipip) work). As an example of that, here's a thread from 1999 when the OMNI Award was presented to Jon Toner for his "poetic" postings on FlyerTalk:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197795

With the growth of FlyerTalk over the years, it became clear that The Buzz was becoming too cluttered with OMNI-esque threads, and so during one of the major re-designs of FlyerTalk...OMNI got it's own "omni-directional" forum.

So the use of the word is a bit unique in the context of FlyerTalk. Something that's specific to FlyerTalk's past history. Not making any comment or suggestions here. Just a bit of background and what I think Randy is referring to in the quote above.

All caps or upper and lower cased? I don't think it made any difference to us back then and we used both interchangeably. Omni and OMNI. :)

So, as you see, OMNI has been here since the start. And just like the Lounge threads it evolved out of a desire to build community around the points and miles threads.

That's why, with the perspective of having been here through the miles/point only to OMNI threads to OMNI forum evolution, it makes absolutely no sense that the 'young omni' (aka Lounge threads) are treated differently than 'old OMNI,' (aka OMNI and OMNI/PR).

They should all count or none of them should. @:-)

I'd never even heard of or looked at the OMNI forum until this thread came up in FlyerTalk Mail!

I want to make a point that others have made before, which I think is crucially important to what FT stands for.

I joined FT nearly 10 years ago for the same reasons that many are here; to learn from the experience of others, as well as to share my own, in matters relevant to frequent (or perhaps infrequent) travellers. Over this time and through about 4,500 posts, I have learned a lot and I have passed on a great deal of knowledge, some of it recycled from the obsession of others.

Whilst admittedly a crude tool, the number of posts a FT member has is a useful sign of experience. Yes, a new member may come with a lot of useful information, but a member who has taken the time to post 2,000 responses in XX airline forum probably has a pretty good idea what they are talking about, and I consequently value their opinion.

If I knew that a FT member had achieved their post-count by playing the counting game or similar time-wasting exercises, I'm not sure I would come to FT for advice.

I suppose what I'm saying is that OMNI, in my opinion, does not really belong to FT at all. I view it as the 'garbage can' that non-travel topics get sent to. If you want to talk about, for example, why your begonias don't flower in June, find a horticultural bulletin board to vent.

So if we look at who has posted most to this thread, we find that they are mostly those who do NOT post in OMNI - or haven't for years now. :D :D I'll let that fact speak for itself, but aside from that:

Yes, we could go elsewhere to ask off-topic questions, but if that's what was intended, then why did Randy decide to provide the e-space for it HERE? Duh, because it helps build community, just as every other forum does. Or, as some have suggested, it helps the site fluff up it's, whatever, page views. Who cares.

When people here try to argue that Coupon Connection has a flyer-related purpose, I'm reminded of that disgusting expression, "Weapons of Mass Destruction Program-related activities", which was, of course, reason number 7 or 8 for having invaded Iraq.

Not only that... it seems that people are missing the core issue that was even noted in Talk Mail.

It's about consistency, not post counts.

So if we look at who has posted most to this thread, we find that they are mostly those who do NOT post in OMNI - or haven't for years now. :D :D I'll let that fact speak for itself

More evidence that the OMNItes don't care about the rest of Flyertalk.

Omni has nothing to do with flying, miles, hotels, or car rentals. It's a free-for-all. Posts on it are meaningless, and including them in the post count is meaningless. One of the few parameters of trustworthiness (and it's certainly not foolproof) is the length of time that someone has been involved with the site. Post count is a reflection of that time.

Adding numbers to 100,000 and guessing who's going to post next only inflate post count and trivialize the reason that we are here.

Let's keep this relative and important to the reason we all joined. And not turn this into StupidTalk.com

I would be thrilled if one of three things happened:

(1) All OMNI posts count, even those posted during the time after Randy stopped making them count.

(2) If OMNI posts don't count, then all posts EVER made in OMNI should not count. There are quite a few evangelists (and a legend or two) who have significant numbers of "counted" posts from OMNI. Why should those posts count and those made today not count? It gives preference to those who were members longer and posted more in OMNI during the period where those posts counted.

(3) Remove all post counts and titles related to post counts. That's my favorite choice, but nobody will make that proposal.

It's funny to me how nobody cares....except everyone that seems to care one way or another.

Exactly. Either of these three are fine with me also. ^

Omni has nothing to do with flying, miles, hotels, or car rentals. It's a free-for-all. Posts on it are meaningless, and including them in the post count is meaningless. One of the few parameters of trustworthiness (and it's certainly not foolproof) is the length of time that someone has been involved with the site. Post count is a reflection of that time.

Adding numbers to 100,000 and guessing who's going to post next only inflate post count and trivialize the reason that we are here.

Let's keep this relative and important to the reason we all joined. And not turn this into StupidTalk.com

Post count isn't a reflection of how long someone has been involved with this site. Someone can rack up thousands of posts in lounge threads, saying, "good morning," "good afternoon," good evening," "how is everyone," and various other off-topic posts, within a matter of days and months.

In the week or two leading up to when OMNI was locked, there were many members with under 100 posts that, by the time OMNI was locked, met at least the minimum requirements for access. If they can gain 80-90 posts in a week or two, how is post count a reflection of how long someone has been involved with this site?

The date joined is a reflection of how long they've been involved with this site, but not post counts.

I'm done with this nonsense. Toodles. :D

I think OMNI posts should not count. If they did there would suddenly be a lot of Evangelists and possibly even Legends that contributed only very little useful information.

Post count isn't a reflection of how long someone has been involved with this site. Someone can rack up thousands of posts in lounge threads, saying, "good morning," "good afternoon," good evening," "how is everyone," and various other off-topic posts, within a matter of days and months.



Zactly. I could post this 1,000 times in the Penalty Box (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16845000-post2009.html) thread in UA.

I could post something like this, even LESS relevant (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16454024-post1201.html).

Someone, please tell me how it makes any sense whatsoever that those count and OMNI posts do not.

(although, let's be honest, when I want to go on a posting run, I simply pop into TB topics, where all posts count!) ;)

I think OMNI posts should not count. If they did there would suddenly be a lot of Evangelists and possibly even Legends that contributed only very little useful information.

There already are. Many, many OMNI posts counted for a long time and those post counts were not removed retroactively when Randy made his middle-of-the-night unilateral decision to remove post counts.

Without meaningless forums like Omni, those other "good mornings" average out over time. People don't generally post repeated "good mornings" to boost a post count. But when you pile on post after post after post playing stupid number and guessing games, it's no longer able to average into something meaningful.

I was going to make a snide suggestion that we add another stupid forum, but I couldn't think of anything worse than Omni...

Post count isn't a reflection of how long someone has been involved with this site. Someone can rack up thousands of posts in lounge threads, saying, "good morning," "good afternoon," good evening," "how is everyone," and various other off-topic posts, within a matter of days and months.

In the week or two leading up to when OMNI was locked, there were many members with under 100 posts that, by the time OMNI was locked, met at least the minimum requirements for access. If they can gain 80-90 posts in a week or two, how is post count a reflection of how long someone has been involved with this site?

The date joined is a reflection of how long they've been involved with this site, but not post counts.

Post Count ???? I thought the entire idea of the site was an exchange of thoughts and ideas relating to air travel, not some sand box fraternity of numbers relating to someone seeking an achievement badge in keyboard.
How about little propeller beanies to wear in airports so everyone knows who you are ? Maybe a mission statement also, just to stay with the trendy factor.
I'm going back to eyes only status and wade thru the blah, blah.

Without meaningless forums like Omni, those other "good mornings" average out over time. People don't generally post repeated "good mornings" to boost a post count. But when you pile on post after post after post playing stupid number and guessing games, it's no longer able to average into something meaningful.

I was going to make a snide suggestion that we add another stupid forum, but I couldn't think of anything worse than Omni...
People do find reasons to post to boost a post count either through posting in lounge threads, or by amping up posts in other forums. One poster that I noticed, as late as March 12, didn't have 180 posts, and, IIRC, only had 80 or 90 some, yet, by the time OMNI was masked on March 18, had gained those required 90-100 posts. So, in less than a week's time, they were able to add that many posts?

There have been other posts here, IIRC, about people who have racked up thousands of posts in lounge forums only.

My view is that as OMNI is, by it's very nature not central to Flyertalk, (points and miles anyone), I do not support allowing OMNI posts to count where this would have the effect of conferring the title 'Evangelist' on people who have posted 180 times on Miles and Points and the 9820 times in OMNI when the board is about Miles and Points. (Accept this is an extreme example).

Therefore on this occasion I will not be supporting this motion.

I agree completely with this. Flyertalk is Flyertalk. Omni may be a nice home for some few Flyertalkers to gather and discuss non-travel issues, but it should not be in any way a central part of Flyertalk. I understand that there are financial issues involved, but I am sure that IB can keep track of Omni posts to represent to advertisers how busy their site is. It doesn't need to be included in our post counts.

I agree completely with this. Flyertalk is Flyertalk. Omni may be a nice home for some few Flyertalkers to gather and discuss non-travel issues, but it should not be in any way a central part of Flyertalk. I understand that there are financial issues involved, but I am sure that IB can keep track of Omni posts to represent to advertisers how busy their site is. It doesn't need to be included in our post counts.


FlyerTalk is a community. Part of it has to do with points and miles. OMNI is a part of the community, too. Not everyone feels as you do.

FlyerTalk is a community. Part of it has to do with points and miles. OMNI is a part of the community, too. Not everyone feels as you do.

No, not true. Everyone participates in Frequent travel talk. Only a small subset participate in Omni. Thus it is really not part of the community. And it could exist anywhere on the Internet.

No, not true. Everyone participates in Frequent travel talk. Only a small subset participate in Omni. Thus it is really not part of the community. And it could exist anywhere on the Internet.

If the community building parts of FT disappeared, the participation in the miles/points forums, IMO, would decrease dramatically. I know many people that have FT as their homepage -- I do as well. If I only had Delta and SPG to post in (the only programs where I accumulate miles/points), I'd check in once a week to make sure I didn't miss anything, not multiple times a day. Because of the "fun" forums around here, I always make sure to drop in the DL/SPG forums to see if I've missed anything or if I can answer a question. Wouldn't do it otherwise -- these programs (once you know them) can get pretty boring to deal with.

But I'd be all for that little experiment -- shut down everything that isn't miles/points related -- OMNIs, Lounges....let's see how busy FT is with little sense of community around it.

But I'd be all for that little experiment -- shut down everything that isn't miles/points related -- OMNIs, Lounges....let's see how busy FT is with little sense of community around it.

IMHO, and I really mean IMHO, that is a scare tactic without any teeth. Flyertalk is about travel and if we ended up losing a few people over not counting Omni posts, I say that is a price we can pay. I really doubt we would lose many people in any case. There are thousands of places to discuss politics and nonsense on the Internet. However there is only one Flyertalk.

And note that I am talking about Omni, not lounge threads. The few lounge threads that I participate in are mostly travel related (AF and LH) and I don't think there is any reason to change them. They don't have a high volume of posts in any case.

So when is the vote exactly? This is getting a little heated.

So when is the vote exactly? This is getting a little heated.

Currently underway: "This vote will close on August 8, 11 at 6:01 PM Pacific Time or after all TalkBoard members have registered their vote, whichever comes first."

However, contests, birthday threads, and lounge threads, which are all OT continue to count.

Posts to other OT threads count as well -- in at least one of the European airline programs, OT threads are a daily feature.

The lack of consistency in treatment is what unleashes questions that beg for answers.

Posts to other OT threads count as well -- in at least one of the European airline programs, OT threads are a daily feature.

The lack of consistency in treatment is what unleashes questions that beg for answers.

I would say those BA OT threads are not the same as 95% of Omni threads. Certainly no counting threads. It might be good to have slightly tighter moderation on that board, but it's mostly a great travel forum.

No, not true. Everyone participates in Frequent travel talk. Only a small subset participate in Omni. Thus it is really not part of the community. And it could exist anywhere on the Internet.

It may be only a "small subset" who participate but the OMNI's are the most popular forum on FT.

The OMNI post total is greater than the largest airline forum (The United/Continental Combined Forum) and larger than the Delta and American Airlines forums combined.

The folks who participate in the OMNI's are very enthusiastic and most of those who participate in the OMNI's would like their posts to count the same as those that are counted in other forums which are off-topic to miles and points.

This is, in part, why I support this motion and have voted in favor of it.

The OMNI post total is greater than the largest airline forum (The United/Continental Combined Forum) and larger than the Delta and American Airlines forums combined. Historically maybe, but not according to the latest stats on boardreader.com
http://boardreader.com/site/FlyerTalk_Forums_13531.html

Top 10 forums on FlyerTalk:

Delta SkyMiles - 203,072 posts
British Airways Executive Club - 190,676 posts
United Mileage Plus - 169,210 posts
American AAdvantage - 157,623 posts
Continental OnePass - 142,022 posts
Travel Safety/Security - 139,388 posts
Air Canada Aeroplan - 87,807 posts
MilesBuzz! - 65,266 posts
TravelBuzz! - 56,443 posts
US Airways Dividend Miles - 53,943 posts


Top 10 active forums on FlyerTalk during the last week:

British Airways Executive Club - 5,473 new posts
Delta SkyMiles - 3,751 new posts
American AAdvantage - 3,064 new posts
MilesBuzz! - 2,802 new posts
Travel Safety/Security - 2,752 new posts
United Mileage Plus - 1,985 new posts
TravelBuzz! - 1,614 new posts
Air Canada Aeroplan - 1,405 new posts
Continental OnePass - 1,182 new posts
Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and Other Partners) - 762 new posts

but I digress :)

Historically maybe, but not according to the latest stats on boardreader.com
http://boardreader.com/site/FlyerTalk_Forums_13531.html

I would suspect BoardReader, not being a member with greater than 180 posts, does not have access to OMNI. ;)

I would suspect BoardReader, not being a member with greater than 180 posts, does not have access to OMNI. ;)I was expecting to see at least one of the OMNI forums in the list. Now that you mention it the access restriction probably does mask OMNI content from the rankings. That said prior to the recent reinstatement of access restrictions the top five positions were regularly occupied by our airline forums.

I just looked.

Omni (non-P/R) 1.9 million posts
Omni P/R - 524k posts.

Yes, they're a little more than popular :)

Yes, they're a little more than popular :)Kinda begs the question, why change things? ;)

We should have asked Randy years ago... oh, we did. He never answered :D

Caused a huge inconsistency in off-topic posts, which exist everywhere on FT. Only Omni doesn't count.

It may be only a "small subset" who participate but the OMNI's are the most popular forum on FT.

It may be popular and it may be financially valuable to the owner of Flyertalk. But it is not the core of what Flyertalk is. Flyertalk's value is in the reliability of the information we provide, and it's interactive nature. That has zero to do with Omni. And including Omni post counts distorts that value.

I'm not saying get rid of Omni. It's fine and good to keep it. But including Omni post counts has always been a mistake and we should correct it now. What would that step harm? The egos of a few Omni maniacs? C'mon!

I just looked.

Omni (non-P/R) 1.9 million posts
Omni P/R - 524k posts.

Yes, they're a little more than popular :)

But if people just have threads to generate post counts then the statistic is kind of useless isn't it?

Not that it makes much difference ;) but I'll register my opposition to this motion. Posts not germane to the core of FT's mission should not count. The fact that "lounge" threads in other fora do count currently isn't an argument to permit OMNI posts to also count, it's an argument to exclude posts from those threads as well (although I'll admit that is much more technically challenging).

The folks who participate in the OMNI's are very enthusiastic and most of those who participate in the OMNI's would like their posts to count the same as those that are counted in other forums which are off-topic to miles and points.

LOL, I'm sure they would. Maybe they can start a website called OmniTalk, where their posts would and should count. Oh, and then they can tangentially touch upon topics such as, I dunno...travel.

Currently underway: "This vote will close on August 8, 11 at 6:01 PM Pacific Time or after all TalkBoard members have registered their vote, whichever comes first."

Good lord. These drag out a ridiculously long time.

The folks who participate in the OMNI's are very enthusiastic and most of those who participate in the OMNI's would like their posts to count the same as those that are counted in other forums which are off-topic to miles and points.

This is, in part, why I support this motion and have voted in favor of it.

The most enthusiastic posters in OMNI are those members that count numbers. There's been a lot of those threads over the years, but I do see one on the front page where two different members have posted a number over 18,000 times. If the motion ultimately passes it will be an exciting day for members that love to count.