Nordic Countries - Denmark and Schengen

A colleague has to visit Copenhagen for some meetings next month and is looking to understand the status of Denmark vis-a-vis the Schengen agreement following recent publicity regarding re-imposition of border controls.

Enquiries to the local Danish Embassy (the visa section is outsourced to VFS so questions are answered by local staff rather than consular staff) reveal that "Travelers to Denmark from Ghana must hold visas issued by a Danish mission abroad". There is no mention about Schengen visas being still valid for Denmark, although the default Danish visa issued is a Schengen visa.

Accordingly, he felt that it was best to apply for a Schengen visa from the Danish Embassy prior to travel. The problem is that he already holds a 2-year multiple entry Schengen visa issued by the Dutch Embassy here earlier this year. The VFS staff advise that in order to apply for a Schengen visa at the Danish Embassy, he will have to request the Dutch Embassy to CANCEL his existing valid Schengen visa. He would then obtain a single entry Danish Schengen visa and subsequently reapply for a new multi-entry Dutch Schengen visa after his return from Denmark. This does not work for him as he will be visiting the UK between his trips to Copenhagen and subsequently to Lithuania (via Frankfurt) and hence requires his multi-entry Schengen visa to remain valid.

The VFS staff are adamant that the new Danish border controls will NOT accept a Schengen visa issued by any member state other than Denmark to admit citizens of any African countries. However the catch-22 is that one can't get a Danish Schengen if one already holds a Schengen visa from another country.

Does anyone have any practical experience or clarification if the above is correct, because it seems a bit arse-backwards to me.

My knowledge of the situation comes from the (very extensive) coverage of the situation on TV and radio stations just across the German border (I was in Schleswig-Holstein when the changes were brought in) - so it may not necessarily be accurate or complete.

As I understand it Denmark has not left Schengen but has merely reintroduced identity checks for those entering the country from other Schengen countries - in much the same way as other countries have done for sporting fixtures and major political conferences, the only difference being that it's intended to be permanent.

While this media coverage mainly focused on aspects that were important to Germans (the effect on cross-border commuters, the inconvenience suffered by German tourists heading to Danish holiday cottages) there was no mention whatsoever of any changes to visa regulations - something which I'm sure would at least have got some fleeting coverage.

Have you tried to check with the authorities in Denmark, or a Danish government web site?

In practical terms, of the Ghanaian visitors to Sweden whom I know and arrived in Sweden on a Schengen visa from Sweden or another country, none has had a problem when crossing into Denmark on a Schengen visa to fly out of CPH.

I've been across the bridge between Denmark and Sweden dozens of times this summer -- this week included many times -- and there have been no ID checks on any of the trains on which I've been. Customs checks, yes, for some -- but that didn't involve asking for and being shown ID documents. Leaving CPH -- for a non-Schengen destination -- yes, but that hasn't resulted in any problems.

A lot of non-DK-issued Schengen visa holders exit the Schengen zone from CPH without a problem. And it is rather a daily occurrence without incident for most such people going from Sweden to Denmark using CPH.

Have you tried to check with the authorities in Denmark, or a Danish government web site?

The official word is that Denmark remains a member of Schengen. However, the local VFS office claims that the only way to ensure admission to Denmark is to get a new Danish visa. Since they get fees for every new application though, I have my doubts as to their credibility.

He spoke to the Dutch Embassy this morning and they laughed. They said that they cannot cancel his visa without putting a hit in SIS which would prevent him from obtaining another visa anyway.

He's leaning towards cancelling the Copenhagen leg of the trip and asking those folks to meet him in London instead.

He's leaning towards cancelling the Copenhagen leg of the trip and asking those folks to meet him in London instead.

I presume he would have stayed at a hotel in Denmark, and gone out for dinner, and spent money on all sorts of things... money which is now going elsewhere.

There is much speculation in Germany about how this could harm the Danish tourist industry... there are whole resorts on the West Coast which are almost entirely dependent on German tourists, and there is already a lot of talk of "not going there again if I have to queue at the border"

I think Denmark has shot itself in the foot!

There has been no change in Denmark's Schengen membership. All visas are valid as before, and a Schengen visa to Denmark, Sweden, Germany or any other Schengen country will remain valid - also in Denmark!

There are no passport control at intra-schengen borders, nor any police directly at any land borders. There are no identity checks at any intra-schengen borders. The only passport and identity controls will be at international airports and ports at arrival of aircrafts and ships from non-schengen countries such as USA, Canada, Ireland, UK, Russia, Turkey etc., such as at any other non-schengen border.

Denmark has increased the customs controls, roughly to the level of Sweden (who has customs officers present at all borders 24/7) and Germany.
Denmark has increased the number of customs officers with 11 (eleven!) as an increased effort to stop drug and weapons trafficking and other illegal activities. There are no permanent customs checks at any intra-schengen borders, only random checks.

The whole story is blown out of proportions.

As I understand it Denmark has not left Schengen but has merely reintroduced identity checks for those entering the country from other Schengen countries - in much the same way as other countries have done for sporting fixtures and major political conferences, the only difference being that it's intended to be permanent.


Just to repeat myself from the post above: No identity checks at any intra-schengen borders (Danish/German land border, ferry ports, intra-schengen airports). No permanent identity checks. No random identity checks. No permanent customs control. Just increased number of random customs checks.

The official word is that Denmark remains a member of Schengen. However, the local VFS office claims that the only way to ensure admission to Denmark is to get a new Danish visa. Since they get fees for every new application though, I have my doubts as to their credibility.

While I doubt their credibility, I have no doubt that their claim about how to get admission into Denmark is best characterized as a joke.

There has been no change in Denmark's Schengen membership. All visas are valid as before, and a Schengen visa to Denmark, Sweden, Germany or any other Schengen country will remain valid - also in Denmark!

There are no passport control at intra-schengen borders, nor any police directly at any land borders. There are no identity checks at any intra-schengen borders. The only passport and identity controls will be at international airports and ports at arrival of aircrafts and ships from non-schengen countries such as USA, Canada, Ireland, UK, Russia, Turkey etc., such as at any other non-schengen border.

Denmark has increased the customs controls, roughly to the level of Sweden (who has customs officers present at all borders 24/7) and Germany.
Denmark has increased the number of customs officers with 11 (eleven!) as an increased effort to stop drug and weapons trafficking and other illegal activities. There are no permanent customs checks at any intra-schengen borders, only random checks.

The whole story is blown out of proportions.

That's a pretty good summary even as I'd probably make some minor adjustments to some of the details. That said, this situation is all a ridiculous joke -- including the "ramp up" of customs checks.

Just to repeat myself from the post above: No identity checks at any intra-schengen borders (Danish/German land border, ferry ports, intra-schengen airports). No permanent identity checks. No random identity checks. No permanent customs control. Just increased number of random customs checks.



Are you sure that what you are saying is correct?

What I saw on NDR Television a couple of weeks ago (filmed live at the border) would suggest otherwise. Cars were being stopped and occupants had to show identity documents.

I hadn't seen your post when I wrote mine - they are timed just minutes apart.

Are you sure that what you are saying is correct?

What I saw on NDR Television a couple of weeks ago (filmed live at the border) would suggest otherwise. Cars were being stopped and occupants had to show identity documents.

I did see the whole press circus on TV on the "inauguration day" of the increased checks. Cars were stopped, but I am quite sure that no police check or immigration control was taking place, because customs officers are not allowed to do that. However, one of the reasons for the increase in controls were to check eastern european workers. Not for work permits, but to check if they are registered tax payers. Since the customs department and tax authority is the same in Denmark, they might have been checking that (which might require ID).

BTW, I am not defending the political decision. Just explaining it...

That's a pretty good summary even as I'd probably make some minor adjustments to some of the details. That said, this situation is all a ridiculous joke -- including the "ramp up" of customs checks.

I do agree that it is a joke. It is a populistic political barter.

But the worst thing is actually the double standards:
Sweden has had permanent custom controls at all borders since before they entered EU, Schengen and Nordic Passport Union. And after. Denmark is increasing the number of non-permanent checks - and now Sweden are criticizing Denmark... :rolleyes:

Germany and France are currently constructing a permanent police and customs control building at the Goldene Bremm border between Metz and Saarbrücken. When Denmark wants to build a shack for the customs controllers, where they can drink their coffee, we are being told... :rolleyes:

Which details would you adjust. Please explain.

I did see the whole press circus on TV on the "inauguration day" of the increased checks. Cars were stopped, but I am quite sure that no police check or immigration control was taking place, because customs officers are not allowed to do that. However, one of the reasons for the increase in controls were to check eastern european workers. Not for work permits, but to check if they are registered tax payers. Since the customs department and tax authority is the same in Denmark, they might have been checking that (which might require ID).

BTW, I am not defending the political decision. Just explaining it...

I can only go by what I saw on German television... identity checks on what were, very clearly, carloads of German tourists (German-registered cars, families inside). Maybe German and Danish television were filming different things...

I think Denmark has shot itself in the foot!

Indeed. It is confirmed now that the Danish folks he was due to meet will instead meet him in Vilnius, so "blown out of proportion" or not, Denmark's loss is Lithuania's gain.

I can only go by what I saw on German television... identity checks on what were, very clearly, carloads of German tourists (German-registered cars, families inside). Maybe German and Danish television were filming different things...

I have now checked what I could find on the www of clips from both Danish and German TV from that day. What I have noticed is especially Dutch and Belgian cars are getting pulled over.
When interviewed, politicians seems to be very critical to the controls, while the average citizens (including Germans) seems to think it is a good move.
I haven't seen ID control in any of the videos.

Here are some samples. Google for more:

http://videos.arte.tv/de/videos/daenemark_eingeschraenkte_reisefreiheit-4021924.html

http://videos.t-online.de/daenen-fuehren-grenzkontrolle-ein/id_47759230/index

http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-1136608.html

I do agree that it is a joke. It is a populistic political barter.

But the worst thing is actually the double standards:
Sweden has had permanent custom controls at all borders since before they entered EU, Schengen and Nordic Passport Union. And after. Denmark is increasing the number of non-permanent checks - and now Sweden are criticizing Denmark... :rolleyes:

Germany and France are currently constructing a permanent police and customs control building at the Goldene Bremm border between Metz and Saarbrücken. When Denmark wants to build a shack for the customs controllers, where they can drink their coffee, we are being told... :rolleyes:

Which details would you adjust. Please explain.

The situation is really a joke.

One of the details from the prior post which I would adjust is the mention of 24/7 customs at all border crossings/ports of entry in Sweden. It isn't 24/7 at all border crossings/ports of entry. Also, I have some doubt about the precise numbers.

Yes, Sweden does game around with various aspects of some EU accords --one of those games is the one about customs.

Swedish customs is doing the customs control job at Swedish-Danish crossings more than Danish customs is doing it ... and then the Swedes call the Danes. :D

Even as not much has changed for most practical purposes for most of those doing international travel into/out of Denmark, Denmark is getting negative PR as a country because of the border control game it is talking up and that others are talking up in turn.

Denmark does random immigration check. I watched a few episodes of a Danish TV show called 'Station 2'. They followed the police to perform immigration check at Roedby (ferry port to Germany), and between the Danish and German border, of course at CPH too.

I did slow down once by the Danish German border for custom check. It was before Denmark 'declare' their 'extensive' custome check.

Mr. Nacho crosses the bridge to Denmark to work and he said that it's definitely not true that there are customs 24/7. I saw they left their Saab 95 custom car out to make people think that they are around. They might be drinking coffee in a nice warm building. On average Mr. Nacho can pass through the custom bump 90% of the time without seeing an officier.

The scale is nothing like the Swiss borders.

I'm shocked to see how schengen works in my experience - when you take a long haul flight into the first schengen country, the immigration will let you through without saying a word if he/she sees your boarding pass for the connecting flight. Basically if you are not coming to my country, fine, go as you please. The only time they really check is if they have officiers checking passports at the end of the walkway just before entering the terminal. There they did check more thoroughly.

One of the details from the prior post which I would adjust is the mention of 24/7 customs at all border crossings/ports of entry in Sweden. It isn't 24/7 at all border crossings/ports of entry. Also, I have some doubt about the precise numbers.

There are customs control officers on duty 24/7 at all Swedish ports of entry. In Southern Sweden, there are six ports of entry.
Read this article: http://www.information.dk/telegram/273072 (use google translate)


The situation is really a joke.
...
Even as not much has changed for most practical purposes for most of those doing international travel into/out of Denmark, Denmark is getting negative PR as a country because of the border control game it is talking up and that others are talking up in turn.
I really agree. The bad PR is really bad for Denmark's reputation. While I do disagree with the political decision, and especially with the political party which got this thru in a dirty political barter, I do find it pathetic that especially German politicians are using the story to profile themselves. The Danish opposition politicians are also using the story in an unsympathetic way. And the media just loves stories like this.
B747-437B's friend is now traveling to Lithuania because of misunderstandings and bad PR. What can we Danes do about that? Please the EU some more? I am not sure...

There are customs control officers on duty 24/7 at all Swedish ports of entry. In Southern Sweden, there are six ports of entry.
Read this article: http://www.information.dk/telegram/273072 (use google translate)

From practical experience, I know that the first sentence above is not always the case -- that is unless the idea of toughening up/tighter border control for customs checks is that of a border-crossing individual calling up customs and waiting for who knows how long to get checked out. That too is rather farcical.

I really agree. The bad PR is really bad for Denmark's reputation. While I do disagree with the political decision, and especially with the political party which got this thru in a dirty political barter, I do find it pathetic that especially German politicians are using the story to profile themselves. The Danish opposition politicians are also using the story in an unsympathetic way. And the media just loves stories like this.
B747-437B's friend is now traveling to Lithuania because of misunderstandings and bad PR. What can we Danes do about that? Please the EU some more? I am not sure...

I agree with you in full about the above.

There is no easy solution about the PR problem, as once a hostile narrative has taken hold, too often it takes on a life of its own and can have negative consequences. This situation is not only a joke it is a pity given that what drove this may not be something supported by the majority of Danish citizens and yet it costs Denmark some business and other opportunities, perhaps more so costing those Danes who don't fancy that which brought this situation about this year.

I'm shocked to see how schengen works in my experience - when you take a long haul flight into the first schengen country, the immigration will let you through without saying a word if he/she sees your boarding pass for the connecting flight. Basically if you are not coming to my country, fine, go as you please. The only time they really check is if they have officiers checking passports at the end of the walkway just before entering the terminal. There they did check more thoroughly.

Presentation of valid passport for entry leading to no questions being asked seems a valid way of operating. That is the way that it usually goes at airports in most countries of the world.

But the worst thing is actually the double standards:
Sweden has had permanent custom controls at all borders since before they entered EU, Schengen and Nordic Passport Union. And after. Denmark is increasing the number of non-permanent checks - and now Sweden are criticizing Denmark... :rolleyes:

Germany and France are currently constructing a permanent police and customs control building at the Goldene Bremm border between Metz and Saarbrücken. When Denmark wants to build a shack for the customs controllers, where they can drink their coffee, we are being told... :rolleyes:




Well, I believe Denmark is just leading the way here and that you will see several other Schengen countries following this policy. Schengen has brought a lot of good things with it, but it is also a fact that the police (at least in Scandinavia) have big problems with criminals moving across borders to an extend newer seen before. I don't know if it's the best way to cope with this problem, but to put up more border controls at least give a very visual signal from the authorities that they try to deal with the situation.

Denmark and Sweden have had a Schengen type Nordic agreement for decades and it allowed travel without passports between the countries. The Danish customs from Sweden was always unmanned in those days but into Sweden there was always a customs presence. The other border from Germany into Denmark was always heavily manned by Danish customs but never by German customs. Quite often the police would even check and stamp passports. I had a few Rødby stamps in my old passports from childhood.

It was simply a function of the relative cost of goods, especially alcohol between the three countries. It is still true (although very high end booze is now comparable in price between Sweden and DK) but now you can take huge quantities of alcohol between the EU countries.

p.s. A friend of mine traveled to Germany from Sweden by air and noticed that his passport had expired the day before. You can get a one-trip-use Swedish passport at ARN but it is quite expensive. Most people and the German embassy insisted that it was necessary to have a passport. I advised otherwise and a friendly SAS agent at ARN concurred. One concern was returning from Germany and it made sense to avoid checking in with a human. However, the LH check-in machine insisted on scanning the passport. He used his expired passport and it worked. I guess that the official policy from Germany is that a Swede must carry a passport but is that not against the spirit of Schengen?

p.s. A friend of mine traveled to Germany from Sweden by air and noticed that his passport had expired the day before. You can get a one-trip-use Swedish passport at ARN but it is quite expensive. Most people and the German embassy insisted that it was necessary to have a passport. I advised otherwise and a friendly SAS agent at ARN concurred. One concern was returning from Germany and it made sense to avoid checking in with a human. However, the LH check-in machine insisted on scanning the passport. He used his expired passport and it worked. I guess that the official policy from Germany is that a Swede must carry a passport but is that not against the spirit of Schengen?

I don't know what check-in machines actually see when they scan a passport - it may well be that it's only the essential information (name/DOB) and not the validity date.

If this was a Swedish person going home then I very much doubt that a human check-in agent would have stopped them from getting onto the flight.