Just saw the promo card at the phl quality inn.
Starts may 19-Aug.
Same as the gas card with the cheap brands requiring 2 nights.
Capped at 2 free nights for general members and Gold, 4 nights for plat, and 10 nights for diamonds.
Also I believe it said plat and diamonds can book through any channel whereas others need to use choice.com or by phone to choice reservations.
Will be paid out in 8000 points just like past promos.
bestbet33
May 8, 11, 11:31 pm
Thanks for the info!! Looks like I will be doing some mattress running on my next few business trips.
lowfareair
May 9, 11, 9:24 am
Just saw the promo card at the phl quality inn.
Starts may 19-Aug.
Same as the gas card with the cheap brands requiring 2 nights.
Capped at 2 free nights for general members and Gold, 4 nights for plat, and 10 nights for diamonds.
Also I believe it said plat and diamonds can book through any channel whereas others need to use choice.com or by phone to choice reservations.
Will be paid out in 8000 points just like past promos.
By cheap brands, is it just Rodeway/EconoLodge, or are other down-market brands included (Sleep Inn, MainStay, etc.)?
BigLar
May 9, 11, 10:36 am
By cheap brands, is it just Rodeway/EconoLodge, or are other down-market brands included (Sleep Inn, MainStay, etc.)?Sleep Inns may be 'downmarket', but it turns out that most SI's are better than many, many of the Quality Inns I've stayed at. :)
lowfareair
May 9, 11, 12:52 pm
Sleep Inns may be 'downmarket', but it turns out that most SI's are better than many, many of the Quality Inns I've stayed at. :)
Agreed, was just providing an example.
This is my first time I might be participating in Choice (never really looked at the program until the discover America promo), so I have a couple questions in addition to the one above about Choice promos in general (since the stay 2 or 3 earn 8,000 points seems standard):
-Are the 8,000 points in addition to the regular points earned while staying?
-Is it good on prior bookings that I haven't checked in for yet (have a booking in August, not sure if I should cancel and rebook when this goes live)
stallion114
May 9, 11, 1:35 pm
You will only earn 8000 total points for your 2 stays (plus any elite bonuses).
So if you earn 1000 points on your first stay, the second stay will post as 7000. (8000 points-base points earned from first stay).
They always seem to do this, and pissed me off the first time, but I appreciate the steady stream of "stay 2" promos from choice.
Agreed, was just providing an example.
This is my first time I might be participating in Choice (never really looked at the program until the discover America promo), so I have a couple questions in addition to the one above about Choice promos in general (since the stay 2 or 3 earn 8,000 points seems standard):
-Are the 8,000 points in addition to the regular points earned while staying?
-Is it good on prior bookings that I haven't checked in for yet (have a booking in August, not sure if I should cancel and rebook when this goes live)
familyoutdoors
May 9, 11, 6:26 pm
Just saw the promo card at the phl quality inn.
Starts may 19-Aug.
Same as the gas card with the cheap brands requiring 2 nights.
Capped at 2 free nights for general members and Gold, 4 nights for plat, and 10 nights for diamonds.
Also I believe it said plat and diamonds can book through any channel whereas others need to use choice.com or by phone to choice reservations.
Will be paid out in 8000 points just like past promos.
New here and to all this...Is this promo only good at certain hotels like the gas promo working now? Also, if you stay the two nights how soon can you get the free night? I need to stay 3 nights in Flagstaff in August. Would appreciate the guidance.
BigLar
May 9, 11, 7:16 pm
New here and to all this...Is this promo only good at certain hotels like the gas promo working now? Also, if you stay the two nights how soon can you get the free night? I need to stay 3 nights in Flagstaff in August. Would appreciate the guidance.Just to be clear...
What you get after staying two nights is a boost up on the total points you earn for the two stays to a total of 8000 points (plus any elite bonuses you are entitled to). These points generally post to your account within a couple of days after the last stay.
There is no "free night voucher' or anything like that. What you get is enough points for a free reward night at some of the Choice hotels (many, especially outside the US) are more than 8000 points/night.
What most of the points mongers here do is switch hotels so as to maximize the number of stays in order to pile up the points.
And, be aware of the difference between a 'stay' and a 'night'. If you check in Monday and check out Tuesday, you get credit for one night and one stay.
If you check in Monday and check out Friday, you get credit for four nights and one stay.
If you check in Jan 1 and check out Dec 31, you get credit for 365 nights but only one stay. That's why we do the 'hotel-hopping' dance to maximize our stays.
If you have no elite status with Choice, you have to book your reward night no earlier than (I think) 30 days before the proposed stay. This is considered to be a serious drawback of their rewards program. On the other hand, if you reach Diamond elite status, your booking window is 100 days.
familyoutdoors
May 9, 11, 7:31 pm
Just to be clear...
What you get after staying two nights is a boost up on the total points you earn for the two stays to a total of 8000 points (plus any elite bonuses you are entitled to). These points generally post to your account within a couple of days after the last stay.
There is no "free night voucher' or anything like that. What you get is enough points for a free reward night at some of the Choice hotels (many, especially outside the US) are more than 8000 points/night.
What most of the points mongers here do is switch hotels so as to maximize the number of stays in order to pile up the points.
And, be aware of the difference between a 'stay' and a 'night'. If you check in Monday and check out Tuesday, you get credit for one night and one stay.
If you check in Monday and check out Friday, you get credit for four nights and one stay.
If you check in Jan 1 and check out Dec 31, you get credit for 365 nights but only one stay. That's why we do the 'hotel-hopping' dance to maximize our stays.
If you have no elite status with Choice, you have to book your reward night no earlier than (I think) 30 days before the proposed stay. This is considered to be a serious drawback of their rewards program. On the other hand, if you reach Diamond elite status, your booking window is 100 days.
BigLar,
I don't even think I am signed up yet for choice. I could easily hotel hop as you said. How many points do you get for staying a night or signing up for the choice card?
ps I like your quote. Wizard of Oz always one of my favorites.
"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas any more!."
sdsearch
May 9, 11, 8:18 pm
BigLar,
I don't even think I am signed up yet for choice. I could easily hotel hop as you said. How many points do you get for staying a night or signing up for the choice card?
That's why people are excited about this promo. The points you get normally (no promo) for staying a night at a cheap Choice property are rather few (10 points per dollar spent on room rate, but room rates at Choice are often quite low, and thus 10 times that is often not that much). The 8000 total points you get from 2 one-night stays in this promo is thus better than a 3x promo or even probably a 4x promo would be (everything else equal).
The Choice card earns an additional 5 points per dollar spent (on anything at Choice hotels, I think). Don't be confused by language which claim you earn15 points per dollar spent; they are adding the 10 points and 5 points together! But the card itself only earns the 5 points. (And the card earns 5 points even on stays where you earn miles instead of points. So that's another reason I hate the confusing 15 points language!) The signup varies, but is typically 16k or sometimes 24k points IIRC.
stallion114
May 10, 11, 6:06 am
For those without status, try a status match to get matched equal with another program up to plat.
I tried to match to Diamond and was denied. I submitted both Marriott Plat and Hyatt Diamond.
I dont think I have seen many successful results with the Diamond match but plenty of people have gotten the plat match even from PC.
If you go for a match do not register for the promo until your account says platinum.
I remember on a previous promo someone hit diamond during the promo and Choice would not give them the added benefits of being a Diamond as far as that promo went. ( they did still get there elite bonus)
PM me if you need a referral to Choice also.
bestbet33
May 10, 11, 4:21 pm
So I was just at a Choice Hotel and was able to get some more info on the promo. Contrary to the OP, general members and gold members can earn up to four 'free nights' if they register - two if they don't. Plats/Diamonds can earn up to 10. This is according to the info sheet that the front desk agent had and let me see.
Firewind
May 10, 11, 5:43 pm
Thank you stallion114. You sure know how to light up a room. To stallion114 and ChoiceHotels:
^
toomanybooks
May 10, 11, 8:09 pm
The Choice card earns an additional 5 points per dollar spent (on anything at Choice hotels, I think)...The signup varies, but is typically 16k or sometimes 24k points IIRC.
I just got a mailer (targeted, I think) offering 24K for the card and another 8K after first purchase. That is the most I have ever seen. And it's free.
I used to have the card and used it a lot, back in the days when you could stockpile Choice points and they were good for a huge timed dump to WN. It's how I got my first WN Companion Pass. But the Choice devaluations killed that for me.
8000 Choice points are worth $40 in WN 2.0 points (if cashed for WGA fares).
For those new to Choice, the program has a history of hosing its participants with little/no notice. Less than 4 years ago, it was 2500 Choice>2 WN credits (somewhat similar to 2400 points now). So you can see the devaluation.
BigLar
May 10, 11, 9:05 pm
For those new to Choice, the program has a history of hosing its participants with little/no notice. You are unfortunately correct. They also value their reward rooms (points cost) in some arbitrary opaque fashion, and change the numbers almost at random.
Having said that, the program has provided tremendous opportunities to pile up points. I made just shy of a quarter-million points on their stay 3/get 16K promo a couple of years ago. I turned that into a family vacation to Ireland involving 4 rooms over 5 or 6 nights at a very nice Clarion in downtown Dublin, plus a couple of nights at two of the Preferred properties. To do a similar thing with either of my other hotel chains (Hilton and Marriott) would have required nearly a million points.
So for those of us who gather points in order to use them for award rooms (for me, that means Europe), the Choice program is very attractive. With the recent (to me, anyhow) reduction of their Italian properties to the 8000 point level as an example, I could easily spend a couple of weeks in Europe with "free" hotel stays and very little cost.
There are things about the program I don't like (the iron-clad expiration for example) but for someone who a) pays their own way at hotels, and b) likes to take his family to Europe, Choice is a serious contender,
Drummer
May 11, 11, 8:44 am
Ever since this thread started I've been trying to figure out how to register. I'm unable to find anything on the Choice web site. Can someone post a link?
Thanks.
stallion114
May 11, 11, 8:48 am
Ever since this thread started I've been trying to figure out how to register. I'm unable to find anything on the Choice web site. Can someone post a link?
Thanks.
I dont think the offer has hit the webpage.
Sometimes hotels have promo material up before choicehotels.com.
Wait another week or so and it should be up.
I will post the link when I find it if someone else doesnt do it before me.
tom_MN
May 12, 11, 7:05 am
For me, the major advantage of the Choice program is the availablitity of both hotels and free nights virtually anywhere. This works for my job, which takes me to rural places far from the nearest Marriott or Hilton, and my long distance driving vacations, which do the same.
Try to book any hotel chain but Choice in eastern Montana or western Nebraska-- you're probably out of luck. I was also surprised to find that neither Marriott nor Holiday Inn had a property in Sedona, but Choice does.
It does seem that the average award these days is more 12,000 - 16,000 pts per night.
lwildernorva
May 12, 11, 9:42 am
I've decided to follow a two-tier strategy for hotel loyalty programs, and Choice fits in with my plan. I have SPG, and to a much lesser extent, Marriott, for potentially higher-end stays and trips to bigger cities with Choice as my option for lower-end stays in this country (although some intriguing options overseas) and a possible option in bigger cities depending on location and reviews. Wyndham could have worked for me in place of Choice, but I've noticed that there seem to be more Choice properties at most of my destinations. I also like Choice's tendency to offer bonus points in bigger bunches (such as the coming 2 nights for 8000 points promo) although I recognize that Choice has occasionally devalued their points.
I8000 Choice points are worth $40 in WN 2.0 points (if cashed for WGA fares).
Which makes me wonder why this promo is even being talked about in a thread over in the Southwest forum.
Lemme see, $40 toward a free flight on Southwest, or one night (with breakfast) completely paid at any Choice hotel in Italy? Which do you think has more value??? :)
toomanybooks
May 13, 11, 2:23 pm
Which makes me wonder why this promo is even being talked about in a thread over in the Southwest forum.
Lemme see, $40 toward a free flight on Southwest, or one night (with breakfast) completely paid at any Choice hotel in Italy? Which do you think has more value??? :)
Depends if you are in the US or Italy, for one thing, since Choice points expire.
And some other things.
satori
May 13, 11, 8:45 pm
Double post and I can't find delete button?
satori
May 13, 11, 8:52 pm
Just in time for my 6,000 miles western states summer road trip. Now I can add Choice Hotels to my hotel choices:D.
Firewind
May 14, 11, 3:47 pm
I've decided to follow a two-tier strategy for hotel loyalty programs, and Choice fits in with my plan. I have SPG, and to a much lesser extent, Marriott, for potentially higher-end stays and trips to bigger cities with Choice as my option for lower-end stays in this country (although some intriguing options overseas) and a possible option in bigger cities depending on location and reviews. Wyndham could have worked for me in place of Choice, but I've noticed that there seem to be more Choice properties at most of my destinations. I also like Choice's tendency to offer bonus points in bigger bunches (such as the coming 2 nights for 8000 points promo) although I recognize that Choice has occasionally devalued their points.
+1
And I would add that they make an inexpensive "ricochet" while hotel-hopping with another chain when stays are what counts in the opposite chain's promotion. For example, when Hyatt was running its FFN concurrently with a Choice 8,000 promotion.
enginero
May 14, 11, 11:04 pm
+1
And I would add that they make an inexpensive "ricochet" while hotel-hopping with another chain when stays are what counts in the opposite chain's promotion. For example, when Hyatt was running its FFN concurrently with a Choice 8,000 promotion.
This is a strategy that I use all the time for business and personal travel. Choice properties can fill in the gaps very nicely. DW and I have done many multi-destination trips where the only rooms that we paid for were in the $50-$75 range at Choice properties, while using IHG and Hilton points for reward nights as "treats" to avoid $150+ rooms.
Jazzop
May 16, 11, 11:53 am
T&Cs from the enrollment page (I have bolded some parts that merit careful attention):
Reservations must be made at ChoiceHotels.com or 800.4CHOICE at qualifying rates and Choice Privileges member number must be provided upon check-in. After a second qualifying stay with arrival between 5/19/11 and 8/11/11, you will be awarded enough bonus points to redeem at the 8,000 point Choice Privileges reward night level. For Econo Lodge®, Rodeway Inn®, Suburban Extended Stay Hotel®, or MainStay Suites® hotels, a stay is defined as two (2) or more consecutive nights at one hotel regardless of check-ins or check-outs. For Comfort Inn®, Comfort Suites®, Quality®, Sleep Inn®, Clarion®, Cambria Suites® or Ascend Collection® hotels, a stay is defined as any number of consecutive nights at one hotel regardless of check-ins or check-outs at any property included in the Choice Privileges program. Members that register for this promotion may earn up to four (4) free nights, Platinum and Diamond members that register for this promotion may earn up to ten (10) free nights, and members that do not register for this promotion may earn up to two (2) free nights. Allow 72 hours from check-out for points to post to your account. A free night at most Choice Privileges locations requires more than 8,000 points. You must maintain an address in the U.S. (including U.S. territories) or Canada to be eligible for this promotion. For program details, eligible rates, eligible countries and point redemption rules, visit choiceprivileges.com.
jimtown
May 16, 11, 7:59 pm
"For Econo Lodge®, Rodeway Inn®, Suburban Extended Stay Hotel®, or MainStay Suites® hotels, a stay is defined as two (2) or more consecutive nights at one hotel regardless of check-ins or check-outs. "
Humm, what if i only spend 1 of the 2 nights, does it give you credit if you stay at anouther Econo lodge them? or have a day between them?
Also these 8000 bonus points, those won't transfer to the Amtrak rewards will they?
Ispolkom
May 17, 11, 6:08 pm
[B]Also these 8000 bonus points, those won't transfer to the Amtrak rewards will they?
I would think that they would.
poptarts
May 25, 11, 8:39 am
[B]Also these 8000 bonus points, those won't transfer to the Amtrak rewards will they?
Per Amtrak website: transfer 32,000 Choice Privileges points into 5,000 Amtrak Guest Rewards points.
adkrick
Jun 1, 11, 3:04 pm
So if I understand from reading upthread, these points post just like regular stay points and not as some sort of bonus, correct (1000 + 7000)?
The crux of my question is this: I am hoping to do two quick stays later this month to generate the 8000 points for one free night in the middle of nowhere later this summer where Choice is the only option. However, USAirways just started a promo for 3K miles when you do a fly/stay/rental car combo. In order to get 3K miles I am pretty sure you have to have US-DM as the earning preference on the hotel. So the 1000 + 7000 points will go direct to USAirways and thus be unusable for my free night, correct? (I was originally thinking that they might be bonus miles that wouldn't be subject to direct deposit)
Looking to double dip, like any good FTer! :p
BigLar
Jun 1, 11, 4:18 pm
So if I understand from reading upthread, these points post just like regular stay points and not as some sort of bonus, correct (1000 + 7000)?
The crux of my question is this: I am hoping to do two quick stays later this month to generate the 8000 points for one free night in the middle of nowhere later this summer where Choice is the only option. However, USAirways just started a promo for 3K miles when you do a fly/stay/rental car combo. In order to get 3K miles I am pretty sure you have to have US-DM as the earning preference on the hotel. So the 1000 + 7000 points will go direct to USAirways and thus be unusable for my free night, correct? (I was originally thinking that they might be bonus miles that wouldn't be subject to direct deposit)
Looking to double dip, like any good FTer! :pTo the best of my knowledge, that is correct. You can get either points or miles, but not both (this ain't Hilton :))
What will go the US is the 3K miles. Be sure that they are listed as your preferred airline before you check in, and it wouldn't hurt to make sure of that while you're at the desk. They have been known to screw these things up.
Of course, if you have the Choice co-branded cc, you'll still get your points from that. But it seems you're a once-in-a-while Choice customer, so you probably don't have one.
sdsearch
Jun 3, 11, 2:33 pm
I am hoping to do two quick stays later this month to generate the 8000 points for one free night in the middle of nowhere later this summer where Choice is the only option. However, USAirways just started a promo for 3K miles when you do a fly/stay/rental car combo.
I suggest you do some math. Is 3K miles worth half the value of that hotel stay in the middle of nowhere? (Only you know how much that hotel will cost you if you have to pay with money instead of with 8000 points.)
And this being US, it's not like those 3K get you any closer to status, right? It's just ordinary RDM, I presume.
It's one thing to participate in a 3K promo that involves a stay if you don't have much of anythihg else to earn, but another to do it when you're losing out on big hotel points that are actually valued more than 3K miles. (But I don't know how you use US miles, and I don't know much the Choice hotel you were planning to use those 8000 points at costs in money, so I can't evaluate which is higher value in this case, only you can.)
sdsearch
Jun 3, 11, 2:42 pm
To the best of my knowledge, that is correct. You can get either points or miles, but not both (this ain't Hilton :))
Or WyndhamRewards. Who have just started a summer promo, where you get 1000 bonus points (though only at a fraction of their hotels), even if you earn toward an airline for the "base" earnings on your stay. In that case, if your preference is set to Southwest, you can earn 600 Southwest RR 2.0 points plus 1000 bonus WynhdamRewards points.
Ie, Hiltion HHonors isn't the only one to combine points and miles, it's just the only one to do that on every stay, and the only allowed to called it that.
But Choice is not like WyndhamRewards either. It doesn't give points bonuses at all if your preference is set to an airline, and it doesn't give airline bonuses at all if your preference iset to Choice points.
However, neither is Choice like Best Western: At Choice, you don't have to register for any airline promos (that I can recall), and you can mix and match different stays, so for example if you're doing 3 Choice stays this summer, you can do stay 2 get 8000 points on two of them and then switch to airline preference and earn toward an airiline on the 3rd stay. (And you can do that in any order. If you're booking on the Choice website, the earning preference you have set at the time you make the reservation is the one that goes into the reservation. Only at the hotel check-in can you override that, and some people have had trouble sometimes with such overrides.)
(At Best Western, once you register for an ailrine promo, it locks you out of the points or voucher promo for the same period, and vice versa. Sometimes people may be able to get that changed by calling customer service, but it's not guaranteed, and definitely on the website you can't change back and forth between points vs miles promos.)
bestbet33
Jun 12, 11, 10:41 am
If you go for a match do not register for the promo until your account says platinum.
I remember on a previous promo someone hit diamond during the promo and Choice would not give them the added benefits of being a Diamond as far as that promo went. ( they did still get there elite bonus).
I think I just made this mistake. I've had five stays since the promo started and have many more before it ends. However, I started and registered for the promo as a gold member and now I just got plat. We'll see what happens.
MVF Trekker
Jun 18, 11, 9:51 pm
If you check in at 2 different properties on the same day, will it count as 2 stays?
What if you don't show up or check in after you make the reservation but have already been charged? Will it count as a stay?
sdsearch
Jun 19, 11, 4:14 pm
If you check in at 2 different properties on the same day, will it count as 2 stays?
What if you don't show up or check in after you make the reservation but have already been charged? Will it count as a stay?
Those questions aren't specific to this promotion.
On the second question no, at no hotel program that I'm aware of (just like at no airline either). Otherwise you'd be hearing all the time of people just booking cheap rooms someplace where they don't live and not showing up and getting tons of points for it.
I don't offhand know whether you get points for 2 different properties on the same day.
royalbrett
Jul 7, 11, 6:46 am
I fulfilled the requirement, and my online statement only shows that I received 5,000 bonus points.
I used their website on Monday to send them my request for an explanation as to why I did not receive the full 8,000 points. Still no reply yet.
I'll update as needed.
sdsearch
Jul 7, 11, 7:51 pm
I fulfilled the requirement, and my online statement only shows that I received 5,000 bonus points.
I used their website on Monday to send them my request for an explanation as to why I did not receive the full 8,000 points. Still no reply yet.
I'll update as needed.
Are you saying the sum of the points you got for the two stays was 5,000?
You[re not supposed to get 8000 bonus points. You're only supposed to get enough bonus points so that both stays' points added together add up to at least 8000.
What brands did you stay at? Are you aware that at those brands that normally earn 5 (instead of 10) points per $, you only qualify for stay 2 with 2-night (or longer) stays?
sdsearch
Jul 7, 11, 7:56 pm
OT Update:
at no hotel program that I'm aware of (just like at no airline either). Otherwise you'd be hearing all the time of people just booking cheap rooms someplace where they don't live and not showing up and getting tons of points for it.
Well, per a discussion (about a promo only for Europeans) in the WyndhamRewards forum right now, it appears that in that program you can and regularly do get points for no-show stays. I'm not sure if there's any trick to it or not, and I'm not sure if it works 100% or not, but it's enough that people are suggesting it as a way for Europeans to get points from a promo by booking hotels in the US yet while staying in Europe!
At any rate, that's the first program I've ever heard of where you can do that...
royalbrett
Jul 8, 11, 7:12 am
Are you saying the sum of the points you got for the two stays was 5,000?
You[re not supposed to get 8000 bonus points. You're only supposed to get enough bonus points so that both stays' points added together add up to at least 8000.
What brands did you stay at? Are you aware that at those brands that normally earn 5 (instead of 10) points per $, you only qualify for stay 2 with 2-night (or longer) stays?
I stayed 2 nights, check-in 5/31, at a Sleep Inn and received the normal 1590 points for doing so.
I again stayed 2 nights, check-in 6/28, at the same Sleep Inn. I received 6590 points, which the website says includes the bonus points.
I guess that I misunderstood the program.
Zurich Flyer
Jul 12, 11, 7:29 am
Just saw the promo card at the phl quality inn.
Starts may 19-Aug.
Same as the gas card with the cheap brands requiring 2 nights.
Capped at 2 free nights for general members and Gold, 4 nights for plat, and 10 nights for diamonds.
Also I believe it said plat and diamonds can book through any channel whereas others need to use choice.com or by phone to choice reservations.
Will be paid out in 8000 points just like past promos.
is there a cheap hotel in europe? did not find any
sdsearch
Jul 12, 11, 5:56 pm
is there a cheap hotel in europe? did not find any
I'm confused; are you ZurichFlyer because you're based in Zurich, or only because you fly to Zurich all the time?
From the T&Cs of this promotion:
"You must maintain an address in the U.S. (including U.S. territories) or Canada to be eligible for this promotion."
So if your address (with Choice) is in Zurich, it matters not where there may be a cheap hotel in Europe, because you're ineligible.
Meanwhile, to understand the difficulty of finding a cheap Choice hotel in Europe, consider the fact that there are fairly few cheap Choice hotels in the US too.
What there are lots of, in the US, is cheap Choice motels. But Choice in Europe doesn't tend to have motels (they leave that to Ibis or whoever), only hotels (from what I have seen so far).
Anyhow, for cheaper Choice hotels in Europe, how about 50 Euros a night for tomorrow night (July 13) at Comfort Inn Braga (Portugal) for Best Available Rate? (I dunno if any discount rates would lower that further or not, tried Senior Rate at random and it said not available.) That's about equivalent to US$70ish, which is not bad at all in many US locations, even though it's still of course not anywhere near the cheapest in the US.
Firewind
Aug 10, 11, 2:23 am
Reminder, the last day for Arrival is 8/11. They kindly made this explicit from the get-go.