Travel with Children - lax - icn with 28 month old twins. help please!!!

what a great site. people seem so helpful here. may i please reach out for advise?

my husband and i are traveling to seoul with our 28 month old twins in june and i have so many decisions that i have to make. i have been going back and forth on:

1. which flight to take. there's a noon flight or a midnight flight. is it better to take cranky tired toddlers to the airport and get them on the plane to sleep for about 6 hours and then anticpate them being awake for another 6 hours until we get to our destination, or...
take the noon flight, attempt to entertain for 7 hours (which will be near impossible with my crazy girls) and then have them sleep for 5 hours until we reach our desitnation where they will no doubt be cranky from lack of sleep.
it seems to be a no win situation for us here.

2. carseat or no carseat....i've read a lot on this but my girls don't particularily enjoy their carseat. i initially thought they would just lie down and sleep on our laps but who am i kidding...



this trip is giving me anxiety....

thanks in advance for your help. i love hearing about other's experiences traveling.

Welcome to FT!

Unfortunately, only you can answer these questions, as you know your kids. Personally, I would book the over-night flight, as their current timezone (presuming you're starting in LAX) acclimation would make it quite likely they'll sleep for a good while at the beginning, and, who knows---you might get lucky and they'll be out for most of the flight. IME, it's harder to get DS to sleep than to keep him asleep, so I try and optimize the chances he'll drift off.

As to the carseats, I would only not use them if you know that your kids will not sleep in them. IME, most kids sleep just fine---or much better---in their carseats, though, and they are safer.

It's not an easy age, though, to be sure. Good luck to you!

I would choose the midnight flight, and the carseats. I would also start really gushing about how great the carseats are... what big girls they are to sit in them so nicely, how proud you are, etc. Really start associating positive feelings with the carseats now.

Cali

If they don't enjoy carseat, a 12 hr flight is not the best place to try to change their minds. You probably won't need carseat in ICN anyways so why deal with this pain.
I agree with midnight flight - the cabin will be dark vs the other one where it's gonna daylight all the way. Some benadryl can probably assist in prolonging sleep (after of course testing a response at home first)

Fly direct on Asiana or Korean - I'd avoid the US carriers or a connection.

Once you have selected your flight (I agree a late flight is much better) search and/or ask your specific question on the relevant airline's thread.

I'd also be hesitant to take a carseat if they are not used to it - as there won't be a place to stow it if it doesn't work out.

If they don't enjoy carseat, a 12 hr flight is not the best place to try to change their minds.

i agree with that; i took several long haul with young kids,night flights are much better; keep them awake the entire day before the flight and they wil sleep longer.

Gosh maybe I'll try to get my friend to post here for you. She just flew Amsterdam to Vancouver (8 hours) with 4 year old twins and a sick 2 year old....on her own !!!

I would agree that you need to know your kids to decide which time will be best. I once took a midnight flight with my 2 year old and rather than falling immediately to sleep she became completely hyper (past the point of sleeping I guess). Still of the 2, the midnight flight is probably the best option. Perhaps you could get the twins on a later schedule before the flight so staying up until boarding time will not be as much of a shock? While I'm not a huge fan of medicating kids except when really necessary some people I know swear by Kids Gravol for flights. While I have never used it, I must admit I put some in my carry on when I traveled to Australia (15 hours) with two little ones this past month.....just in case. If you choose to go this route maybe talk to your doctor first, or test it out to see how your kids react.

As much as the girls may not like their car seats, it does create an expectation of staying in one spot as in the car. Sometimes a regular seat with people in front and behind makes it irresistible for kids to want to stand up a look around. I would take the seats.

Will the girls watch shows? I always travel with iPod Touches for my kids so they can watch movies. I never trust that the entertainment systems will work (and good thing since on the trip to Australia they stopped working). You can buy kids sized head phones since the ear buds they give you on the plane are not suitable for kids.

Good luck !
Tara
www.thetraveltot.com

I'd also be hesitant to take a carseat if they are not used to it - as there won't be a place to stow it if it doesn't work out.

I have to ask... how could they not be used to their carseats? There is no other option in the car. It's not like they're going cold-turkey into a carseat on the plane and they're not used to riding in one every single time they get into a car.

The first time I took my preschooler on the train without a carseat, she informed me that she was not safe if she was not in her carseat (hey, whaddya know, she WAS listening to me all those times I said it).

Cali

I agree about the night flight BUT I would not make it a deal-breaker. Go for the flight with the best fares or whatever other considerations you have (like arrival/departure times, or air miles).

As a Flight Attendant for 13 years, working long-haul international, much of them overnights, honestly, children sleep. Not the whole way or all the time but when everyone else drops off, they do likewise. The only time I didn't see little ones sleep was when they were really sick or had bad teething pain, etc.

Children do NOT have to sit in their car seats the entire flight. Mine hardly did but was it much easier to have somewhere safe to place them when they fell asleep. They're much safer for take-off and landing in their seats. I found that I slept better, knowing my children were safely strapped in and couldn't slide/fall off or wander away...

Count on the flight being full. Trans-pacifics rarely have empty seats. Wouldn't it be great to stretch them out? Don't count on it!

The problem with their sleeping with their heads on your laps is that you are trapped. You will wake them if you need to use the restroom, etc. Also, you might not be able to get as comfortable with them there.

The real question to ask is, do you need your car seats in Korea? If so, than bring them and use them on board. NEVER check a car seat as luggage. They get lost and broken by the airline all the time and the airlines will NOT compensate you. The safest way to fly for both the children and the car seats is on board the plane with you!

If you fly with the car seats, it's smarter to fly a U.S. company. The FAA guarantees the rights of parents to use car seats on board whereas the rules on foreign companies can be dodgy. You may want to check on those rules before booking to make sure your car seats will be accepted.

If you don't need the car seats in Korea, than this is not an issue obviously.

Be sure to bring some new toys they've never seen. Give them out as you're getting ready to take off, when everyone needs to be seated. Be ready to do a lot of "aisle laps" when they're awake.

Please schedule a "well-baby" visit soon before leaving. Have the doctor check their ears to make sure they're clear. No, you do NOT have to force them to drink anything on take-off and landing (common myth). Healthy ears can handle pressurization changes. Also, you can discuss medications, if you're thinking about using them. These meds aren't completely harmless. Twice I had totally wired children on my flights thanks to medications their parents gave them. Yes, they can have the opposite effect. I'm allergic to antihistamines, which is not uncommon. You need to try anything out at home first (if you haven't already when they were sick).

Here are my non-commercial flying tips. There is a whole section on getting car seats through airports;
http://flyingwithchildren.blogspot.com

Everyone get a good nights' sleep beforehand. Do not keep them up or other such nonsense, you need rested, cooperative toddlers to get through check-in, security, boarding and often over-tired toddlers get overstimulated and can't sleep once on board.

This is not going to be the easiest flight you've ever done. Be grateful if it's non-stop and thankfully, your husband is with you (a luxury I rarely had). You have two at a difficult age for air travel but you'll be able to handle it!

Another vote for the night flight, but be realistic -- there will be a long period of excitement before they actually crash. Efforts to make them tired the day before will probably just backfire. I'd have them fairly well-rested, and after the initial fun of checking out the surroundings, and cabin lights dim, bring out their nighttime teddy bear or blankets and try to get them into their bedtime ritual. Good luck with them, and stay calm -- they can sense it!

I have twins, and have traveled with them by air and car for quite some time back and forth. As soon as they were old enough, we switched to the only FAA approved restraint device alternative to car seats:

http://www.kidsflysafe.com/ The CARES harness is great! We had one for each child and frequently loaned them out to friends with twins, or singletons. Bring the printout in the odd case that the FA has not seen a CARES, they are quite common now. Then we just checked the car seats at check in, and it was MUCH easier, ours are the type that fold into a storage bag (http://www.amazon.com/Safety-1st-Hybrid-Convertible-Booster/dp/B002UP391K) but we've checked plain old boosters too, they've never been damaged, maybe we have just been lucky??

I vote for the night flight, it may take them more time to fall asleep, but they should rest. Take some familiar night time items to help them transition. Personally, I had one whose ears did have trouble with the pressure and it DID help her to suck on something during ascent or descent briefly. One had no trouble at all, oddly, the one who was prone to ear infections had no problem with the pressure.

We brought lots of snacks and little toys that the kids wouldn't normally eat or play with, not sure you would need this on an overnight.

I second the well child visit to be sure the ears are clear, etc. Also, I have had a pediatrician recommend a mild dose of antihistamine for motion sickness and to clear things up. Ask your pediatrician what they recommend, we don't generally do that, depends on if they have had allergies recently, etc.

Also, you can have your child visit the airport, or watch videos on flying, I'm sure there are tons, to familiarize them with what to expect. Many airports have family lines for security, find out if yours does. Take advantage of preboard, boarding when the plane is empty and people are not shoving and pushing you and you have time to acclimate your children has been helpful to us.

Best wishes for a safe and relatively enjoyable trip! Kudos to you for doing such extensive preparation.^

I have twins, and have traveled with them by air and car for quite some time back and forth. As soon as they were old enough, we switched to the only FAA approved restraint device alternative to car seats:

http://www.kidsflysafe.com/ The CARES harness is great! ..

At what age (or perhaps more relevant weight/height) did you start using CARES?

At what age (or perhaps more relevant weight/height) did you start using CARES?

My kids are 6 now, and we started using them when they were a little over 2 (2006), by 5+ we were done. They were tall but skinny, and I just don't feel they would've been ready at 18 months. I think the CARES website advertises 18 mos+ but honestly, I think mine would've been all slumped over, under, and too small at that age. Perhaps if your kids were heavier?

I wish I could tell you at what height/weight, but memory fails me. I have a son who tips the scales at the 25% for weight and 95% for height and a daughter who's about 40% and 60% so they weren't real meaty.

Added: We passed our CARES on to another twin family when we were done, and they now enjoy them on trips!

The CARES harness does have a short "life span", although they were supposed to be coming out with either approval for a higher weight or a redesigned one.

The problem is that the promote checking car seats as luggage, which is a really bad idea. Even if you think your seat is "fine" after checking it, the truth is that it could have been hurled around or crushed under other bags. You never know. The seat may not protect the child in an accident. Some car seat techs recommend throwing away any car seat that has been checked as luggage.

If the children have their own seats on the airplane AND the car seat is needed at the destination, then it's best taken on board the plane. A CARES harness is good in cases where a car seat is NOT necessary at the destination.

If two parents are traveling, this shouldn't be too difficult to bring two car seats. While having the car seat is the safest way to fly, the real concern is car travel. So for me, the deciding factor would be whether the car seats are needed in Korea.

Please note that CARES harnesses can also be rented on Craigslist or on Ebay. If you buy one second-hand, ask how it's been washed (never submerged in water or cleaned with harsh chemicals). It's easy enough to just wipe them down.

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The problem is that the promote checking car seats as luggage, which is a really bad idea. Even if you think your seat is "fine" after checking it, the truth is that it could have been hurled around or crushed under other bags. You never know. The seat may not protect the child in an accident. Some car seat techs recommend throwing away any car seat that has been checked as luggage.


Not this again...
You are multiplying a rather low probability of seat being damaged by an even lower probability of having a car crash and then by a small probability of that the baggage damage would make a difference in a crash. The resulting chance is so miniscule that you are probably more likely to be struck by lightning on a bright sunny day.

Do you have any confirmed reports (not speculation or urban legends) that indicate that car seat damage caused by baggage handling contributed to injury or death of a child in a car crash?
(then I'll divide the number of those cases by a total number of carseats checked as baggage to get a sense of the risk you repeatedly warn us about)



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If two parents are traveling, this shouldn't be too difficult to bring two car seats. While having the car seat is the safest way to fly, the real concern is car travel. So for me, the deciding factor would be whether the car seats are needed in Korea.
..

It is not just difficult, it near impossible. Having a kid and a carseat and some sort of carry on (per parent) is unmanageable unless you start growing extra hands.

Avoid the bulk head since the armrests don't move.

Do you have any confirmed reports (not speculation or urban legends) that indicate that car seat damage caused by baggage handling contributed to injury or death of a child in a car crash?

Do you have proof that it's SAFE to check a car seat with so many which get broken and lost by the airlines?? There is plenty of proof that broken car seats don't work as well in a crash. Also, if the child is leaving without a car seat, that is not safe.

Go on to YouTube and you can see how luggage is routinely treated, including car seats. Believe me, busted and lost bags are not as unlikely as getting "struck by lightening on a sunny day". It happens all the time! I myself have had strollers and bags broken and lost by the airlines. It's very routine. If you've been lucky, congratulations but for those of us who fly a lot, very few of us haven't have this happen to us.

This is standard car safety information, part of car seat technician training.
No debate on that please! It's valid to warn parents about the pitfalls of checking car seats as luggage. Parents who paid decent money to keep their children safe deserve to know this fact. No need to discuss this more!

It is not just difficult, it near impossible. Having a kid and a carseat and some sort of carry on (per parent) is unmanageable unless you start growing extra hands.

It's not impossible. I've flown alone with three children on transatlantics with connections. Granted I only have one car seat (because others were kept at my parents) but two is still do-able, especially with two parents. The key is being organized.

Don't carry it all. Put the car seats in the stroller or on a luggage cart. A good quality baby carrier (they MUST go to age 2 at least) means your hands are free. Don't overpack your carry-on's. Use backpacks instead of rolly bags.

Plenty of parents manage this. Flying with babies and toddlers is never easy but you do what you need to do!

... Parents who paid decent money to keep their children safe deserve to know this fact. ...

Fact would be a keyword. So far I don't see any that would support the concerns you outline and I see no reason to become paranoid over an improbable scenario.

Another vote for the night flight.

The white noise of the plane will help them sleep once you're airborne.

I did YVR-HKG with a 2 AM departure with a 6 year old.

A bit older than your kids but he stayed up as late as he could, then crashed once we were airborne and slept for about 7 hrs. . .