TalkBoard Topics - Do we really want non-English threads just for the sake of it?

Please take a look at what's happening over at the EK forum. Non-English threads are being started not by non-English speakers, but rather by English speakers who want non-English speakers to have a place to post. This is an "experiment" done by some Ambassador, with support of the moderator.

While in no violation of TOS, I presume, this just doesn't seem right. While English may not be the official FT language, it de facto is. Now, if someone who truly didn't now a word of english posted in their native tongue for help or assistance, I know the FT community would help them and reply in their native language. But to start threads solely for the purpose of speaking in another language seems exclusionary and contrary to the goals of FT.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-airlines-skywards/1198363-en-francais.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-airlines-skywards/1199021-hindi-english-hinglish-mein-thread.html

IMHO, no. Although this is an international board, the accepted norm has been english on this board for many years.

If it were in OMNI, it'd be one thing, but I think in the travel related fora, english should be the language used.

Some other posts (dating back a while):

The norm is that all signatures must be in english as well -

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11281810-post1.html (bullet point #4)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard/279214-offical-discussion-language-forum-2.html (see post 19 - to follow up with that, if all the moderators of a forum can't speak/read the language, then they can't effectively do their jobs - and if the FlyerTalk host can't speak/read the language, then they can't effectively do their job leading the moderator corpos).

Also, the norm is that all signatures must be in english as well -

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11281810-post1.html (bullet point #4)

FYI, it appears non-TB FTers can't see those posts.

I see no problem in this happening, so long as it is not violating any FT TOS (which it isn't). English is not the official language of FT; and if Members want to communicate in a language they are comfortable communicating in, whats the problem?

FYI, it appears non-TB FTers can't see those posts.

I've edited my post - I didn't realize I had posted a link to a non-public forum. It came up in my search results.

That said, my thought, is that if all the moderators of a forum can't speak/read the language, then they can't effectively do their jobs - and if the FlyerTalk host can't speak/read the language, then they can't effectively do their job leading the moderator corps - - a reason in itself to limit non-english threads from the public fora.

Keep it English. English is the international language of communication, business and travel.

IMHO, no. Although this is an international board, the accepted norm has been english on this board for many years.

If it were in OMNI, it'd be one thing, but I think in the travel related fora, english should be the language used.

Some other posts (dating back a while):

The norm is that all signatures must be in english as well -

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11281810-post1.html (bullet point #4)
Actually, the rule that signatures had to be in english was rescinded following the experience of the moderators (of whom I was one) in trying to enforce that rule.

And the link still goes to a private forum ;)

I do think it seems a pretty unimportant thing. There have long been posts on the airline boards which are not based in english speaking countries, where news is posted in the language it is written in, and an english summary is provided for those of us who don't speak German/Dutch/French. So FT is not only about english.

I would say the desire to have only english only comes from the fear that you might miss something if posted in another language, or not able to be involved -which is how someone who may speak some english, but not enough to feel comfortable with posting questions or discussions may feel. Is it right that your desire to be able to read everything should restrict someone else's involvement on FT?

Keep it English. English is the international language of communication, business and travel.

But not the only language...

Is it right that your desire to be able to read everything should restrict someone else's involvement on FT?

Oxi, then einai oti fobame, alla ean tha eimaste mia koinonia, prepei oloi na boroume na epikoinonoume.

Please take a look at what's happening over at the EK forum. Non-English threads are being started not by non-English speakers, but rather by English speakers who want non-English speakers to have a place to post. This is an "experiment" done by some Ambassador, with support of the moderator.

While in no violation of TOS, I presume, this just doesn't seem right. While English may not be the official FT language, it de facto is. Now, if someone who truly didn't now a word of english posted in their native tongue for help or assistance, I know the FT community would help them and reply in their native language. But to start threads solely for the purpose of speaking in another language seems exclusionary and contrary to the goals of FT.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-airlines-skywards/1198363-en-francais.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-airlines-skywards/1199021-hindi-english-hinglish-mein-thread.html

Keep it English. English is the international language of communication, business and travel.

I question the intention behind such observations and find it interesting that there would be opposition to what is essentially a little bit of fun that harms nobody. While private clubs generally enact convenient rules and regulations to keep the natives out, so to speak, I am glad to see that FT does not have such rules, as yet.

Oxi, then einai oti fobame, alla ean tha eimaste mia koinonia, prepei oloi na boroume na emikoinonoume.

exactly! ;) (and I have no idea what that says).


Is it right that your desire to be able to read everything should restrict someone else's involvement on FT?

No one's restricting anyone's involvement in FlyerTalk. As most travel programs provide information in english (as well as their home-country specific language, i.e. Lufthansa in German & AF/KL in French & Dutch) and the language of Flyertalk is generally in english (our Guidelines & Rules are in english), there is an expectation, albeing unwritten, that the language used on this board, in general, is english.

I have no problems with other languages (I understand French & Hindi and some Spanish and some Italian) - but for the sake of the board's membership (the "greater good"), the core language of Flyertalk should be english.

I question the intention behind such observations and find it interesting that there would be opposition to what is essentially a little bit of fun that harms nobody. While private clubs generally enact convenient rules and regulations to keep the natives out, so to speak, I am glad to see that FT does not have such rules, as yet.

+1. Then we should also limit/prohibit any posts in German, including fare rules/DE only offers posted online in FT, sometimes even by the moderator.

These are quite common on the LH forum, which I don't mind at all.

And translations are not provided many times.

seems pretty clear to me >

to start threads solely for the purpose of speaking in another language

If it were in OMNI, it'd be one thing

Keep it English. English is the international language of communication, business and travel.

Well, you'd be surprised to know that it's very easy to travel on EK without speaking English, given the range of languages their staff speak.

And we are talking about the EK forum here.

Edit: Emirates flies around 184 widebody aircraft a week to the Indian subcontinent. I think it's kind of justified to have a thread in Hindi.

Well, you'd be surprised to know that it's very easy to travel on EK without speaking English, given the range of languages their staff speak.

And we are talking about the EK forum here.

Edit: Emirates flies around 184 widebody aircraft a week to the Indian subcontinent. I think it's kind of justified to have a thread in Hindi.

^^

ALso note that I started this thread (as an experiment) with one ground rule..All posts, in any South Asian language must be in the roman script..this is common in south Asia This enables the moderator to use google translate -- a point first made by the moderator!

The same is definitionally true of the thread en Francais.

English is the language of international air traffic control not of international air travel. Airlines are bound by national bilaterals and carry flags In South America safety announcements, for instance, are not made in English, quite often. On TAM and Air France, only Portuguese/French speakers respectively may occupy exit row seats. You would not get this rule on Emirates, a global airline in the true sense of the term

And remember this this is the Emirates board. .. Emirates FFs are proud of travelling on an airline that recruits globally flies globally and caters to global audiences thereby bringing the globe together. Its a big value added for me. On a typical Emirates flight cabin crew speak 6-8 languages. Flight deck personnel come form 50 plus nations So its natural that in the EK forum, of all, you will see these experiments to include, or to communicate in different ways! ANd a supportive moderator, to boot!

Opening the door even further to non-English communication on FT is not something which I would fancy.

All posts, in any South Asian language must be in the roman script..this is common in south Asia This enables the moderator to use google translate -- a point first made by the moderator!

I am certain that I can post in various South Asian languages in the Roman Alphabet script in such a way that the moderators cannot use online translation software to fully understand what could be posted. And most South Asian languages don't even have a translate feature provided by Google, regardless of the script used.

Moderation of threads and the thread's openness to people of other (linguistic) backgrounds/experiences becomes more of a challenge with a change in official policy or practice on FT with regard to the restriction on use of languages other than English on the threads themselves.

Moderation of threads and the thread's openness to people of other (linguistic) backgrounds/experiences becomes more of a challenge with a change in official policy or practice on FT with regard to the restriction on use of languages other than English on the threads themselves.

I do not understand your observation above but do genuinely think you are making a point I need to understand.
What is this change in official policy Or practice? Our moderator clearly said there was no problem on this I have heard nothing that indicates otherwise?

Pardon my lack of acuity; Please do explain/elaborate


The thread I started will continue until I hear from the EK thread moderator that Ft admin has decided that this is an English only forum.

Can we ban American then?

Can we ban American then?

:D :D

Cheers.

In answer to the thread title, I would say absolutely not. But allow me to qualify that. I similarly do not want threads which are solely there to count down from a pre-designated number. I find these threads not to my liking.

That said I do find threads that use humor or non-travel points to resolve travel issues or angst issues arising from travel very appropriate. OMNI is really there for anything not related to travel anyway. It started that way once upon a time as a thread prefix (i.e. “OMNI: When is the latest Star Wars movie to be released?”) So in the spirit of FT and its roots I would say threads that exist for the sole purpose of our amusement and not to enhance the travel experience can and should exist in OMNI. It is in many ways the perfect pressure valve for a long crazy day at work, school, etc.

As to the unasked question of whether languages other than English should be used on FT, I think that is pretty clearly a yes. We have country specific for which require answers to provided in another language because of lack of English equivalents or for accuracy.

To say that such should not be allowed because a moderator is unable to read it is to say the tail certainly should be wagging the dog. Get moderators who can speak language for destination specific fora and perhaps as them to assist in airline or hotel specific fora when a language other than English is used.

As an American I was entirely gratified to learn 26 years ago, at the ripe young age of 20 when I left the US (and still have not returned permanently) that not everyone speaks American English, and that a combination of languages together with a healthy respect for each others’ roots is the only way in which communication can take steps forward.

This is one of the reasons why so many of the countries, whose first language is not English, percieve us as arrogant. It is not against the rules it is an international forum...why not.

Can we ban American then?

No. There is no restrictions in American forums. It is free country that you can post here.

This is one of the reasons why so many of the countries, whose first language is not English, percieve us as arrogant. It is not against the rules it is an international forum...why not.

Many an international forum have settled for English and/or a limited set of languages being the forum norm -- not so much a result of arrogance as a practical approach that is more inclusive in practice than would be the case from linguistic Balkanization of a forum.

I do not understand your observation above but do genuinely think you are making a point I need to understand.
What is this change in official policy Or practice? Our moderator clearly said there was no problem on this I have heard nothing that indicates otherwise?

Pardon my lack of acuity; Please do explain/elaborate


The thread I started will continue until I hear from the EK thread moderator that Ft admin has decided that this is an English only forum.

I hope the following helps explain my position:

1. If a small proportion of members communicate on FT in a language not generally accessible to the overwhelming majority of members, the majority of members unfamiliar with the "foreign" language will not be able to benefit from the communications in the "foreign" language.

2. Communication in language(s) not (as well) understood by (some or any) moderators become harder (to impossible) for the moderators to police for FT terms of services violation.

linguistic Balkanization of a forum.IMO, that is the real issue. I don't have much problem with 'lounge threads' in other languages, especially in regional fora. However, information in another language than the language of communication of FT means that it will be inacessible to most members.
On the moderation issue, while it is less of a pressing concern as far as I am concerned, I must say that the idea that google translate will enable a mod to effectively moderate a thread in a language unknown to the mod strikes me as naive.
It is true that other languages are occasionally used to report external information in a language other than English. However, it is an altogether different kettle of fish. Indeed, posters who report such information usually feel compelled (rightly in my view) to provide at least a summary translation. You would not have that with language threads.

This is one of the reasons why so many of the countries, whose first language is not English, percieve us as arrogant. It is not against the rules it is an international forum...why not.
(Underline mine)

Who's "us"? Did you mean "Americans?"

Can you also clarify what's the "one of the reasons" using English on FT be conceived and/or perceived as "arrogant"? :confused:

I am not American and English is not my mother tongue. The thought has never come to my mind that FT as an (internationally) internet bulletin board in English has anything to do with arrogance. Does it make me arrogant since I use English comfortably on FT and never consider it an issue or problem?

What do you expect to be the standard language when an internet bulletin board is founded by an American in the United States? Should it be Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language_in_the_United_States)? ;)

I hope the following helps explain my position:

1. If a small proportion of members communicate on FT in a language not generally accessible to the overwhelming majority of members, the majority of members unfamiliar with the "foreign" language will not be able to benefit from the communications in the "foreign" language.

2. Communication in language(s) not (as well) understood by (some or any) moderators become harder (to impossible) for the moderators to police for FT terms of services violation.
I don't have much problem with 'lounge threads' in other languages, especially in regional fora. However, information in another language than the language of communication of FT means that it will be inacessible to most members.

Agree with both GUWonder and NickB.

I even had to ask fellow FTers to give me the English translation when they were joking (with me) in Spanish and Italian. I don't speak and couldn't/can't understand either language. Besides, I don't trust Google translator since I've seen how poorly it performs on English-to-Traditional-Chinese translation (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15441980-post220.html). :p

Just to report that teh EK Hindi-English (yes multio language) thread is chugging along quite nciely -- and with limited traffic -- with no problems reported by the moderator or anyone else. I have volunteered to translate anything posted there into English if anyone asks for such and this is working just fine.

Just to report that teh EK Hindi-English (yes multio language) thread is chugging along quite nciely -- and with limited traffic -- with no problems reported by the moderator or anyone else. I have volunteered to translate anything posted there into English if anyone asks for such and this is working just fine.

Seems like you are making more work for yourself, when the thread could have just been posted in English...

Seems like you are making more work for yourself, when the thread could have just been posted in English...

we all do what we like to do and people are enjoying the thread...

[QUOTE=rathin100;16200029I have volunteered to translate anything posted there into English if anyone asks for such and this is working just fine.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your kind offer. Can you please translate every post, including futures ones, for me? Much appreciated.

Thank you for your kind offer. Can you please translate every post, including futures ones, for me? Much appreciated.

No problem Ill translate individual posts, on request, in the thread.

No problem Ill translate individual posts, on request, in the thread.

Unless I am mistaken, the request was to translate every post in that thread.

Thank you for your kind offer. Can you please translate every post, including futures ones, for me? Much appreciated.

+1

I would like to see this happen to all of the posts in those threads.

Unless I am mistaken, the request was to translate every post in that thread.

I got the same impression.

+1

I would like to see this happen to all of the posts in those threads.



I got the same impression.

I got the same impression No miscommunication here. You have my response.

I got the same impression No miscommunication here. You have my response.

And justforfun asked you to translate every post in that thread...

And justforfun asked you to translate every post in that thread...

Ill put my 10 year old son onto it.. ... he makes requests of a very similar nature so should be able to oblige better...

Ill put my 10 year old onto it.. I detect a pattern is his requests and this...

And I detect a pattern of trying to be inclusive, by not translating those posts.

And I detect a pattern of trying to be inclusive, but not translating those posts.

Suit yourself

Unless I am mistaken, the request was to translate every post in that thread.

and my impression of the response was that we don't always get what we want :D

(and BTW GUWonder, would you please clear out your PM box or check your email? Thanks)

No problem Ill translate individual posts, on request, in the thread.

I got the same impression No miscommunication here. You have my response.

Ill put my 10 year old son onto it.. ... he makes requests of a very similar nature so should be able to oblige better...

Suit yourself
I am so very confused. :confused:

Are you, or are you NOT, translating every post in the Hindi-English (Hinglish) mein thread that you OPed (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-airlines-skywards/1199021-hindi-english-hinglish-mein-thread.html)?

Since I don't read nor speak Hinglish; and English is not my native language, I want to make sure I understand you (or at least the posts in said thread). Unfortunately, I am not. Believe me, I tried. That thread completely loses me. I think I understand a fair amount of English. Even the English part I read so far (title included), I am not sure if I see typos or misunderstand Hinglish (for examples , is "mein" a Hinglish or typo of "main"; what's "talkpoint" in post#49 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16212604-post49.html)? Did you mean "TalkBoard Topics Forum" or some other reference?)

...The idea is to braoden the communication spectrum not narrow it..
(yes, I know for sure that is a typo ;))

How does your use of such thread "broaden the communication spectrum" when a regular FTer, like me, simply can't understand what's been talked about in thread?

I use Traditional Chinese characters, my native written language, in some of my posts too. I do want to share ideas/info with fellow FTers and wider audience, so when I include Traditional Chinese characters, I always try my best to either translate and/or provide pinyi/romanization. The messages I want my posts to convey is "please come and read me. Join me."

Somehow when I pay a visit to your Hinglish thread, I didn't and don't feel that way. I feel alienated. Your posts in this thread seems defensive and hostile too. Is that part of your goals too?

... and people are enjoying the thread...
Not me. Not that I don't want to enjoy, I can't. At least not in the way that thread is going/written.

So allow me to repeat my question again: Are you going to translate every post in your Hinglish thread or not? :confused:

Thank you for your kind offer. Can you please translate every post, including futures ones, for me? Much appreciated.

Unless I am mistaken, the request was to translate every post in that thread.

+1

I would like to see this happen to all of the posts in those threads.



I got the same impression.

I am so very confused. :confused:

Are you, or are you NOT, translating every post in the Hindi-English (Hinglish) mein thread that you OPed (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/emirates-airlines-skywards/1199021-hindi-english-hinglish-mein-thread.html)?

Since I don't read nor speak Hinglish; and English is not my native language, I want to make sure I understand you (or at least the posts in said thread). Unfortunately, I am not. Believe me, I tried. That thread completely loses me. I think I understand a fair amount of English. Even the English part I read so far (title included), I am not sure if I see typos or misunderstand Hinglish (for examples , is "mein" a Hinglish or typo of "main"; what's "talkpoint" in post#49 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16212604-post49.html)? Did you mean "TalkBoard Topics Forum" or some other reference?)


(yes, I know for sure that is a typo ;))

How does your use of such thread "broaden the communication spectrum" when a regular FTer, like me, simply can't understand what's been talked about in thread?

I use Traditional Chinese characters, my native written language, in some of my posts too. I do want to share ideas/info with fellow FTers and wider audience, so when I include Traditional Chinese characters, I always try my best to either translate and/or provide pinyi/romanization. The messages I want my posts to convey is "please come and read me. Join me."

Somehow when I pay a visit to your Hinglish thread, I didn't and don't feel that way. I feel alienated. Your posts in this thread seems defensive and hostile too. Is that part of your goals too?


Not me. Not that I don't want to enjoy, I can't. At least not in the way that thread is going/written.

So allow me to repeat my question again: Are you going to translate every post in your Hinglish thread or not? :confused:

Since everyone here is in such a demanding mood, and most of you are frequent posters in the UA Forum, will you also be kind enough to translate some of the American English phrases you have used throughout your threads ?

Though I am not a native English speaker, I am able to converse in your native language quite well, but I don't understand the American slang used generously in that forum (probably in the DL Forum as well).

Who will help please ? In the spirit of FT, I think it is only correct that one (or all of you) should reciprocate my requests ? After all, we are all here to help one another, right ?

Please advise. And please don't back out or make lame excuses. I can easily come up with a few hundred threads for you to translate.

Unless I am mistaken, the request was to translate every post in that thread.

On what basis do you feel rathin100 (or anyone else for that matter) has to fulfill that request ?

Does he work for those people ?

Will you also help me if I need translation (of meaning, not text) in the various threads in the UA/DL/Southwest Forums where "American slang" is used quite often ? I assume you don't have a day job and will be more than happy to help.

Since everyone here is in such a demanding mood, and most of you are frequent posters in the UA Forum, will you also be kind enough to translate some of the American English phrases you have used throughout your threads ?

Though I am not a native English speaker, I am able to converse in your native language quite well, but I don't understand the American slang used generously in that forum (probably in the DL Forum as well).

Who will help please ? In the spirit of FT, I think it is only correct that one (or all of you) should reciprocate my requests ? After all, we are all here to help one another, right ?

Please advise. And please don't back out or make lame excuses. I can easily come up with a few hundred threads for you to translate.

What do you need translated on those forums?

What do you need translated on those forums?

Everything in about 100 threads - to start out with. I'll send you a list if you commit to translating all of them. Google won't help me there as many of the comments have underlying meanings (to be found in any language I am sure, including Hindi).

In any case, I don't see why you are asking me what I want translated. Rathin100 also offered to translate on a post by post basis, where requested. Instead, certain people asked that all comments be translated.

My request is only similar in nature.

You will be surprised. Because the majority of the posters in the UA/DL/Southwest forums are from the US, you and most other frequent posters use all sorts of phrases and terms that a non American (but still a native English) speaker would not understand. A lot of the meaning is left out for us, so we non American speakers are not able to participate in those discussions, since we are unable to understand the true meaning and intent of comments.

This is especially true when you (and other frequent American posters) make references to American culture, history, sports icons, politics, etc.

Please advise. And please don't back out or make lame excuses. I can easily come up with a few hundred threads for you to translate.

^

Ill put my 10 year old son onto it.. ... he makes requests of a very similar nature so should be able to oblige better...

good for him infact seriously..:)

I question the intention behind such observations and find it interesting that there would be opposition to what is essentially a little bit of fun that harms nobody. While private clubs generally enact convenient rules and regulations to keep the natives out, so to speak, I am glad to see that FT does not have such rules, as yet.

+1

Since everyone here is in such a demanding mood, and most of you are frequent posters in the UA Forum, will you also be kind enough to translate some of the American English phrases you have used throughout your threads ?

Though I am not a native English speaker, I am able to converse in your native language quite well, but I don't understand the American slang used generously in that forum (probably in the DL Forum as well).

Who will help please ? In the spirit of FT, I think it is only correct that one (or all of you) should reciprocate my requests ? After all, we are all here to help one another, right ?

Please advise. And please don't back out or make lame excuses. I can easily come up with a few hundred threads for you to translate.
(underline mine)

Since you quoted one of my (lengthy) post, I am going to respond and make corrections of your "assumptions" about me:

1. I fly UA, among others, but am not a frequent flyer/poster in UA Forum. I actually fly a lot less than any regular FTer. :o

2. I am Taiwanese, not American. No green card holder either. Allow me to repeat myself: I am not an English native speaker either. English is the 3rd language (I think) I am comfortably using at this point.

3. I, for the most part, am able to engage in the dialogues and conversations on FT using (American) English.

4. In some occasions, I do have to look up American idioms and dictionaries (online). I am always amazed how easy it is to find the meaning of American idioms online via Google. For example, just the other day, I had to look up "hit the hay" used by a fellow FTer. I was very happy about learning something new in English when I found the answer by myself. When I am not able to find the answers online, which is rare, I ask in thread. In the past, when I asked for help for English translation and/or explanations, my fellow FTers always chimed in.

I don't agree with your observation of "being demanding." I consider the discussion in thread more toward constructive criticism. FT is an English internet bulletin board, as you are perfectly aware by now. English is the standard language for FT. When a thread is deliberately initiated on FT in a non-standard language, we have to ask ourselves:

1. What's the purpose of this kind of thread?
2. Does this kind of thread have anything to do with the missions of FT (i.e. point/mile/travel discussion)?
3. If the answer to questions#2 is "no", then we have to ask which forum on FT will make a better home for such "language exercise." If it's just a thread to have fun in another language, maybe the airline forum isn't the best home. Folks are having tons of fun in OMNI, where you don't have to stay on topic all the time!

You may not know but there's an existing OMNI thread about "Learn one Swiss German word a day" (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/667284-learn-one-swiss-german-word-day.html) since 2007. Rudi, the OP, took upon himself and has been updating said thread.

On what basis do you feel rathin100 (or anyone else for that matter) has to fulfill that request ?
Asking OP of said thread to provide translation assistance, IMHO, is only a reasonable 1st step. S/he is the OP who chose to use a non-standard language on FT, right? Not to mention that OP kindly offered her/himself for such work. How does that make those of us take upon his/her translation offer as "demanding?" :confused:

In my earlier post when I said I didn't feel welcome in the Hinglish thread, I was actually comparing the approach Rudi used with rathin100's. Even though I still don't speak any Swiss German (sorry, Rudi! ;)), but whenever I stop by Rudi's thread, I can always understand and learn a thing or two. Personally, I like this line of "engaging" approach better. ^

Will you also help me if I need translation (of meaning, not text) in the various threads in the UA/DL/Southwest Forums where "American slang" is used quite often ? I assume you don't have a day job and will be more than happy to help.
FT is NOT a site about learning English nor American slang/culture. On the other hand, I indeed have learned quite a bit of American slang and culture from the time I spent on FT. For that invaluable bonus, I thank my fellow FTers! From my personal experiences, FTers are eager to help those who help themselves. For those who expect spoon feeding, disappointment is down the road.

Let me turn the table and ask you: have you asked in any of the threads that you needed assistance with? What have you done on your own part when you failed to understand the content/posts of any FT thread that you wanted to participate? Did you get no help after asking such questions?

What's wrong of using American slang/idioms on an American-dominated site? That's only normal and the norm. FT is an internet bulletin board that suits, for the most part, English speakers. FT is not for everyone, especially not for those who have difficulty expressing in or understanding English. That is a fact. What would you think if I go to the German version of FT and expect them not using lots German and German slang?

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. We shall all be reasonable and stay on topic:

"Do we really want non-English threads just for the sake of it?"

:)

(underline mine)

Since you quoted one of my (lengthy) post, I am going to respond and make corrections of your "assumptions" about me:

1. I fly UA, among others, but am not a frequent flyer/poster in UA Forum. I actually fly a lot less than any regular FTer. :o

2. I am Taiwanese, not American. No green card holder either. Allow me to repeat myself: I am not an English native speaker either. English is the 3rd language (I think) I am comfortably using at this point.

3. I, for the most part, am able to engage in the dialogues and conversations on FT using (American) English.

4. In some occasions, I do have to look up American idioms and dictionaries (online). I am always amazed how easy it is to find the meaning of American idioms online via Google. For example, just the other day, I had to look up "hit the hay" used by a fellow FTer. I was very happy about learning something new in English when I found the answer by myself. When I am not able to find the answers online, which is rare, I ask in thread. In the past, when I asked for help for English translation and/or explanations, my fellow FTers always chimed in.

I don't agree with your observation of "being demanding." I consider the discussion in thread more toward constructive criticism. FT is an English internet bulletin board, as you are perfectly aware by now. English is the standard language for FT. When a thread is deliberately initiated on FT in a non-standard language, we have to ask ourselves:

1. What's the purpose of this kind of thread?
2. Does this kind of thread have anything to do with the missions of FT (i.e. point/mile/travel discussion)?
3. If the answer to questions#2 is "no", then we have to ask which forum on FT will make a better home for such "language exercise." If it's just a thread to have fun in another language, maybe the airline forum isn't the best home. Folks are having tons of fun in OMNI, where you don't have to stay on topic all the time!

You may not know but there's an existing OMNI thread about "Learn one Swiss German word a day" (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/667284-learn-one-swiss-german-word-day.html) since 2007. Rudi, the OP, took upon himself and has been updating said thread.


Asking OP of said thread to provide translation assistance, IMHO, is only a reasonable 1st step. S/he is the OP who chose to use a non-standard language on FT, right? Not to mention that OP kindly offered her/himself for such work. How does that make those of us take upon his/her translation offer as "demanding?" :confused:

In my earlier post when I said I didn't feel welcome in the Hinglish thread, I was actually comparing the approach Rudi used with rathin100's. Even though I still don't speak any Swiss German (sorry, Rudi! ;)), but whenever I stop by Rudi's thread, I can always understand and learn a thing or two. Personally, I like this line of "engaging" approach better. ^


FT is NOT a site about learning English nor American slang/culture. On the other hand, I indeed have learned quite a bit of American slang and culture from the time I spent on FT. For that invaluable bonus, I thank my fellow FTers! From my personal experiences, FTers are eager to help those who help themselves. For those who expect spoon feeding, disappointment is down the road.

Let me turn the table and ask you: have you asked in any of the threads that you needed assistance with? What have you done on your own part when you failed to understand the content/posts of any FT thread that you wanted to participate? Did you get no help after asking such questions?

What's wrong of using American slang/idioms on an American-dominated site? That's only normal and the norm. FT is an internet bulletin board that suits, for the most part, English speakers. FT is not for everyone, especially not for those who have difficulty expressing in or understanding English. That is a fact. What would you think if I go to the German version of FT and expect them not using lots German and German slang?

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. We shall all be reasonable and stay on topic:

"Do we really want non-English threads just for the sake of it?"

:)

Very frankly, I find your comments to be more hostile than those of rathin100.

My comments were not directed only at you, but also at others. I do in fact find it unreasonable and demanding when one poster asks that all comments, including future ones, be translated. So this fellow already knows in advance what he wants/needs ?

You are free to have your own views, but it is upto the moderator of the EK Forum to decide what he will allow, and I think he has a valid reason in doing so.

As for your comments that FT is an American dominated site, I couldn't disagree with you more. I think many people, particularly in the Asian and European airline forums would strongly disagree as well.

(underline mine)


Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. We shall all be reasonable and stay on topic:

"Do we really want non-English threads just for the sake of it?"

:)


Ok I share the above sentiment.

The thread in Hinglish is 1 among very many. My offer was made in good faith on the following basis: If people come to that thread and want to know whats going on -- and there are good reasons to do this such as a context specific interest ion the region, travel plans on Ek, etc -- I am happy to provide a summary and translate sepcific posts on themes. I am even willing to post a query or viewpoint that is topical to the EK forum in that thread and cross translate. In other words, I am happy to respond rto engagement, but not itranslate in response to a position regarding the use of a specific language that you and some others seem to be holding.

Hence, if people wish to score debating points by insisting I translate everything, without context, and without even bothering to post in that thread, then that is not terrain I will engage on...as I said previously, my ten year old son may --hes at an age when debating points are improtant -- and I will ask him when he gets back from school.

I think it is clear that enough people want at leats this non English thread. So the thread stays, until the EK moderator(and read previous post as to why this thread is on EK and not some other airline) and you can judge whether it exists for the sake of it or not. So can others.

As for your comments that FT is an American dominated site, I couldn't disagree with you more. I think many people, particularly in the Asian and European airline forums would strongly disagree as well.
I am sorry you find my reasoning hostile. You can't explain feelings but we can with facts and behaviors. I don't use impression nor feelings to back up my arguments. Here's one of the facts: More than 60% of FT traffic is from the United States (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11687848-post43.html). (Yes, I knew that post was two-year-old but I doubt the FTers demographics change much over the years).

I know Asian and European airline fora are active but that doesn't change the fact FT is US-based and, FT, as a whole, is American-dominated.

The thread in Hinglish is 1 among very many. My offer was made in good faith on the following basis: If people come to that thread and want to know whats going on -- and there are good reasons to do this such as a context specific interest ion the region, travel plans on Ek, etc -- I am happy to provide a summary and translate sepcific posts on themes. I am even willing to post a query or viewpoint that is topical to the EK forum in that thread and cross translate. In other words, I am happy to respond rto engagement, but not itranslate in response to a position regarding the use of a specific language that you and some others seem to be holding.
(emphasis mine)

I got and get your points. But you didn't get mine. :(

I tried to read your Hinglish thread in an attempt to understand what's going on over there. To be perfectly honest with you, I have no clue what had been talked about in that thread. If I don't know anything, not even the topic of that thread, how would I be able to form any opinion, informed or not, on where it is going or should be going; whether I can jump in or would like to jump in? That is contradictory to your goal of "broaden communication spectrum."

Speaking for myself, that's why I asked if you, the OP, would translate the thread into English, so I may have a chance to understand the discussion in the FT standard language. I don't understand why you and some others would think this expectation is hostile or even cross the line. I really don't think to expect English on FT is too much to ask. I get the idea your Hinglish thread is not the only "foreign" language thread on FT. Unfortunately, yours was taken as an case in point and I happen to be a non-Hinglish reader.

I also don't get why you and supporters of your thread seem to take a defensive measure toward a reasonable discussion about the official language on FT. We are not here to talk about moderation. Even if we wanted to, we can't. FT's policy is no public discussion about moderation.

The bottom line is: Is English the official language on FT?

If it is, what is the purpose of using an unofficial language to start a thread just for the sake of it?

How does that make a better FT?

I am sorry you find my reasoning hostile. You can't explain feelings but we can with facts and behaviors. I don't use impression nor feelings to back up my arguments. Here's one of the facts: More than 60% of FT traffic is from the United States (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11687848-post43.html). (Yes, I knew that post was two-year-old but I doubt the FTers demographics change much over the years).

I know Asian and European airline fora are active but that doesn't change the fact FT is US-based and, FT, as a whole, is American-dominated.


(emphasis mine)

I got and get your points. But you didn't get mine. :(

I tried to read your Hinglish thread in an attempt to understand what's going on over there. To be perfectly honest with you, I have no clue what had been talked about in that thread. If I don't know anything, not even the topic of that thread, how would I be able to form any opinion, informed or not, on where it is going or should be going; whether I can jump in or would like to jump in? That is contradictory to your goal of "broaden communication spectrum."

Speaking for myself, that's why I asked if you, the OP, would translate the thread into English, so I may have a chance to understand the discussion in the FT standard language. I don't understand why you and some others would think this expectation is hostile or even cross the line. I really don't think to expect English on FT is too much to ask. I get the idea your Hinglish thread is not the only "foreign" language thread on FT. Unfortunately, yours was taken as an case in point and I happen to be a non-Hinglish reader.

I also don't get why you and supporters of your thread seem to take a defensive measure toward a reasonable discussion about the official language on FT. We are not here to talk about moderation. Even if we wanted to, we can't. FT's policy is no public discussion about moderation.

The bottom line is: Is English the official language on FT?

If it is, what is the purpose of using an unofficial language to start a thread just for the sake of it?

How does that make a better FT?

With respect, I dont think you get my point. Ill retry

(1) Post in the hinglish thread and you will get replies/translations Remember the thread is an Emirates thread so if you have relevant queries questions, I am happy to translate. What I am not happy to do is to entyer into a general discussion on the raison de etre (err.. reason for existence) of the thread there. i am happy to do so, and am doing so, here

(2) I like your bottom line. The plain answer for me is: No! So the rest is redundant.

I know Asian and European airline fora are active but that doesn't change the fact FT is US-based and, FT, as a whole, is American-dominated.




Wrong again. The LH Forum, for example, is anything but US dominated, either in terms of the moderator or the participants. The vast majority, especially the "experts" there, are mostly continental Europe based. I think they (rightfully so, perhaps) don't want to be labeled American anything. In fact, there is a certain degree of disdain for US policies, culture, and most certainly the US airlines.

You cannot apply the same cookie cutter (American slang which some people might not comprehend) philosophy/culture to every Forum on FT.

As for discussing whether we need a non English based thread, I think we do (to answer your question). EK is a multilingual airline. They make it a point to inform pax that English is only one of a half dozen or more languages spoken on board. The Hindi-English thread is just a natural extension of this.

Some may agree with me, and others may not.

Wrong again. The LH Forum, for example, is anything but US dominated, either in terms of the moderator or the participants.
Sigh. It's impossible to communicate in statistics when I am talking about the whole FT population and you rebut with subforum participants. Just like when I say the majority of U.S. are white and you say, not true in Texas (a minority-majority state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority-majority_state)).

This thread is in TalkBoard Topics Forum, where suggestions with regard to the management, organization and content of FlyerTalk. TBers listen to and take input from FTers, then make recommendations, following TB Guidelines, to TOS/policies for FT. The main concern of this TB thread is the official language for FT and how should FT handle threads mainly in non-standard languages.

FWIW, I am not against using non-English on FT. Like I said, I sometimes use Traditional Chinese when necessary. I actually gave a few Chinese language lesson-posts in the community lounge thread.

Folks already raised some good points up thread. It's up to TBers to decide now whether clarification of FT official language is needed and/or whether any revision of TOS is called upon.

Sigh. It's impossible to communicate in statistics when I am talking about the whole FT population and you rebut with subforum participants. Just like when I say the majority of U.S. are white and you say, not true in Texas (a minority-majority state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority-majority_state)).


That's precisely the problem I have with your comments. You are adamant in trying to apply the same exact rules in every forum. How can you expect the same rules to apply for N American Airlines and Asian/European ones.

Are you aware that, for example in the LH Forum, moderators in fact often post fare restrictions/offers in German, because that is the only country where they are offered ? There is rarely a translation, and no one seems to have a problem with it.

Are you suggesting that should stop as well ? Please consider the consequences of your "one size fits all" approach.

Also, regarding the demographics of Texas vs the national average, please note that is why we have federal law and state law. There are too many variances from state to state to have a blanket federal law for all instances.

Certain laws vary from state to state, based on the demographics. I know that Spanish is widely spoken in public school announcements in Arizona because of their large Hipanic population. I am sure you won't find the same thing in say Nebraska or Kansas. Why is that ? Because local/state laws/customs are a reflection of their constituents.

The same analogy can be applied to the Hindi-English thread in the EK Forum. Not only is EK the largest foreign carrier in/out of India, many of their other flights have a predominant Hindi speaking passenger base as well. (SFO-DXB for example). So it is but natural to have a Hindi based thread in the EK forum.

The whole non-english sentiment leaves a bad taste in my mouth. We all have brains. Why be so rigid. What about the saying, 'No harm, no foul'?

That's precisely the problem I have with your comments. You are adamant in trying to apply the same exact rules in every forum. How can you expect the same rules to apply for N American Airlines and Asian/European ones.
Am I? Did I? Have I? I didn't know a simple fact of stats/demographics can be implied to what you said. :confused:

I've never said anything close to the effect that a thread in "foreign" language/s shouldn't have existed on FT. After a few posts, I believe rathin100 and I are seeing things through each other's eyes now.

I totally understand the context and how/what you base your POVs. However you completely misunderstood my posts. The way I read your posts, you allow your "emotion" to take over when reading the "content" and context of my posts. Please take a step back and re-read what I was trying to say. I don't think you really "see" what I was trying to convey. I don't think I can try any better.

On what basis do you feel rathin100 (or anyone else for that matter) has to fulfill that request ?

On the basis of what said FTer posted earlier in this thread. That or acknowledge the intent is, unlike stated earlier, to not always deliver as stated.

That's precisely the problem I have with your comments. You are adamant in trying to apply the same exact rules in every forum. How can you expect the same rules to apply for N American Airlines and Asian/European ones.

Are you aware that, for example in the LH Forum, moderators in fact often post fare restrictions/offers in German, because that is the only country where they are offered ? There is rarely a translation, and no one seems to have a problem with it.

Online translations of German into English is a much easier and more reliable process than doing so for transcriptions of Hindi and "Hinglish" in the Roman alphabet. There is no standardized dictionary that is officially accepted for attempted Roman alphabet transcriptions of Hindi.

Online translations of German into English is a much easier and more reliable process than doing so for transcriptions of Hindi and "Hinglish" in the Roman alphabet. There is no standardized dictionary that is officially accepted for attempted Roman alphabet transcriptions of Hindi.

This is precisely the kind of point scoring that I think is unhelpful and frankly very disappointing in what is after all an adult forum.

If you choose to nitpick on the spirit of my offer, then you will get the same answer as I have to often give my ten year old in similar situations...you will get what I offer in the spirit of what I offer but pushing me will get you nothing!

I don't think you really "see" what I was trying to convey. I don't think I can try any better.

I feel quite the same way. Let's leave it at that.

On the basis of what said FTer posted earlier in this thread. That or acknowledge the intent is, unlike stated earlier, to not always deliver as stated.

Said FTer agreed to translate on a post by post basis, as requested. Not every single one, including future ones.

A few posters, including yourself, tried to take advantage of this,

:rolleyes:

Request:

This request is aimed only at those who are demanding that all posts be in English.

Please use English correctly when posting in this thread. This is especially true of capitalization and, most especially, of not writing "english".

The bottom line is: Is English the official language on FT?

If it were the official language of FT, it would reflect poorly on the FT community to enforce such a rule with any degree of vigor. Most american-based FTers know very well that the debate surrounding English in american society at large is actually a proxy argument for something that is far, far nastier. If FT is indeed an inclusive, welcoming, diverse, multi-cultural community, then strictly requiring the use of English would be anathema.

Request:

This request is aimed only at those who are demanding that all posts be in English.

Please use English correctly when posting in this thread. This is especially true of capitalization and, most especially, of not writing "english".

:D:D:D^^

Said FTer agreed to translate on a post by post basis, as requested. Not every single one, including future ones.

A few posters, including yourself, tried to take advantage of this,

:rolleyes:

Your claim about me is false as I tried no such thing as you suggest. Unlike others here, I personally have nothing to gain by asking said FTer to translate anything in that thread for me. I still have neither need nor desire to request such on my own behalf -- no less so when any such hypothetical request coming from me on my own behalf would be but a waste of time as I would have nothing to gain from what are unneeded translations given my own resources.

If it were the official language of FT, it would reflect poorly on the FT community to enforce such a rule with any degree of vigor. Most american-based FTers know very well that the debate surrounding English in american society at large is actually a proxy argument for something that is far, far nastier. If FT is indeed an inclusive, welcoming, diverse, multi-cultural community, then strictly requiring the use of English would be anathema.

Could the difference between that proxy argument and the concerns raised here be that expressions of the former are rooted in a desire to exclude other groups while the latter is rooted in trying to foster inclusiveness and accessibility for other groups as well?

This is precisely the kind of point scoring that I think is unhelpful and frankly very disappointing in what is after all an adult forum.

If you choose to nitpick on the spirit of my offer, then you will get the same answer as I have to often give my ten year old in similar situations...you will get what I offer in the spirit of what I offer but pushing me will get you nothing!

Rather than being a nitpick, there is a substantive difference: "Online translations of German into English is a much easier and more reliable process than doing so for transcriptions of Hindi and 'Hinglish' in the Roman alphabet. There is no standardized dictionary that is officially accepted for attempted Roman alphabet transcriptions of Hindi." The German posted in the LH threads is quite ordinarily and reliably translated by online means. Roman alphabet transliterations of Hindi are not as easily and reliably translated online into English.

The EK thread would be more accessible to more people if it just used English, Devanagari script Hindi and/or the Arabic alphabet (with whatever adjustments necessary) for Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu or what not. Roman alphabet transliterations of languages that don't use the Roman alphabet in standardized dictionaries make things more difficult and less reliable in terms of accessibility to more people.

Could the difference between that proxy argument and the concerns raised here be that expressions of the former are rooted in a desire to exclude other groups while the latter is rooted in trying to foster inclusiveness and accessibility for other groups as well?

I think it is a question of context. One experimental thread in one forum dedicated to a language that can be understood by a very large component of the world's population with representation on every continent and practically every nation, is hardly a challenge to inclusiveness.

Conversely, a concerted effort to enforce a single language on a forum, when that language is not understood by many would indeed be a challenge to inclusiveness and accessibility.

Rather than being a nitpick, there is a substantive difference: "Online translations of German into English is a much easier and more reliable process than doing so for transcriptions of Hindi and 'Hinglish' in the Roman alphabet. There is no standardized dictionary that is officially accepted for attempted Roman alphabet transcriptions of Hindi." The German posted in the LH threads is quite ordinarily and reliably translated by online means. Roman alphabet transliterations of Hindi are not as easily and reliably translated online into English.

The EK thread would be more accessible to more people if it just used English, Devanagari script Hindi and/or the Arabic alphabet (with whatever adjustments necessary) for Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu or what not. Roman alphabet transliterations of languages that don't use the Roman alphabet in standardized dictionaries make things more difficult and less reliable in terms of accessibility to more people.

Fair point..agreed, not a nitpick, my apologies.

Ill think about this and see what can be done.

I think it is a question of context. One experimental thread in one forum dedicated to a language that can be understood by a very large component of the world's population with representation on every continent and practically every nation, is hardly a challenge to inclusiveness.

Conversely, a concerted effort to enforce a single language on a forum, when that language is not understood by many would indeed be a challenge to inclusiveness and accessibility.

+1 :-:

Roman alphabet transliterations of languages that don't use the Roman alphabet in standardized dictionaries make things more difficult and less reliable in terms of accessibility to more people.

I don't know much about other languages but I can attest the above statement is true for Traditional Chinese (characters). I often have to scratch my head, trying to figure out what Chinese characters/words folks are referring to when Roman and/or pinyin transliteration is used.

I don't know much about other languages but I can attest the above statement is true for Traditional Chinese (characters). I often have to scratch my head, trying to figure out what Chinese characters/words folks are referring to when Roman and/or pinyin transliteration is used.

Not true of Hinglish/Urdlish/Banglish Tamlish etc. These are idioms widely used on the street, on TV in ads and in informal conversation in South Asia. ..the roman text is easy enough to get... in fact some words would be unknown outside classical/governmental circles the English word having long replaced the original. "Sandarbh"" is an example... it means context.. but no one uses it. ""Context"" has become the word...in Hindi, Bengali..etc. And so, despite the best efforts of purists, emerges a living hybrid!

Remember English is widely spoken in south Asia, is the language of communication in central government in India Pakistan and Sri Lanka, is a constitutionally recognised official language in India. Hence it elides well with Indian languages The written hybrids reflect this as much as the oral. You do need to understand the South Asian language to understand the idiom, though.

Also most South Asian languages (Tamil being a notable exception) are lineal descendants of the Indo-European group of languages, through Sanskrit -- which is not the case with Chinese etc.

Your claim about me is false as I tried no such thing as you suggest. Unlike others here, I personally have nothing to gain by asking said FTer to translate anything in that thread for me. I still have neither need nor desire to request such on my own behalf -- no less so when any such hypothetical request coming from me on my own behalf would be but a waste of time as I would have nothing to gain from what are unneeded translations given my own resources.

Then what was your intent of post # 33 ? English to English translation ?

I think it is a question of context. One experimental thread in one forum dedicated to a language that can be understood by a very large component of the world's population with representation on every continent and practically every nation, is hardly a challenge to inclusiveness.
(underline mine)

Context, that's a great point!

I think Mandarin/Chinese fits the bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers) of "a language that can be understood by a very large component of the world's population with representation on every continent and practically every nation." Would you care to elaborate in the FT context, how a thread say in Chinese in Other Asian, Australian and South Pacific Frequent Flyer Programs Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-asian-australian-south-pacific-frequent-flyer-programs-470/) has to do with inclusiveness on FT?

Then what was your intent of post # 33 ? English to English translation ?

To explain the request made in an earlier post.

I see a few questions.

Is Flyertalk able to assess the situation without being caught up in its past policies?
Is this policy representative of the owners' and members' best interests?
Is Flyertalk able to respond to market needs?

I look at Facebook, a marginally usefull communication tool that strives to match its product to the needs of their consumers. They are doing phenomenally, and I have adopted it, because they meet my needs not because I like their products or policies.

The speed of Facebook's worldwide adoption would not have been possible without their adoption of foreign languages. They don't seem to have any visible issues with translation or inappropriate conduct.

(underline mine)

Context, that's a great point!

I think Mandarin/Chinese fits the bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers) of "a language that can be understood by a very large component of the world's population with representation on every continent and practically every nation." Would you care to elaborate in the FT context, how a thread say in Chinese in Other Asian, Australian and South Pacific Frequent Flyer Programs Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-asian-australian-south-pacific-frequent-flyer-programs-470/) has to do with inclusiveness on FT?

That's a great question and I'm happy to share my thoughts on it. First though, I followed the link in your post and could not find a thread in any of the Chinese languages, but I probably wasn't looking hard enough. Are you sure there is one, or is this purely an academic discussion?

In terms of inclusiveness, I think a thread in any language that helps people is going to be useful. If someone is more confident writing in a language other than English, I think the concept of inclusiveness should be used to allow them to post in that language. It is likely, but should not be mandatory, that someone would likely translate that information at some point anyway, but it will have been documented, timestamped and available for all.

So I know what you are thinking, so lets talk process for a moment...
Is there the possibility that I might miss something if the information presented is in say, Mandarin? Of course, but OTOH, if I were looking for information on the Other Asian, Australian and South Pacific Frequent Flyer Programs Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-asian-australian-south-pacific-frequent-flyer-programs-470/) forum, I would probably post my question in English and wait for someone to answer. If the information I was seeking was already avairable in Mandarin, there is a likelyhood that another FT member would point that out and translate it for me.

The bottom line is that inclusiveness should involve allowing those who ordinarily would not be able to communicate in English to do so, and for the welcoming, helpful nature of the FT community to reach out and help disseminate information to those who need it.

One more point, which may be lost on many here, but when Spanish becomes the identifying language of the majority of Americans in a few years, I would hope those who are too lazy to learn it would still be able to post here in English without xenophobia and intolerance hidden behind cleverly mounted questions of policy and values, and other similar mumbo jumbo preventing them from doing so. ;) @:-)

I look at Facebook, a marginally usefull communication tool that strives to match its product to the needs of their consumers. They are doing phenomenally, and I have adopted it, because they meet my needs not because I like their products or policies.

The speed of Facebook's worldwide adoption would not have been possible without their adoption of foreign languages. They don't seem to have any visible issues with translation or inappropriate conduct.

But there is quite a big difference between Facebook and Flyertalk (or other online discussion forums).

Facebook is not one community, but many. Lots of little groups of friends all huddled together, with little contact between one group and the next. Facebook users share the same space (a bit like people sitting at different tables in the same restaurant), but they don't do things as a group.

Flyertalk is an open forum - if Facebook can be compared to a restaurant then maybe Flyertalk should be compared to a conference room. Lots of people all interacting with each other.

A forum like Flyertalk needs a common language.

Not having a common language would fundamentally alter the character of this forum.

To explain the request made in an earlier post.

Sure. Nice try.

One more point, which may be lost on many here, but when Spanish becomes the identifying language of the majority of Americans in a few years, I would hope those who are too lazy to learn it would still be able to post here in English without xenophobia and intolerance hidden behind cleverly mounted questions of policy and values, and other similar mumbo jumbo preventing them from doing so. ;) @:-)

^

:-::-::-::-:^

We shall all be reasonable and stay on topic:

"Do we really want non-English threads just for the sake of it?"

:)

OK, sure, why not?

If people post threads in non-English languages:

- if not enough FTers speak the language, then the threads will wither and die. The OPs won't bother starting them much because they'll know they'll get better info or response if they start their thread looking for a hotel recommendation in Rio in the English language than the Icelandic language.

- if enough FTers speak the language, then the threads will thrive and be a useful to whoever happens to be interested in them. That might include attracting new FTers who had always wanted to discuss mileage credit in Icelandic but hadn't had a resource before. The more information that's generated and the more people here, the better. I find it hard to believe that an increase in non-English posts would lead to a decrease in English posts.

I have no idea what FT thinks of it as a corporate entity - presumably so long as they can continue to sell ads, they'll be fine with it.

But as a user, I have no problem with it.

Sure. Nice try.

I stated what I meant and meant what I stated, but if anyone wants to believe otherwise or believe that the explanation was not frank even after given the explanation, keep with the imagination as wished. Every entitlement to such belief regardless of the questionable foundation.

Would the explanation provided make more sense to all here if done in some other language beside English? That being asked given concerns about understanding being the issue, of course, rather than posturing for some argument's sake.

My point was that its success is directly attributable to its ability to meet user needs. This is something that FT does not approach with the same enthusiasm.

I do like the take it or leave it attitude that some of the posters present. This is the opposite of meeting market needs and could likely end with members departing. If this is the FT you want, fine with me.

I also shake my head when people try to win arguments at any cost. Take a deep breath. The rest of this thread will do find without me. This is my last post on the subject.

My point was that its success is directly attributable to its ability to meet user needs. This is something that FT does not approach with the same enthusiasm.

I do like the take it or leave it attitude that some of the posters present. This is the opposite of meeting market needs and could likely end with members departing. If this is the FT you want, fine with me.

I also shake my head when people try to win arguments at any cost. Take a deep breath. The rest of this thread will do find without me. This is my last post on the subject.

youre not leaving us just when the thread is about to hit the magic 100 number!!!;)

I stated what I meant and meant what I stated,...

That's exactly what I have been saying all along.

That being asked given concerns about understanding being the issue, of course, rather than posturing for some argument's sake.

My concern is just the opposite.

My concern is just the opposite.

Your don't want the posts in that EK thread being understandable to more FTers than is the case currently? That's what it means to have the opposite concern of that represented in my posts in this thread.

Your don't want the posts in that EK thread being understandable to more FTers than is the case currently? That's what it means to have the opposite concern of that represented in my posts in this thread.

I feel that your true concern is just the opposite of what you are now stating. This may of course be all up to my imagination, but sadly, I am not the only one to think this way.

Again to bring up your post # 33:

Unless I am mistaken, the request was to translate every post in that thread.

Exactly what "explanation" did you offer ? Your wording is nearly identical to post # 31 from justforfun. How did you convey the meaning of post # 31 differently ?

I see it more as a bully tactic by you and another poster in post # 34, to a reasonable request by rathin100 to help in understanding the Hindi-English thread.

Let's end this discussion. I am tired of arguing with you over semantics.

OK, sure, why not?

If people post threads in non-English languages:

- if not enough FTers speak the language, then the threads will wither and die. The OPs won't bother starting them much because they'll know they'll get better info or response if they start their thread looking for a hotel recommendation in Rio in the English language than the Icelandic language.

- if enough FTers speak the language, then the threads will thrive and be a useful to whoever happens to be interested in them. That might include attracting new FTers who had always wanted to discuss mileage credit in Icelandic but hadn't had a resource before. The more information that's generated and the more people here, the better. I find it hard to believe that an increase in non-English posts would lead to a decrease in English posts.

I have no idea what FT thinks of it as a corporate entity - presumably so long as they can continue to sell ads, they'll be fine with it.

But as a user, I have no problem with it.

^ I think this is a reasonable position The EK French thread is long dead The EK Hinglish thread does not have a high intensity of traffic but is doing reasonably on EK specific South Asia specific questions..

I find it hard to believe that an increase in non-English posts would lead to a decrease in English posts.

.

This is the bottom line!

I see no reason why an increase in non-English posts would lead to a decline in English posts, but that doesn't really change a thing with regard to risk of linguistic Balkanization of a forum.

I feel that your true concern is just the opposite of what you are now stating.

Then I am confident that your feeling about me on this matter is not based in reality, as I know quite well what my "true concern" remains.

This may of course be all up to my imagination, but sadly, I am not the only one to think this way.

Every conspiracy theory gets some oxygen when another can be found to agree with a conspiracy theory.

Again to bring up your post # 33:



Exactly what "explanation" did you offer ?

An explanation that was correcting a misunderstanding in response to an earlier post.

How did you convey the meaning of post # 31 differently ?

The idea was to convey the meaning of the other FTer's post as it was intended -- there would be no point to convey a different meaning of that post unless the idea was to create distractions so as to undermine understanding and dialogue even when there are different approaches and/or opinions related to an issue.

I see it more as a bully tactic by you and another poster in post # 34, to a reasonable request by rathin100 to help in understanding the Hindi-English thread.

:D ROTFLOL :D I have no power on FT -- nor have I sought any -- so the idea of an ordinary member like myself bullying another ordinary member on FT is amusing in the way a fantasy novel may be.

My post was merely an explanation of another's post whose request was either ignored or not understood when a response was given to it. If such explanation is considered bullying, then I must say that I'd love to know how to get a one-way ticket to that utopia where things are so good that all that is left to be considered "bullying" is the kind of action I've taken in this thread.

:D ROTFLOL :D I have no power on FT -- nor have I sought any -- so the idea of an ordinary member like myself bullying another ordinary member on FT is amusing in the way a fantasy novel may be.

While not bullying, I have to say i felt a bit imposed upon by your dogmatic insistence that I translate every post. Of course, I chose to firmly refuse. But I did feel it was not quite in the spirit of things

While not bullying, I have to say i felt a bit imposed upon by your dogmatic insistence that I translate every post. Of course, I chose to firmly refuse. But I did feel it was not quite in the spirit of things

Recall that I said above that I have no need for your translations. I am well capable of achieving the same end with my own capabilities such that I wouldn't waste my time insisting on something for which I have no use and that would waste the time of others.

So who knows why you felt that I was supposedly imposing upon you a "dogmatic insistence to translate every post" when I've made no such demand of you. I have better things to do than request translations on my own behalf from others when the translations are already well within my capacity.

OK, sure, why not?

If people post threads in non-English languages:

- if not enough FTers speak the language, then the threads will wither and die. The OPs won't bother starting them much because they'll know they'll get better info or response if they start their thread looking for a hotel recommendation in Rio in the English language than the Icelandic language.

- if enough FTers speak the language, then the threads will thrive and be a useful to whoever happens to be interested in them. That might include attracting new FTers who had always wanted to discuss mileage credit in Icelandic but hadn't had a resource before. The more information that's generated and the more people here, the better. I find it hard to believe that an increase in non-English posts would lead to a decrease in English posts.

I have no idea what FT thinks of it as a corporate entity - presumably so long as they can continue to sell ads, they'll be fine with it.

But as a user, I have no problem with it.


^ I think this is a reasonable position The EK French thread is long dead The EK Hinglish thread does not have a high intensity of traffic but is doing reasonably on EK specific South Asia specific questions..

I agree 100% as well.

I see no reason why an increase in non-English posts would lead to a decline in English posts, but that doesn't really change a thing with regard to risk of linguistic Balkanization of a forum.

What exactly is the evil that you think you are seeking to avoid?

What exactly is the evil that you think you are seeking to avoid?

As one poster had noted earlier, I think this is more an issue of xenophobia than to promote greater "inclusiveness" in the FT community.

Xenophobia directed toward which "'other' group"?

What exactly is the evil that you think you are seeking to avoid?

Who said it had anything to do with the mythical concept of evil, a religious notion if there ever was one? A person seeking to avoid that which the person doesn't even believe to exist, that would be a pointless exercise. I'm no fan of pointless exercises, regardless of the fiction-based claims that cloud thinking.

Who said it had anything to do with the mythical concept of evil...

Sorry - I've been buried in old textbooks for weeks and apparently my language is becoming as archaic as theirs. I wasn't really venturing into matters spiritual. Let me try and say things a bit more plainly:

what do you think is going to happen that's so bad, specifically?

what do you think is going to happen that's so bad, specifically?

There's no certainty about what is going to happen, but there is certainty about what may happen.

Call the following "good" or "bad", but it is not necessary that more foreign language threads on FT is going to foster understanding and/or inclusiveness or is going to readily facilitate FT TOS compliance enforcement.

All you're saying there is it might change the atmosphere and rules might be broken. What specifically are you worried about?

All you're saying there is it might change the atmosphere and rules might be broken. What specifically are you worried about?

In earlier posts in this thread, I've already stated in my own words what I meant and I meant what I stated. Nothing to currently add beyond any of the above, inclusive of the following:

Call the following "good" or "bad", but it is not necessary that more foreign language threads on FT is going to foster understanding and/or inclusiveness or is going to readily facilitate FT TOS compliance enforcement.

All you're saying there is it might change the atmosphere and rules might be broken. What specifically are you worried about?

Maybe no one really knows. :D

Maybe no one really knows. :D


Rahu Kalam! ( A bad time when it is inappropriate to undertake or commence any activity)!