TalkBoard Topics - What is a 'Do?' When does a 'Do' become a commercial venture?

There are a couple of 'Do's being advertised in CommunityBuzz that appear to be more than a traditional 'Do' as I understand them to exist:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/1186896-chicago-october-2011-seminar-do-registration-open.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/1186030-frequent-traveler-university-nyc-april-30th-2011-a.html

IME, a 'Do' involves a flash-mob of FTers getting together to travel and and tour and break bread of both the solid and liquid variety. Any costs cover the group events and all contribute their share equally in a spirit of community.

Those two (and others?) seem to push that line. Hard. They look to me more like messages for commercial products or services than an invitation to a Do. Among other things, the charges appear to actually pay for other FTers to attend the 'Do' and give seminars. Shouldn't these ventures be purchasing ad space on FT rather than being able to post threads and use FT to recruit customers?

Here's what the TOS currently says:

a. Commercial posts. Posts containing promotional messages for commercial products or services - including but not limited to Internet sites, business advertisements and solicitations to donate miles or points are prohibited and will be removed. FlyerTalk is not a marketplace and nothing is to be offered for sale or conditioned on an exchange of money or barter. Nothing in this rule is intended to prohibit exchange of travel coupons as allowed by the rules of Coupon Connection. If you spot a commercial post, please report it.

Does the TB mean to allow these sort of 'Do's for hire.' Should the TOS be clarified as to these sorts of ventures, one way or another?

After all, if these are allowed then it's pretty reasonable to expect that pretty soon we might see every Ryan Bingham wanna-be starting a thread to sell THEIR frequent flyer or self-help seminar, swearing to GOD that they promise not to turn a profit. And, to me, that's not what FT should be about.

I'd very much like the TB to make a recommendation to the CD on this matter before the floodgates are open to these quasi-commercial solicitations, no matter their nomenclature.

...They look to me more like messages for commercial products or services.... Shouldn't these ventures be purchasing ad space on FT rather than being able to post threads and use FT to recruit customers?

Concur 112%

Completely agree with Koko's assessment.

Concur 112%

Wow. Now THAT's saying something!!!!! :o ;)

I had never thought of this until now, as this is an all volunteer effort by members of the general public, numerous blogs and two or morefrequent traveler forums. The issue has not been raised by anyone else.

Quote
"IME, a 'Do' involves a flash-mob of FTers getting together to travel and and tour and break bread of both the solid and liquid variety. Any costs cover the group events and all contribute their share equally in a spirit of community."

That is exactly what the Chicago Seminar DO is, all of us from FT, other communities and blogs, coming together to share information. If the word "DO" is a registered FT term we will gladly remove it from our announcements. To the best of my knowledge the costs of housing and flying in the speakers will be covered by sponsors, rooms comped by the hotel (BTW nothing from FT) and not the attendees. If fees from registration are ultimately used to cover some speaker costs, your members are certainly welcome to boycott the event on that basis. I'm also convinced that the speakers would cover their own travel expenses if they had to. They did last year in the spirit of the group.

Quote
a. Commercial posts. Posts containing promotional messages for commercial products or services - including but not limited to Internet sites, business advertisements and solicitations to donate miles or points are prohibited and will be removed. FlyerTalk is not a marketplace and nothing is to be offered for sale or conditioned on an exchange of money or barter. Nothing in this rule is intended to prohibit exchange of travel coupons as allowed by the rules of Coupon Connection. If you spot a commercial post, please report it.

As I type this response I see a huge disparity in the rules for some and not others. There are more ads on this page selling stuff than in any of our promotional materials. Flyertalk sure seems to be a marketplace to me?? I'm sure the Talkboard will take this into consideration in their deliberations on this issue.

Just for the record, this event is bigger than FT as it includes many other sources of attendees. As you consider this slippery slope (and I know you must) please keep in mind the volunteer efforts of those involved that benefit this community without asking for anything more than covering expenses and giving back to charity.

If the OP or members of the FT Talkboard have concerns about the structure of this event, I am a member of this community with a PM address and email address so they can address their concerns with the Chicago event with me directly.

And if before they make rash decisions on the topic the Talkboard would like to send a contingent to the event to see their members and others sharing information and helping one another out, I will personally pay their registration fee to see for themselves. You should not judge without seeing for yourself.

And lastly, I am wondering, just wondering, if the formation of a new online community and some of the speakers coming from that site is a partial cause for the concern here? Please keep in mind that many of those involved in this event including me are active members in FT and will stay active members. Our membership should not be deprived of notice and info on the event if that is of any consideration to those bringing up the topic.

My PM and email is open to discuss the issue with any and all Talkboard or general members.

And just to be clear, if the decision is hastily made without reasonable consideration and discussion with all those involved, you may certainly close the thread regarding the Chicago event. We just don't have the money in the budget to pay for advertising when we can get it free elsewhere.

Wow. Now THAT's saying something!!!!! :o ;)

Miracles still happen.

But your assessment is indeed completely spot-on. ^

Let me see...

I personally signed a contract to rent a plane for 130.000 dollars, my dear friends who are stupid enough to help me out and spend thousands of hours to put together lifetime experiences TWICE and spread the Flyertalk name and community on CNN, WSJ, Conde Nast, USA Today. After, this phenomenal community donated 19K USD to charity and noone made a single dollar.

And instead of letting the Freddies go to a marketing company, we again spend thousands of hours to put together an event by frequent travelers for frequent travelers.. We charge 50 dollars for an event that costs more than 100USD per person. Again, for free with no pay and non profit. And all getting huge amount of press for Flyertalk.

And then we take the initiative to get people together to listen to some smart guys who know a hell of a lot more about miles and points than I do and charge 49 dollars to cover lunch, breakfast and drinks. Guess what, a lunch, breakfast, coffee, cookies and drinks cost money. In fact, 68 bucks per person, but thanks to sponsors, we were able to get the price down to 49.

And then Ingy and his friends put together the largest DO in history and take huge risks to make..... no money at all. Why? To build the community.

Yes, I sure think we should pay for add space.. Guess who would have to pay for that add space? I guess we could bump up the price for SMD III to pay IB so us members could give some $$$ that way. And Ingy, let's charge 10 dollars extra from the members who contribute to FT so they can pay IB to meet.

The line has certainly become fuzzier now that Randy seems to have a competing organization. While large scale pay-your-share social events have been the norm on FT for over a decade (and having helped organized what was one of the largest ones to that time in 2001 I feel I have some ability to speak to this), the pay-to-play part is a newer experience. It's even an understandable part since there are a fraction of members (and former members) who don't quite get the idea of "splitting the check" as it were.

With due respect to the SMD organizers, I did raise this point with the senior moderators when Randy was advertising the ability to fly with him on the last SMD. And the response I received can be loosely translated that I was a puppy-killer for saying anything even remotely negative about such a fine upstanding set of individuals.

But now that we're into 2011, and Randy is into several new ventures (and God bless him for figuring out how to make money off of all of us, because somebody was bound to do it and he seems like a nice guy) but they're outside of FT (well FTuniversity is technically FT but it's not the same FT and my head hurts trying to reconcile), the time comes that perhaps a different place than FT Community is the place to do this.

Tommy, you actually have the right model at MP - you have a different set of forums that are explicitly for revenue-producing organizations. I have no idea if they pay MP for the right to do so, and it's none of any of our business to ask. But perhaps Flyertalk has reached the point where such a distinction needs to be made.

I'm a bit confused on tommy's reference to pay IB to meet. IB has nothing to do w/ SMD nor ORD Sem Do, other than both are posted on FT. So let's not sidetrack (cuz if we do, then we'd have to bring MP into it). Wait - a duh moment. koko suggested the 2 groups pay IB for ad space to promote the Dos vs Community Buzz.

Ingy & tommy make very valid points & explain what they did & why they did. koko also makes a valid point using these 2 events as an example, and something for TB/CD to think about.

As a regular FT member:

I've attended SMD 1/2 (which is NOT what koko is referring to). Both were phenomenal events. 'Nuf said! Some of the best memories of my life. There were no extra funds required of the attendees other than what they paid for airfare/hotel, which is in keeping w/ what I think koko's referring to (although on a MUCH larger scale).

There was a charge for FT Awards at SMD2 because FTEF is a non-profit fledgling org & couldn't underwrite all of the dinner like Randy has done in the past for FTers attending Freddies, but that was separate from SMD2. Similar to FT Awards this year.

I've probably won't attend FT Uni due to personal budget (travel; not the fee) so can't address that, other than it's similar to ORD Sem Do & it's run by the FTEF & I believe tommy on the #s. My understanding is FT Uni is being organized by FTEF.

I have attended Chicago Sem Do 1 (along w/ 450 other FTers!), and know it was organized by toomanybooks & ingy who were volunteers & like tommy w/ SMD were crazy enough to take it on.

People got a lot out of it, thought last year's fee was fair, & based up on the sign-up so far of 106 this morning, still think the $$ to cover meals, etc, is a fair exchange for the knowledge gained. That's an important point to consider. Not the only one, but certainly an important one.

I do know from personal experience that the ORD Sem Do, even though not a formal non-profit org, gained no profits. In fact, someone they were involved w/ tried to use it as a marketing tool post-event, and ingy/toomanybooks went ballistic & shut the person down.

The organizers, after they covered expenses, donated the extra to Chicagoland charities (which we also tried to tie into travel) in addition to what I raised on the raffle.

Full disclosure: I was in charge of the charity raffle sale for both Chicago Sem Do & SMD2. I received no compensation for doing so on either event, and actually lost out due to missing some of the sem forums due to charity activities as well as missed most of the advantages of being in F on SMD2 cuz I was running around the entire plane encouraging FTers to buy raffle tickets to raise $$ for charity. (Note: pat on back. We kicked butt on raising $$ for charities on both events - thank you FTers!). I do know that re: CSD that the excess $$ they garnered from the registration fees were added to the amount I raised for the charities via the raffle.

Re: the ad space issue, etc, I think FTers talk w/ their $$. If either of these events were put on by folk who didn't have much connection w/ FT & who weren't full disclosure up front on everything, then FTers probably wouldn't ante up the $$ for the registration fee - and the events would die on the vine. And my understanding is the registration fees cover more the meals, projectors for power point, etc, than speakers. Regardless of what either camp says, my guess is most of the attendees come from FT or MP.

As a TB member but speaking only for myself:

I think both Chicago Seminar Do & FT University have FTers offer value to FTers, and being run by FTers I know & trust, I support them.

Having said that, while I disagree w/ koko's assessment of these being 'dos for hire' & Ryan Wannabes' jumping out of the woodwork, it's worth TB discussing the ramifications & what, if any, action needs to be taken in case that did occur.

Cheers.

Well if the TB believes in these things happening in Cbuzz, they're going to have a tough time approving them only for people and/or events you know and trust and support. Either you allow these pay-to-play 'seminars' that feature compensated speakers and/or underwriting for certain attendees or you don't.

And Ingy, as much as I appreciate your generous offer, I don't think some FTers should be asked to underwrite the travel, lodging and booze for other FTers. @:-)

But hey, if the TB is cool with it I'd like to trade on *my* FT reputation to get free flights, hotel rooms as well as 'registration' at parties including free food and booze! Not to mention pumping whatever random website I decide I want to pump.

TB wants to allow this stuff, count on my doing it!

Maybe I'll call my seminar 'How to get free travel and advertising by putting on Frequent Flyer seminars.' ;)

ElmhurstNick/MP may be onto something: want to have a Do where everyone pays their share of what they use, do it in CBuzz. Want to have a commercial venture (on a profit or non-profit basis), create a separate forum for that.

Well if the TB believes in these things happening in Cbuzz, they're going to have a tough time approving them only for people and/or events you know and trust and support. Either you allow these pay-to-play 'seminars' that feature compensated speakers and/or underwriting for certain attendees or you don't.

And Ingy, as much as I appreciate your generous offer, I don't think some FTers should be asked to underwrite the travel, lodging and booze for other FTers. @:-)

But hey, if the TB is cool with it I'd like to trade on *my* FT reputation to get free flights, hotel rooms as well as 'registration' at parties including free food and booze! Not to mention pumping whatever random website I decide I want to pump.

TB wants to allow this stuff, count on my doing it!

Maybe I'll call my seminar 'How to get free travel and advertising by putting on Frequent Flyer seminars.' ;)

Oh puhleeze. You ask TB to think about it only a few hours ago & most (if any besides me) haven't even seen the darn thread & now you're saying TB is 'cool w/ it'. Give me a break. :rolleyes: Nice try on the sarcasm & shock effect though.

You raised a valid point for TB to consider re: seminar dos, and we'll certainly discuss it.

The organizers of the 2 events responded, as they should since it was their events you were using as an example. They made valid points, as was yours re: the topic being raised at all.

I posted my response, both as an FTer & as a TB member (speaking only for myself).

Presumably over the next few days or weeks other FTers and TB members will add their thoughts for TB to consider, in addition to our own TB discussions re: the matter. Some might agree w/ you; some might not. We'll see how it goes.

FWIW - organizing a seminar do requires a lot more cost than just booking a restaurant for FTers to gather around the table & gab points, which is what most dos involve. And I know last year at ORD Sem Do the speakers paid their own air etc. If this year they decide to underwrite part of the speakers air or hotel, eh, that's their choice. Just as it's FTers choice to attend or not.

And I hate to point out the obvious (and I say this w/ affection), but if you're trading on 'your' reputation to host something of the magnitude of the seminar dos, you might want to keep your day job ;) :p :D

Thanks for bring up the issue for our attention. I'm sure it will be interesting to garner FTers thoughts, & think of the ramifications pro & con as TB members.

Cheers.

ElmhurstNick/MP may be onto something: want to have a Do where everyone pays their share of what they use, do it in CBuzz. Want to have a commercial venture (on a profit or non-profit basis), create a separate forum for that.

Ok, I have no problem with that and I think I can speak for Ingy as well.

Star Mega DO = everyone pays their share.
FT University = everyone pays their share, but sponsors pick up some of the tab.
FT Awards = everyone pays a small amount, sponsors pick up most of the tab. And PS! Flyertalk is a sponsor.....

And BTW, none of the speakers get paid. Yes, they get comped rooms at the hotel and comped plane tickets. But its not paid for by the participants, it's paid for by the sponsors.

You know what? A DO can be a lot more than 20 FTers getting together over dinner and arguing over who gets the miles when the check comes. Being the first group in the WORLD to get inside the 787, is pretty friggin cool. And I think I speak for the majority that the community WANTS stuff like this. And I have the booking numbers and also a boatload of sincere thank you notes from hundreds of members who had the time of their lives to back this up.

Sharon, you seem to have missed an implied 'if' at the beginning of this sentence:

"TB wants to allow this stuff, count on my doing it!"

:)

And you're welcome. Resolving sticky issues like this is why you guys get paid the big bucks! ^

I think reasonable people all understand that to invite an unknown number of people to come, to set space and food requirements for the hotel without a solid RSVP, and then to say at the end, "hey, the bill is $3500, how do we want to split this..." anybody that would assume that this is a logical way to do things is a bit misguided. It's fine for 12 members having lunch and the bill is $107 and the big decisions are whether to round it up to $120, and who's putting it on their credit card.

There are many FT social events where you don't get a seat without paying up front - expensive dinners and sporting events come to mind. Nobody bats an eye other than those trying to scam a free ride. But full disclosure always helps prevent misunderstanding, whether it's that some people are getting their hotel room comped, or that I was asking $37 via paypal for a $25 baseball ticket because of fees from Ticketmaster, and that if I didn't have their payment 14 days before the event I was putting their tickets on ebay.

Where this starts to get murky, and thus a reasonable topic to discuss, is that the industry and the internet has evolved such that actually being profitable is not unfeasible. Can a FT member profit from FT? Do we like this as a community? We all seem to agree that it's ok for Randy, and I'm fiercely capitalistic and am fine even if you told me that the organizers of FTUniversity were making a profit either directly or through building relationships with sponsors to lead to downstream revenue opportunities - as long as they're disclosed. With Randy, it's always been a given.

But I suspect that some of the more altruistic on FT may not share my point of view.

....
FT University = everyone pays their share, but sponsors pick up some of the tab.
FT Awards = everyone pays a small amount, sponsors pick up most of the tab. And PS! Flyertalk is a sponsor.....


Like ElmhurstNick, my head also hurts.

When reading the above, I automatically assume FT is FlyerTalk. But, after further reading, those two: FT University and FT Awards are actually NOT FlyerTalk and to my knowledge, have nothing to do with FlyerTalk. They are Frequent Travelers University and Frequent Travelers Awards. In order not to confuse the public, I urge you please spell it out or if you must use the 'acronymn', please at least place a space in between to separate the letters. FlyerTalk is one word, FT, Frequent Travellers are two words, therefore F <space> T. Thank you.

You know what? A DO can be a lot more than 20 FTers getting together over dinner and arguing over who gets the miles when the check comes....

Again, do you mean FlyerTalkers or Frequent Travelers?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16024703-post105.html

What she said.

Ultimately the posting of these threads is CBuzz is a matter for the Moderators in that forum. In the absence of a specific rule allowing or prohibiting these posts then the Senior Mods can step in and interpret the rules.

Do these events add value to Flyertalk? - in my book they do and I thank the organisers that take the time to put them on. If people don't like the commercials they can simply avoid attending.

Can a FT member profit from FT?

I raised that very topic here last June in a roundabout way:
Is it appropriate to charge an administrative fee for FT events? (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1091196-appropriate-charge-administrative-fee-ft-events.html)

Most that responded on that thread indicated any excess funds would be sent to charitable activities and not go into the organizers pocket. You might want to take a look at it. I raised the topic when a potential $750 of admin fees was being discussed for OzFest in a different forum.

At least four current TalkBoard members did post in it (SkiAdcock, Markie, Spiff, bhatnasx) as well as the Community Director (then a senior mod):

I think what might be a sticking point in this thread is that administration fee has never been defined. I initially assumed it to be one that covers expenses for the event. There seems to be other interpretations, though. So let me state at a high level my own beliefs:


Should a Do Organizer be entitled to profit from running an event? No, absolutely not.
Should a Do organizer be free to structure fees for an event so that s/he breaks even? Yes
Should a Do organizer be free to self fund expenses? Yes, it is his/her choice.


There are a lot of ways to organize an event. We have a number of active Do organizers sharing experiences and approaches in this thread. A lot of us have learned from personal experience to mitigate the financial downside of organization. Different people will have different ideas about how that can be done, and it is great to share them. Larger events bring greater financial risk. It is essential that those who graciously step up and host learn from others how to do so so that they do not face losing a substantial sum.

Spiff had indicated in his post the TalkBoard was looking at creating some guidelines.


On a slightly tangentially related note, we (TalkBoard) are looking at putting together an advisory guide/FAQ for do organization, as this item came up in our chat about a week ago.

Ultimately the posting of these threads is CBuzz is a matter for the Moderators in that forum. In the absence of a specific rule allowing or prohibiting these posts then the Senior Mods can step in and interpret the rules.

Do these events add value to Flyertalk? - in my book they do and I thank the organisers that take the time to put them on. If people don't like the commercials they can simply avoid attending.
As a moderator in that forum, I can say we've reviewed those thread in light of the one complaint we've received and our decision to allow those threads to stand remains.

If you have any issues with threads in a particular forum, then the appropriate way to raise concerns about them is to speak directly to the moderators. If you are unhappy with the moderators' decision - having spoken to them about it - then the next stage is to talk to Carol.

As a moderator in that forum, I can say we've reviewed those thread in light of the one complaint we've received and our decision to allow those threads to stand remains.

If you have any issues with threads in a particular forum, then the appropriate way to raise concerns about them is to speak directly to the moderators. If you are unhappy with the moderators' decision - having spoken to them about it - then the next stage is to talk to Carol.
To be clear to all, *I* was not that one complaint. And I am not talking about moderation, moderators or anything related here.

I'm suggesting either an alteration to the TOS or the creation of a separate forum for commercial ventures that are not done in the original Do spirit of all pay their own share.

I applaud the initiative of those that are out seeking sponsorships and using them to underwrite their events and then using part of those sponsorships and/or registration fees to fly in their friends. Very clever! Just as I applaud the initiative of using room blocks to get rooms comped for yourself and your friends.

But imho those are not in the spirit of a community Do. Those are something else. So they either need their own forum or they need to be allowed for in the TOS.

Question: would marketing, organization and registration for my seminar 'How to get free travel, lodging and advertising for you and your friends by putting on Frequent Flyer seminars' currently be allowed to stand in the CBuzz forum?

Where and how would you draw the line?

Obviously travel providers discussed in their own forums on FT sponsor stuff. Several airlines or hotel chains come to mind.

What if a FT member owns an Audi dealership, and figures out that if he throws a FT party at the dealership he can write off the food as a business expense? What if the same member offers to pick people up for a FT community dinner at the train station in a shiny new A8 from the dealership?

How many ratholes and how many unintended consequences do you want TB to chase down? And "all of them" is not a reasonable answer in my humble opinion.

Obviously travel providers discussed in their own forums on FT sponsor stuff. Several airlines or hotel chains come to mind.

What if a FT member owns an Audi dealership, and figures out that if he throws a FT party at the dealership he can write off the food as a business expense? What if the same member offers to pick people up for a FT community dinner at the train station in a shiny new A8 from the dealership?

How many ratholes and how many unintended consequences do you want TB to chase down? And "all of them" is not a reasonable answer in my humble opinion.

Are you asking me? Because that's the same question I am asking. :)

The TOS seems pretty clear: FlyerTalk is not a marketplace and nothing is to be offered for sale or conditioned on an exchange of money or barter.

That zero tolerance policy seems makes it pretty clear that the threads in the OP are not TOS worthy as they are selling attendance at a seminar for cash money plus the promise to book hotel through the event organizer. So the question is: if those events are allowed in spite of the TOS, where does it end?

If the answer (as Markie implies) is 'whenever the CBuzz moderators capriciously decide it does,' well, that's pretty capricious and imho places an unfair burden on those moderators to make the call as to what should be allowed and what should not.

We had a very similar problem with the FTCares process of allowing some charitable plea threads on FT but disallowing others. It's sticky mess once you start down the slippery slope.

Better that the TB/CD think about it now rather than after a mod has disallowed a similar commercial venture and IB potentially ends up in a legal situation over it.

I've been looking for something worthy of my 200th post...

I think the point kokonutz is trying to make here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that there is a benefit received by sponsorships. That benefit can be divyed up in three ways: equally across all attendees (e.g., reducing the participation cost of a meal) or allocated to individuals (e.g., comped rooms or airfare) or profit (e.g., personal gain or charitable contribution).

And extending his thought one step further, the original spirit of a DO was equitable distribution of the costs. So if sponsorships are now SOP, I think he's stating the benefit should be equitably distributed as well. Interpreting things this way, then the all benefits of sponsorship should be shared by all in attendance and not a select few with some connection to the organizers.

I personally have no problem with some benefit set aside for the organizers themselves and for speakers, who are assumed to be attending by invitation of the organizers. If the sponsors are signing up because of the expected attendees, I think the attendees should see appropriate benefit. For example, we get to see the Super Bowl for free (benefit) in exchange for companies (sponsors) advertizing their wares.

I'm too new to FT to comment on the reasonableness of DOs being commercial ventures and who receives any net gains.

As a moderator in that forum, I can say we've reviewed those thread in light of the one complaint we've received and our decision to allow those threads to stand remains.

If you have any issues with threads in a particular forum, then the appropriate way to raise concerns about them is to speak directly to the moderators. If you are unhappy with the moderators' decision - having spoken to them about it - then the next stage is to talk to Carol.

Where's the like button?? ;):D

It looks like this has been up before (thanks tom911!) and that everyone agrees.

I don't think some FTers should be asked to underwrite the travel, lodging and booze for other FTers. @:-)
As a speaker at several FT Dos, this conversation makes me wonder if my efforts are appreciated.
Not only should I give of my time and knowledge in person to the Flyertalk community with 0 financial gain, but it is also wrong if I don't have to pay for my transportation/hotel/food?
(Not my idea for my food/transportation/hotel to be comped, but the gesture is must appreciated when offered.)
And BTW, none of the speakers get paid.
Isn't that what matters?

The idea that it is not appropriate for valued speakers to have their expenses paid could threaten the generosity of future speakers freely giving of their time and knowledge. Are speakers valued and does Flyertalk want them to feel valued?
When does a 'Do' become a commercial venture?

I thought the answer was: When the organizers or speakers gain financially from the event.

Lack of loss ≠ gain/profit

Am I wrong?

In my view, these teaching Dos serve the FT community, similar to how moderators and Talkboard serves the FT community.

My understanding is that Randy paid for moderator dinners - not the moderators themselves.
Does that mean they financially gained from their service to FT?

My understanding is that Randy paid for moderator dinners - not the moderators themselves.

I believe -- and can certainly be corrected if wrong -- that he also paid for the TalkBoard lunch in PHX a few years ago.

And, at that time, it was indeed Randy who paid for the meal for his volunteer staff and volunteer advisors.

But since the sale of FT, it was not, to be precise, Randy who has paid for the Moderator dinner(s), but Internet Brands.

And now Randy works for a business competitors website with short and long-term business plans, no doubt.

Does that mean they financially gained from their service to FT?

No.

I thought the answer was: When the organizers or speakers gain financially from the event. Lack of loss ≠ gain/profit

It would be nearsighted, imo, to understand "profit" in a too-narrow, event-specific sense - at least in certain cases. One's business plan may, for example, plan for short-term losses, given the long-term rewards of such, in the interest of long-term profits

As a speaker at several FT Dos, this conversation makes me wonder if my efforts are appreciated.
Not only should I give of my time and knowledge in person to the Flyertalk community with 0 financial gain, but it is also wrong if I don't have to pay for my transportation/hotel/food?
(Not my idea for my food/transportation/hotel to be comped, but the gesture is must appreciated when offered.)

Isn't that what matters?

The idea that it is not appropriate for valued speakers to have their expenses paid could threaten the generosity of future speakers freely giving of their time and knowledge. Are speakers valued and does Flyertalk want them to feel valued?

I thought the answer was: When the organizers or speakers gain financially from the event.

Lack of loss ≠ gain/profit

Am I wrong?

In my view, these teaching Dos serve the FT community, similar to how moderators and Talkboard serves the FT community.

My understanding is that Randy paid for moderator dinners - not the moderators themselves.
Does that mean they financially gained from their service to FT?

Hi, wanaflyforless. Nice to meet you.

I don't know/remember you so don't presume to know whether your efforts are worthy of appreciation or not.

I know that I don't much recognize your handle from the forums I frequent. I do understand that you are quite a mileage runner. Good for you.

But I will say this: there is certainly no need to speak at a commercial seminar in order to share your wisdom and knowledge with the community. In fact, this very forum was created so we can ALL share our wisdom and knowledge without expections of being compensated or having our travel underwritten to do so.

And if you want to attend a 'real' Do on your own dime and share your wisdom and knowledge with other FTers, awesome. That's what Dos are all about!!!!

But expecting to trade your travel and lodging for your expertise is, to me, not in the spirit of community that is FlyerTalk.

I'm sure there are many here less qualified than you to speak on the subject of maximizing miles. There are also many more qualified. Giving AND taking information on an equal footing is the true spirit of FlyerTalk, imho.

No.


Hang on a second. I was a moderator from 2006 till early 2011. For every single moderator meeting, moderators were paid cash to attend and also Randy treated everyone to a very nice dinner. That's more economical gain than any speakers at both the Chicago DO and FT University will every gain. For the FT University, the Sheraton has comped us some rooms and United is flying the speakers for free (they don't even earn miles).

And the vast majority of people would not av a problem with either.

I totally understand where wanaflyforless is coming from. You try to do something nice for the community free of charge and this is the thanks you get.

Rest assured, there's only a very small handful of people that would make a stink about something like this, the community wants it and salutes your efforts.

But expecting to trade your travel and lodging for your expertise is, to me, not in the spirit of community that is FlyerTalk.
I am not trading; I am giving.

The value I receive from teaching at FT Dos is primarily the satisfaction of knowing I have helped other FTers.

The first few times I taught I paid my own airfare/hotel/food.

I would never consider the airfare/hotel/food to be worth my time. On the contrary, I do not see those things as anything I have gained; they are of 0 value to me as I would not be there (would not need that transportation/hotel) if I had not been invited to speak.

All voices having equal time to speak does not lead to the most wisdom/knowledge changing hands.

There are also many more qualified [to speak on the subject of maximizing miles].
PLEASE support any FT effort that would allow me to hear these people speak so I can learn from them!

I hope I will be permitted to pay for their transportation/lodging to help them know their generosity is appreciated.

Hi, wanaflyforless. Nice to meet you.

I don't know/remember you so don't presume to know whether your efforts are worthy of appreciation or not.

I know that I don't much recognize your handle from the forums I frequent. I do understand that you are quite a mileage runner. Good for you.

But I will say this: there is certainly no need to speak at a commercial seminar in order to share your wisdom and knowledge with the community. In fact, this very forum was created so we can ALL share our wisdom and knowledge without expections of being compensated or having our travel underwritten to do so.

And if you want to attend a 'real' Do on your own dime and share your wisdom and knowledge with other FTers, awesome. That's what Dos are all about!!!!

But expecting to trade your travel and lodging for your expertise is, to me, not in the spirit of community that is FlyerTalk.

I'm sure there are many here less qualified than you to speak on the subject of maximizing miles. There are also many more qualified. Giving AND taking information on an equal footing is the true spirit of FlyerTalk, imho.

Gimme me a break.. Is it so hard to understand that no one has any economical gain from this? Is it so hard to understand that face to face interaction and the social aspect of this is attractive to Flyertalkers?

Do you really think the Chicago DO would will up with 500+ people again if it wasn't worth it for FTers?

That you are belittling organizers of these DOs and all the effort it takes to put them together is pretty low. The community strongly disagrees with you what a real DO is.

...moderators were paid cash to attend

"Paid cash" is a little misleading. Moderators were given a stipend to help defray their travel costs. Which was very helpful indeed. And just to note: before the sale of FT to IB the receipts that moderators signed were from the HOM; after, they were from IB.

and also Randy treated everyone to a very nice dinner.

Indeed, Randy did so before the sale to IB. After the sale, Randy hosted but IB paid.

"Paid cash" is a little misleading. Moderators were given a stipend to help defray their travel costs.


And myself and 99,999% of our members have no problem with that, just in the same way that 99,999% of our members have no problem with speakers getting free, sponsored airplane tickets and hotel rooms.

...For the FT University....

Oddly enough, when I see "FT" I think "FlyerTalk."

As do "99,999% of our members" ;)

Oddly enough, when I see "FT" I think "FlyerTalk."

Hmmm.... ;)

I hear you, loud and clear. But face it, us Flyertalkers are just a very small group of travelers, the frequent users can't be more than 10K people

The FT Awards name will be marketed to over 50 million members of loyalty programs throughout the month of March, most of them have never heard of Flyertalk.

The logo and the website states the full name. http://www.ftuniversity.com/ To write The Frequent Traveler University every single time, gets a little old.

The value I receive from teaching at FT Dos is primarily the satisfaction of knowing I have helped other FTers.

The first few times I taught I paid my own airfare/hotel/food.

I would never consider the airfare/hotel/food to be worth my time. On the contrary, I do not see those things as anything I have gained; they are of 0 value to me as I would not be there (would not need that transportation/hotel) if I had not been invited to speak.

All voices having equal time to speak does not lead to the most wisdom/knowledge changing hands.

Honestly, if you have so much great information to share, why not simply post it on FlyerTalk. @:-) No need to travel on your dime or anyone else's!

Why make me pay money to underwrite your attending a seminar to have you share your wisdom? For the pleasure of your company?

Gimme me a break.. Is it so hard to understand that no one has any economical gain from this? Is it so hard to understand that face to face interaction and the social aspect of this is attractive to Flyertalkers?

That you are belittling organizers of these DOs and all the effort it takes to put them together is pretty low. The community strongly disagrees with you what a real DO is. Do they?

That's what I am asking the TB, as the community's representative.

Because what *I* see has gone beyond magnanimous posters getting together to share information in a spirit of community. What I see is a cottage industry of seminars and websites springing up to take information that is available for free from FlyerTalk posters, package that up and resell it back to the posters for a fee.

Maybe that's what FlyerTalk has become. I like to think not. But that's what I see.

What I see is a cottage industry of seminars and websites springing up to take information that is available for free from FlyerTalk posters, package that up and resell it back to the posters for a fee.

Maybe that's what FlyerTalk has become. I like to think not. But that's what I see.

I guess you missed what i wrote... Or not:confused:


And then we take the initiative to get people together to listen to some smart guys who know a hell of a lot more about miles and points than I do and charge 49 dollars to cover lunch, breakfast and drinks. Guess what, a lunch, breakfast, coffee, cookies and drinks cost money. In fact, 68 bucks per person, but thanks to sponsors, we were able to get the price down to 49.


So a bunch of guys get together and put up a cool thing without getting paid a dime and makes sure that companies/sponsors knock the price down so you can have a bunch of fun, drinks, meals and conference room under cost and that's a bad thing?

Yeah, it's horrible what Flyetalk has turned in to.:rolleyes:

I just reread the thread that Tom linked to, and would encourage everyone to read it in its entirety (takes less than 5 minutes).

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1091196-appropriate-charge-administrative-fee-ft-events.html

I'd say the majority of those posting didn't have a problem w/ administrative fees if they are disclosed up front & for what purpose, and pretty much took sandiego1K's top down view.

A large # didn't think it was a TB issue either for that matter.

I also found myself agreeing with what I said last year in that thread :D

Last year's ORD Seminar was run by an all volunteer group and will be again. The logistics (and yes, cost) in organizing a 2-day seminar for 450 people & signing legal contracts - which is quite frankly a lot different than FTers sitting around a bar or restaurant informally chatting miles & points - resulted in an admin fee. Any additional funds after costs were covered were donated to charity, not kept by the organizers. The same this year, even if the admin fee is slightly larger. The Frequent Traveler University (FTU) is being run by the Frequent Traveler Educational Foundation (FTET), a non-profit organization. Everything is basically disclosed up front (otherwise how did you know that speakers might get their air & hotel covered ;).

FTers have the choice to attend or not, based on what the seminar do is about, the perceived value, etc. If they're not interested or don't see the value they won't. If they attend & it's not what they thought, they won't attend if it's held again. Given that 106 FTers signed up yesterday for the ORD Sem Do and a # were folk who attended last year, presumably they find value. And the first post details what the admin fee is covering. Nothing's been hidden that I can tell.

I guess I just don't see a rash of for profit ventures hitting FT CB all of a sudden. Shrug.

Cheers.

Honestly, if you have so much great information to share, why not simply post it on FlyerTalk. @:-) No need to travel on your dime or anyone else's!

- To a small extent, I have done so in years past (especially in forums like milesbuzz), and the posts got buried and forgotten (while the same questions get asked in new threads every year). Although mostly I have chosen not to (reasons for not doing so differ depending on topic).

- Based on feedback from my audience, engaged FTers learned many things from me they did not learn on Flyertalk, even though they read Flyertalk all the time. Are the attendees lying to me just to make me feel good?

- Perhaps in person interaction can aid the transfer of wisdom/knowledge more efficiently than reading Flyertalk forums.

Here we go AGAIN.

If you don't like the charges for a DO, don't attend. Simple.

Plenty of people find the events highly valuable, and the speakers highly valuable too. That's why over 500 people attend the Chicago Seminar DO. And guess what? In 2009 and 2010 it cost me 1/6th of the average annual salary in New Zealand to attend Star Mega DO. Hell, I don't even eat stuff at the dinners, and I don't drink. Know why I paid? Because it was fun, and the company of the other FTers was valuable to me. If that's not valuable to you, don't freakin' come to the DO or event.

Before responding to some of the particulars I wanted to make very clear, because I have been a speaker at the Chicago Seminar DO, because I have been asked to - and agreed to - speak there again. And because I am going to speak at Frequent Traveler University:

I have never made a dime off of any of these efforts.

They are 100% for the education and benefit of the frequent flyering community. I have some experiences and knowledge and I am happy to dedicate a weekend or three to shae them with folks.

And noen of the organizers of these events have ever made a dime on them, either.

The 'fees' for attending are no different than when people go to other DOs and put up cash upfront for meals or other activities, so that the volunteer organizers don't get stiffed.

And in the case of these events, tommy777 and ingy have gone out of their way to find sponsors so that the participants aren't even picking up all of the costs.

Now, in the interests of full disclosure I will also say that ingy picked up two nights of hotel for me last year at the Holiday Inn Elk Grove Village (I don't recommend it for your next romantic getaway or spa retreat, by the way).

I agreed to speak at the event, and at the time it wasn't obvious that he'd be picking up hotel in fact when he invited me he said he didn't know if he could but he hoped to. That's cool, Ibought plane tickets (which were never offered to be reimbursed, which I didn't ask to have reimbursed), and I showed up and ingy picked up the room charge.

I did order a late night burger because the place is pretty remote and isolated and talking to other frequent flyers late into the night I missed all other dinner opportunities. Guess what? I paid for my own burger.

No one makes any money off of these things. They're hosted to share something and give something back to a community of frequent flyers.

And y'know what? koko, you know this already...

Some folks had concerns about the "FT" acronymn in FT University, obscure2k cross-posted something from OMNI:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16024703-post105.html

Which I had already extensively answered.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16025735-post107.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16025962-post111.html

Several of the folks in this thread who repeated concerns know better, and certainly know me better.

We came up with "Frequent Traveler Awards" as descriptive of what we were trying to do. FT is a natural acronymn for that, sure, but wasn't the reason for the name nad provides no benefit at all to the event (most of the people learning about the awards and voting have never heard of Flyertalk, eg the millions of members of Marriott.. and American... and Priority Club.. and Delta who are learning about the awards in emails sent to them by the programs.).

Then Frequent Traveler University was added on by the folks organizing the Frequent Traveler Awards. The Frequent Traveler name was a natural extension and the acronymn a coincidence. Truly.

Yeah, it's horrible what Flyetalk has turned in to.:rolleyes:Tommy,

Koko speaks for himself and the voice of dissension here by no means reflects the views of FlyerTalk and the membership at large. I am 100% confident of that.

Having organised only one do (a mere 40 covers), I doff my hat to all event organisers especially yourself and ingy who through dedication and brute effort have managed to deliver FT events unparalleled in size and complexity.

I am clueless as to exactly what has motivated this line of discussion and to be honest I don't care much for it. Having expressed my view on the subject I will withdraw now to the comfort of the BA forum.

I applaud the initiative of those that are out seeking sponsorships and using them to underwrite their events and then using part of those sponsorships and/or registration fees to fly in their friends. Very clever!

Now this is really quite snarky, and even borderline offensive. Gee, what a junket!

Last year I gave 3 talks at the Chicago Seminar DO. I paid my own airfare to get there. IIn the end ingy picked up two hotels nights for me.

At the Holiday Inn Elk Grove Village.

It's a Holiday Inn in an office park surrounded by almost nothing. Not a vacation, although there was a Starbucks across the freeway.

I flew out there so I could help 500 other frequent travelers learn about booking awards, taking advantage of error fares, and maximizing their benefits in Star Alliance.

And Frequent Traveler University? It's at the gorgeous Sheraton LGA. In Flushing.

Anyone 'concerned with precedent' fine. But start off by saying thank you because I haven't seen many of the haters doing a lot to put on events for large numbers of frequent flyers, which attendance suggests they value, and at no personal benefit to themselves.

And truth be told these events aren't any different from DOs that have evolved. The larger events, not "hey lets meet for drinks at X bar with a happy hour special" but the major events that are days-long, they regularly require upfront payment. Or even dinners -- put your money on the table. Because food costs money.

Not a dime is going into anyone's pockets from Frequent Traveler University. To the best of my knowledge, I'm pretty sure not a dime goes into anyone's pocket for the Chicago Seminar DO either. It's all about the frequent traveler and a way of giving back.

And I'd suggest this: at the same time expressing concerns about rules and procedures, think about the consequences of those rules and how to replace the useful events for the community that those rules and concerns wold take away.

If folks don't want me to spend my time traveling to Flushing, New York and Elk Grove Village, IL fine, I won't, I have plenty of other things I can do with my weekends. Like travel to fun places or doing things that actually do bring in some income.

Tommy,

Koko speaks for himself and the voice of dissension here by no means reflects the views of FlyerTalk and the membership at large. I am 100% confident of that.

Having organised only one do (a mere 40 covers), I doff my hat to all event organisers especially yourself and ingy who through dedication and brute effort have managed to deliver FT events unparalleled in size and complexity.

I am clueless as to exactly what has motivated this line of discussion and to be honest I don't care much for it. Having expressed my view on the subject I will withdraw now to the comfort of the BA forum.

The fact that "this line of discussion" exists may be the exact reason for the new competition.

It sure makes it more difficult to continue volunteering the time.

If folks don't want me to spend my time traveling to Flushing, New York and Elk Grove Village, IL fine, I won't, I have plenty of other things I can do with my weekends. Like travel to fun places or doing things that actually do bring in some income.

The vast majority of us greatly appreciate your time and efforts, gleff, and I hope this latest round of (insert words I'm not allowed to say on here) won't put you off from doing so again!

koko, why don't you actually come along to one of these events so you can compile some more evidence of the absolute misery and despair all the participants experience after having been so masterfully ripped off?

koko, why don't you actually come along to one of these events so you can compile some more evidence of the absolute misery and despair all the participants experience after having been so masterfully ripped off?

Because it is so much easier to stir the pot, than make the soup. I've offered to pay his registration, but then again he/she may have to eat some humble pie after seeing what goes on, and the number of people involved giving back without expecting a thing in return?

Maybe koko is against giving more than his/her two cents worth.

kokonutz - I will buy you a United ticket (my personal expense) to/from the Chicago Seminar Do II if you would like to attend.

I think you would enjoy the event and learn some new things related to travel and programs. I offer this because I value your contributions elsewhere on Flyertalk and because I think you attending would be both good for you and for the Flyertalk community (a community I care a lot about).

No strings attached; all I asked is that if you decide to attend, I would like to pay for your roundtrip airfare. Just PM me if you would like to take me up on this offer so I can buy your ticket. :)

wanaflyforless, can I have one too? :D

But yes - I just want to clarify. My anger towards this topic is not towards you personally kokonutz, as wanaflyforless correctly points out you have made many, many valuable contributions to this community and I appreciate that and thank you for it.

However on this subject, regardless of who brings it up (as it does pop up relatively frequently), I get enormously annoyed. People spend countless hours and dollars to put together fantastic events for our community and then get ridiculed for it. It's just not fair, and soon they're not going to want to do it anymore.

Guys, I totally appreciate all the offers to buy me off, I really do! ;)

But I don't have an axe to grind here, or need to gain anything. I'm past mileage runs and care more about good (hopefully upgradable!) Z fares than killing myself to make 1k (although I've never not!). All I care about is this community. This wonderful, amazing community where people give their knowledge not to get free tickets or hotel rooms or to build brands or pump websites or be the 'expert,' but because they love to travel and love their very frequent flyer program and love to both talk and listen to their peers talk about programs.

Where we try to help each other not because we are the 'expert' who needs to be paid or otherwise compensated, but because we have something to share, with the hope if not expectation that it will be paid forward. Not in terms of a free flight or comped hotel rooms, but in terms of learning something we didn't already know.

Kinda like, you know, the very reason we click on FT...sorry...FLYERTALK...every day.

I wish the entrepreneurs well. But that's not FlyerTalk to me.

Maybe I'm an anachronism. If so, them I'm TOTALLY good with that! ^

I wish the entrepreneurs well. But that's not FlyerTalk to me.

Please come to the Chicago Seminar Do II so that you can experience the Flyertalk community - perhaps an aspect of this wonderful community you have not associated with. Don't stand off in the corner; join us! :)

Please come to the Chicago Seminar Do II so that you can witness how our event has nothing to do with desire "to build brands or pump websites or be the 'expert'" but rather learn from each other in an organized format.

Please come to the Chicago Seminar Do II so that you can become a better more informed member of "this wonderful, amazing community where people give their knowledge" without profit.

Please stop lying to yourself about the nonexistent motivation "of a free flight or comped hotel rooms" and participate in your FlyerTalk community at the Chicago Seminar Do II "learning something we didn't already know."
(Perhaps you will find others who share your love of UA Z fares and can share and learn with them.)

Please come to the Chicago Seminar Do II so that you can experience the Flyertalk community - perhaps an aspect of this wonderful community you have not associated with. Don't stand off in the corner; join us! :)

Please come to the Chicago Seminar Do II so that you can witness how our event has nothing to do with desire "to build brands or pump websites or be the 'expert'" but rather learn from each other in an organized format.

Please come to the Chicago Seminar Do II so that you can become a better more informed member of "this wonderful, amazing community where people give their knowledge" without profit.

Please stop lying to yourself about the nonexistent motivation "of a free flight or comped hotel rooms" and participate in your FlyerTalk community at the Chicago Seminar Do II "learning something we didn't already know."
(Perhaps you will find others who share your love of UA Z fares and can share and learn with them.)

I appreciate your enthusiasm. I really do. And maybe you don't have a financial stake in MilePoint like others here do. In that case I applaud your altruism.

But I'm simply not willing to pay for what is already offered, out of a mutual sense of altruism, here for free. No matter how well packaged. Particularly, and no offense as you seem like a decent dude, not when part of my registration fee goes to underwrite your travel and lodging.

And, at the end of the day, no amount of altruism denies the fact that you guys are selling seats at seminars for a fee. Advertising for which the TOS currently forbids...something that the TB needs to think hard about whether they want to truly allow or not.

And, at the end of the day, no amount of altruism denies the fact that you guys are selling seats at seminars for a fee. Advertising for which the TOS currently forbids...something that the TB needs to think hard about whether they want to truly allow or not.

Does the Talk Board enforce the Terms of Service? That's what all this comes down to. I don't think they have an enforcement arm, and we know they can't tell the moderators what to do. What are you expecting them to do?

Why not PM the Community Director and engage in a discussion with her?

The vast majority of us greatly appreciate your time and efforts, gleff, and I hope this latest round of (insert words I'm not allowed to say on here) won't put you off from doing so again!

I agree! Don't listen to the nay sayers. We actually can't wait to see you guys and hear what you have to say. It is pretty amazing how one rotting grape can spoil the whole bunch! But since I am only a newbie, I figure most FT's *(flyer talkers) old guards don't want my opinion.

Your opinion is just as valuable as mine. I wish we had more newer posters make appearances on the Talk Board forum as we do get the same old-timers over and over again (me being one of those). We need some other viewpoints here. I don't think most FTers even know this forum exists.

koko you clearly have an axe to grind and I don't get it.

Frequent Traveler University, at the Sheraton LGA, costs $49. That covers the room, a/v, breakfast, lunch and participants get cocktails the night before too. As tommy777 already said, the $49 doesn't cover it, it covers about 2/3rds of the cost.

Folks attending DOs are often asked to pay in advance for the cost of their participation, so that the organizers don't get stuck.

Nobody makes a dime off of it.

I guess your beef is that both the Frequent Traveler University and Chicago Seminar DO are helping cover travel expense for speakers?

* I agreed to speak at the Chicago Seminar DO last year thinking none of my epxenses would be covered. I paid my airfare and incidentals. I was pleasantly surprised that they picked up my two nights at the Holiday Inn Elk Grove Village. I would have spoken even if they didn't.

* There's no cost to Frequent Traveler University for my presence there, I'm going to be in New York anyway.

But this isn't even a new phenomenon for Flyertalk.

When I spoke 3 or 4 years ago at the Ann Arbor Arts Fair DO, we all went to dinner after. I wanted to pick up the check for everyone's dinner (hey, I had a credit card that earned bonus point for restaurnat spend!) but they wouldn't let me and the 'event' picked up my dinner. Shocker!

If yo udon't like events with 'speakers' don't attend. But nobody is making a dime here, nobody is getting out nearly anything close to what they're putting in other than helping frequent flyers.

Guys, and gleff in particular, my point here is pretty simple. SkiAdcock is going to yell at me for saying the same thing over and over, but here goes:

IMHO at a Do information should be shared not in a 'teaching' environment, rather it should be shared in a spirit of give and take. Like gifts that are exchanged rather than intelligence that is purchased. And it's currently against to TOS to use FT to sell things including, one presumes, seminar seats There is a line between sharing information and selling information. The seminar Do's, to me, pretty clearly cross that line. They are transactional: come to this 'Do,' pay a certain $ and in exchange you will get information (and food and booze).

But as I say, maybe I'm being anachronistic about it and about what Dos have evolved into and what they should be. So, to answer tom911's question, I am seeking from the TalkBoard clarification of the TOS...perhaps making an allowance for these quasi-commercial ventures under certain circumstances and in their own forum? Perhaps something else.

So please don't take my windmill tilting personally! I'm not motivated to ruin your free stays at crap hotels. I'm simply trying to preserve the integrity of FlyerTalk's commercial-free (other than the IB ads) community from what I see as creeping commercialism.

IMHO at a Do information should be shared not in a 'teaching' environment, rather it should be shared in a spirit of give and take.

If your objection is pedagogical then I admit I didn't get that earlier in this discussion at all.

And that does seem like a pretty anachronistic take on a DO. The Ann Arbor Arts Fair DO that Bikeguy has been generously organizing for years, that's not a DO then?

Even if your particular idiosyncratic take on what is and is not a DO were accepted for the sake of argument, I'm still not clear what in the TOS says that only a DO can be discussed here amongst frequent flyers?

There are plenty of other non-DO activities that are regularly posted and welcomed.

In fact, the description of the community forum is The official get-together page for the FlyerTalk community as well as topics related directly to the general membership of FlyerTalk.

So we could accept your strange take on what is and is not a DO, call it something else, and there still wouldn't be a problem discussing the event...

The most your suggestion would have relevance for then is that you could get the TalkBoard's take on whether the Chicago Seminar DO would have to change its name when posting in community to just the Chicago Seminar?? i.e. that it wouldn't be able to use the word DO, even though nothing in the TOS currently restricts the use of language in such a way. :confused:

Regardless, a pretty weak position IMHO that a DO cannot include one person getting up in front of a group to share their knowledge and experiences and take questions. :rolleyes:

Like gifts that are exchanged rather than intelligence that is purchased.

Again, all that is being purchased is

* meals -- that's included in just about any DO
* meeting space -- that's also regularly included, think admission to a park or museum as a group, or anything else. The venue cost is covered.
* Name badges -- supplies, whatnot. Again, this was discussed 9 months or so ago and it was pretty universally considered that it's perfectly appropriate for a DO organizer to ask DO participants to chip in towards the actual supply costs, etc. for the event.

That is ALL that is being charged for in the cases discussed in this thread.

I think SanDiego1K's articulation (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/14080514-post39.html), noted earlier in the thread by tom911, sums up a good way of thinking about this.

I think what might be a sticking point in this thread is that administration fee has never been defined. I initially assumed it to be one that covers expenses for the event. There seems to be other interpretations, though. So let me state at a high level my own beliefs:

Should a Do Organizer be entitled to profit from running an event? No, absolutely not.
Should a Do organizer be free to structure fees for an event so that s/he breaks even? Yes
Should a Do organizer be free to self fund expenses? Yes, it is his/her choice.

There are a lot of ways to organize an event. We have a number of active Do organizers sharing experiences and approaches in this thread. A lot of us have learned from personal experience to mitigate the financial downside of organization. Different people will have different ideas about how that can be done, and it is great to share them. Larger events bring greater financial risk. It is essential that those who graciously step up and host learn from others how to do so so that they do not face losing a substantial sum.

At least in the case of the Frequent Traveler University event, not even the actual cost of the event is being charged for. The event is more costly than what attendees are covering themselves. tommy777 went out and got sponsors to help with that. So did ingy.

And it's currently against to TOS to use FT to sell things including, one presumes, seminar seats There is a line between sharing information and selling information.

If you take your line of reasoning as articulated here, then the SIN DO and the London DOs and the OzFests are against the TOS.

There is no commercial product being sold here. No commercial gain being achieved.

Participants are being asked to chip in towards part of the actual costs of their participation.

You've got an axe to grind with particular event(s), admit it or not, but the arguments here don't hold water. Unless you want the TalkBoard to adopt a rule to the detriment of members of the community that says asking participants to cover costs of their participation is verboten and thus there won't be future events shared here.

Instead of, oh I dunno, as I suggested earlier.. saying thank you to those people putting in thousands of colunteer hours and giving up weekends to share things with the rest of the community?

So please don't take my windmill tilting personally! I'm not motivated to ruin your free stays at crap hotels.

It's hard to not 'take personally' when you throw out the next jab in the very next sentence! ;)

And it's anything but a free stay for me, by the way. Not only am I not getting paid, I'm already out a hundred thousand frequent flyer miles helping people get up to New York. I'm out of my own pocket not just my time effort and energy but my hard earned miles because I want to help others in the community, which you seem to have a problem with and you snarkily dismiss as my desire to get "free stays at crap hotels." :rolleyes:

I'm simply trying to preserve the integrity of FlyerTalk's commercial-free (other than the IB ads) community from what I see as creeping commercialism.

Due respect, koko, I fail to see how these 'arguments' are in any way about integrity. :(

All I can guess here, and I do apologize if I'm somehow wrong though I don't think that I am, is that you have a problem with the people involved in some events and you ascribe to them dark and sinister motives and that's the real issue here.

If you've got a problem with me that you don't want to discuss on-thread, and I've offered this before, you're more than welcome to shoot me a note as I'd be happy to discuss it with you. @:-)

gleff, I'm sorry you are taking this personally. It's not personal.

I have stated my motives many times and would be happy to state them to you offline as well: I'm simply trying to preserve the integrity of FlyerTalk's commercial-free (other than the IB ads) community from what I see as creeping commercialism.

I'm hoping the TB will draw a bright line and say 'here is how commercial a Do can get and still be marketed on FT,' no further.

Koko, your snarka and innuendo give away your motives ;) But I'd be happy to have such conversations offline, and indeed have invited them on more than one occasion. ^

There is nothing at all more commercial about the events you've identified in this thread than any other DOs that go on all the time. None of the organizers or participants benefit personally in any way from them, making a profit or coming out ahead financially through their involvement, other than helping fellow frequent flyers. It still mystifies me that you have a problem with htat. And as I've noted, I'm already down 100k miles myself in helping folks get to New York that weekend. So yeah, I guess I do take it personally. ;)

Koko, your snarka and innuendo give away your motives ;) But I'd be happy to have such conversations offline, and indeed have invited them on more than one occasion. ^

There is nothing at all more commercial about the events you've identified in this thread than any other DOs that go on all the time. None of the organizers or participants benefit personally in any way from them, making a profit or coming out ahead financially through their involvement, other than helping fellow frequent flyers. It still mystifies me that you have a problem with htat. And as I've noted, I'm already down 100k miles myself in helping folks get to New York that weekend. So yeah, I guess I do take it personally. ;)Again, this is not about you or these specific events, it's about where the line is. So put your TB President hat back on and let me walk you through my question to the TB: where IS the line?

You do not think it is crossed when a host uses reveue for the event to fly himself (assuming he is a speaker) and other speakers in for the event, or provide free 'registration' and lodging, right?

Hypothetically:

- How about if at the end of the event the 'excess money' not go to a charity, but to a foundation established and run by/controlled by the host or by another FlyerTalker?

- Would it be crossed if an organizer used some of the 'excess funds' to fly himself and his speakers in in first class rather than coach? And stay at the Ritz rather than the Holiday Inn Hoboken?

- How about if the host does not 'take a profit' but does charge his time at a 'break-even' scale against the revenue?

Finally, and critically, if the rule is not-for-profit events only, who is going to ensure that no one is taking a profit at the end of the day? If we are going to allow for these sorts of quasi-commercial Dos where it's more of a class than a party then how do we keep someone from throwing one and walking off with a tidy profit under the current rules?

I'm not saying anyone has done these things. I am not saying anyone is going to do these things.

I am saying that the possibiliby that someone COULD do these things under the currently vague rules should be contemplated before they are done rather than, God forbid, after they happen.

See what I am saying? It's not YOU or Tommy or Ingy. It's where the line is, and what the possible unintended conceqeunces of where the line is are.

Please re-read the title of this thread: What is a 'Do?' When does a 'Do' become a commercial venture?

The more I think about it, the more I think the situation calls for...wait for it...guidelines. ;) Guidelines far more specific than the general FAQ that Carol put forth.

So if these events are about freely sharing information, the speakers won't have any problem posting their powerpoint presentations, right? Or maybe the events should be videotaped and posted on FT.

I have never made a dime off of any of these efforts.


Where does the advertising revenue from your boarding area blog go?

Where does the advertising revenue from your boarding area blog go?

Will, I'm talking about the events I spend the weekend flying out to at my own expense, 'these events' wasn't a reference to my blog. And if you think I somehow come out ahead flying to an event convincing someone to read my blog and generating their clicks that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the economics of internet advertising.

I do receive some very modest checks from the advertising on my blog, which isn't at all on topic for a thread about DOs.

I've been blogging since 2002. I actually never received even a dime of ad revenue in the first five or six years at least. But I have managed to pick up a few hundred bucks here and there over time from writing it.

So if these events are about freely sharing information, the speakers won't have any problem posting their powerpoint presentations, right? Or maybe the events should be videotaped and posted on FT.

I suspect the problem there is that, like at all FT DOs, there are things shared between folks in person that never get posted online. That folks are comfortbale sharing in person that they woouldn't post. A lot of the 'grey area' stuff or things that they're concerned would get shut down if posted too prominently. Hence many past DOs have had an off-the-record policy and ingy's last year followed in that tradition. I don't know what the April event's policy is in that regard.

I suspect the problem there is that, like at all FT DOs, there are things shared between folks in person that never get posted online. That folks are comfortbale sharing in person that they woouldn't post. A lot of the 'grey area' stuff or things that they're concerned would get shut down if posted too prominently. Hence many past DOs have had an off-the-record policy and ingy's last year followed in that tradition. I don't know what the April event's policy is in that regard.

So people are paying for access to information.

Koko, earlier you said your concerns were pedagogical (teaching vs sharing or some such). That didn't work so you're on to different issues. :confused:

I am no longer TalkBoard President, and no longer a member of the TalkBoard and I wouldn't presume to put on such a hat.

Rather I know that the events you've referenced are not commercial in the least.

No one is making a dime off of them. And as I've shared, I'm out of my own pocket... not just my flight to the Chicago DO last October where I gave three talks but also for the upcoming April event where I've gone 100k miles in the hole.

This isn't just about 'not making money.' Dude, it's downright generous and you've yet to acknowledge that as you bash the efforts that some folks are undertaking on behalf of their fellow frequent flyers. Which I don't see the critics undertaking themselves. :rolleyes:

As far as whether it's ok for ingy or anyone else to cover the expense of their speakers out of funds they've managed to get sponsors to cough up, well I think the best way to handle that is allowing the members to decide.

The TOS it seems to me isn't implicated when the event isn't commercial, which is to say it isn't designed to make a profit. And I don't think the TalkBoard, moderators, or anyone else ought to be in the business of micro-managing the finances of anyone's DOs. Rather, constructively offer some best practices so that organizers don't get hosed with a leftover tab, that seems like a good idea. But nit-picking the details of an event that so many FTers value, what good in that?

Now, I paid my own out-of-pccket airfare to go to Chicago last year. I did get upgraded. Was that wrong because not all of the folks flying there received an upgrade? Do I give a care if ingy pays my hotel or airfare for Chicago this year? Hey, if he says he's got the sponsorship dollars and can do it, great, but I told him I was there last year without any of that and I'd be there again. And I do not expect Frequent Traveler University to pick up the tab for my flights to New York, I'm going to be there anyway.

But if we can get folks who might not otherwise be able to show up? (Remember, I'm out 100k points personally in this to help make that happen!) Then it seems like it ought to be at the discretion of the organizer.

What I do think is important -- and the relevant line morally if not from a TOS standpoint -- is that folks being asked to be to attend be able to ask what their money is going for.

Although if Rick or Tommy or anyone else can get a third party to pick up other costs, great, and those parties are disclosed in both cases. So I'm failing to see the problem here either.

Last year the Chicago Seminar DO gave away several thousand dollars to a bona fide charity. I recall that Tommy's StarMegaDO efforts raised many thousands of dollars for the Captain Jason Dahl Scholarship Fund.

- Would it be crossed if an organizer used some of the 'excess funds' to fly himself and his speakers in in first class rather than coach? And stay at the Ritz rather than the Holiday Inn Hoboken?

- How about if the host does not 'take a profit' but does charge his time at a 'break-even' scale against the revenue?

Is there any evidence that this has ever happened? That a DO organizer has taken community member funds and used them to fly in first and stay at the Ritz, or taken an honorarium for their speaking or organizing?

I am personally not aware of it, so I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing here?

Finally, and critically, if the rule is not-for-profit events only, who is going to ensure that no one is taking a profit at the end of the day? If we are going to allow for these sorts of quasi-commercial Dos where it's more of a class than a party then how do we keep someone from throwing one and walking off with a tidy profit under the current rules?
There is no absolute guarantee that none of your parade of horribles, that you are much more worried abot than I, could never come to pass.

But until we have an actual ripe controversy I would be much more concerned about the effect of coming up with rules that could stifle the creativity nad generosity of members in planning, organizing and participating in events than I would be worried about someone hypothetically making a buck off the service they provide to other members. @:-)

See what I am saying? It's not YOU or Tommy or Ingy. It's where the line is, and what the possible unintended conceqeunces of where the line is are.
And the unintended consequences of attempting to draw lines, of enforcing rigid rules rather than social normas, the latter of which is often best for governing interactions within a community.

And again, koko, for those folks who give their time and their personal resources to help improve the travel lives of others in the community -- since despite my request several times in this thread for you to say it, I will -- to those folks, thank you.

I suspect the problem there is that, like at all FT DOs, there are things shared between folks in person that never get posted online. That folks are comfortbale sharing in person that they woouldn't post. A lot of the 'grey area' stuff or things that they're concerned would get shut down if posted too prominently. Hence many past DOs have had an off-the-record policy and ingy's last year followed in that tradition. I don't know what the April event's policy is in that regard.

So people are paying for access to information.

At every single DO that someone flies to or buys dinner at, potentially yes, because some members will share some information in person with some people that they will not post online.

Though I had some concerns last year at the Chicago Seminar DO, that I might say something extemporaneously that I wouldn't ever post online, and so I preferred not to be recorded. With a post I get to write it out, re-read it, and even close out of the post if I think better of it. Speaking live I have no such opportunity.

But I don't think I said anything at that event that I haven't ever posted, or if I hadn't posted it up until that time that I didn't post subsequently.

Still, there is no way around it that flying to an event if you aren't local, joining in for a meal, and getting some face-to-face will often lead to more or different information sharing than will happen online. So will buying a beer (or three or six) grease the tongue and generate more information.

I don't think anyone is proposing a standard that everything that's said in person at a gathering must also be posted? That would have a pretty chilling effect on community, on sharing, and just cause events not to be posted here for fear of running afoul of rules when in fact people do want to share some thing in person that they won't share in writing.

At every single DO that someone flies to or buys dinner at, potentially yes, because some members will share some information in person with some people that they will not post online.

Though I had some concerns last year at the Chicago Seminar DO, that I might say something extemporaneously that I wouldn't ever post online, and so I preferred not to be recorded. With a post I get to write it out, re-read it, and even close out of the post if I think better of it. Speaking live I have no such opportunity.

But I don't think I said anything at that event that I haven't ever posted, or if I hadn't posted it up until that time that I didn't post subsequently.

Still, there is no way around it that flying to an event if you aren't local, joining in for a meal, and getting some face-to-face will often lead to more or different information sharing than will happen online. So will buying a beer (or three or six) grease the tongue and generate more information.

I don't think anyone is proposing a standard that everything that's said in person at a gathering must also be posted? That would have a pretty chilling effect on community, on sharing, and just cause events not to be posted here for fear of running afoul of rules when in fact people do want to share some thing in person that they won't share in writing.

So would I be allowed to walk into the conference room in Chicago if I hadn't paid my registration fee?

I'm guessing the answer is no, and that's the fundamental difference I see between these events and "traditional" DOs. Sure, previous events may have included meeting at a bar or a restaurant, but there was never an obligation to buy anything to receive the information that was exchanged.

So would I be allowed to walk into the conference room in Chicago if I hadn't paid my registration fee?

I'm guessing the answer is no, and that's the fundamental difference I see between these events and "traditional" DOs. Sure, previous events may have included meeting at a bar or a restaurant, but there was never an obligation to buy anything to receive the information that was exchanged.

You'd be welcome to come into the hotel lobby I'm sure. But folks are paying for the conference room at the hotel. They're personally signing contracts with the hotel and making financial guarantees. So I wouldn't be surprised if folks were asked not to come who hadn't paid their share of the expense for the event.

Plus there's limited seating, the Chicago Seminar DO was full and I expect it will be again, as I expect the April Frequent Travler University event will be too.

So, no, I do not see it as different.

Furthermore, it's not different than past DOs where there were activities that involved buying tickets to things, that's gone on for years, DOs haven't just been meeting in bars. Groups of people have gotten together for all sorts of stuff which involves up front cost, which participations have had to pay in order to join in for the activities. There's really nothing new here.

Question: would any of this have been an issue say, two years ago when there was no MP, and everyone on Flyertalk was still holding hands with Randy?

I think it is obvious what the core issue is here.

You'd be welcome to come into the hotel lobby I'm sure. But folks are paying for the conference room at the hotel. They're personally signing contracts with the hotel and making financial guarantees. So I wouldn't be surprised if folks were asked not to come who hadn't paid their share of the expense for the event.

Plus there's limited seating, the Chicago Seminar DO was full and I expect it will be again, as I expect the April Frequent Travler University event will be too.

So, no, I do not see it as different.

Furthermore, it's not different than past DOs where there were activities that involved buying tickets to things, that's gone on for years, DOs haven't just been meeting in bars. Groups of people have gotten together for all sorts of stuff which involves up front cost, which participations have had to pay in order to join in for the activities. There's really nothing new here.

So ultimately it boils down to the fact that you are paying for the ability to access information. information that is not freely available outside of the room, and people are being compensated for providing that information. Is any of that untrue?

So ultimately it boils down to the fact that you are paying for the ability to access information. information that is not freely available outside of the room, and people are being compensated for providing that information. Is any of that untrue?

Yes, all of the above is untrue.

Nobody is making a profit or coming out financially ahead for speaking or organizing.

And only those who cover their portion of expenses participate as with any other Flyertalk DO.

If you don't go to the London DO you won't share in whatever is discussed amongst folks there, if you don't go to the SIN DO you won't share in whatever is discussed amongst folks there. And if a bunch of folks get together and plan a whitewater rafting DO or a SCUBA DO and you don't pay your share of the raft you don't get on the raft.

Likewise, when the Chicago event is full of people participating, if you've chosen not to sign up (which includes paying your share of the room rental fee -- or in the case of the New York event, less than your share) then you'll be told that there's not any room.

You can ask folks who were there what they learned, of course. Nothing wrong with a thread "tell me what you learned at the Chicago Seminar DO" which is different than a speaker saying that they would rather not be recorded. I'm not real keen on recording, personally. At least I wouldn't want to speak without the ability to edit myself.

There's this certain video of me on Facebook, telling a joke when I was in high school, and let's just say it would probably bar me from higher political office. ;) Maybe that just has me scarred. @:-)

Question: would any of this have been an issue say, two years ago when there was no MP, and everyone on Flyertalk was still holding hands with Randy?

I think it is obvious what the core issue is here.

I hope so, because it's in the thread title: When does a 'Do' become a commercial venture solicitations for which, per the TOS, have no place on FlyerTalk? @:-)

But sure, here's the thing: we've seen many, many of the things we used to take for granted were part of the 'community spirit' commercialized and then monetized. From seat preferences to hot topic summaries to award booking space availability to award booking services to FlyerTalk itself all the way to a(nother) clone of FlyerTalk.

Call me a cynic but more and more it seems to be all about being a 'little Randy;' building up cred as a FF 'expert' then trading on and monetizing that cred.

And now some of the folks who own those businesses are setting up a FT (no relation!) Education Foundation...basically a non-profit business to put on these seminars. And many of the speakers at both the foundation events and the non-foundation events who are being comped to speak at these seminars...are the founders of the foundation...and are the owners and proprietors of these commercial services. Who presumably are free to use those seminars to pump their commercial services.

So, sure, the cynic in me thinks that that is part of why now it seems as though Dos are similarly on the road to monetization.

But the other, far more obvious, reason it seems that way is because of the impression it leaves when you say, "Come to X and for $49 you can buy loads of expertise from lots of Little Randys...and sometimes even Big Randy himself!'

It may be inevitable. It may be wildly popular. But I think it ought to be discussed whether and how it fits into FlyerTalk.



And gleff, I do have to say, it makes me laugh that you keep berating me to thank people for services they offer when I 1) have not and will not avail myself of their services and 2) I am dubious as to whether the services actually promote what I see as the best interests of FlyerTalk. If and when I feel gratitude, I will thank them. Til then, well, feel free to keep asking! :D

kokonutz - your thread title ask "When does a Do become a commercial venture,' but it seems like all you've done through the whole thread is tell us the exact answer (in your opinion) to that.

This is not a matter for the TalkBoard. As has already been pointed out, if the moderators feel there is a breach of the rules they are the appropriate enforcement arm of FlyerTalk. Feel free to contact them and the Senior Mods by PM if you feel the need.

As this is not a TalkBoard matter, and the poster has already determined his own answer for the question in the title, I move that this thread be closed.

So ultimately it boils down to the fact that you are paying for the ability to access information. information that is not freely available outside of the room, and people are being compensated for providing that information. Is any of that untrue?

Yes, all of the above is untrue.

And only those who cover their portion of expenses participate as with any other Flyertalk DO.



Well, I'm going to end this conversation since you have decided to be blatantly untruthful. People are certainly being compensated through the offers of free flights and hotel rooms.

If you are going to be deceptive about that, who knows if you're going to be deceptive about the "non-profit" and charity aspects.

I'm about to leave for a 4-day mileage run with very little internet access available & I haven't read this whole thread & I hate to "Post & Run" - but my 2 cents is:

1) What happens online is within FT's realm.

2) What happens offline isn't.

3) No one forces anyone to spend any money they aren't willing to spend.

4) No one does anything completely for free (even if there's non-financial rewards - there may still be other non-tangible rewards) - as they said in the "Princess Bride" - "anyone who says otherwise is selling something" (and that in-tangible reward may be better recognition within a community or a feeling of self-satisfaction of giving back).

5) These things have grown...I remember when I helped Viajero Joven organize a mileage run seminar years ago. We had 20 people & used complimentary meeting space at the county library. When you have 400+ people, you need commercial (hotel) space, meeting rooms, sleeping rooms, food offerings, etc - costs are there, simple as that.

Again - hate to Post & Run, but will come back to this thread a little later on....

Well, I'm going to end this conversation since you have decided to be blatantly untruthful. People are certainly being compensated through the offers of free flights and hotel rooms.

If you are going to be deceptive about that, who knows if you're going to be deceptive about the "non-profit" and charity aspects.

Excuse me?

I have been 100% clear throughout, go re-read my posts. I have simply been contending that no one is financially better off as a result of their participation in the event.

Some folks may well get comped flights, sure, though I did not get a free flight to Chicago in October, and I will be in New York anyway this year. I've explained above that I did get two nights covered at the luxurious Holiday Inn Elk Grove Village, which was not something promised to me when I agreed to speak.

But no one comes out with more money at the end than at the beginning, everyone who gives their time to prepare, organize, present to a sold out crowd is giving far more than they are getting, in fact they aren't geting anything of value at all to them, they're simply not coming out of pocket as much to be able to offer their insights and perspectives to the community that's attending, and that folks seem to want.

I don't understand where I've been anything but upfront, clear, and transparent throughout and to post that I've bene untruthful seems frankly unreasonably and at odds with my 10 years' of participation here.

Chicago Seminar Do 1 last October was not affiliated w/ MP (which didn't exist until a month ago) nor FTET (whose only event last year was the Frequent Travel Awards). It still isn't AFAIK.

I'm starting to wonder if a lot of this discussion by some is because of their problem w/ MP & FTET ;)

Also, I disagree w/ koko that an admin fee which covers the costs of the meeting space, meals, av equipment, and sometimes hotel rooms or air for the speakers at a seminar do makes the event a 'commercial venture'.

Re: his suggestion that TB consider a subforum in CB for seminar dos. Not something I'd vote for. I've been a member of FT since '03. I haven't seen any for profit seminar or commercial dos posted in CB. Heck, I haven't seen that many seminar dos posted in CB over the years. Certainly not enough to justify a subforum.

450 FTers attended ORD Sem Do 1. They evidently thought attending ORD Sem Do would be of value to them as Flyertalkers & worth the admin fee, which was disclosed up front, just as it was this year. Nothing was hidden. If they didn't want to attend due to the admin fee they didn't have to do so, just as koko chooses not to.

It should be noted that I have no financial or other vested interest in the seminar dos, whether run by FTers or by FTET. My only involvement in last year's ORD sem do was to agree to run the charity raffle. So I don't have an agenda to promote, just my opinion.

Flyertalkers are what makes Flyertalk, and Flyertalkers determine what is in the best interests of themselves, whether it be

* sharing information in forums,
* attending dos for the social aspect of it,
* attending dos in hopes of getting travel info in informal settings, or
* attending seminar dos in hopes of getting travel info in a more structured environment.

All of those are fine IMO, and it is not up to me to tell another FTer which method of utilizing Flyertalk is in his/best interest.

Cheers.

People are certainly being compensated through the offers of free flights and hotel rooms.

By your logic TalkBoard Members and FT Moderaters are certainly being compensated through sometimes costs of meals/flights being comped. So perhaps they do not deserve our THANKS for their generous gift of countless hours of service?

THANK YOU moderators and Talkboard members for benefiting the Flyertalk community, not for the sake of profit.

THANK YOU Do organizers for benefiting the Flyertalk community, not for the sake of profit.

By your logic TalkBoard Members and FT Moderaters are certainly being compensated through sometimes costs of meals/flights being comped. So perhaps they do not deserve our THANKS for their generous gift of countless hours of service (giving to our community)?

Ah ha! The corruption starts at the top! No wonder not many are backing koko's sentiment.

:rolleyes:

Kokonutz, I have answered question after questoin of yours, on this thread and on other threads. Quite patiently. And the same questoins, asked fifteen different ways when the answers don't seem to match your priors or theories.

There are things in your post above that are downright false, that have been explained as false in the past and yet either you just ignore explanations contrary to your priors or go on posting them despite knowing that they've been explained as false.

These "Founders of Frequent Traveler Education Foundation" of which you speak... tell me who are those exactly and which ones of those are on the agenda for the Frequent Traveler University event in New York? Because to the best of my knowledge no one who is a founder of that organization is also speaking at the event! And as for my own participation, I've already explained that I am not paid for it, that I am in New York anyway, and I'm even out of pocket 100,000 miles already helping folks get there that weekend. So this conspiracy theory of who benefits or notion of things being done for self-serving purposes, it's been long ago debunked. In this thread, and on other threads where you've asked questions and I've answered them.

You have this theory that the event is somehow to promote a commercial business, but I'd love to know how that works exactly. I have offered my time as a service to help folks book award tickets, but people who come to this sort of a seminar are decidedly not my clientele or target market. These are the people who want to learn to do it themselves. And I don't think I've ever taken a participant on as a client, instead even when I've been approached by people at or from the seminars I've responded with my own tutoring (gratis!) to help them get the bookings they want.

It's interesting that you begin with "just wondering and worrying about precedents" and "this isn't about anyone or anything in particular" and then reveal that you very much have an axe to grind.

And you're throwing around accusation not only just based purely on supposition but on supposition that's previously explained to be false. You're making some serious accusations of bad faith which to me are wholly undeserved, against members of a community that I believe deserve better or at least some benefit of the doubt after all these years. Yet in 10 years I really don't remember seeing such a patronizing post as your last one.

Hopefully I'll just get over it, though right now I'm genuinely depressed because I really do try to offer my very best for frequent flyers, an opportunity to gain from whatever I have to offer, and I've done so at expense of time, cash, and miles out of my own pocket. As bhatnasx observes no one does anything truly selflessly, I'll be the first to say that I have very much enjoyed the friendships and associations that have come out of these events! And I've enjoyed that my friends that I have made have done well, and improved their travel, hopefully I've had something to do with that. And I probably do enjoy telling myself that I'm the kind of person who does and enjoys that, it matches the sort of person I want to be so in that way it's at least partially selfish. but it's also why it does just hurt to be kicked in the face for it.

Will, I'm talking about the events I spend the weekend flying out to at my own expense, 'these events' wasn't a reference to my blog. And if you think I somehow come out ahead flying to an event convincing someone to read my blog and generating their clicks that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the economics of internet advertising.

I do receive some very modest checks from the advertising on my blog, which isn't at all on topic for a thread about DOs.

I've been blogging since 2002. I actually never received even a dime of ad revenue in the first five or six years at least. But I have managed to pick up a few hundred bucks here and there over time from writing it.

Koko hit where I was going:


Call me a cynic but more and more it seems to be all about being a 'little Randy;' building up cred as a FF 'expert' then trading on and monetizing that cred.

Koko is only slightly more cynical than me, but I'm reading this the same way.

While the Do itself may not be "commercial", it certainly smacks of building up the gleff brand as an expert which may be monetized in other ways. And that's fine as I would certainly consider you a subject matter expert on this stuff. To me, the appearance is definitely partially commercial.

Does this belong on the community board? I don't know, and honestly I really don't care. I don't get involved much with moderation or TB stuff. But this thread caught my eye and I am definitely surprised at the evolution of Do's to the point where members have to buy access to other FlyerTalkers.

One I'll toss out into this discussion is that with any of these events there is an inherent trust that must be placed in the organizers that they are spending the monies collected on the event and not other bits. Even when the balance sheet at the end of the day is $0 after some charitable donations are made that doesn't necessarily mean that there are not some personal benefits that could occur.

I am definitely surprised at the evolution of Do's to the point where members have to buy access to other FlyerTalkers.
If you can find a facility that will offer up space for 350 people for free then no charge. Part of the "problem" is that the events have become much larger. I hosted a session for ~20 people at the EWR PClub a couple months ago. That was easy and fun but hard to find a space where we could all sit and talk and work without disrupting the rest of the club. Had there been 40 of us it would have been impossible. When you get a group this large together there will be costs. Just like when you all go out to dinner there are costs. Should I not be permitted to collect the cash for a dinner event in advance? Of course not.

The only time it potentially becomes a problem in my mind is in the scenarios I described at the beginning of this post. If the organizers choose to spend the money on "other" stuff and claim it as part of the event there isn't much to be done other than to know that you no longer trust that person.

But this thread caught my eye and I am definitely surprised at the evolution of Do's to the point where members have to buy access to other FlyerTalkers.

You're not buying access to other FlyerTalkers. You're buying access to a nice big warm conference room so you don't have to sit out in the snow.

Perhaps next time the organisers shouldn't be so kind.

gleff, sincerely, please don't get depressed.

I agree with you that you have given a lot to this community. Thank you for that.

And I wish you every success in your commercial ventures!

And while I do have concerns about the FT(no relation) Education Foundation(ie, just because an entity is non-profit does not mean it's not a business), that's only one small part of what I see going on here.

The bottom line is that not everyone agrees with the direction we see FT going/being taken. Simple as that. It's not personal. It's that we care about FlyerTalk and want to keep it as pure and non-commercially influenced as we can.

And remember, at the end of the day IJAFIBB! ^

Tell me the next time you're hanging in Clarendon and I'll buy you a pint or three of Guinness at O'Sullys and we can chase your blues away! ^ :D

While the Do itself may not be "commercial", it certainly smacks of building up the gleff brand as an expert which may be monetized in other ways.

Look, if folks want to invite me to speak and think I have something of value to say, great. I paid my airfare and hotel to the Ann Arbit Arts Fair DO, gave a 4+ hour talk there, folks seemed to appreciate it.

If I ultimately get something back from it, so much the better though I would sure appreciate ideas on how that might come to pass.

It ain't from ad clicks or blog views, that's just not going to work, if I speak to 50 or 500 people and covert half of them into regular blog readers, well 25 or 250 views even every day isn't going to amount to much. And more likely (1) fewer of them will read me, and (2) if they do they'll subscribe by RSS feed and I don't have any advertising set up on the RSS feed :)

If people are afraid that I will somehow benefit from giving a talk on how to book awards, or a philsophy of approaching rate glitches, or maximizing the benefits of Star Alliance (my 3 topics at the Chicago event last year), then it's really no skin off my back not to do it.

I could just as easily travel somewhere else, a bit more exotic, I have a lot of things on my plate and one less and some more relaxtin with mrs. gleff would be fine!

Or I could actually do one of the things that actually earns me a bit of income, I can tell you it isn't speaking at these events. And I can tell you the best use of my time from a financial standpoint isn't blogging. :)

And if anyone things an event I might speak at ought not be in the community forum because they have a theory about some second-order effects in which I develop a reputation and might make money from it, well... that's cool too.

None of that's personal. I don't have a stake in this sa perhaps you and koko seem to think. ;)

But this thread caught my eye and I am definitely surprised at the evolution of Do's to the point where members have to buy access to other FlyerTalkers.

I should say, no one has to buy access to me, and for the record I usually buy more rounds of drinks than have ever been picked up on me, so if you've got a spare moment any of these days and feel like schlepping out from Dulles a bit to the closer-in suburbs I'd be glad to buy...

Cheers,
Gary

Ah ha! The corruption starts at the top! No wonder not many are backing koko's sentiment.

:rolleyes:

You really can't "move" that a thread be closed, yet continue to post in it.

Either you feel the discussion has run its course, or you feel there is still enough worth commenting on.

You really can't "move" that a thread be closed, yet continue to post in it.

Either you feel the discussion has run its course, or you feel there is still enough worth commenting on.

Of course the discussion has run it's course - the same comments just keep going back and forth. But until it's closed I'll continue reiterating my opinions that (1) this topic is not one for TB, (2) But while it's here, I'll keep talkin'. ;)

And I wish you every success in your commercial ventures!

... Really? Generally a business tries to make a profit. I fail to see how you continue to call gleff's contributions a commercial venture.

... Really? Generally a business tries to make a profit. I fail to see how you continue to call gleff's contributions a commercial venture.

This thread is not about gleff nor his contributions to this community nor his businesses. I know gleff. I like gleff. And he said he felt depressed so I am simply throwin' him a little love! ;)

... Really? Generally a business tries to make a profit. I fail to see how you continue to call gleff's contributions a commercial venture.

Oh, he's just being snarky ;)

He knows that I do have a commercial venture where I book awards for folks, though very rarely for folks who would come to events like these, those folks want to learn to do it themselves and I'm happy to help with that. I charge a fee to folks who want me to do everything soup to nuts, generally including calling and making the reservation for him.

So he knows I won't say I don't have any commercial interests at all in any thing related to travel whatsoever.

And he can keep claiming despite all evidence to the contrary that this is all just about my bottom-line, when it just ain't.

But the mode of argument here is to ignore the bulk of the facts, to suggest that he somehow 'gets' or is 'clued in' to what really is going on. And to repeat his claims as though they were still true or demonstrable even having ignored everything to the contrary.

Fun game, actually. ;)

gleff, what will it take to convince you that this thread is NOT...ABOUT...YOU?

Please, go back and read my words from a neutral perspective rather than a defensive one. I have taken pains to speak generically and in terms of what I think is good and bad for FT. I've tried hard to express my concerns in a positive and friendly manner.

I swear to God, I never made it about you. YOU keep making it about you. Not me.

Ok, koko, but re-read everything you've written. I'm done here.. :)

Actually I disagree. You have made it about gleff & others, and you have been quite snarky at times.

I also think it's a bit strange that you make it sound as though you're the only one with the best interests of Flyertalk at heart. :rolleyes:

And to repeat myself since you do yourself a lot :p

Flyertalkers are what makes Flyertalk, and Flyertalkers determine what is in the best interests of themselves, whether it be

* sharing information in forums,
* attending dos for the social aspect of it,
* attending dos in hopes of getting travel info in informal settings, or
* attending seminar dos in hopes of getting travel info in a more structured environment.

All of those are fine IMO, and it is not up to me to tell another Flyertalker which method of utilizing Flyertalk is in his/best interest.

Cheers.

I am wading into this morass to clarify the issue of speakers being preemptively offered (not asking for) comped air and hotel.

I solicited the head of a couple of non-profit organizations here in Cleveland as well as my sister who does event coordination for the two largest hospital systems in town, for clarification and here's what they both said:

* when a speaker comes in from out of town, he is entitled to a per diem, whether he is paid or a volunteer. That per diem is set by the US government on a per city cost of living basis. It is not considered compensation and not subject to decaration as taxation of income
* in leiu of a per diem, the speaker can choose to have the event be responsible for airport transport, hotel and food costs/logistics. As most speakers are from out of town, they are happy to delegate such arrangements to host company
* in some instances, the cost of the speaker's travel-related expenses are picked up by host, sometimes by sponsor recruited by the host
* for large events, key volunteers are often paid a dedicated wage for time considered above and beyond their normal hours spent with the host non-profit as cash or consideration, such as travel-related expenses/per diem
* these expenses are considered as absolutely normal by non-profit standards, as there is no prohibition on recognizing the obvious OPPORTUNITY COSTS of a speaker donating their time and mitigating any reasonable out-of-pocket expenses

Therefore....

1. A Do-organizer is entitled to build-in a fee for their extracurricular time in executing a Do. Whether that fee is disclosed or not is immaterial, as the final cost to the participant will be the ultimate determinant as to whether the DO in general is perceived as a good value. (Kind of like YQ, knowing it as aseparate line item dooes not change total cost of ticket). So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.

2. Speakers are entitled to accept travel-related cost defrayment without any sense of guilt, without being perceived as being bought off, assuming such travel-related elements are similar (not necessarily exact) to those being offered to paying customers. Such cost defrayment is not to be confused with compensation, as it is intended to be income-neutral.

As the speakers at these events are typically flush with miles and points anyway, clearly no motive can be ascribed for accumulating freebies. That said, if a DO has proactively planned for speaker cash per diem or travel-related consideration, no holier-than-thou abstention from accepting such offers should be required. Creating an efficient and affordable scenario for recruiting speakers is not suspect, its called being professional.


As the resident cynic, if Seminar DOs are banned from Flyertalk, will TB allow 'Post-ORD-DO Party' threads that tangentially reference (without a link) such events? As master loophole dudes of FFPs, you can be damn sure that no amount TB vigilance will stop posting leakage.

I'm done.

PS- As speaker for ORD-Do, I paid my own way and was offered hotel AFTER I already checked in, with no expectation of reimbursement. I happily accepted the offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies. For FTU, I offered to pay my own way and was advised that a sponsor had included our travel in their fee to FTU, so I appreciated the kind thought and took them up on offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies.

One I'll toss out into this discussion is that with any of these events there is an inherent trust that must be placed in the organizers that they are spending the monies collected on the event and not other bits. Even when the balance sheet at the end of the day is $0 after some charitable donations are made that doesn't necessarily mean that there are not some personal benefits that could occur.


If you can find a facility that will offer up space for 350 people for free then no charge. Part of the "problem" is that the events have become much larger. I hosted a session for ~20 people at the EWR PClub a couple months ago. That was easy and fun but hard to find a space where we could all sit and talk and work without disrupting the rest of the club. Had there been 40 of us it would have been impossible. When you get a group this large together there will be costs. Just like when you all go out to dinner there are costs. Should I not be permitted to collect the cash for a dinner event in advance? Of course not.

The only time it potentially becomes a problem in my mind is in the scenarios I described at the beginning of this post. If the organizers choose to spend the money on "other" stuff and claim it as part of the event there isn't much to be done other than to know that you no longer trust that person.

Well said.

Cheers.

Which came first, gleff's award booking business or FTU? Which came first, ingy's book or or the ORD-Do? Which came first, tommy777 helming a huge event like FT Awards/FTU or organizing 2 huge Star Mega-Dos?

These guys have already proven their mettle and created their 'markets' in advance of these Seminar-Dos. If these guys had not been loyal and productive posters on FT and instead, were invited as 'outside' speakers or tapped to be 'outside' event organizers, would there be any questioning of their intent/motives?

The Flyertalk community is clearly proud that the talent (speakers, organizers) is homegrown, based on the tangible PAID registration support at their respective events. What is even more compelling about their respective performances is that the marketplace keeps coming back for more. Repeat business is the best metric of if the FT community feels their interests are being served in a content-rich and cost-effective manner- tommy777 with 2 SMD under his belt, ingy with a close to soldout second ORD-Do, and gleff as a consistently sought after expert from within and well beyond FT.

A seller can offer to monetize a Seminar-DO or their services, but it is the BUYERS that ultimately trigger (or not!!) such monetization. So, if any blame for 'monetizing' should be doled out, it goes to those motivated and excited attendees that clamor for and choose to pay for such events.

The Flyertalk community is clearly proud that the talent (speakers, organizers) is homegrown, based on the tangible PAID registration support at their respective events. What is even more compelling about their respective performances is that the marketplace keeps coming back for more. Repeat business is the best metric of if the FT community feels their interests are being served in a content-rich and cost-effective manner- tommy777 with 2 SMD under his belt, ingy with a close to soldout second ORD-Do, and gleff as a consistently sought after expert from within and well beyond FT.

A seller can offer to monetize a Seminar-DO or their services, but it is the BUYERS that ultimately trigger (or not!!) such monetization. So, if any blame for 'monetizing' should be doled out, it goes to those motivated and excited attendees that clamor for and choose to pay for such events.

Repeating myself again. Well said.

And again, the attendees know that the admin fees are going towards the lunches, meeting rooms, av equipment, badges, and in some cases speaker air or hotel. If they're ok w/ it & think the value is worth it, they'll attend. If they don't they won't.

If a seminar do is not their cup of tea for info even if there's a zero admin fee, they'll go to the forums or the social dos for info that better meets their needs.

And the final repeat of myself - I have not seen a huge glut of for profit or non profit seminar dos in CB over the years. I don't think we're going to have a sudden stampede of people going yee haw. Lookit there. There are all these travelers to fleece. And I think FTers are a pretty smart bunch. They can suss out the wheat from the chuff.

On that, have a good night and/or weekend everyone.

Cheers.

1. A Do-organizer is entitled to build-in a fee for their extracurricular time in executing a Do. Whether that fee is disclosed or not is immaterial, as the final cost to the participant will be the ultimate determinant as to whether the DO in general is perceived as a good value. (Kind of like YQ, knowing it as aseparate line item dooes not change total cost of ticket). So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.


And this is where the slippery slope starts getting steep.

Does anyone know: What do the sponsors get out of the money they donate to offset the costs of these "FT University" / Seminar Do's? These sponsors aren't handing out grants, are they?

I think Koko has a valid point, "Do" organizers don't typically get free rooms or a free meal for organizing their respective function(s). Adding sponsors and comping organizers/speakers (even if the comp isn't all inclusive) may be where the line is being crossed, from an get together of like minded FTers in a cool location to an event that is something different.

While its fine to say that the organizers aren't profiting from it today doesn't mean that it can't be profited from tomorrow. Just ask Randy about that one...

And this is where the slippery slope starts getting steep.

And the proviso which apparently escaped your bolding....;)

So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.

The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.

The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).

Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.

Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.And frankly let's also a assume a bit of good faith, until demonstrated otherwise, on the part of folks putting in thousands of hours to host events for a community of frequent flyers.

Otherwise, as I said earlier, you risk create rules that hamper the very events that the community values.

Not to mention slapping in the face the very people who are providing them.

Could someone figure out a way to make money? OMG wouldn't that be 'awful' but also perhaps off-limits at that point for sharing in the community forum (maybe, I don't consider myself the true expert on this).

But in the meantime let's actually enjoy the multitude of venues for the discussion of miles and points, and actually say thanks once in awhile for the people investing time, effort, and even their own cash to pull it all together. @:-)

I think Koko has a valid point, "Do" organizers don't typically get free rooms or a free meal for organizing their respective function(s). Adding sponsors and comping organizers/speakers (even if the comp isn't all inclusive) may be where the line is being crossed, from an get together of like minded FTers in a cool location to an event that is something different....

Indeed, size matters!

Most small DOs do not involve overnights or arranging blocks of hotel rooms.
It is SOP for a hotel to offer some consideration (comped rooms as a function of number of paid rooms). My sister (event planner) advises that once someone books more than 50 rooms as a block, the local hotel manager is empowered to offer some comps. So, the more rooms, the more comps available. Its not unique to Seminar-Do organizers to be made these offers, ANY meeting planner would be privy, whether non-profit or not.

With agency commissions at 10-15% and meeting planner commissions 15-20%, its amazing that the maybe 2-2.5% worth of consideration/commissions are under such scrutiny.

Does anyone know: What do the sponsors get out of the money they donate to offset the costs of these "FT University" / Seminar Do's? These sponsors aren't handing out grants, are they?

I think Koko has a valid point, "Do" organizers don't typically get free rooms or a free meal for organizing their respective function(s). Adding sponsors and comping organizers/speakers (even if the comp isn't all inclusive) may be where the line is being crossed, from an get together of like minded FTers in a cool location to an event that is something different.

While its fine to say that the organizers aren't profiting from it today doesn't mean that is can't be profited form tomorrow. Just ask Randy about that one...

I'm sure over the years some do organizers have gotten free meals or a free room at non-educational social dos. Shrug. Doesn't bother me if it happens occasionally because organizing a do can take up a lot of time, effort, & yes $$. I doubt anyone wants to take on all the logistics of a do just for the hope of a free room or meal.

What does any sponsor get out of anything? Visibility in front of a perceived target audience.

It sounds like for you a do is simply getting together in a cool location in a social way w/ like-minded travelers. For the 450 folk that chose to attend ORD Sem Do last year, it was getting together in a (not so cool) location w/ like-minded folk to learn in a structured environment vs informally over a beer or a meal at Wagamama's - and that something different was fine w/ them.

Repeating myself from the 2010 thread when administrative fees at dos came up: I don't think admin fees at FT Dos falls under the purview of TB.

Cheers.

And the proviso which apparently escaped your bolding....;)

So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.

The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.

The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).

Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.

And frankly let's also a assume a bit of good faith, until demonstrated otherwise, on the part of folks putting in thousands of hours to host events for a community of frequent flyers.

But in the meantime let's actually enjoy the multitude of venues for the discussion of miles and points, and actually say thanks once in awhile for the people investing time, effort, and even their own cash to pull it all together. @:-)

Bold/underline mine in the quotes above.

Cheers.

My last shot here.

Two years ago, Randy sponsored a bunch of FT teams for my new company Competitours. It was a for profit business, the exposure would help me monitize the business over the long run....and yet because it was considered of interest/relevance to the FT community, Randy greenlighted it.

Nary an objection about my motives/intent, Randy's motives/intent, the poisoning of the pristine FT community spirit. Instead, it was embraced as a terrific opportunity that could be engaged or ignored.

So, precedent has been set, I'm afraid!!!

My last shot here.

Two years ago, Randy sponsored a bunch of FT teams for my new company Competitours. It was a for profit business, the exposure would help me monitize the business over the long run....and yet because it was considered of interest/relevance to the FT community, Randy greenlighted it.

Nary an objection about my motives/intent, Randy's motives/intent, the poisoning of the pristine FT community spirit. Instead, it was embraced as a terrific opportunity that could be engaged or ignored.

So, precedent has been set, I'm afraid!!!

This is a perfect example of what I brought up earlier - none of the things in this thread would ever have been an issue if FT (Flyertalk) was still under control of Randy. But the world is now a different place, and a lot of people suddenly have more than one hat on - some even have financial interests in what can be described as "the competition".

Let's take the personalities away. On my drive home, the local sports radio guys were on their Friday "tavern tour" - a sponsored remote at one local establishment per week. If Budweiser wants to sponsor a party for FT members at a local adult beverage establishment, are they allowed to do the following:

1. Create a FT user
2. Create a post in community announcing their event
3. Link to their web site in the post
4. Pay Randy his standard day's consulting fee to come fly in for the event.

If it wasn't gleff and ingy and wannaflyforless and beaubo and Tommy, but some currently nameless guerilla marketer being paid by Budweiser to drum up business, how would you all feel? In fact, how do you know I'm not that marketer and that Budweiser didn't pay me $50 to post here? (Well that's easy, Budweiser is awful.)

Let's be clear on my position here: I want you all to make as much money as you possibly can - I'm a small business capitalist at heart. That you're not.. that doesn't particularly impress me or annoy me. What would infuriate me is if you were hiding being all these obviously passionately responses and actually making serious money and not coming clean. But given the fervor of your defense, that can't possibly be the case.

I just want to know given the stated TOS and the endorsed interpretation of it from our esteemed Community Director a few months ago (for which I apologize not having previously seen), who else is allowed to make money using Community and for what types of endeavors. That's why I found the topic interesting on page 1.

The first night I bought dinner and got a free meal while treating some of the set up volunteers. My profit $15 (a meal)

I bought dinner for three or four of our speakers the last night. I was one of them. My profit $20 (a meal)

I bought myself a crazy Hawaiian shirt so anybody could find me in the crowd if they needed me. My profit $15 (a shirt)

I bought my own airline ticket to Chicago, my room was comped as were the other speakers.

I gave one of the speakers a $200 voucher so he could attend. My cost $200. (Now whine that I got the voucher for less than $200. I would expect that next.)

100 copies of my book which were sold and the proceeds donated to the Wounded Warriors. My cost $250+-

The net cost to me of about $400 and countless hours of my time for the appreciative members of the community.

koko if you felt I took advantage, I'll send you the Hawaiian shirt if you'd like.

I'm not a huge fan of either of the antagonists :)

But as I see it there is an issue here that both sides are trying their best to obfuscate.

In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.

Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.

Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.

(bear with me I'm getting there)

Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days. And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.

AND these individuals ARE getting comps to at least some pieces of the events which IIRC was NOT a part of most do organizers rewards in the past.

So I think we are right to question the transparency of these benefits - I don't have a hit that their needs to be a separate forum, but it IS a different world here . If the organizers of these events aren't doing anything untoward, what's wrong with stating in a DO for which money is being charged for SERVICES "Organizers will receive hotel rooms and 10000 miles for their volunteering for this event." I have NO PROBLEM at all with this - it just should be upfront.

And to those who say you had NO CHOICE but to call it the "FT Awards" - I think even YOU don't believe that.

I also find the "I didn't make any money off my previous endeavor" posts to be misleading.

Sure, the first (or second) time you paid for everything yourself was nice of you - but I can't help feel that for some people, that may have been a prelude to much larger things. Give a little, get a lot back later.

In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.

Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.

Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.

(bear with me I'm getting there)


Roberta, all of the above is fair as far as it goes, though I'm not sure I ever considered the ModDOs a reward I think to a first approximation everyhting you've said so far above is reasonable.

(Except the part about trying to obfuscate anything, really, I'm not -- which is why I've been posting here in such detail.)

Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days.

I find it really hard to believe that anything could be more transparent, at least in terms of the Chicago Seminar DO and the Frequent Traveler University.

Ingy and I have been on this thread detailing EXACTLY who has gotten what, who is out of pocket what, I've explained time and again that he picked up two hotel nights for me at the Chicago Seminar DO (I paid my airfare, etc) in October. I've explained that I'm in New York anyway for the Frequent Traveler University (and c'mon, it's no big deal, I'm based in DC anyway). And that I've come out of pocket 100,000 miles to help bring people to it.

There's not much hidden here. There are no great kickbacks or secret deals, rewards being doled out.

And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.


Oh, I don't think there's really any street cred that reaps financial benefit from speaking at the Chicago or New York educational events. I do get to meet some great people, and if I help them with something useful then they probably think more of me as a result, which I think is great. ^

Could ther be a benefit to me from putting on a successful Frequent Traveler Awards, which is not the subject of this thread? Sure.

Y'know what, look at tommy777. He and a bunch of other folks like oliver2002 charted a darned plane and got a bunch of airlines to host events and even airline CEOs to show up. That was a pretty big deal, a bunch of frequent flyers had the time of their lives, and there was some media around it. It was a really big deal and any reputatoin he built from that was earned.

If I can help continue an award in the tradition of the Freddies -- get programs to take it so seriously that they send out 50 to 100 million emails about it, bring in their top leadership.. all in the name of celebrating what's best about frequent flyer programs and nudging them to do their best for their members so that they perform well. Then hopefully I'll have done something that deserves the esteem of friends and fellow travelers.

Do I have any idea if that sort of reputation will make me money? Nah, I don't. But I know that it's exactly the kind of reputatoin that I want because I like to think of myself as someone who helps fellow frequent flyers, who delivers the goods in a big way when given the opportunity to put on something big.

Everything that I do, everything any of us do, reflects on us and our reputations.

So to the extent I can help folks, I'll benefit my reputation. But it's precisely because I do care about my reputation, which whatever it is hopefully has been earned, it's the very reason why I deal with folks in an above-board manner.

I wanted to comment that IN THE FUTURE this kind of stuff could be dealt with by transparency at the outset, and I even gave a model for how that might look.

And the proviso which apparently escaped your bolding....;)

So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.

The market (not TB) will be the arbiter of the slope. If Seminar-DOs are priced bw $49-$75 and someone pitches a Seminar-Do at $175, then it better have gourmet food or hookers or 30K bonus miles to justify their cost (potential fee padding) structure.

The slope is ONLY slippery for the seller, as their time and effort, and maybe reputation will be all for naught, if they try and sneak outright greed into their pricing. The buyers will recognize such a slippery slope and take their business to the flatlands (ORd-Do, FTU, etc.).

Lets give some credit to the consumers here to be somewhat savvy in their decisionmaking abilities.

What is self policing about the fact that, thanks to sponsor money, the true cost per person for the Chicago DO could (hypothetically) be $65 and the extra $10 per person is being pocketed by the organizers for their "organizing fee"?

Seems like you would be OK with the organizers making $5000 off the event since they didn't realize the true costs.

I'm not a huge fan of either of the antagonists :)

But as I see it there is an issue here that both sides are trying their best to obfuscate.

In the "old days" - DO's were often fancy meals, or weekend get togethers where participants paid for their meals, and organizers, sadly often got shorted when some didn't pay their share.
So some DO's began to require pre-payment of costs - drinks usually extra and no one minded as the organizers weren't getting anything out of it except the glory of putting together an awesome do.

Some DO's, the Freddies and a few others, were subsidized by Randy so no one had to pay for the event itself.

Some DO's for the moderator corps were subsidized by Randy and then IB to help with the costs of travel. Many mods "lost money" on the events in that the subsidy often did not cover travel costs. In any event it was a "reward" for a year's worth of volunteering.

(bear with me I'm getting there)

Now without our generous benefactor hosting a yearly awards events, we see what looks to me to be a hybrid event. Hosts are finding sponsors to subsidize costs of large events, but any bennies the organizers receive are NOT transparent as it might have been in the old days. And in spite of what gleff has said,some events will definitely enhance some individuals' "street cred" in the world of frequent flyer minds, which opens the door for those individuals to gain monetary reward at some point for their PAY services.

AND these individuals ARE getting comps to at least some pieces of the events which IIRC was NOT a part of most do organizers rewards in the past.

So I think we are right to question the transparency of these benefits - I don't have a hit that their needs to be a separate forum, but it IS a different world here . If the organizers of these events aren't doing anything untoward, what's wrong with stating in a DO for which money is being charged for SERVICES "Organizers will receive hotel rooms and 10000 miles for their volunteering for this event." I have NO PROBLEM at all with this - it just should be upfront.

And to those who say you had NO CHOICE but to call it the "FT Awards" - I think even YOU don't believe that.

I wanted to comment that IN THE FUTURE this kind of stuff could be dealt with by transparency at the outset, and I even gave a model for how that might look.

Thanks, Squeakr I trust that TB is looking closely at this forum and that with "transparency at the outset" these issues will no longer be problematic.

I am wading into this morass to clarify the issue of speakers being preemptively offered (not asking for) comped air and hotel.

I solicited the head of a couple of non-profit organizations here in Cleveland as well as my sister who does event coordination for the two largest hospital systems in town, for clarification and here's what they both said:

* when a speaker comes in from out of town, he is entitled to a per diem, whether he is paid or a volunteer. That per diem is set by the US government on a per city cost of living basis. It is not considered compensation and not subject to decaration as taxation of income
* in leiu of a per diem, the speaker can choose to have the event be responsible for airport transport, hotel and food costs/logistics. As most speakers are from out of town, they are happy to delegate such arrangements to host company
* in some instances, the cost of the speaker's travel-related expenses are picked up by host, sometimes by sponsor recruited by the host
* for large events, key volunteers are often paid a dedicated wage for time considered above and beyond their normal hours spent with the host non-profit as cash or consideration, such as travel-related expenses/per diem
* these expenses are considered as absolutely normal by non-profit standards, as there is no prohibition on recognizing the obvious OPPORTUNITY COSTS of a speaker donating their time and mitigating any reasonable out-of-pocket expenses

Therefore....

1. A Do-organizer is entitled to build-in a fee for their extracurricular time in executing a Do. Whether that fee is disclosed or not is immaterial, as the final cost to the participant will be the ultimate determinant as to whether the DO in general is perceived as a good value. (Kind of like YQ, knowing it as aseparate line item dooes not change total cost of ticket). So, the organizer fee structure is INHERENTLY self-policing because unreasonable fees will be reflected in an unreasonable total price which will impact registration volume. High volume registration must mean reasonable fee/strong value proposition.

2. Speakers are entitled to accept travel-related cost defrayment without any sense of guilt, without being perceived as being bought off, assuming such travel-related elements are similar (not necessarily exact) to those being offered to paying customers. Such cost defrayment is not to be confused with compensation, as it is intended to be income-neutral.

As the speakers at these events are typically flush with miles and points anyway, clearly no motive can be ascribed for accumulating freebies. That said, if a DO has proactively planned for speaker cash per diem or travel-related consideration, no holier-than-thou abstention from accepting such offers should be required. Creating an efficient and affordable scenario for recruiting speakers is not suspect, its called being professional.


As the resident cynic, if Seminar DOs are banned from Flyertalk, will TB allow 'Post-ORD-DO Party' threads that tangentially reference (without a link) such events? As master loophole dudes of FFPs, you can be damn sure that no amount TB vigilance will stop posting leakage.

I'm done.

PS- As speaker for ORD-Do, I paid my own way and was offered hotel AFTER I already checked in, with no expectation of reimbursement. I happily accepted the offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies. For FTU, I offered to pay my own way and was advised that a sponsor had included our travel in their fee to FTU, so I appreciated the kind thought and took them up on offer...no shame, no regrets, no apologies.

Dude. Thank you SO much for wading in here and making my point!!!

So when did Do's go from people breaking bread and swapping frequent flyer tips into seminars where certain attendees are 'owed' per diems and/or actuals and organizers are owed fees!?

And, more to the point, how does that in any way square with the TOS that commercial solicitations are meant to be forbidden on FT (FlyerTalk)?

PS: long time, no see! :)

What is self policing about the fact that, thanks to sponsor money, the true cost per person for the Chicago DO could (hypothetically) be $65 and the extra $10 per person is being pocketed by the organizers for their "organizing fee"?

Seems like you would be OK with the organizers making $5000 off the event since they didn't realize the true costs.

Seriously DeaconFlyer
who cares? :confused: If we (the attendees of the event) are willing to PAY to attend the DO, then why do we care who profits from our fees? They are the ones putting on the event and they are going to the trouble to organize it. They should be compensated for their time and trouble.

New Guard flyertalkers:cool: are used to paying for things that apparently Old Guard:eek: wants to get for free and they are offended that they aren't privy to the information or not making the profit themselves!:D

It is time for the Flyer Talker Old Guard to realize that "This is not your Father's Oldsmobile"

Times are achangin'!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/1186896-chicago-october-2011-seminar-do-registration-open.html

Post number #1

Seminar registration this year will be $75. Why the increase? We added for online registration (hooray), money to fly in our speakers, and lunch and coffee breaks for both days are included in your registration. This event again is 100% non profit and an all volunteer effort. Any excess proceeds will be given to charity. Seminar Registration will also be NON refundable. There will be no waiting list and you will only be able to register through the online links we will provide.

How much more of a disclosure do you need?

Stop worrying that someone, somewhere might somehow benefit either by having part of their travel cost offset, or becoming 'famous' by providing useful assistance to frequent flyers that they might somehow benefit sometime in the future from their current generosity (karma anyone?).

And instead focus on yourself, think about the countless hours folks are putting in to try to benefit hundreds of members of a community.

And consider whether you're doing nearly as much for members of the community as the folks you criticize or scrutinize.

And let me just say, ingy, thank you for all of the efforts you've gone through to organize an event last year that nearly 500 frequent flyers attended and universally got tremendous value out of. The only complaints I heard were lack of fruits and veggies at breakfast, and that was because you weren't aksing people to kick in enough cash!

When I said to you -- prior to this thread -- that I hoped there would be enough cash left from the registration fees at the end that you might be able to take your wife to dinner, given the amount of spouse time you lose out on by doing the event, you told me that under no circumstances would you use any funds from the event for such a dinner.

So thank you on behalf of the community, and on behalf of the haters who won't say so. ^

Posting as a rather average reader/lurker/contributor I guess.

As someone asked about common members opinions too.

Im pretty sure 99% of ther readers of FT dont care a single moment about this subject. Its rather academical and theoretical for most. People are here too learn, read, ask questions and travel. For the same reason people go to DOs, paying or not, as attendees.

I have never been to a DO (if it wasnt for the pointbreaks at IC Aqaba late April, I would certainly have flown over from Europe:D to NYC). Hope to DO soon.

If there is one poster I more than anyone like the posts of, I guess its Koko^

I also think his question is very timely and relevant. The question is often more important than the answer. However for the first time I dont share (to me what seems to be) his reply.

I would also give ^^^^^^ to Gleff, Ingy, Tommy, Beaubo, RP and all the others that organize and really do a lot of great work for the FT world.

Im also pretty sure this is not personal from Koko, but that might be difficult to believe when you find your self in the line of fire.

On a side note I have no problems whatsoever if anyone earns money on this. USA is the capital of the free capitalist world after all. And the whole FT scene is no longer some obscure underground world.

I have no problems with commercial activity on FT, especially when all terms are disclosed. Like awardnexus, expertflyer etc. Actually I would have liked to see more of it. Maybe open a commercial forum is the solution? Like it seems to be on MP?
I havent heard about Ingys book before today, but now I really want to read it. I hadnt heard about competitours before yesterday, and now I plan to attend (but website was down today!). Just a few days ago since I learnt about Gleffs award ticketing business. I have advised a few people about it.

Getting info on commercial ideas, is sharing of info too.

An airline lurker here, is after all promoting his comapny as well? Or?

I have no problems with commercial activity on FT, especially when all terms are disclosed. Like awardnexus, expertflyer etc. Actually I would have liked to see more of it. Maybe open a commercial forum is the solution? Like it seems to be on MP?
I havent heard about Ingys book before today, but now I really want to read it. I hadnt heard about competitours before yesterday, and now I plan to attend (but website was down today!). Just a few days ago since I learnt about Gleffs award ticketing business. I have advised a few people about it.

Getting info on commercial ideas, is sharing of info too.

An airline lurker here, is after all promoting his comapny as well? Or?

ElmhurstNick made this suggestion upthread, too. I think it has merit.

There are lots of travel products that FTers, other entrepreneurs and even big ole' marketing and travel companies have on offer.

But right now commercial solicitations are forbidden by the TOS.

So why not create a commercial offerings forum and allow anyone who wants to charge for a product post about it in there. Anyone clicking on that forum would know that they are leaving the 'commercial free' zone of FT and entering a marketplace.

The other option is to change the TOS to allow commercial solicitations in Community, because that's the de facto situation now.

Dude. Thank you SO much for wading in here and making my point!!!

So when did Do's go from people breaking bread and swapping frequent flyer tips into seminars where certain attendees are 'owed' per diems and/or actuals and organizers are owed fees!?

And, more to the point, how does that in any way square with the TOS that commercial solicitations are meant to be forbidden on FT (FlyerTalk)?

PS: long time, no see! :)

Koko-

Umm, my post simply explained that speaker travel cost defrayment and organizer (large scale) fees have a broad precedent/SOP/justification.

Nowhere did I imply or explicitly mention that they were 'owed' or expected for Seminar-Dos, but simply that it would NOT be unusual or suspect if they were offered.

There are lots of travel products that FTers, other entrepreneurs and even big ole' marketing and travel companies have on offer.

But right now commercial solicitations are forbidden by the TOS.

So why not create a commercial offerings forum and allow anyone who wants to charge for a product post about it in there. Anyone clicking on that forum would know that they are leaving the 'commercial free' zone of FT and entering a marketplace.

The other option is to change the TOS to allow commercial solicitations in Community, because that's the de facto situation now.

Fine, either suggestion would be great,,,,and sadly long overdue in being offered on this thread.

That simple suggestion is a constructive solution that can effectively end all of the posting about speculative issues of greedy motives, malintent, ill-informed consumers, conflicts of interest, secretive profits, sweetheart hotel/airfare deals, leveraging public events for private/downstream gain and all the other psuedo-accusations that I have lost track of.

I attended the Chicago DO seminar and realized that it was fun. If I can, schedule permitting, I will attend again, whether or I get free rooms.

It was great listening to The Pudding Guy (who has since moved on from miles but continues to lead in a different way), Mr.Pickles, beaubo, wanaflyforless. But the best was talking to all and sundry who chose to attend. I also got to meet some who helped me early on with advice and some who had traded with me earlier.

The money raised AFAIK mostly went to charity (SkiAdcock was helping with that) and I think that it was worth the trip for me. It was a FT microcosm, with the hotel and car guys making my head spin with calculations of value.

kokonutz, you have a right to raise the issue if it troubles you but I do not think the seminar DOs violate FT spirit. I must also confess I have not read the TOS in quite a while (if ever). I got about several extra miles reading FT over 3 years and continue to enjoy it, even if my rate of accrual is slowing. If I were to organize one seminar, I would be concerned about the upfront risk that I was taking and I think the registration fee is minor. There is no compulsion to attend this anyway.

Fine, either suggestion would be great,,,,and sadly long overdue in being offered on this thread.

That simple suggestion is a constructive solution that can effectively end all of the posting about speculative issues of greedy motives, malintent, ill-informed consumers, conflicts of interest, secretive profits, sweetheart hotel/airfare deals, leveraging public events for private/downstream gain and all the other psuedo-accusations that I have lost track of.

Actually, it was discussed about 50 posts ago. Better early/late than never!

And sure, greed is good. Greed works. Let's stop pussyfooting around it and accept that that's the future of seminar Dos. ^

Actually, it was discussed about 50 posts ago. Better early/late than never!

And sure, greed is good. Greed works. Let's stop pussyfooting around it and accept that that's the future of seminar Dos. ^


If you have made up your mind that greed (selfish financial self-interest) has motivated the suppliers of Seminar-DOs, then you can equally characterize the customers of Seminar DOs as equally greedy, since they also perceive their selfish financial /mileage self-interests being satisfied by paying whatever purported exhorbitant, surreptitious price markups that you and DeaconFlyer have conjured up with no proof...and despite full disclosure (absolutely not due you) from gleff, ingy, tommy, wannaflyforless and myself.

So, the 'greedy' suppliers and 'greedy' customers clearly have parallel agendas. If both parties enter into agreements without coercion, it obviates any concerns about rip-offs, financial impropriety, etc.

Overall, whether you intended it or not, your posts have had the impact of generating unwarranted suspicion and distrust upon the reputations (within this thankfully little-read thread) of SMD 1/2 and ORD-DO 1 organizers and speakers who have over 500 firsthand satisfied customers. One has to be a pretty damn good shyster to rip-off that many people and not have even one of them figure it out....so maybe, just maybe- no one is ripping-off and no one is ripped-off.

Until you decide to commit to firsthand research supporting your unproven suppositions, by attending FTU or ORD-DO....I bid you adieu.

If you have made up your mind that greed (selfish financial self-interest) has motivated the suppliers of Seminar-DOs, then you can equally characterize the customers of Seminar DOs as equally greedy, since they also perceive their selfish financial /mileage self-interests being satisfied by paying whatever purported exhorbitant, surreptitious price markups that you and DeaconFlyer have conjured up with no proof...and despite full disclosure (absolutely not due you) from gleff, ingy, tommy, wannaflyforless and myself.

So, the 'greedy' suppliers and 'greedy' customers clearly have parallel agendas. If both parties enter into agreements without coercion, it obviates any concerns about rip-offs, financial impropriety, etc.

Overall, whether you intended it or not, your posts have had the impact of generating unwarranted suspicion and distrust upon the reputations (within this thankfully little-read thread) of SMD 1/2 and ORD-DO 1 organizers and speakers who have over 500 firsthand satisfied customers. One has to be a pretty damn good shyster to rip-off that many people and not have even one of them figure it out....so maybe, just maybe- no one is ripping-off and no one is ripped-off.

Until you decide to commit to firsthand research supporting your unproven suppositions, by attending FTU or ORD-DO....I bid you adieu.

Well now I'm confused. I was applauding your honesty in that it seemed that you were the only expertise provider in this thread who seemed willing to say, yeah, darn it, I am and expert and/or seminar organizer and I think it's fine to expect others to compensate me for my expertise/organizational skills.

In any case, I AGREE with you that the service providers are providing a service that many customers seem to want and enjoy.

I'm not trying to shut the seminar do's down. Or even throwing stones at them.

ALL I am saying is: let's call a spade a spade. These are commercial transactions and the TOS should either account for them, or the TB ought to create a commercial forum in which they can continue to exist along with other commercial offers, or (I think most appropriately) both.

These are commercial transactions and the TOS should either account for them, or the TB ought to create a commercial forum in which they can continue to exist along with other commercial offers, or (I think most appropriately) both.

There are quite a few such exceptions to the ToS, most of which are accepted with tacit approval of the mod corp or at the direction of the community host. Remember that TB doesn't enforce or write the ToS so asking them to enforce or change this one seems strange.

Well now I'm confused. I was applauding your honesty in that it seemed that you were the only expertise provider in this thread who seemed willing to say, yeah, darn it, I am and expert and/or seminar organizer and I think it's fine to expect others to compensate me for my expertise/organizational skills.


Regrettably, at this point, your only seeming agenda is to continue to provoke and confuse.

1. Please quote the post where I 'expect' anything as a speaker.

2. Please quote the post where I define travel-related per diem/cost defrayment/comped rooms as 'compensation'.

I was crystal clear, despite your attempt at obsfucation, that speakers accepting (NOT expecting) reimbursement in cash or consideration for travel-related expenses (NOT taxable compensation) is a NORM that non-profits may choose to offer and is not considered a commercial transaction.

It is that simple.

Well now I'm confused. I was applauding your honesty in that it seemed that you were the only expertise provider in this thread who seemed willing to say, yeah, darn it, I am and expert and/or seminar organizer and I think it's fine to expect others to compensate me for my expertise/organizational skills.


Koko, I applaud your masterful ability to keep to keep the veneer of a civil, pleasant debate TONE while engaging in such damaging and innuendo-driven debate TACTICS.

* You credit my honesty by contrasting it as lacking in the other speakers/organizers. I joined this thread solely to defend the reputations and motivations of ingy, gleff, tommy, wannaflyforless whom I have substantial firsthand experience with, so if I am honest so are they and if they are dishonest, so am I.

* You characterize me as 'expecting' 'compensation' when I clearly stated I would 'accept' if offered, reimbursement of 'travel-related expenses'. Quite a significant difference, methinks.

I guess I have to get confident enough that my (and others) line of reasoning has been well-understood at this point, because you are committed to having the last word and hoping that a lack of response will validate your position (the old debate tactic of- they stopped defending themselves, so they must be wrong). I'll take my chances that others will judge your ongoing posts with a sense of caution and context provided by myself and others.


No one objects to your trying to create a new TOS for what you consider a new type of Do. So, start a new thread with your motion already. The time for commentary is over. Your TB peers will determine if your concern merits any tangible action.

Move to close thread for lack of any new, especially provable, info that can be contributed at this point.

Koko, I applaud your masterful ability to keep to keep the veneer of a civil, pleasant debate TONE while engaging in such damaging and innuendo-driven debate TACTICS.

* You credit my honesty by contrasting it as lacking in the other speakers/organizers. I joined this thread solely to defend the reputations and motivations of ingy, gleff, tommy, wannaflyforless whom I have substantial firsthand experience with, so if I am honest so are they and if they are dishonest, so am I.

* You characterize me as 'expecting' 'compensation' when I clearly stated I would 'accept' if offered, reimbursement of 'travel-related expenses'. Quite a significant difference, methinks.



You also clearly stated that DO-organizers deserve payment for their time and effort. That's significantly different than a speaker receiving non-monetary compensation.

Koko-

Umm, my post simply explained that speaker travel cost defrayment and organizer (large scale) fees have a broad precedent/SOP/justification.

Nowhere did I imply or explicitly mention that they were 'owed' or expected for Seminar-Dos, but simply that it would NOT be unusual or suspect if they were offered.

Deacon Flyer.....context alert! ;)

Before the thread gets closed, I wonder if anyone involved can answer what I asked a few posts ago...

What do the sponsors get for their involvement?

In addition...

Are the organizers collecting or keeping meeting points?

Do the speakers have the opportunity to advance their businesses? (Books, travel agencies, Ticket booking services, etc)

To be clear: I think there is nothing wrong with what the organizers of these events are trying to do. I wish I had their entrepreneurial sprint/moxie.

I do think that these events are not a "Do" (in the context they've always been on FlyerTalk)...they are something different. Because they are not "Do's" they need to be treated differently...

Before the thread gets closed, I wonder if anyone involved can answer what I asked a few posts ago...

What do the sponsors get for their involvement?

In addition...

Are the organizers collecting or keeping meeting points?

Do the speakers have the opportunity to advance their businesses? (Books, travel agencies, Ticket booking services, etc)

To be clear: I think there is nothing wrong with what the organizers of these events are trying to do. I wish I had their entrepreneurial sprint/moxie.

I do think that these events are not a "Do" (in the context they've always been on FlyerTalk)...they are something different. Because they are not "Do's" they need to be treated differently...

+1

What do the sponsors get for their involvement?At the Chicago DO the sponsors had a session, which was optional, where they gave a talk of some sort. E.g. ITA Software was there and shared what they are, besides just a tool for constructing mileage running, what they use the matrix for (sales presentations), whether they intended to keep matrix1 running. I really don't know what the value to them of sponsoring and being in front of folks was.

Disney Vacations was a sponsor, and clearly they were pitching timeshares, which I'm not sure a lot of folks were interested in but from their perspective they had travelers who might be interested.

IIRC sponsors had the opportunity to have a booth set up at the hotel in Chicago as well, though I never went by the sponsor area.

I guess I ought to let Rick or toomanybooks speak to the sponsor piece, since I was just a speaker and don't have direct knowledge.

Similarly, with the Frequent Traveler University, for the most part I don't think the sponsors actually really get anything of value to them. My take from a distance (I don't work with the sponsors for that either, again I'm just speaking) is that tommy was getting them to sponsor the Frequent Traveler Awards, just as they had sponsored the Freddies (there the value proposition for some sponsors is clearer, as leadership of many of their loyalty program customers and potential customers are at the awards). And since tommy was getting them to support one event, I'd guess he managed to squeeze a little extra to help offset some costs and make it more affordable for folks to come. I can't imagine what benefit, say, an American Express might have from sponsoring an educational seminar or the sort...

If I'm mistaken about any of the above I apologize, I don't work with the sponsors :)

In addition...

Are the organizers collecting or keeping meeting points?

Do the speakers have the opportunity to advance their businesses? (Book sales, Ticket booking services, etc)
As far as meeting planner points, I have no idea. Some hotels it's an option to receive them, other times you can use what would be received in terms of points to pay down the bill. Have no idea how things are handled at any of the events referenced here, since I'm not involved on the business end of them at all. Not that it would bother me if someone did get points out of it. When a DO organizer gets everyone to pay for a dinner upfront and then they put the meal on their credit card, they get the points for that.

As far as whether a speaker has the opportunity to advance their business? Well most speakers don't have businesses. But let me speak for myself.

I donn't pitch my award booking business at all, because as I've explained the type of folks who come to these events are just not my target market. Someone looking to learn the tricks and tools of booking awards is just not the same person who wants to write a decent-sized check to have it all done for them.

And I'd also always rather still teach someone how to do it for themselves than I would take money to do it.

My customers tend to be busy professionals or higher net worth retirees, folks with lots of points often from credit card spend with no real idea how to go about using those points but with specific goals in mind, perhaps they're working with a luxury travel agent on specailty tours of Italy and figure they can use their points for their premium cabin airfare, or they've booked high end cruises and have a million Amex points or more but just don't even know how to get started in using them.

It's worth it to them to pay someone to untangle the web and handle everything soup to nuts.

When someone who is interested in learning the ins and outs contacts me, I usually push back and tell them I'd rather just offer a few suggestiosn and see if they can't learn to fish...

Anyway, so that's a long way of saying that when I accept an invite to speak at one of these things I'm not at all doing it to pitch my services, since I don't see the people at the event as my customer base.

Others may approach it differently, but then recall that at least to the best of my knowledge not many of the speakers have anything to sell. I don't recall any speaker who was not a sponsor at the Chicago event pitching services in any way.

Not that I'd see anything wrong with it, if the services were genuinely useful to the audience. But just answering as asked, no I haven't seen anything of the sort.

By the way, are we really that worried that someone who puts in hundreds of hours to host a DO might wind up with meeting planner points? Hah, I'd think that would be celebrated!

I mean, it's a legitimate part of the hotel programs. And it's really not that generous, except/unless there are major special prmotions like you sometimes saw at the depths of the Great Recession a couple of years ago but that are now long gone.

I don't knwo the details of any Priority Club program off the top of my head, but let's take round numbers from the Chicago Seminar DO. The host hotel is the Holiday Inn Elk Grove Village, let's call it 150 rooms and 2 room nights, so 300 room nights @ $100 per night. That's $30k.

Again, since off the top of my head I don't know how Priority Club awards points, let's go with the one I do know, Starwood... 1 point for every $3 of spend.

That's a whopping 10,000 Starpoints.

How awful, someone might collect those SPG points! I guess that someone who plans a meeting for 150-300 people, we must be really careful to make sure they don't wind up with 10,000 Starpoints out of it.

We also need a rule, I think, that says any DO organizer who pays for a meal on their credit card can only use a non-points earning credit card since we've got to make sure they don't get anything out of it personally! @:-)

Oh, and they need to sign a form indicating that they will never return to the restaurant or bar again, because otherwise the owner might comp them a drink or two as a thanks for bringing over the business. :rolleyes:

Yep, that's it. Hopefully the TalkBoard will act on these suggestions right away. :p

Now, if you think they're too stringent then I would suggest that either

1. Instead of a no points earning card requirement, the DO organizer only be permitted to pay for a meal with a Delta American Express. (If the DO is in Europe, a card which earns points only in the Flying Blue program will do.)

2. Instead of requiring that a DO organizer never return to the DO venue in the future, for fear they might be treated better as a rsult of organizing the DO, how about assuming they will get better treatment -- valuing the treatment up front (a standard risk-adjusted NPV calculation will be fine) -- and requiring them to pay upfront the amount of the presumed benefit in exchange for the privilege of hosting a DO?

I believe either of these proposals should be workable, and it's imperative that the TalkBoard begin voting on my proposals now, before start of business Monday morning in Europe. :p

1) I am an expert (among many other experts) and I think its fine to expect others to compensate me (us) for my (our) expertise/time/efforts.

2) I (and other speakers/organizers) have chosen not to receive the compensation it would be fine for us to receive.

3) Because we have generously chosen to give without gaining that which would be normal/fine for us to gain (financial benefit for our time/expertise), it is offensive for you to suggest we have done so.

4) Travel expense reimbursement (expenses that would not have been incurred if we did not choose to benefit the community in this manner) ≠ compensation.

Why shouldn't Do's evolve into bigger and better events that benefit the participants even if someone (horrors) makes $10 or even $1000?

In actuality, the Chicago Do was overrun by newbies unlikely to spend countless hours reading old FT threads. Brilliant idea to make it all available in one weekend and kudos to them for investing the time to improve their travel experience. We all know how clueless even our immediate family members can be about readily available benefits no matter how many times we try to explain. I've been here ten years and learned from everyone in Chicago, especially Gary (thank you!). I was amazed the speakers would give up their personal time, let alone spend it in a Holiday Inn room when we all have lots of SPG points :). And they're willing to do it again, God bless them. And thanks to Sharon who ran herself ragged working on the very successful raffle.

If FT is going to continue to grow and meet people's needs we should applaud new forms of delivering the valuable information shared here or elsewhere. Do we mock people that go to Weight Watchers instead of reading diet books? Take classes when there are online tutorials available? Or going non-profit, why go to church and fellowship and listen to a pastor when you can read the bible and listen to sermons at home? It's marvelous to get all that talent, experience and willingness to give back in one place. In the long run, no one can profit without delivering value and clearly the participants think these seminars do.

Why shouldn't Do's evolve into bigger and better events that benefit the participants even if someone (horrors) makes $10 or even $1000?

In actuality, the Chicago Do was overrun by newbies unlikely to spend countless hours reading old FT threads. Brilliant idea to make it all available in one weekend and kudos to them for investing the time to improve their travel experience. We all know how clueless even our immediate family members can be about readily available benefits no matter how many times we try to explain. I've been here ten years and learned from everyone in Chicago, especially Gary (thank you!). I was amazed the speakers would give up their personal time, let alone spend it in a Holiday Inn room when we all have lots of SPG points :). And they're willing to do it again, God bless them. And thanks to Sharon who ran herself ragged working on the very successful raffle.

If FT is going to continue to grow and meet people's needs we should applaud new forms of delivering the valuable information shared here or elsewhere. Do we mock people that go to Weight Watchers instead of reading diet books? Take classes when there are online tutorials available? Or going non-profit, why go to church and fellowship and listen to a pastor when you can read the bible and listen to sermons at home? It's marvelous to get all that talent, experience and willingness to give back in one place. In the long run, no one can profit without delivering value and clearly the participants think these seminars do.

Great post. And I'm not saying that due to the shout out re: the charity raffle. I love the new forms of delivering valuable info concept & your analogies. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Cheers.

I joined Flyertalk in June of 2009 after lurking for a few years. The impedes for my joining was that while returning from an independent Australia milage run I ran into LLM at LAX and noticed a FT luggage tag on her carry-on. Se was coming home from Ozfest. We got to talking about miles and she sort of chastised me for lurking and not contributing to the forum. Within a week I started contributing and feel that I have made an honest effort to contribute on a regular basis, especially in the coins thread.

When I has contacted early in 2010 by Ingy he stated that he wanted to have a Legends of Flyertalk session and offered me a time slot to make a presentation. I was humbled to even be considered to make a presentation, let alone at a "Legends" session.

At the time it was offered it was fully understood by me that I would be paying all of my own expenses. When the DO opened up for registration the speakers were given about 3 days advanced notice so we could book our own hotel at the conference location before it sold out. I booked the hotel with my own credit card fully expecting to pay my own way.

I do not have a vested interest in any of the companies, vendors or sponsors of this event. Until this week I did not even have a website. So there was not a financial incentive to present or promote myself at the event. I presented information because I was grateful for all of the Flyertalk predecessors who have paved the way for me to learn and I wanted to give back to this community. I was simply amazed at the kindness of all of the Flyertalker's present especially the ones who came up to me and said that they could not attend on Sunday and I gave at least 3 mini sessions in the bar on Saturday. The generosity of everyone who bought raffle tickets to raise money for charity, Ingy offering copies of his book to raise money for Wounded Warriors was simply overwhelming. Because of this, and I would have never thought of it on my own, I ended up giving 4 UAL regional upgrades to soldiers that I have run into in the airport.

My flight last year was paid for by using a UAL skykit (no charge) and I earned a bump voucher ($400 + one night at ORD Hilton) on the return. I paid for meals and registration for my +1. Off site meals, bar tab and the Sunday night hotel (Westin) was paid out of pocket.

This year after some back and forth emails with Ingy I agreed to speak again on another topic. I do not consider myself a travel expert, but I do have considerable experience both in business, finance and travel. I can't tell you how many times I have been told that I should write a book. My ability to navigate through the miles and points maze comes naturally for me, but I am always open to learning new tricks. When I agreed to speak this year again I had no expectation to be reimbursed for any of my expenses. The gesture has been made that if the finances work out the organizers are offering to reimburse for airfare (with a limit) and hotel at the meeting. Of course speakers are not subject to the meeting registration fee.

I feel that the gesture was kind, but my participation is not conditional on the offer. If the finances do not work out, there is no way that I would be upset. I can tell you that I put forth my best effort last year to present a polished session and will do so this year again. I am a professional and once I commit to something, my presentation will be the best it can be regardless of the "compensation".

Just a couple of weeks ago I was told by SanDiego1K that she considered that my presence at the Chicago Seminar Do was a draw for many attendees. As the second to last speaker, I could tell that there were many in the audience standing with their luggage and they did not leave until after my presentation. Each and every speaker was a draw for their specialty and that is why there were over 500 seats sold out in such a short period of time. It was a recognition of the value for the seminar. All of the financial aspects were always presented to the attendees in advance to the registration. Both Ingy and Toomanybooks have shown the highest level of professionalism it the organization and execution of the Chicago Seminar Do. The after event survey results were also made public and substantiate this.

The Chicago Seminar Do was not, is not, and I believe in the future will not be in the category of a commercial event.

Before the thread gets closed, I wonder if anyone involved can answer what I asked a few posts ago...

What do the sponsors get for their involvement?

In addition...

Are the organizers collecting or keeping meeting points?

Do the speakers have the opportunity to advance their businesses? (Books, travel agencies, Ticket booking services, etc)

To be clear: I think there is nothing wrong with what the organizers of these events are trying to do. I wish I had their entrepreneurial sprint/moxie.

I do think that these events are not a "Do" (in the context they've always been on FlyerTalk)...they are something different. Because they are not "Do's" they need to be treated differently...

1.Sponsors paid a fee to set up a table with their products and the chance to speak to 400+ frequent travelers. Some have already renewed this year

2. We did not get meeting points last year and are not getting them this year.

3. Anytime you speak in front of a group you have the opportunity to advance your personal business or product if you choose to. I introduced Gary and to the best of my recollection I did not mention his award booking service. I had to leave so did not hear his presentation. I did attend Lucky's presentation and again don't recall making his award booking service part of his introduction and it certainly was not a part of his presentation. Same holds true for VJ's presentation. VJ was not only a speaker but a sponsor paying for the right to talk about his Mileage Running assistance.

As far as my own potential for "profit" I did bring 100 copies of my book to the event and donated them along with all the proceeds to the non profit Independence Fund for Wounded Warriors. All profits from my book now go monthly to the Wounded Warriors Fund.

We tried to collect a meeting planners fee this time year so we could donate it back to the cause, but were unable to with the Holiday Inn. We were able to negotiate some comped rooms to help cover the cost of housing our speakers. It is my desire to cover their airfare from Sponsor Fees, but if unsuccessful every single registrant has read in the first post of this thread that we are budgeting part of their registration to cover that expense. They are 100% aware of the finances and will attend or not based on full disclosure.

And if we have any extra funds, they will all be donated to charities picked by myself, toomanybooks (as organizers) and SkiAdcock (running the raffle and a TB member)

Some clarification & speaking as a regular FTer & not as a TB member...

I've not yet committed to ORD Sem Do 2 yet due to checking my schedule & seeing if I'm available, but I did say that if I do attend (and I'll let them know soon) that I will chair the charity raffle again. We raised a lot of $$ for charity, and I am so proud of my fellow FTers for their generosity, and the FTers who stepped up to the plate who helped me w/ selling tickets. And we got the appropriate legal permit from Elk Grove Village to actually hold the raffle; it was all above board.

As a regular attendee of CSD1 I paid my own registration, hotel and transportation. After the event was over, ingy gave me a Marriott gift card as a thank you. It was not mentioned before & I was not expecting it. I signed up hoping to learn more about miles & points in the sessions, and seeing LOTS of other FTers in a social environment. The sessions I attended I learned a lot. I was not able to attend them all due to charity raffle activities, and I missed out on the meals because I was still running around selling tickets.

What ingy, toomanybooks & other FTers don't know (save 1) is that I helped subsidize the charity prizes last year. I had lined up electronics, hotel stays, as prizes & was quite excited about what FTers could win. But some of the people dropped out on what they committed to & did so at the last minute (grr). So I spent $350 of my own $$ to buy the Kindle and other electronics that were given away as prizes because I didn't want to let FTers down. I'm not mentioning it now for any kudos (some would say I was stoo-pid to buy the stuff), but it goes back to the spirit of making the event the fab one that it was.

I personally don't think the ORD Sem Do is a commercial venture, and I really like LLM's concept of different ways of delivering info to FTers. While I get that some FTers think Dos are only social events, the reality is that they're more than that. They're also venues for sharing info. If one venue requires an admin fee to cover the meals, a/v, and yes part of speakers expenses, I'm ok w/ that for myself as long as everything is disclosed up front. Other FTers can make the decision for themselves, but given the attendees last year & the # that have signed up already for this year others seem to feel the same way.

On a dif note. I've organized the President London Do for several years. I can probably count on 2-3 fingers the times I've put the main meal on my cc, and that was due to other FTers encouraging me to do so. In fact, one restaurant we went to for a few years in a row I made arrangements for them to do individual credit cards - all 36 of them! I actually pay cash the entire weekend nowadays rather than try to put the bill on my credit card. There are too many FTers who would like the points & quite frankly life's too short & there are more important things than grabbing a bill for points, although I realize that's blasphemy here.

Cheers.

Mr Pickles,
Any chance you and other presenters at the DO's post your presentations?

Would be nice for those who cannot attend for various reasons to learn from the savviest travelers.

Hope FT moderators can coordinate something for presentation material posted on FT on the next DO!!!!!!!!!

Did anyone post a detailed summary on the seminar details?

I joined Flyertalk in June of 2009 after lurking for a few years. The impedes for my joining was that while returning from an independent Australia milage run I ran into LLM at LAX and noticed a FT luggage tag on her carry-on. Se was coming home from Ozfest. We got to talking about miles and she sort of chastised me for lurking and not contributing to the forum. Within a week I started contributing and feel that I have made an honest effort to contribute on a regular basis, especially in the coins thread.

When I has contacted early in 2010 by Ingy he stated that he wanted to have a Legends of Flyertalk session and offered me a time slot to make a presentation. I was humbled to even be considered to make a presentation, let alone at a "Legends" session.

At the time it was offered it was fully understood by me that I would be paying all of my own expenses. When the DO opened up for registration the speakers were given about 3 days advanced notice so we could book our own hotel at the conference location before it sold out. I booked the hotel with my own credit card fully expecting to pay my own way.

I do not have a vested interest in any of the companies, vendors or sponsors of this event. Until this week I did not even have a website. So there was not a financial incentive to present or promote myself at the event. I presented information because I was grateful for all of the Flyertalk predecessors who have paved the way for me to learn and I wanted to give back to this community. I was simply amazed at the kindness of all of the Flyertalker's present especially the ones who came up to me and said that they could not attend on Sunday and I gave at least 3 mini sessions in the bar on Saturday. The generosity of everyone who bought raffle tickets to raise money for charity, Ingy offering copies of his book to raise money for Wounded Warriors was simply overwhelming. Because of this, and I would have never thought of it on my own, I ended up giving 4 UAL regional upgrades to soldiers that I have run into in the airport.

My flight last year was paid for by using a UAL skykit (no charge) and I earned a bump voucher ($400 + one night at ORD Hilton) on the return. I paid for meals and registration for my +1. Off site meals, bar tab and the Sunday night hotel (Westin) was paid out of pocket.

This year after some back and forth emails with Ingy I agreed to speak again on another topic. I do not consider myself a travel expert, but I do have considerable experience both in business, finance and travel. I can't tell you how many times I have been told that I should write a book. My ability to navigate through the miles and points maze comes naturally for me, but I am always open to learning new tricks. When I agreed to speak this year again I had no expectation to be reimbursed for any of my expenses. The gesture has been made that if the finances work out the organizers are offering to reimburse for airfare (with a limit) and hotel at the meeting. Of course speakers are not subject to the meeting registration fee.

I feel that the gesture was kind, but my participation is not conditional on the offer. If the finances do not work out, there is no way that I would be upset. I can tell you that I put forth my best effort last year to present a polished session and will do so this year again. I am a professional and once I commit to something, my presentation will be the best it can be regardless of the "compensation".

Just a couple of weeks ago I was told by SanDiego1K that she considered that my presence at the Chicago Seminar Do was a draw for many attendees. As the second to last speaker, I could tell that there were many in the audience standing with their luggage and they did not leave until after my presentation. Each and every speaker was a draw for their specialty and that is why there were over 500 seats sold out in such a short period of time. It was a recognition of the value for the seminar. All of the financial aspects were always presented to the attendees in advance to the registration. Both Ingy and Toomanybooks have shown the highest level of professionalism it the organization and execution of the Chicago Seminar Do. The after event survey results were also made public and substantiate this.

The Chicago Seminar Do was not, is not, and I believe in the future will not be in the category of a commercial event.

Did anyone post a detailed summary on the seminar details?

Several people wrote a summary. Did anyone write a step by step guide? No, because there was so much information that most attendees were in awe by the facy that they were able to get in.

I have no doubt that this single event has the potential to grow to a larger venue, over 3 days and over 1000 attendees with multiple track sessions. Many attendees were tweeting information and summaries and it had its own twitter hash tag #CSDO1, this years event is #CSDO2.

I don't recall anyone writing a detailed summary for any DO with all of the tricks of the trade outlined and charted for the benefit of those choose to not attend.

Is there a posting you can direct me too? All I see is a high level comment that someone attended DO event, met a few experts, and learned good ideas for the future.

Doesn't sound like with all of the forums of the community, travel etc that anyone attempted a good summary so others that couldn't attend can learn.

Isn't that what FT is all about? FT's sharing experiences and information?

Maybe this can change for the April 2011 DO in NY, Chicago October 2011, an informative summary of the event.

Several people wrote a summary. Did anyone write a step by step guide? No, because there was so much information that most attendees were in awe by the facy that they were able to get in.

I have no doubt that this single event has the potential to grow to a larger venue, over 3 days and over 1000 attendees with multiple track sessions. Many attendees were tweeting information and summaries and it had its own twitter hash tag #CSDO1, this years event is #CSDO2.

I don't recall anyone writing a detailed summary for any DO with all of the tricks of the trade outlined and charted for the benefit of those choose to not attend.

Dupe.

Lots of good information on this thread. I'm glad I started it. ;):p

I do think this is a very timely discussion.

As I've said from the start, what *I* see is creeping commercialism. Maybe simply because, as a someone with lots of experience with meeting planning, I see the potential.

A 'business side' of this sort of endeavor, particularly with big-name sponsors involved, has clearly evolved. From all I have read, no one is making a killing on this...yet. Just some free plane tickets and comped hotel rooms and so forth. And sure, in the past, any Randy-involved events were rightly exempt from the TOS no-commercial-venture requirements, because the point of the commercial prohibition was to make sure that no one made money or gained benefit here but Randy or someone else with his express permission . But Randy ain't here no more. And so Randy-type commercial events are no longer TOS exempt...are they?

Bottom line: as skofarrell says, these aren't really Dos. They are a product (FF expertise) that are being marketed hard for a fee, sold and are bought. Perhaps on a 'non-profit' basis, but a transactional ventures nonetheless. And the reality is that 'non-profit' events like the CES have evolved into incredibly profitable ventures for their sponsors.

I'm at the point where I'm almost ready to make a specific recommendation to the TalkBoard to make to make to IB. But before I do that, I may want to try to sell my Many Points seminar to IB. ;):D:p:eek:

I'm at the point where I'm almost ready to make a specific recommendation to the TalkBoard to make to make to IB. But before I do that, I may want to try to sell my Many Points seminar to IB. ;):D:p:eek:

Good luck with that. Just in case you missed it, the TalkBoard has already discussed this last year and our Community Director has already spoken: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1091196-appropriate-charge-administrative-fee-ft-events.html :rolleyes:

And if they read this entire thread and everyone's attempt to get you to understand something extremely simple, I'm quite sure the conclusion will be the same.

koko,
Instead of IMPROVING the communication of the "DO Seminars" these moderators only want to defend what has been done in the past and not help more people who don't attend in select cities.

The moderators should ask the panel of experts for the summaries of their presentations and post.

And if they read this entire thread and everyone's attempt to get you to understand something extremely simple, I'm quite sure the conclusion will be the same.

I have indeed read the whole thread and have been following it for the last four days with interest, but we're now getting to the point where things are just being rehashed. I haven't seen any new information posted lately.

New Information:
Start with a commitment to get a posting of the Do Seminar in NY in April 2011.

That would be a start to improving the communication.

I have indeed read the whole thread and have been following it for the last four days with interest, but we're now getting to the point where things are just being rehashed. I haven't seen any new information posted lately.

Did anyone post a detailed summary on the seminar details?Recording was prohibited but IIRC mrpickles mentioned filming them to sell to those who could not attend, with the proceeds going to charity. He and the other Legends were amazing and a special kudo also to mrpalert for his zillions of slides on things that would never occur even to the most committed FT'er.

For future seminars I think many of would pay for a transcript or video reminder. I'd be happy to pay extra for a download link, especially for events I am unable to attend.

I'm suggesting either an alteration to the TOS or the creation of a separate forum for commercial ventures that are not done in the original Do spirit of all pay their own share.


are you seriously claiming that these are commercial ventures?

Or are you just saying that you don't personally approve how the concept of a DO has evolved? (The CD has already given her opinion of the fee issue, and that seems to be the opposite of your point about the "DO spirit" in one of those cases, I would imagine.)

I think it's the latter, and I think using the term "commercial venture" to describe the current state of any of the events you have used as an example is pretty ridiculous.

-David

Interesting. AA 2MM and got 6M extra miles over 3 years.

If its a question, consider all the cheap US miles from promos.


Back on topic:

Simple solutuon. Update FT glossary.
DO= the old fashioned DO
Seminar DO= a developed DO where it might/or might not be (in that case due to sponsors, so still "commercial") a fee to attend.

Just refine this and we are good to go:D

If its a question, consider all the cheap US miles from promos.


Back on topic:

Simple solutuon. Update FT glossary.
DO= the old fashioned DO
Seminar DO= a developed DO where it might/or might not be (in that case due to sponsors, so still "commercial") a fee to attend.

Just refine this and we are good to go:D

+1

Or just plain "Seminar".

And, how about have the sponsors/administrators of these seminars buy ads if they want to promote their Seminar on FlyerTalk?

+1

Or just plain "Seminar".

And, how about have the sponsors/administrators of these seminars buy ads if they want to promote their Seminar on FlyerTalk?

The organizers won't buy ads to promote the gatherings because there's no profit in them to do so. Why should members of the community pay a tax to Internet Brands in order to put on events to help other members of the community?

With no profit, the events either won't be held or won't be shared here. The only people that really lose are the members of this community. Great idea! @:-)

And as for sponsors, sounds great, no more sponsors for educational events/gatherings. Sponsors give the money to Internet Brands instead of reducing the out of pocket costs for community members. Another great idea! @:-)

I kind of stumbled across this thread, which has been very entertaining!

Personally, I would feel guilty paying just $49 to attend the Frequent Traveller University. I am a wealthy man from my years in finance and I would actually feel uncomfortable that people were paying their own way and giving up their own time in order to give formal presentations to me. It is the least I would expect that the contributors got their costs covered, to be honest. If you asked the attendees, I'm sure most of them would agree. Charging $59 rather than $49 would generate an extra $5k from 500 people, no-one would be out of pocket and I doubt the majority would have any problems with that.

There is also an underlying current here that commerical is BAD. It's not. If Internet Brands had stepped up to the plate 2 years ago and tried to organise its own seminar day, charging $99 and in turn covering the costs of the speakers and making, say, $20/head profit, I doubt we would have seen many complaints. People would probably have come forward to say that they were pleased that IB was developing the community in this way. We should be grateful that people are willing to do it on a voluntary basis.

+1

Or just plain "Seminar".

And, how about have the sponsors/administrators of these seminars buy ads if they want to promote their Seminar on FlyerTalk?

Easy. Pull the word DO out of the title and call it Chicago Seminars 2011.

As I stated early in the thread, it is not in the budget to pay for advertising of the event. If asked to pay for advertising we will ask the thread be closed and you can follow the updates on different forums and blogs.

I'm sitting in a beach Vila on Rangali Island in the Maldives - I made it here solely by gleaning information for gleff, ingy, and other FT threads. Try and convince my wife that gleff and ingy aren't diety!

Gleff and ingy have always taken the time to answer my inane questions - always for free.

They even inspired me to start my own blog to share information about travel tips to my fellow EMBA students.

My point is that everyone has always been so willing to share tips tricks and information - in the same spirit as the DO seminars.

I'm new school FT and am happy to pay a registration fee to the organizers with nary a thought as to what they do with it.

You know what? This is just a lot of noise about nothing.

-David

deleted

1. I asked if anyone had a referral link of the key comment details at previous DO? No response

2. I asked if FT focals or other presenters at the DO in the future might write a detailed summary and post on FT? No response.

I can see why this remains an ongoing mixed discussion topic.





I joined Flyertalk in June of 2009 after lurking for a few years. The impedes for my joining was that while returning from an independent Australia milage run I ran into LLM at LAX and noticed a FT luggage tag on her carry-on. Se was coming home from Ozfest. We got to talking about miles and she sort of chastised me for lurking and not contributing to the forum. Within a week I started contributing and feel that I have made an honest effort to contribute on a regular basis, especially in the coins thread.

When I has contacted early in 2010 by Ingy he stated that he wanted to have a Legends of Flyertalk session and offered me a time slot to make a presentation. I was humbled to even be considered to make a presentation, let alone at a "Legends" session.

At the time it was offered it was fully understood by me that I would be paying all of my own expenses. When the DO opened up for registration the speakers were given about 3 days advanced notice so we could book our own hotel at the conference location before it sold out. I booked the hotel with my own credit card fully expecting to pay my own way.

I do not have a vested interest in any of the companies, vendors or sponsors of this event. Until this week I did not even have a website. So there was not a financial incentive to present or promote myself at the event. I presented information because I was grateful for all of the Flyertalk predecessors who have paved the way for me to learn and I wanted to give back to this community. I was simply amazed at the kindness of all of the Flyertalker's present especially the ones who came up to me and said that they could not attend on Sunday and I gave at least 3 mini sessions in the bar on Saturday. The generosity of everyone who bought raffle tickets to raise money for charity, Ingy offering copies of his book to raise money for Wounded Warriors was simply overwhelming. Because of this, and I would have never thought of it on my own, I ended up giving 4 UAL regional upgrades to soldiers that I have run into in the airport.

My flight last year was paid for by using a UAL skykit (no charge) and I earned a bump voucher ($400 + one night at ORD Hilton) on the return. I paid for meals and registration for my +1. Off site meals, bar tab and the Sunday night hotel (Westin) was paid out of pocket.

This year after some back and forth emails with Ingy I agreed to speak again on another topic. I do not consider myself a travel expert, but I do have considerable experience both in business, finance and travel. I can't tell you how many times I have been told that I should write a book. My ability to navigate through the miles and points maze comes naturally for me, but I am always open to learning new tricks. When I agreed to speak this year again I had no expectation to be reimbursed for any of my expenses. The gesture has been made that if the finances work out the organizers are offering to reimburse for airfare (with a limit) and hotel at the meeting. Of course speakers are not subject to the meeting registration fee.

I feel that the gesture was kind, but my participation is not conditional on the offer. If the finances do not work out, there is no way that I would be upset. I can tell you that I put forth my best effort last year to present a polished session and will do so this year again. I am a professional and once I commit to something, my presentation will be the best it can be regardless of the "compensation".

Just a couple of weeks ago I was told by SanDiego1K that she considered that my presence at the Chicago Seminar Do was a draw for many attendees. As the second to last speaker, I could tell that there were many in the audience standing with their luggage and they did not leave until after my presentation. Each and every speaker was a draw for their specialty and that is why there were over 500 seats sold out in such a short period of time. It was a recognition of the value for the seminar. All of the financial aspects were always presented to the attendees in advance to the registration. Both Ingy and Toomanybooks have shown the highest level of professionalism it the organization and execution of the Chicago Seminar Do. The after event survey results were also made public and substantiate this.

The Chicago Seminar Do was not, is not, and I believe in the future will not be in the category of a commercial event.

1. I asked if anyone had a referral link of the key comment details at previous DO? No response

2. I asked if FT focals or other presenters at the DO in the future might write a detailed summary and post on FT? No response.

I can see why this remains an ongoing mixed discussion topic.

In this case, no response is a quite understandable response, IMO.

1. Im pretty sure there is no link as such. The ideas and details are spread all over, so I guess the best reply would be www.flyertalk.com:D

2. No response, just means that at this stage there are no one that are willing to offer MORE of their spare time than already devoted. They do it all for free, often with own costs, and including what can be interpreted as bashing on the forum towards them. But I do think that almost all of the info is already on FT, and if not, there are thousands of people here offering help on a daily basis- for free^

Actually mrpickles answered your question in post #147:

"Several people wrote a summary. Did anyone write a step by step guide? No, because there was so much information that most attendees were in awe by the fact that they were able to get in.

I have no doubt that this single event has the potential to grow to a larger venue, over 3 days and over 1000 attendees with multiple track sessions. Many attendees were tweeting information and summaries and it had its own twitter hash tag #CSDO1, this years event is #CSDO2.

I don't recall anyone writing a detailed summary for any DO with all of the tricks of the trade outlined and charted for the benefit of those choose to not attend."

but travelkid does a nice summary as well ;)

Cheers.

Some of last years presenters provided their slides. Some did not.

This year it will again be up to the presenters if they want to share their info.

The general feeling has been that if you post how to book the $2 First Class fare NYC to London online it will last only minutes. Same holds true for information shared at the Chicago Seminars 2011

Why not come join us?

In fairness, not everyone has that weekend free or can afford the air/transpo (the admin fee to cover meals, etc, is the minor expense). But it's unrealistic I think to expect copies of power point presentations or line item speeches to be provided to all 240,000 FTers.

But besides the extra work, I don't think not providing that info is due to wanting to keep it only amongst the attendees vs non-attendees, but more to avoid giving up a heads up to airlines, hotels, car rentals, etc, on methods that best take advantage of the travel experience. ;) And in the case of the advanced mileage run seminar, that's one you really needed to be there & even then it could be quite confusing. A simple power point isn't going to explain it all.

There have been other seminar dos, such as Ann Abor organized by bikeguy every year. While I've not attended, I never expected the folk presenting there to send me powerpoints. I couldn't make it or chose not to attend, so I missed out on the info provided. Shrug. My choice. When I've not attended more social dos such as Ozfest or even a simple meeting up over meals & tips/techniques were discussed amongst folk, I didn't expect the attendees of those events to send me a write-up.

As travelkid said, a lot of the info is available on FT in one forum or shape or another. It's just packaged more tightly in a seminar setting.

Cheers.

I disagree with your feedback.

This is an OPPORTUNITY for FT LEADERSHIP(moderators) to try to coordinate a summary posting from the presenters of the DO or some who attends to benefit FT site.

Unfortunately, NOBODY from FT LEADERSHIP wants to be pro active just ignores positive feedback on FTb site improvement



In fairness, not everyone has that weekend free or can afford the air/transpo (the admin fee to cover meals, etc, is the minor expense). But it's unrealistic I think to expect copies of power point presentations or line item speeches to be provided to all 240,000 FTers.

But besides the extra work, I don't think not providing that info is due to wanting to keep it only amongst the attendees vs non-attendees, but more to avoid giving up a heads up to airlines, hotels, car rentals, etc, on methods that best take advantage of the travel experience. ;) And in the case of the advanced mileage run seminar, that's one you really needed to be there & even then it could be quite confusing. A simple power point isn't going to explain it all.

There have been other seminar dos, such as Ann Abor organized by bikeguy every year. While I've not attended, I never expected the folk presenting there to send me powerpoints. I couldn't make it or chose not to attend, so I missed out on the info provided. Shrug. My choice. When I've not attended more social dos such as Ozfest or even a simple meeting up over meals & tips/techniques were discussed amongst folk, I didn't expect the attendees of those events to send me a write-up.

As travelkid said, a lot of the info is available on FT in one forum or shape or another. It's just packaged more tightly in a seminar setting.

Cheers.

As travelkid said, a lot of the info is available on FT in one forum or shape or another. It's just packaged more tightly in a seminar setting.


exactly. bingo. ding-ding-ding.

scattered- FT; distilled- Seminar

I disagree with your feedback.

This is an OPPORTUNITY for FT LEADERSHIP(moderators) to try to coordinate a summary posting from the presenters of the DO or some who attends to benefit FT site.

Unfortunately, NOBODY from FT LEADERSHIP wants to be pro active just ignores positive feedback on FTb site improvement

Can I offer a constructive suggestion?

Are you able to be there? You haven't shared your constraint -- whether it's financial, and I mean I wouldn't be surprised if someone offered you a mileage ticket and plenty of people will be sharing rooms -- or work-related, etc.

If you could possibly be there, sounds like you could coordinate such a project.

If you aren't going to be there, you seem to have a strong desire to see it happen. You could join the threads discussing the events and take on the role of seeing to it that it happens. You could recruit volunteers who will be attending, get them to take notes. Maybe get a couple of different people assigned for each session, to assure redundancy and full coverage. And then you could even have them send you their notes, which could be collated and edited for publication. You might send the notes back out to a group of attendees to check for accuracy and missed items before going live.

But then you'd be performing a service for the community, instead of complaining that a service isn't being provided to you. @:-)

And if they read this entire thread and everyone's attempt to get you to understand something extremely simple, I'm quite sure the conclusion will be the same.
are you seriously claiming that these are commercial ventures?
Whenever two groups of people get frustrated that the other group cannot comprehend their 'simple point,' as seems to be the case here I find it helpful to think about each others perspectives.

So let me assure you that I am hearing you that those on the 'inside' of these seminars believe that:

- They are a lot of hard work
- They are good for the community
- While comps and freebies are offered and taken, no one makes better than their day-job hourly rate in comp value.
- Expenses match income, or the balance goes to charity.
- While organizer/speaker/other travel products may be pumped, there is more value to the seminar customer than to the organizer and/or speaker
- Sponsors defray attendee costs but do not drive the agenda
- Organizers and speakers feel they are providing great value to attendees often at a personal cost or sacrifice.

I agree that those are all wonderful things. And I understand the defensiveness that many in this thread have had: you feel like some people (myself included) are throwing stones at your altruism and hard work.

But.

Take a second to think about these events from the perspective of an 'outsider' looking at these events.

A thread pops up in community that says 'Sign up for the Frequent Flyer Seminar!' One opens the thread and is says 'For only $49 you get a full day of seminars with some of the frequent travel community's best minds!'

The rules are somewhat strict: you must book to the room block or your reservation will be canceled. No recording or video at the events.

Thinking about it from that perspective, it walks like a purely commercial event. It quacks like a purely commercial event.

I get it that this is an evolution from the Dos and is still largely a volunteer effort. But I submit that just like it's hard to notice your own kid growing, when an outsider sees your little precious for the first time they don't see all the hard work and gradual growth. They see the fully formed person.

And with all the marketing focus on the transactional nature of the 'cash for information' and particularly with the addition of sponsors they are looking more and more like commercial events.

Again, I'm not trying to shut the seminars down. I'm not even throwing stones at them.

But when I look at the TOS, it says:

Commercial posts. Posts containing promotional messages for commercial products or services - including but not limited to Internet sites, business advertisements and solicitations to donate miles or points are prohibited and will be removed. FlyerTalk is not a marketplace and nothing is to be offered for sale or conditioned on an exchange of money or barter.

So the insiders say that despite appearances, these are NOT commercial events. Depending on how you define commercial maybe they aren't (by the 'for a profit' definition) or maybe they are (by the involving transactions involving commodities definition or especially the sponsored or paid for by an advertiser definition).

This increasing ambiguity is precisely why I started this thread. To get the TB to think about what can be done either in terms of TOS amendments or a new forum to deal with it and accommodate the Seminars in light of the TOS.

The organizers won't buy ads to promote the gatherings because there's no profit in them to do so. Why should members of the community pay a tax to Internet Brands in order to put on events to help other members of the community?

With no profit, the events either won't be held or won't be shared here. The only people that really lose are the members of this community. Great idea! @:-)

And as for sponsors, sounds great, no more sponsors for educational events/gatherings. Sponsors give the money to Internet Brands instead of reducing the out of pocket costs for community members. Another great idea! @:-)


gleff,

With all due respect, how much more effort needs to be expended to transform these events from "not for profit" to "for profit?" I'm guessing a couple of hours to create an LCC and upping the entry fee from $49 to $99. The infrastructure is in place...online registration...vendor relationships...speaker relationships... come on...

If the founders aren't thinking of taking this idea to every hampton inn in every major city, then they are "nutz." They need to do if before someone else does it for them.

Is your point until they become "for profit", they should be treated like a normal, traditional "Do"? As it stands today there are people making money of these "Dos", the aforementioned sponsors...Disney Vacation Club, etc. You don't see that in a normal "Do". You don't see practically anything these guys are doing at seminars at a normal "Do". I think this is where koko is coming from...

koko your rendition is actually 80% fair which is a start, but you have stated some things very inaccurately, I don't know wheher you are purposely misrepresenting them because they've been clarified and explained several times or whether you are so stuck in your own position that you cannot be open to being corrected on several points.

But let me try one more time, as it may well make a difference, on the assumption that you really are trying to be fair-minded here.

- They are a lot of hard work
- They are good for the community


So far we're spot on

- While comps and freebies are offered and taken, no one makes better than their day-job hourly rate in comp value.

This is not the position anyone has taken, at least it's not the position that Rick or Tommy or I have taken. Someone somewhere in the thread may have said this, but it's not how these events have operated.

It's not that anyone is taking less than their day job rate.

It's that no one is being compensated for their time, at all.

In fact, in general the organizers are actually cash negative for their organizing, they're not even being reimbursed for their expenses in putting the event on.

It's not fair to say that Rick or Tommy is just taking less than they'd make at work for the same time. They aren't taking anything.

Now, a comped room is NOT the same thing as you've described 'taking less than their hourly rate'. It's the lack of an expense.

I think it helps to fairly portray what is actually being said, and what could conceivably be offered.

Cash to Rick or Tommy or anyone else in exchange for their time is just not on the table with any of these events and I don't hear anyone advocating it.

As I explained earlier, I even had an exchange with Rick where I said "great, I hope there'll be enough money left so you can have a nice dinner with your wife at the end of this because you have to give up so much spouse time to put it together" and he replied that he wouldn't think of taking a personal dinner with his wife, even, out of the event dollars.

- Expenses match income, or the balance goes to charity.
- While organizer/speaker/other travel products may be pumped,
Correct

there is more value to the seminar customer than to the organizer and/or speakerAny 'value' to the organizer or speaker is deminimus or speculative at best. Think about my South Park underwear gnomes example/ First step steal lots of unerwear. Third step profit!! It's that mystery second step that at least I haven't figured out in all of this, and that certainly hasn't happened for anyone yet that I'm aware of!


- Sponsors defray attendee costs but do not drive the agenda Correct

- Organizers and speakers feel they are providing great value to attendees often at a personal cost or sacrifice.
Hope so!

I agree that those are all wonderful things. And I understand the defensiveness that many in this thread have had: you feel like some people (myself included) are throwing stones are your altruism and hard work.
You are, actually. You have been incredibly patronizing, up until this last post. You've been incredibly snarky. Re-read some of your posts. You started out in the generic and made it very personal.. ;)

A thread pops up in community that says 'Sign up for the Frequent Flyer Seminar!' One opens the thread and is says 'For only $49 you get a full day of seminars with some of the frequent travel community's best minds!'
And that $49 or $75 covers meals, room rental cost, supplies like name tags, etc.

The rules are somewhat strict: you must book to the room block or your reservation will be canceled. No recording or video at the events.
Actually, not quite.

* Frequent Traveler University has no such rule about using a room block
* Chicago Seminar DO doesn't require you to use a room block to participate in the seminar. In order to ensure that the entire host hotel is only for frequent flyers there aren't supposed to be any reservations made outside of the event link, and the hotel plans to proactively fix any mistakes/glitches they would go back and reach out to others that they couldn't honor the reservation.

That's about ensuring a 100% frequent flyer weekend at that hotel, and nothing else!

Thinking about it from that perspective, it walks like a purely commercial event. It quacks like a purely commercial event.


No, it doesn't, since it's no different than prepaying the costs of a LondonDO or a SinDO or an Ozfest. If prepaying meal expenses (or some amoutn less than actual meal expenses) makes it commercial, then your analysis is that most of the large gatherings are commercial. Because these are no more commrecial than those are.

It's only when you read the conspiracy into this, not supported by the facts, and ignore the explanations, that you can come to that conclusion. :(

But when I look at the TOS, it says:



Yes, the TOS references "promotional messages for commercial products or services" but again, you've got to stretch really hard to (inaccurately) portray these as commercial products or services when folks are just being asked to cover the costs of meals and lodging for a volunteer effort.

Surely these are less commercial than the services that do discuss themselves here, like KVS or Award Nexus or Expert Flyer, or for that matter discussions by representatives of travel companies like Starwood Lurker or UA Insider whose presence i think we all value.

But again, there's nothing at all commercial about a volunteer effort where participants are asked to cover their expenses for hotel, meals, supplies, event space and no one is making a profit.

So the insiders say that despite appearances, these are NOT commercial events.

Not despite the appearances, only despite your pre-conceptions which persist in spite of the facts.

Depending on how you define commercial maybe they aren't (by the 'for a profit' definition) or maybe they are (by the involving transactions involving commodities definition or especially the sponsored or paid for by an advertiser definition).

To take your 'transaction' definition then prepaying a meal by paypal in advance of a DO is commercial. Sorry, your tortured definition does not fly.

Why does a sponsor make something commercial? Sponsors regularly fund all sorts of pure charity efforts, all over the world, is Medicines sans Frontieres a commercial venture?

This increasing ambiguity is why precisely why I started this thread. To get the TB to think and what can be done either in terms of TOS amendments or a new forum to deal with it and accommodate the Seminars in light of the TOS.

It's only ambiguous when you torture the facts, that have been explained over and over.

Easy. Pull the word DO out of the title and call it Chicago Seminars 2011.

As I stated early in the thread, it is not in the budget to pay for advertising of the event. If asked to pay for advertising we will ask the thread be closed and you can follow the updates on different forums and blogs.

You're missing the point. Your endeavor has a budget. Your endeavor has business partners (your sponsors). Your endeavor is pulling attendees from FlyerTalk. Your endeavor is not a "Do."

I think it is up to the Talkboard to decide if you can advertise your endeavor on Community or not.

gleff,

With all due respect, how much more effort needs to be expended to transform these events from "not for profit" to "for profit?" I'm guessing a couple of hours to create an LCC and upping the entry fee from $49 to $99. The infrastructure is in place...online registration...vendor relationships...speaker relationships... come on...

If the founders aren't thinking of taking this idea to every hampton inn in every major city, then they are "nutz." They need to do if before someone else does it for them.

Is your point until they become "for profit", they should be treated like a normal, traditional "Do"? As it stands today there are people making money of these "Dos", the aforementioned sponsors...Disney Vacation Club, etc. You don't see that in a normal "Do". You don't see practically anything these guys are doing at seminars at a normal "Do". I think this is where koko is coming from...

The idea that you could take a not for profit event, show folks that it's so valuable that they would pay more for it, and begin charging isn't a reason not to allow the not for profit event. No, I do not think anyone has a vision of making these for-profit, and the point at which is becomes for-profit is precisely the line.

As long as no one is making a profit, and any excess/leftover funds are donated to charity, then no I do not see a problem here at all.

The TOS does have something to say about commercial promotion. It does not say what kind of DOs are permissable and what are not, what forms of activities the members of the community can get together to put on!

It may not seem like a tradiitonal DO, Rick figured out last year a new way to provide value to the community that was different than a lot of what came before (though that had plenty of precedent, eg the long-running Ann Arbor Arts Fair DO that is very much liek this).

Frankly, I think there is a lot of room where many of the better events, like the really great DC event at Dulles at GoingAway put on last spring, many folks would pay for because they're frankly just darned awesome and provide a lot of value. but members of the community have given a gift to other members, by bringing their talents to the table for free.

But because the events ARE great, the kind of things some MIGHT pay for, isn't a reason not to have them! :cool:

You're missing the point. Your endeavor has a budget. Your endeavor has business partners (your sponsors). Your endeavor is pulling attendees from FlyerTalk. Your endeavor is not a "Do."

I think it is up to the Talkboard to decide if you can advertise your endeavor on Community or not.

I think that's really dangerous. I don't think the TalkBoard ought to decide if Rick's event should be shared with the community or not. Rather, the Talkboard should certainly look at the site guidelines and see whether they still make sense.

And the point of the discussion here is to flush out what the community is thinking, in order to inform that discussion.

Having a budget doesn't make something commercial. Any well-run DO will have a budget.

Now, the TalkBoard could recommend a rule that no DO can take in sponsors. I think that would be unfortunate, since it's a creative way of keeping costs down for the community. I think it's community-enhancing. But if folks were really uncomfortable then something could be done there.

Of course a line or definition of what would consitute sponsorship would have to be delineated, what about a Continental DO as in the past, or one of the Delta mega events or last year's Starwood event? Those are surely sponsored, by travel providers with an interest in advancing their own business, and yet they have been both hugely successful and popular and also hugely value creating for the community. ^

Ask the speakers if they mind you doing a summary of their presentations (I don't for mine) and show the leadership of FT what needs to be done, then do it yourself.

You are now given the opportunity to contribute to the community. Will you or will you just complain?

But it can't be for profit. This is an all volunteer not for profit event.

PS: Koko: What was it you wanted to volunteer to this community volunteer event for the benefit of the community?

Thank you for correcting some of my points, gleff.

But you are still looking at this issue from the perspective of an insider.

Now focus on MY perspective.

Let's say you went to an IBB about dog grooming. In the community section there was a thread 'Come to the Dog grooming seminar!' You open it and it says 'For only $49 you can share a room with some of the world's BEST dog groomers.'

Does that look like a commercial solicitation to you? Because it does to me.

You say the line is 'for profit vs. non-profit.'

But who the heck is going to police THAT!? Are Cholula, crissxb and Jenbel going to have to don green eye shades and audit every venture that posts on community claiming to be non-profit? Heck, remember JanAz's daughter's charity kerfuffle? That organization was a non-profit. Why can't THEY post solicitations on Community?

That's why I say the line is something else...and I tend to think it's more along the lines of 'a Do is an event where every attendee pays at least their equal share of costs.' But I'm trying to leave that to the TB to figure out.

I get it that bigger 'flash mobs' require greater organization. But at some point all that organization and the event it is organizing sure do look and act like commercial ventures.

You mention KVS, SeatExpert, etc. I agree that THOSE are incredibly valuable contributions to the very frequent flyer space too.

That's why I also think it makes sense to have a 'Miles and Points Products Marketplace' forum on FT. Where seminars, books, bidding websites, award availability products, award booking products, etc, etc, etc COULD be talked about by their owners and marketers as well as their customers and potential customers. It would have to be restricted to products in a narrow-enough defined fashion that seat picker dot coms would be ok but time share solicitations and pure spam would not. But I'm certain the TB is up to the task! ^

PS: Koko: What was it you wanted to volunteer to this community volunteer event for the benefit of the community?

Well isn't that obvious: I'm working very hard to make sure that these events continue to be consistent with the TOS and able to be organized and marketed on FT! :D

But you are still looking at this issue from the perspective of an insider.

Now focus on MY perspective.
Saying you have a 'different perspective' doesn't excuse you from taking seriously the arguments and examples I've offered, or from speaking accurately about the live examples here on Flyertalk. ;)

Let's say you went to an IBB about dog grooming. In the community section there was a thread 'Come to the Dog grooming seminar!' You open it and it says 'For only $49 you can share a room with some of the world's BEST dog groomers.'

Does that look like a commercial solicitation to you? Because it does to me.
Well, I guess it really depends.

Come pay for meals and a portion of the cost of the venue, which is $49. Or we only need you to pay a portion of your meal costs and you can come to this great event, no that doesn't look like commercial solicitation to me.

Truly.

And if it looks like that to you, the what about "Come to the SeaDO and for only $X you can enjoy a great barbecue! And you'll even get to see the most pimped-out porta pottie in history -- far cooler than the world's largest ball of twine!"

Was missy running a commercial event too? If not, why not?

It can't possibly be that offering a compelling value proposition, something that folks value much more than it costs for them to eat, means that it's "commercial."

You say the line is 'for profit vs. non-profit.'

But who the heck is going to police THAT!?



I think the point is that we shouldn't, at least until there's a problem, we should trust and have confidence in the people who have built reputations and offered a willingness to put in substantial time, and who are aware of the guidelines, to follow them.

And when there's concern, ask questions. Fine.

But don't assume bad faith on the part of members of the community who are on-face offering something their fellow travelers value. In other words, respect, a bedrock of community. ;)

That's why I say the line is something else...and I tend to think it's more along the lines of 'a Do is an event where every attendee pays at least their equal share of costs.' But I'm trying to leave that to the TB to figure out.At least so they might pay more than? Wouldn't that mean a profit? :eek:

The TOS doesn't currently define a DO, nor should it, because community members are creative and come up with new ways of creating value for other members of the community. No one would have expected the CO DOs, the Star MegaDOs, but they provide tremendous value. So why define what is and isn't a DO? leave that up to the creativity of the members.

I guess I would start with what is actually the concern? or what is the real problem that you're trying to 'solve' here? Where's the parade of horribles, where the community is being harmed? if there isn't one, then I woldn't act, because acting comes with unintended consequences.

And if there is one, then any approach ought to be narrowly tailored to the actual problem. Enforcing a defined "DO" rule doesn't seem to fit.

But if someone wants a rule that says "you can't post an event where you're covering some speaker costs" fine, then the event won't get posted or it won't take place, and folks will be worse off for it.

I get it that bigger 'flash mobs' require greater organization. But at some point all that organization and the event it is organizing sure do look and act like a commercial ventures.
To you, and try as I might to see from your eyes, when no one is putting anything in their pockets and any excess cash goes to charity I really do not see the commercialism.

That's why I also think it makes sense to have a 'Miles and Points Products Marketplace' forum on FT. Where seminars, books, bidding websites, award availability products, award booking products, etc, etc, etc COULD be talked about by their owners and marketers as well as their customers and potential customers.

Sure, fine, do that. But explain why non-profit seminars, where the organizers don't make a dime, would go there? And once you explain that, explain why the London DOs or the SIN DOs or Ozfest would not?

Your proposal would allow a for-profit seminar to be posted there, sure fine, someone running a business. But that's not the issue we're talking about here anyway!

It would have to be restricted to products in a narrow-enough defined fashion that seat picker dot coms would be ok but time share solicitations would not. But I'm certain the TB is up to the task! ^

Why sholdn't SeatGuru or SeatExpert go there? Those are businesses after all!

And so is Starwood....

But sure, fine, have that. And let anyone who wants to host a for-profit seminar (eg Nicholas Kralev) advertise it there.

But that still doesn't get at the examples of seminars that are currently being offered and discusses that you have a problem with in Community.

now its my turn to have some fun......

lets say- a seminar is held in my city (cle) and the seminar is either not allowed to be posted on ft or is posted in a commercial section. i decide not to attend the seminar but want to host a strictly social/flash mob/falls within the tos: post-cle seminar-do. i post in cbuzz with no links to the seminar, but obviously an oblique reference to its existence and date. will that thread be permissable?


lets say #2- i host a do that is totally free, so no issues of profit vs. non profit. and my pals who own a budweiser distributor offer to kick in free beer for all attendees if we call it the budweiser-do. would that thread be permissable in cbuzz.

lets say #3- the seminars have raffles from stuff donated by sponsors and they don't offer speakers any comped air or hotel or per diem. are the organizers allowed to give each speaker 100 raffle tickets for each 1 that they give to attendees to create a tos-compliant means of maybe getting some speaker cost defrayment increased chances. or can the organizers put on a contest where the winners get free rooms or air....and all the questions just happen to pertain to the private lives of the speakers and the speakers would be the only ones to know the answers? would such seminar events have to be disclosed upfront since they don't have a cost to attendees?


i have a bunch more 'let's say' scenarios, but this is a good start to get a sense of the room.

Well, I guess it really depends.

Come pay for meals and a portion of the cost of the venue, which is $49. Or we only need you to pay a portion of your meal costs and you can come to this great event, no that doesn't look like commercial solicitation to me.


To me, that's a bit like the old 'buy this white envelope on ebay for $400 and I will throw in a SWU for free!'

From what I have seen on FT, the marketing thrust of the seminars is information, and the key marketing is around the expertise to be gleaned from the speakers. The meals and booze and community are incidental even if that is where most of the expenses are.

Further, how does the business model of the organization offering the product affect the commercial nature of the offer? Other than price point, why would a customer care if the information was being sold at cost or for a profit? As beaubo points out upthread, the value proposition of the offer is one for the customer to make.

In my dog-groomer example, if I am new to dog-grooming, I don't give a crud about who is running the seminar and why and what their underlying motivations or ultimate profit aims are...I am paying to get in the room with those expert dog groomers. I'm paying my money expecting information. That's a purely commercial transaction.

And if it looks like that to you, the what about "Come to the SeaDO and for only $X you can enjoy a great barbecue! And you'll even get to see the most pimped-out porta pottie in history -- far cooler than the world's largest ball of twine!"

Was missy running a commercial event too? If not, why not?


Because missy was marketing a get-together with community as the product, not a seminar with information and speakers as product.

Because missy was marketing a get-together with community as the product, not a seminar with information and speakers as product.

Bingo. Winner, winner, SHEEN dinner. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKMmvVOrsL8)

I think that's really dangerous. I don't think the TalkBoard ought to decide if Rick's event should be shared with the community or not. Rather, the Talkboard should certainly look at the site guidelines and see whether they still make sense.

And the point of the discussion here is to flush out what the community is thinking, in order to inform that discussion.

Agreed.

Having a budget doesn't make something commercial. Any well-run DO will have a budget.

Really? My understanding of most "Dos" are that the organizer gets the pulse of what the community wants to do doing their get together, and then makes arrangements. Be it dinner at a restaurant or a tour of a local winery. In most cases, the organizer might be on the hook for prepays, but at the end they are not selling tables to vendors, booking conference rooms, arranging for people to fly in, committing to room blocks, or donating any left over monies to charities.

Now, the TalkBoard could recommend a rule that no DO can take in sponsors. I think that would be unfortunate, since it's a creative way of keeping costs down for the community. I think it's community-enhancing. But if folks were really uncomfortable then something could be done there.

Of course a line or definition of what would consitute sponsorship would have to be delineated, what about a Continental DO as in the past, or one of the Delta mega events or last year's Starwood event? Those are surely sponsored, by travel providers with an interest in advancing their own business, and yet they have been both hugely successful and popular and also hugely value creating for the community. ^

Or the TB can make a delineation between a "Do" where as Koko mentioned, the product is the get together and other meetings where the product is an expert based information exchange.

Bingo. Winner, winner, SHEEN dinner.

So how would you categorize the Star Mega DO? A ton of people getting together to charter a plane and get to do once in a lifetime experiences? I had to sign a contract for 130K USD to get the DO of the ground. We sure need a budget when putting together something like that. (Oh, and 13K was donated to charity for SMDII, about 3K from surplus, the rest from raffles and auctions.)

And what about people trying not to get stiffed on a restaurant check, like this?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileage-plus/1186716-were-all-united-mini-do-chicago-april-2-updated-details-posted-9-march.html

Should it be allowed to collect the money in advance? Should we hire a CPA to check that Reb is not keeping a dollar for himself? (sorry Reb, it's just an example) :rolleyes:

And Missy's point about the SEA DO? Should you REALLY force people to take personal, financial risks in addition to spending thousands of hours putting something cool together for the community?

With what koko is saying here, EVERYONE that collects a dime from a FTer, comes in to question.

That means every DO that has an organizer that collects money, comes in to question.

You should be applauding these efforts by the members, not put them into question

For the Chicago DO and the FT University, we are charging less than the actual cost to attend because we've gotten sponsors to pick up some of the check. I have absolutely no problem providing full disclosure of the numbers, but I suspect that won't be enough anyways.

With all the awesome publicity IB gets from large DOs absolutely free (at SMD we've had national and global TV coverage and large articles in the largest newspapers in the US and more), I'm quite sure they welcome any efforts by organizers putting together DOs like these and won't charge anything to market.

I do think that Flyertalk members would be really pissed off if organizers of popular events that noone profits had to pay an advertisement fee to IB because the money has to come from somewhere, you guessed it, it will come out of the registration fee.

It's an uphill battle replying in this thread to a couple of individuals. The community has spoken: They want to have large DOs and also seminars. I will focus on the community and what they want

Or the TB can make a delineation between a "Do" where as Koko mentioned, the product is the get together and other meetings where the product is an expert based information exchange.

warning, gonna be snarky, but not to anyone personally, but just to make a point.

lets say #4- missy has a social do...and gleff and ingy and starwood and kvs all sign up. they each come with gobs of business cards, wearing a walking billboard, offering impromptu one on one mileage-related consultations for $20

can missy contact tb and request black helicopters to evacuate (or even sniper?) the offenders that have converted her tos-compliant do into an inadvertent tos-non compliant commercial seminar/do? or will missy be prevented from posting future do's because of the 'commercial ' blood on her hands, however inadvertently.

help me understand...before another 'lets say' bubbles to the surface?

LEADERSHIP. What if the LEADERSHIP at FT coordinating this event would think of options to those not in attendance.

The presenters have already documented their slides and viewfoils...or one would hope they did.

These can simply be posted with a few highlights.

Not as involved as you make it sound with the support of the presenters who already have done the work for the DO.

Ask the speakers if they mind you doing a summary of their presentations (I don't for mine) and show the leadership of FT what needs to be done, then do it yourself.

You are now given the opportunity to contribute to the community. Will you or will you just complain?

But it can't be for profit. This is an all volunteer not for profit event.

PS: Koko: What was it you wanted to volunteer to this community volunteer event for the benefit of the community?

To me, that's a bit like the old 'buy this white envelope on ebay for $400 and I will throw in a SWU for free!'


Hardly, that's again a pretty dismissive and even downright slap-in-the-face at folks who are investing time and energy to create something of value for the community. It's suggestive of something duplicitous, an attempt to skirt rules, a wink and a nod. When nothing of the sort is going on here, at all. And yet your replies keep using suggestive language to make such insinuations. :(

From what I have seen on FT, the marketing thrust of the seminars is information, and the key marketing is around the expertise to be gleaned from the speakers. The meals and booze and community are incidental even if that is where most of the expenses are.
The 'marketing thrust' as you describe it is letting folks know that they'll get something out of attending, vis-a-vis their travel, which is the very purpose and reason that most people come here in the first place.

And they discover great friendships out of it, too. And they meet in person the people who they've only seen online before.

And they feel comfortable, then, emailing later and exchanging notes and continuing friendships, and also asking travel questions that they might not have asked someone except that they are now their friend.

Which seems to me is the very idea of a DO, and very much the spirit of the community forum.

Perhaps we disagree...

To me, it ain't just to get drunk.

Further, how does the business model of the organization offering the product affect the commercial nature of the offer?

What 'business model' of the organization offering the product? See the language of your question is suggestive of your belief that it is a 'business model' and 'product' and thus commercial, when again, it ain't.

Other than price point, why would a customer care if the information was being sold at cost or for a profit? As beaubo points out upthread, the value proposition of the offer is one for the customer to make. The customer probably doesn't, the TOS as-written does, and there's no live controversy where anyone is making anything off of their activities with the community through these. :rolleyes:

In my dog-groomer example, if I am new to dog-grooming, I don't give a crud about who is running the seminar and why and what their underlying motivations or ultimate profit aims are...I am paying to get in the room with those expert dog groomers. I'm paying my money expecting information. That's a purely commercial transaction.
Then anyone hosting any DO where there's an activity, prepayment, etc. is commercial in your eyes.

As I said, explain to me then how the Chicago Seminar is commercial and the London DO is not?

Because missy was marketing a get-together with community as the product, not a seminar with information and speakers as product.

Again, we're back to pendantics, learning about and improving our travel lives is somehow not appropriate for this community in your model. And if the community-building comes out of a shared quest to learn about travel, that's also illegitimate. You'd rather the TalkBoard write rules where someone has to get into the mind of the organizer and participant about their primary motivation for offering an event to see if it's legit or not?

Seems ill-advised to me, and not just because the whole reason we're here is out travel lives, out of which we form friendships, and out of which we figure out ways to offer improved travel and more friendships to even more people on a bigger scale. ^^

LEADERSHIP. What if the LEADERSHIP at FT coordinating this event would think of options to those not in attendance.

The presenters have already documented their slides and viewfoils...or one would hope they did.

These can simply be posted with a few highlights.

Not as involved as you make it sound with the support of the presenters who already have done the work for the DO.

Why should this be done for you? See my earlier comments, I offered a suggestion about how you might step up, to take a LEADERSHIP ROLE in delivering value to the community. The way Rick and Tommy have. You're clearly motivated, why complain that you aren't being given more nad take the reigns and help figure out how to provide it to yourself and to everyone else? ^^

So how would you categorize the Star Mega DO? A ton of people getting together to charter a plane and get to do once in a lifetime experiences? I had to sign a contract for 130K USD to get the DO of the ground. We sure need a budget when putting together something like that. (Oh, and 13K was donated to charity for SMDII, about 3K from surplus, the rest from raffles and auctions.)

As has been mentioned before, the answer is pretty clear. The Megado was about the get together. See the neat stuff. Have fun. You took the initiative to charter the plane, and something tells me that if you didn't get the minimum people required, you wouldn't have "made up the difference" out of your own pocket. Be it $130K or $130, the goal is to recoup the cost, right?

Should it be allowed to collect the money in advance? Should we hire a CPA to check that Reb is not keeping a dollar for himself? (sorry Reb, it's just an example) :rolleyes:

I don't think that's needed, but if you're talking scale (like the SMDII), it may not hurt to protect yourself from criticism.


And Missy's point about the SEA DO? Should you REALLY force people to take personal, financial risks in addition to spending thousands of hours putting something cool together for the community?

With what koko is saying here, EVERYONE that collects a dime from a FTer, comes in to question.

That means every DO that has an organizer that collects money, comes in to question.

You should be applauding these efforts by the members, not put them into question

For the Chicago DO and the FT University, we are charging less than the actual cost to attend because we've gotten sponsors to pick up some of the check. I have absolutely no problem providing full disclosure of the numbers, but I suspect that won't be enough anyways.

With all the awesome publicity IB gets from large DOs absolutely free (at SMD we've had national and global TV coverage and large articles in the largest newspapers in the US and more), I'm quite sure they welcome any efforts by organizers putting together DOs like these and won't charge anything to market.

I think it great. But the question here is not if they should be done or if they should continue. The question is should a "do" and a "seminar" be treated differently?


I do think that Flyertalk members would be really pissed off if organizers of popular events that noone profits had to pay an advertisement fee to IB because the money has to come from somewhere, you guessed it, it will come out of the registration fee.

I think I may have introduced the concept of paying for ads, my apologies. If the seminar is NFP, then they shouldn't be forced to take ads. But given the great response to the seminars, i'll state again, that the founders of these would be crazy to keep these things as NFP.

Regardless, I just think full disclosure should be made. And again, not saying things should end, I'm in agreement with the OP, I think the TB needs to take up the question.


It's an uphill battle replying in this thread to a couple of individuals. The community has spoken: They want to have large DOs and also seminars. I will focus on the community and what they want

Thanks for making the decision for us...I think.

LEADERSHIP. What if the LEADERSHIP at FT coordinating this event would think of options to those not in attendance.

The presenters have already documented their slides and viewfoils...or one would hope they did.

These can simply be posted with a few highlights.

Not as involved as you make it sound with the support of the presenters who already have done the work for the DO.

Mandating that speakers at seminar dos provide handouts/powerpoints of their presentations for non-attendees does not fall under either the Talkboard or moderators purview.

Cheers.

warning, gonna be snarky, but not to anyone personally, but just to make a point.

lets say #4- missy has a social do...and gleff and ingy and starwood and kvs all sign up. they each come with gobs of business cards, wearing a walking billboard, offering impromptu one on one mileage-related consultations for $20

can missy contact tb and request black helicopters to evacuate (or even sniper?) the offenders that have converted her tos-compliant do into an inadvertent tos-non compliant commercial seminar/do? or will missy be prevented from posting future do's because of the 'commercial ' blood on her hands, however inadvertently.

help me understand...before another 'lets say' bubbles to the surface?

In your example, I think the behavior wouldn't go unnoticed and said individuals would run the risk of not being invited to a Do again.

See, this is the problem: Attitude

You use the word "mandating" when I am suggesting the FT moderators try to coordinate electronic copies of the presentations and post on FT.

Until the moderators show a willingness to the presenters to post the DO information nobody will know who cooperates.

I think this thread has differing directions of goals.

I just trying to give ideas for getting more information to people who can't attend the DO's. Since the past DO's information is scattered about and hard to locate let's think outside the box and organize electronic copies from the next DO.

IS too hard an issue for the moderators to even ASK?


Mandating that speakers at seminar dos provide handouts/powerpoints of their presentations for non-attendees does not fall under either the Talkboard or moderators purview.

Cheers.

But given the great response to the seminars, i'll state again, that the founders of these would be crazy to keep these things as NFP.

They may be crazy to, but that's the true test of how committed to this community they are, isn't it? I suspect we'll continue to see it in non-profit form for a long while.

And as long as it stays that way, I do not see a conflict with the TOS here.

IS too hard an issue for the moderators to even ASK?

Can you clarify exactly which moderator(s) you are tasking with this responsibility? Are you referring to the Community forum moderators?

See, this is the problem: Attitude

You use the word "mandating" when I am suggesting the FT moderators try to coordinate electronic copies of the presentations and post on FT.

Until the moderators show a willingness to the presenters to post the DO information nobody will know who cooperates.

I think this thread has differing directions of goals.

I just trying to give ideas for getting more information to people who can't attend the DO's. Since the past DO's information is scattered about and hard to locate let's think outside the box and organize electronic copies from the next DO.

IS too hard an issue for the moderators to even ASK?

My posts above have been subtlely suggesting that this isn't even the role of moderators, it's the role of members of the community to put together the information and to share it, and tha since you've had the idea and feel it's important it's the kind of LEADERSHIP role (to use your earlier capitalization) that you would perhaps be well-suited to step into!

I psoted earlier in the thread with some specific ways that you could do just that, accomplishing exactly what you're talking about, no need to wait for moderators whose description AFAIK doesn't include transcribing notes from gatherings.

I'm following this thread and only have a single question that seems to keep getting glossed over.

Why is recording of the seminar not permitted?

Responding to euromann:

I was merely pointing out a fact: speaker handouts at presentations does not fall under either Talkboard responsibilities nor FT moderator responsibilities.

This thread isn't about that either actually.

My recommendation would be that you post in the Chicago seminar thread in the CommunityBuzz forum your suggestion that some type of presentation materials be made available to non-attendees.

Cheers.

1. Do you have a email routing list of all presenters?
2. Send all presenters an email asking electronic copies of their presentation after the DO seminar has been completed. Seems a moderator would have more credibility than any FT member but I would be willing to send the email.
3. Post and list presenters that are willing to share their ideas. If NONE are willing to share that is their proprietary right but then again were all on FT to share travel ideas, right?


DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Why should this be done for you? See my earlier comments, I offered a suggestion about how you might step up, to take a LEADERSHIP ROLE in delivering value to the community. The way Rick and Tommy have. You're clearly motivated, why complain that you aren't being given more nad take the reigns and help figure out how to provide it to yourself and to everyone else? ^^

They may be crazy to, but that's the true test of how committed to this community they are, isn't it? I suspect we'll continue to see it in non-profit form for a long while.

And as long as it stays that way, I do not see a conflict with the TOS here.

At the only "do" I've been to there was lots of talk about travel and points, but no expert gave me a step by step instruction on how to say...churn coins.

To me, a "Do" is about getting to know the people behind the IDs. A seminar is about learning, and in most cases, very one way (even with a cocktail hour).

There no "fee" at a Do.

To Euromann:

You keep using the word moderator. FT forum moderators have nothing to do w/ handouts, whether it be handouts over a meal or at a seminar.

Given that several speakers at the seminar are presenting to 450 attendees, I'm a bit perplexed how you can say they're not sharing information.

Again, if you would like handouts provided the best place to post that suggestion is in the seminar do thread in CommunityBuzz.

To Mary2e:

Getting back to Mary's question, my guess is that the non-recording was requested to help avoid the hotel/airline/car rental folk from learning ways travelers might utilize the system to its fullest fruition. ;) But that's just a guess.

To SKOFarrell:

Step by steps can happen at meals; it's not limited to seminars. And I'm confused on why you think people attending the seminar event didn't get to know the people behind the ids. There were breaks, meals, cocktail party, hallway conversations. It was a genuine FT lovefest, and people who only knew each other virtually got to meet in person & hang out & hug. Also, some of the larger dos are also incorporating small administrative fees (hence, the thread started in June '10 re: it) to cover some out of pocket or stuff that needs to be paid before it's garnered from folk attending the dos.

Cheers.

I'm following this thread and only have a single question that seems to keep getting glossed over.

Why is recording of the seminar not permitted?

Not glossed over, I think it's just a long thread. :)

In post #74 I said that I thought there was tons of stuff that gets shared in-person amongst frequent flyers, and at all of the DOs, they often doesn't get posted online. Sometimes it's grey area stuff folks aren't comfortable posting. Sometimes it's deals that are likely to be short-lived and especially so if they get too much exposure. But there's plenty of off-line stuff that doens't go online.

As for me, I explained my own aversion to recording in that post as follows:

You can ask folks who were there what they learned, of course. Nothing wrong with a thread "tell me what you learned at the Chicago Seminar DO" which is different than a speaker saying that they would rather not be recorded. I'm not real keen on recording, personally. At least I wouldn't want to speak without the ability to edit myself.

There's this certain video of me on Facebook, telling a joke when I was in high school, and let's just say it would probably bar me from higher political office. ;) Maybe that just has me scarred. @:-)

Well, I would like to see a recording. It seems you folks schedule these things when I'm on vacation and unable to attend. While I learn stuff off-line from other FTers, having them all in one place to be able to view would be nice.

Plus, what's to stop somene from recording the sound at the event? After all, I just want to hear it, no need to see anyone's face :)

The whole no recording issue makes me a bit uncomfortable with regard to the seminars.

The whole no recording issue makes me a bit uncomfortable with regard to the seminars.

That's worth revisiting, actually.

Though there are probably some things that folks would share when the recorder is off, that they wouldn't want to be on tape explaining.

In answer to a question in one of my 3 sessions in Chicago, I explained a certain wway around booking fees at a certain airline that's really not very 'nice' and that I wouldn't want to be so on the record with (plus then the airline would probably fix their systems :D ).

But 99.999% of what I say I'd have no problem with, even though I'd likely be a bit more nervous giving the talk with each word forever on record. :eek:

That said, I can't imagine that's a dealbreaker for many.

Well Mary, schedule your vacations around the seminars then :p :D (kidding).

I think gleff explained the original reason. Also, unless you've got someone running around with a microphone to record every individual's questions that crop up throughout the presentations (most sessions questions occurred throughout, not just at the end), there'd be a lot of disjointed info. And it would slow things down. There were 225 folk in each of the 2 mtg rooms.

It also means more work for the organizers - finding a place to dupe cds, trying to figure out the pricing (usually places that do it do it based on quantity) + shipping domestic & internationally. But logistics of recordings, notes, etc, I think belong in the seminar do thread rather than this one per se.

Cheers.

Just takes one attendee to transcribe all the info and post it for sale on eBay. Does it benefit FlyerTalk for that to happen?

That's worth revisiting, actually.

Though there are probably some things that folks would share when the recorder is off, that they wouldn't want to be on tape explaining.

In answer to a question in one of my 3 sessions in Chicago, I explained a certain wway around booking fees at a certain airline that's really not very 'nice' and that I wouldn't want to be so on the record with (plus then the airline would probably fix their systems :D ).

But 99.999% of what I say I'd have no problem with, even though I'd likely be a bit more nervous giving the talk with each word forever on record. :eek:

That said, I can't imagine that's a dealbreaker for many.Thanks Gary. I agree about some of the more, ahem, creative things that may be mentioned, but overall, the whole thing should be made available to the community.

That one issue is what has been bothering me the most about the whole endeavor. If it's for the benefit of the community then everyone in the community should be able to share in it, whether or not they can attend.

Well Mary, schedule your vacations around the seminars then :p :D (kidding).:D :D I've missed the Freddies a few times and countless other large gatherings because they're held off-season to get the best bang for everyone's buck, and well, I travel at that time for the same reason :)

If it's for the benefit of the community then everyone in the community should be able to share in it, whether or not they can attend.

I don't actually disagree with you...

But it's tricky, there are things shared at ALL DOs that are between friends, not for posting, off-the-record. So no doubt these events will have that, too.

Maybe speakers just don't want to include any of that stuff in their talks, and just share those over drinks rather than in sessions, and then the things could be recorded. And then koko could make a ton of $$$ selling the recordings on eBay! ^^

Though as I say I don't know that I like being recorded personally. It's not that I don't want folks to have the info, I just don't like my words so memorialized without my having had the chance to stop, phrase something a different way, think better of having said it, etc.

There no "fee" at a Do.

There was a "fee" at Cabbage DO last summer.

It paid for, among other things:


Lunch during our tour of the Anchorage airport
The Kenai Fjords cruise out of Seward
Food and wine at the barbecue at BOB W's house (close to 40 attendees)
The bus ride into Denali National Park


Oh, and the speaker wasn't compensated for his time, either. That would be John Parrott, director of Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport.

Asking the TalkBoard to get into the muck and differentiate between two non-profit events that have many similarities is not our place--at least that's what is becoming clear to me the longer the circular arguments in this thread continue.

If and when these become for-profit ventures, then we can address the issue of these types of DOs in that framework. Until then, we're welcome to consider ideas such as allowing a space for commercial postings on FlyerTalk, but these DOs will not fall under that category.

I don't actually disagree with you...

But it's tricky, there are things shared at ALL DOs that are between friends, not for posting, off-the-record. So no doubt these events will have that, too.

Maybe speakers just don't want to include any of that stuff in their talks, and just share those over drinks rather than in sessions, and then the things could be recorded. And then koko could make a ton of $$$ selling the recordings on eBay! ^^

Though as I say I don't know that I like being recorded personally. It's not that I don't want folks to have the info, I just don't like my words so memorialized without my having had the chance to stop, phrase something a different way, think better of having said it, etc.
Hence the distinction. I've learned plenty at DOs and don't expect a DO to be recorded (nor personal conversations).

This is a seminar, and again, if it's being held for the benefit of the community, then the community should benefit - all of it.

There was a "fee" at Cabbage DO last summer.

It paid for, among other things:


Lunch during our tour of the Anchorage airport
The Kenai Fjords cruise out of Seward
Food and wine at the barbecue at BOB W's house (close to 40 attendees)
The bus ride into Denali National Park


Oh, and the speaker wasn't compensated for his time, either. That would be John Parrott, director of Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport.

Asking the TalkBoard to get into the muck and differentiate between two non-profit events that have many similarities is not our place--at least that's what is becoming clear to me the longer the circular arguments in this thread continue.

If and when these become for-profit ventures, then we can address the issue of these types of DOs in that framework. Until then, we're welcome to consider ideas such as allowing a space for commercial postings on FlyerTalk, but these DOs will not fall under that category.

What was optional? Was the fee for the entire 3 days or could you pick and choose what you wanted to do (i.e. just go on the tour, or just go to dinner)?

What was optional? Was the fee for the entire 3 days or could you pick and choose what you wanted to do (i.e. just go on the tour, or just go to dinner)?

Would that actually matter in some meaningful way?

Last year Rick's Chicago event, there was a base fee of $20 which covered room, supplies, etc. and then each meal could be added separately. (If you were staying at the host hotel, they got one person's meal thrown in to the room rate but of course no one was obligated to stay there.)

Sounds like your scenario last year's Chicago Semianr works for you.

On the other hand, it's way more ocmplicated to administer. And as long as the thing is non-profit with volunteers, the less complex the better.

Is it your view that it would be impermissable to offer a series of activities where everyone had to pitch into the whole thing, they couldn't just drop into bits and pieces?

I mean, sure, that could be a rule. And that may even be the practice at most events. But it's also something more of a PTIA, so I'd hate to see it so enshrined.

Plus again, if it's the standard you'd operate on you're at least happy with how the October ORD seminar was put togehter! Which is great, because it's food for thought as others plan future events, at least in terms of how to get your blessing! ^

Hence the distinction. I've learned plenty at DOs and don't expect a DO to be recorded (nor personal conversations).

This is a seminar, and again, if it's being held for the benefit of the community, then the community should benefit - all of it.

Well, I'm not quite buying the distinction between a 'seminar' and a 'DO', I still think the seminar is a DO.

However, I also don't have a problem with a seminar that is also recorded. Any speaker with a problem being recorded would just either temper their remarks (because plenty is shared off-the-record at DOs all the time) or decline the speaking invitation.

But surely you don't mean that all of it is recorded, some of the best stuff is the informal interaction over drinks, what if logistical problems prevent good recording of Q&A? Are we going to say that a 'seminar' is illegitimate if it doesn't invest in a certain minimum of A/V expense, first to record the talks and then to even have a roaming mike (and someone to manage it) for questions and someone to edit the recordings and put them in the appropriate file format and host them online?

And who is going to pay for this? The seminar attendees? They get the talks by virtue of being there at the event. The community expects it without pickng up the cost. I suspect that many organizers who are already generous would find a way to be even more generous and make this all happen. But it would be nice if someone who wanted this and couldn't attend would rais etheir hand and say "I'll figure out how to help get this done" rather than just expecting that it be done for them and given to them, at someone else's effort and expense!

Mary, I think you actually have a relatively reasonable request and I realize I'm probably just getting bitter at this point at all the ungratefulness for the efforts of others displayed in this thread, it's really disappoitning and unseemingly.

I'd love to see something develop where more people have more access to more information via new mediums. I just don't want to see people who are already working hard out of thier own time and effort criticized from the sidelines for failing to do that too. :)

TALKBOARD-DO.

Euromann will contact seminar speakers and collect their powerpoint presentations and post them on a master thread for the whole FT community
to see.

* No need for FTU or ORD-Do or their pesky sponsors and moral ambiguity about speakers' travel-related per diems or organizers skimming cash/creating downstream for-profit companies

* No need for Flyertalk or Inside Flyer or Milepoint because the posted info will provide essentially one-stop shopping for mileage-related info and obviate the repeat viewing 'stickiness' that such websites business models require from posters.

* No need for the cultivation of a community of sharing between like-minded people whether online or at in person Dos/Seminars, because who needs people when you can rely on a master document.



There is nothing stopping someone who has the time and motivation from doing a search of any speaker (or any other FTer that you perceive as having special knowledge like vysean of USAir or mrpalert for car rentals or any of the lurkers) and gleaning information from their FT posts over the last 2-10 years. Its all there.

The more I think about it, the value proposition of Seminars is not about commercialism or even knowledge, its about CONVENIENCE. Information on FT is free, and all of us have plenty of proof of our posting contributions to this community. If you want the Cliff Notes (Seminar) because you don't have the time or interest to read the admittedly scattered book (forums), then FTU or ORD-Do fulfill that niche.



And if these Seminars are going to have their budgets micromanaged by line item, I sure hope ingy and tommy include the 'TalkBoard Tax' - X $$$ for advertising and unsubsidized food due to prohibition of C-buzz posting and sponsor recruitment. I guess we'll find out how many TB incumbents make it through the next election with that on their resume!!!

Gary, I think you've become oversensitive :)

I don't mean ALL of it, I mean the actual seminar part(s). As for the cost, well, someone has to have a digital recorder to stick next to the speaker. We're not talking about studio-recording quality :) After that, it's just a matter of loading it to FT and posting a link for anyone who is interested to listen. Perhaps I'm over-simplifying, but it doesn't have to cost anything.

Since it was my idea... I'll even volunteer to try to figure out how to deal with the recordings and get them posted, since I'm sure there will be several.

I think it would go a long way to making it seem less like a money-making event, and more like a community event.

I'm not sure how I ended up being mentioned so often in the last couple pages of this thread, but all I have to say is: My porta-potty was AWESOME!

Missy, I saw a picture of it... AND IT WAS ^^

With what koko is saying here, EVERYONE that collects a dime from a FTer, comes in to question.

That means every DO that has an organizer that collects money, comes in to question.

If that's you interpretation of my position then you need to re-read my posts.

What I am saying is that when the purpose of a get-together is social it is a Do.

When the purpose of a get-together is to buy (even at a cut-rate price!) and sell information (with some social aspects too!!!) it is a seminar.


Hardly, that's again a pretty dismissive and even downright slap-in-the-face at folks who are investing time and energy to create something of value for the community. It's suggestive of something duplicitous, an attempt to skirt rules, a wink and a nod. When nothing of the sort is going on here, at all. And yet your replies keep using suggestive language to make such insinuations. :(

The 'marketing thrust' as you describe it is letting folks know that they'll get something out of attending, vis-a-vis their travel, which is the very purpose and reason that most people come here in the first place.

And they discover great friendships out of it, too. And they meet in person the people who they've only seen online before.

And they feel comfortable, then, emailing later and exchanging notes and continuing friendships, and also asking travel questions that they might not have asked someone except that they are now their friend.

Which seems to me is the very idea of a DO, and very much the spirit of the community forum.

Perhaps we disagree...

To me, it ain't just to get drunk.
Yes, people go to seminar to get information from speakers.

IME, people were meant to go to Dos to interact socially and if they wanted to go on about points and miles then all the better.

And no, not just to get drunk, either. Also to get laid. Or, in my case where I met my fiancee at the Portland BrewFest Do in 2002, to get married. :) @:-)


Again, we're back to pendantics, learning about and improving our travel lives is somehow not appropriate for this community in your model. And if the community-building comes out of a shared quest to learn about travel, that's also illegitimate. You'd rather the TalkBoard write rules where someone has to get into the mind of the organizer and participant about their primary motivation for offering an event to see if it's legit or not?

Seems ill-advised to me, and not just because the whole reason we're here is out travel lives, out of which we form friendships, and out of which we figure out ways to offer improved travel and more friendships to even more people on a bigger scale. ^^I don't have to read minds to understand what's being sold: I can simply read the threads.

If the thread says, 'come to Des Moines, we're going to meet and talk and have some fun! $49 covers food and drinks, see you there' then it's clear to me that what's being sold is the community.

If the thread says 'come to Des Moines and for $49 you can learn all sorts of valuable information at expert sessions' then I know that it is information and access to experts is what is being sold, with community as an add-on.

It is, to me, a step too far away from community and into commercialism.

Plus again, if it's the standard you'd operate on you're at least happy with how the October ORD seminar was put togehter! Which is great, because it's food for thought as others plan future events, at least in terms of how to get your blessing! ^

I'm done arguing Pedagogics :)

But I'm also discouraged that two sides on an argument can't simply disagree without it devolving into one side being told that "you need my blessing" (you), or that "the community has spoken" (tommy). Basically: we're right, you're wrong, and if you don't agree with "us" you should just go away.

I think there's a difference between a Seminar and a Do. As I've stated I've not seen vendors being sold tables at a "Do" in exchange to pitch a product to the eyeballs that attend. I've seen that plenty of times at seminars over the years, and that's just one thing that makes it feel different to me. Seminars being largely one way (presenters lecturing the masses, vs a totally social interaction), is another. Comped room/badge for speakers, blah, blah,blah.

If the TB wants to rule on this, suggest a modification to the TOS, or create a new forum. Great. It'll make things easier for the community moderators. If not, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

My thanks go out to anyone that has organized a Do (or Seminar) over the years.

Thing is, the Dos were always about community first, miles and points second. That equation is in the process of being turned on its head.


I'm just shocked it just offends my senses that people would come onto Flyertalk and be so brash as to organize an event where the primary purpose of getting together was to talk about miles and points.

We gotta nip that in the bud right now!!! :rolleyes: :td::td::td:

My thanks go out to anyone that has organized a Do (or Seminar) over the years.

^^^

But it's still the community forum. Not the seminar forum. Hence my suggestion for a new forum for these types of events...but I also think it would be wise to expand that to all miles and points services. @:-)

ok, so pull the trigger with a new thread that tb can vote on already.

i actually hope that ingy and tommy choose to rethink their non-profit status, just so that once they convert to being 'commercial' by admitting to taking a salary of a penny, they can be unfettered from all of the tb worst-case scenario-ing.

lets find out how many people want their money back if ingy and tommy decide to alert their registrants and prospective registrants that they have become 'for-profit'.

or better yet, how about ingy and tommy advising that the cost of their event pricing just went up by x $$$ because of contemplated tb policy change. THEN, the 'community' that TB (or at least koko) purportedly speaks for, will have a FIRSTHAND opportunity to decide if they feel that these Do/Seminar distinctions hold water.

HOW ABOUT A POLL in the FTU and ORD-DO threads to get a sense of the room? It would seem that the ultimate affected party- participants and prospects, should be able to weigh in in the light of day (C-Buzz) not this obscure crevice (TB Forum).

There was a "fee" at Cabbage DO last summer.

It paid for, among other things:


Lunch during our tour of the Anchorage airport
The Kenai Fjords cruise out of Seward
Food and wine at the barbecue at BOB W's house (close to 40 attendees)
The bus ride into Denali National Park


Oh, and the speaker wasn't compensated for his time, either. That would be John Parrott, director of Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport.

Asking the TalkBoard to get into the muck and differentiate between two non-profit events that have many similarities is not our place--at least that's what is becoming clear to me the longer the circular arguments in this thread continue.

If and when these become for-profit ventures, then we can address the issue of these types of DOs in that framework. Until then, we're welcome to consider ideas such as allowing a space for commercial postings on FlyerTalk, but these DOs will not fall under that category.

I dunno, JMHO, but that's what a DO is. And there is a fine line between the speaker (or the attraction) being the airport director, or a higher-up from an airline, and a super-expert FlyerTalker in my view. The former certainly builds community. Does the latter?

I'm just shocked it just offends my senses that people would come onto Flyertalk and be so brash as to organize an event where the primary purpose of getting together was to talk about miles and points.

We gotta nip that in the bud right now!!! :rolleyes: :td::td::td:
But it's clear that CommunityBuzz is a forum about the community of people who care too much about points and miles, ie about each other and ourselves collectively.

If you actually want to talk about miles and points, you do that in MileBuzz or in the specific program forum, not in CommunityBuzz.

So it makes sense that get-togethers that are focused on the community and social aspects of getting together whether that be to fly around the country or world, tour airports (as I did at a Burbank Do), ride boats, visit castles, eat dinner, get drunk, get laid or otherwise interact with other FTers, then community is the place for it.

Get togethers based on providing miles and points services such as mile and point seminars belong somewhere else. IMHO, in a new forum that deals with commercial mile and point services.

But it's clear that CommunityBuzz is a forum about the community of people who care too much about points and miles, ie about each other and ourselves collectively.

If you actually want to talk about miles and points, you do that in MileBuzz or in the specific program forum, not in CommunityBuzz.

So it makes sense that get-togethers that are focused on the community and social aspects of getting together whether that be to fly around the country or world, tour airports (as I did at a Burbank Do), ride boats, visit castles, eat dinner, get drunk, get laid or otherwise interact with other FTers, then community is the place for it.

Get togethers based on providing miles and points services such as mile and point seminars belong somewhere else. IMHO, in a new forum that deals with commercial mile and point services.

Get togethers of frequent flyers have long belonged in the Community Forum.

In fact, the forum description is:
The official get-together page for the FlyerTalk community as well as topics related directly to the general membership of FlyerTalk.

It certainly is not (nor does it say anywhere in the TOS), "Discussions of Getting Drunk, Getting Laid, and Visiting Castles, No Other Topics Of Interest Of the General Membership May Be Discussed at Events Here."

If someone wants to pass a rule that says only get togethers that are primarily about geting drunk, getting laid, eating dinner and visiting castles are permissable there. And get togethers of frequent flyers who want to talk about miles and points are not, then fine.

That seems pretty damaging to a community of, you know, frequent flyers to me. But I'm not on TalkBoard anymore. So it ain't my call. @:-)

At least the cards are on the table. ^

ok, so pull the trigger with a new thread that tb can vote on already.



Lol, I'm not on the TB anymore so I can't make that motion.

And while I could certainly start another thread on this topic with that specific recommendation, I've made my specific recommendation crystal clear in this thread...isn't one thread on this issue enough? ;) :D

I'm just shocked it just offends my senses that people would come onto Flyertalk and be so brash as to organize an event where the primary purpose of getting together was to talk about miles and points.


Do we really talk about miles and points anymore? I'd say most of the conversation in the airline forums relates to more operational aspects of each carrier.

The implication is that real discussion about the best way to accrue/reedem miles/points occurs at these seminars and that the discussion of them has moved offline.

Maybe I'm wrong, but other than the MilesBuzz forum there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of Miles/Points discussion, at least compared to the past. :confused:

I think everyone needs to go take a lap.

There is merit to both sides of the argument, but I think we are trying to legislate "intention", which can't be done. We can legislate specific actions, but that will IMO make those who volunteer to host do's that much more reluctant to do so.

If the thread says, 'come to Des Moines, we're going to meet and talk and have some fun! $49 covers food and drinks, see you there' then it's clear to me that what's being sold is the community.

If the thread says 'come to Des Moines and for $49 you can learn all sorts of valuable information at expert sessions' then I know that it is information and access to experts is what is being sold, with community as an add-on.

I'd hate to see us start toying with semantics to legitimize what is likely to be the exact same event.

What if the thread said 'Come to Des Moines, learn all sorts of valuable information at expert sessions, and get to know some of your fellow frequent flying fanatics. $49 covers food, drinks, and fun! See you there... '

Randy always allowed a little leeway for "commercial" ventures that were products from members of the community for members of the community. This is kind of where I see that falling.

I'd like to see the TB stay out of Do planning, please.

Randy always allowed a little leeway for "commercial" ventures that were products from members of the community for members of the community. This is kind of where I see that falling.
.

missy-

I'm gonna have to put on my 'koko' hat here........

WHICH members of FT community would really qualify for the 'little leeway for commercial ventures'. Will qualification be based on number of posts, number of helpful posts, number of years on FT, how tight (or not) with Randy/IB/TB/Moderators, perceived content/quality of their proposed Do, financial strip search or white collar criminal database check for possible past infractions, ....you get my drift

Do we really talk about miles and points anymore? I'd say most of the conversation in the airline forums relates to more operational aspects of each carrier.

The implication is that real discussion about the best way to accrue/reedem miles/points occurs at these seminars and that the discussion of them has moved offline.

Maybe I'm wrong, but other than the MilesBuzz forum there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of Miles/Points discussion, at least compared to the past. :confused:

Well, and private list-servs and word of mouth networks. ;)

Gotta stay a step ahead of those nasty buggers who make point offers and set fare buckets and so forth. :p

I dunno, JMHO, but that's what a DO is. And there is a fine line between the speaker (or the attraction) being the airport director, or a higher-up from an airline, and a super-expert FlyerTalker in my view. The former certainly builds community. Does the latter?

That's a reasonable question to ask, and one that I had never considered because I for one, at least, as a speaker who was invited and who got tons of thanks at the time of Chicago for turning up by around 400 Frequent flyers.

It hadn't occurred to me that beaubo, or ingy, or lucky9876coins, or Bikeguy, or I were doing anything detrimental to community.

And I haven't really seen much of an argument in this thread about how we/they are.

But if we are, and I respect your opinion, then I genuinely would step back and say 'hey, that wasn't what I was going for here' and no reason to show up at these things, happy not to do anymore (though of course I would honor the two outstanding commitments I already have).

Gotta stay a step ahead of those nasty buggers who make point offers and set fare buckets and so forth. :p

:rimshot:

Y'know, this thread is building community, kinda like OMNI (power to the posters!)

I may just hit 25,000 posts here yet...

missy-

I'm gonna have to put on my 'koko' hat here........

WHICH members of FT community would really qualify for the 'little leeway for commercial ventures'. Will qualification be based on number of posts, number of helpful posts, number of years on FT, how tight (or not) with Randy/IB/TB/Moderators, perceived content/quality of their proposed Do, financial strip search or white collar criminal database check for possible past infractions, ....you get my drift

You'll have to ask Randy what his qualification was. But I know that Viajero Joven did some seminars, and offered Mileage Run planning services on FT. KVS has been allowed to freely advertise their tool... which I believe requires a paid subsription? Randy promoted your Competitours product by running a contest.

Gotta stay a step ahead of those nasty buggers who make point offers and set fare buckets and so forth. :p
Ha! you wish...

It takes a lot more to get attention than most realize. Bad Dog!

Another 'Koko'-ism (thats a compliment in your ability to think about so many different scenarios).

If Seminars are not allowed in C-Buzz, but someone posts a 'Post-Chicago Seminar DO' without any links to that Seminar, but invites 'Chicago Seminar participants to stick around afterwards for this strictly social DO', will this be allowed/unedited in C-Buzz?

If it is not allowed because of the allusion to a TOS-forbidden 'commercial' reference, then is it safe to say that all C-Buzz DOs that take place at locales with 'commercial' intent- local restaurant, bar, palace, airport , etc. will also be disallowed or moved to the proposed 'Commercial' forum??

Another 'Koko'-ism (thats a compliment in your ability to think about so many different scenarios).

If Seminars are not allowed in C-Buzz, but someone posts a 'Post-Chicago Seminar DO' without any links to that Seminar, but invites 'Chicago Seminar participants to stick around afterwards for this strictly social DO', will this be allowed/unedited in C-Buzz?

If it is not allowed because of the allusion to a TOS-forbidden 'commercial' reference, then is it safe to say that all C-Buzz DOs that take place at locales with 'commercial' intent- local restaurant, bar, palace, airport , etc. will also be disallowed or moved to the proposed 'Commercial' forum??


If only seminar participants were invited, then it would be verboten simply because it wasn't open to all members of the community.

But otherwise, it wouldn't be any different than me saying "hey, I know there are a bunch of us in Vegas for CES, who wants to meet for drinks on Thursday night?

You'll have to ask Randy what his qualification was. But I know that Viajero Joven did some seminars, and offered Mileage Run planning services on FT. KVS has been allowed to freely advertise their tool... which I believe requires a paid subsription? Randy promoted your Competitours product by running a contest.

So much for internet communication!!!!

I meant that question of "WHICH" FTers would be qualified to run events 'for the community' as a jest. Just to show how a simple principle like Randy's can get totally gummed up when over-analyzed!

I am pretty sure Randy's criteria was always based on some perceived RELEVANCE (KVS, Viajero Joven, etc.) and/or UNIQUENESS (Competitours, Global Scavenger Hunt, Star Mega Do, etc). Trying to replicate his singular vision with a committee standard like TB, would be a headache/catfight......hence my 'WHICH' FTers would or would not be bequeathed question.

My porta-potty was AWESOME!


About as awesome as a Porta-Potty can get IMHO:

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/CholulaFire/SEADOOHoneyBucket.jpg

Ha! you wish...

It takes a lot more to get attention than most realize. Bad Dog!

Tee hee.

If only seminar participants were invited, then it would be verboten simply because it wasn't open to all members of the community.

But otherwise, it wouldn't be any different than me saying "hey, I know there are a bunch of us in Vegas for CES, who wants to meet for drinks on Thursday night?

Well then lets face it, THAT'S the 'workaround' if these seminars really don;t want to ghettoized in a commercial forum and/or don't want to pay IB for advertising a commercial project.

CONSPIRACY
Seminar organizers (or ANY commercial player for that matter) or seminar surrogates or Seminar sponsors can seed C-buzz with pre/during/post event Dos (open to all) referencing event in title or post content or location to be held.

NON-CONSPIRACY
Well-meaning local where Seminar being held, but not attending, ON THEIR OWN, decide to offer a pre/post Do for Seminar (and of course any other FTers) just because they are on this person's home turf and want to offer hospitality

Well-meaning and maybe deep-pocketed Seminar attendee decides to offer a pre-/post DO.



Unrelated...since IB has other travel-relaed sites that could be of interest to Seminar attendees, maybe they could be invited as a sponsor to show off other sites in exchange for not just permission to be in C-Buzz, but even a more prominent and strategic marketing partner- like stickies across all threads for x amount of time. Then, IB can have some non-cash (other sites sponsorship/on premise exposure) means of leveraging these Seminars.

I apologize in advance if this scenario is not consistent with the marketing visions of ingy, tommy. Just trying to figure out win/wins here and not harass koko anymore!!!

About as awesome as a Porta-Potty can get IMHO:

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/CholulaFire/SEADOOHoneyBucket.jpg

What's awesome is that this is the second time in this thread that that porta-potty appears!!! :cool:

What's awesome is that this is the second time in this thread that that porta-potty appears!!! :cool:

Well you do have to admit that this thread has dipped into the crapper on occasion. ;)

Is that the kind of post that got you to Evangelist status.

Still more people registering. Still more people volunteering.

Koko? Wanna volunteer? This thread is about Do's/seminars, not about me.

Besides (snark alert!!!!) haven't I gotten you enough free pub via this thread!? Any pub is good pub, after all! ^

I contragulate us both on your seminar's impending success. :D:D (this conclues our snark alert)

I suggest the alert moderator button.


Furthermore I would suggest (feel free to read it like demand) that any (serious) DO/seminar organizer make speeches/printouts available in all official languages of the EU. I guess FT isnt only for americans? Info is supposed to be shared right?

point well taken; in such spirit of community, i will try and bone up on my mandarin, hindi, arabic, swahili, italian, celtic, hebrew, etc. ;) !!

This thread is about Do's/seminars, not about me.

Besides (snark alert!!!!) haven't I gotten you enough free pub via this thread!? Any pub is good pub, after all! ^

I contragulate us both on your seminar's impending success. :D:D (this conclues our snark alert)

This thread is about doing what is best for the community. Why else would someone with your number of "tee hee" posts start it. You are indeed concerned about the community aren't you? Or is there another motive behind your post?

Wanna volunteer to help the community?

This thread is about Do's/seminars, not about me.


For threads all about kokonutz in all his glory, please see:

Koko gets engaged (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/1119125-i-proposed-another-flyertalker-airplane-shockingly-she-said-yes.html)

Koko goes a year without dying (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/491571-please-sign-kokonutzs-birthday-card-here.html)

Koko goes another year without dying (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/communitybuzz/622953-day-kokonutz-came-us.html)

Hmm, maybe the REAL motives here are that these DOs, whatever they are, are taking attention away from one Mr. Nutz. @:-)

Tee hee

What was optional? Was the fee for the entire 3 days or could you pick and choose what you wanted to do (i.e. just go on the tour, or just go to dinner)?

There was a point at which I was very close to making everything mandatory, since the back-and-forth about who was participating in what and trying to give accurate numbers to the vendors was getting to be very time-consuming. I'm sure I put at least 200 hours of work into planning and executing the DO.

I dunno, JMHO, but that's what a DO is. And there is a fine line between the speaker (or the attraction) being the airport director, or a higher-up from an airline, and a super-expert FlyerTalker in my view. The former certainly builds community. Does the latter?

It's such a fine line that I'm increasingly realizing it's not one that TalkBoard can really address.

And yes, I'm seeing that the "seminar" DOs are indeed building community.

I think everyone needs to go take a lap.

There is merit to both sides of the argument, but I think we are trying to legislate "intention", which can't be done. We can legislate specific actions, but that will IMO make those who volunteer to host do's that much more reluctant to do so.

Agree wholeheartedly--on both counts.