US Airways Dividend Miles (Pre-FlightFund Merger) - plea from the ticket counter

I thought you good folks could help us ticket counter agents out with a problem that seems to grow every day. With all of our new Caribbean and central/latin America service, we see on a daily basis customers without the proper documentation to travel. Some destinations require a DL (STT, STX), one, a passport (BZE), Mexico requires parental consent if more than one parent does not travel, etc. I imagine most if not all of you are well aware of what paperwork you need to have to travel outside the country, but if you have friends, or family members, or co-workers that are travelling internationally, drop a hint that they should double-check exactly what they need to have with them. Res can help them out or we'd be more than happy to verify at the ticket counter what they must have. I can deal with cancellations and bad weather, but it's getting old real fast telling a family they can't go on that trip they've been planning for months because Dad has a fax of his birth certificate or Mom has a hospital registration. Thanks in advance for any help.

Thanks too, for flying US. I appreciate it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ATOAGT:
Thanks too, for flying US. I appreciate it.</font>

Welcome to FT, ATOAGT. I love hearing stories from the "other side". http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

You are right in that the majority of the flying public need to be aware of the regulations when travelling internationally.


My solution: Keep that up to date passport ready at all times!

I do agree that the regulations concerning a single parent leaving the country without documentation from the 2nd parent can be one of those "little known" hassles. I don't envy you having to deal with that one.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ATOAGT:
Thanks too, for flying US. I appreciate it.</font>


One more (and very important) thing:

You will find a very vocal group of very frequent fliers on this US forum. The one thing that we ALL agree on is that US Airways has the best front line employees. We may run into a tired gate agent here and there or a ticket agent who'se had a bad day, but I think I speak for most of the frequent fliers here when I say THANK YOU for making US Airways what it is today!


cheers! geo1005 (a loyal Chairman's Preferred)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by geo1005:
I do agree that the regulations concerning a single parent leaving the country without documentation from the 2nd parent can be one of those "little known" hassles. I don't envy you having to deal with that one.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>

So tell me what do you do if they say
q) the other parent is dead....?
a) demand the dead cert?

q) the other parent has no custody rights?
a) demand to see divorce papers???

q) the child is not traveling with their parent at all but with some friends
a) demand to see what????

q) the child (with passport) is traveling by themselves
a) demand to see
i) their emancipation papers?
ii) their parents death certificates
iii) their parents incarceration papers?
iv) ???????

q) the mother claims to be a 60's flower child and has no idea who the father is....
a) ??????????

I can think of other similar problems like this. and more importantly how would you verify that any of this paperwork is not fake since none of it would be documentation you would be familiar with?

I once was stuck in an immigration line leaving Buenos Aires, behind a high school soccer team going to an international tournament -- each player had to have notarized* documents certifying their parents' consent to leave the country.

It is standard practice to get separate mother's and father's consent letters right after a child is born -- you just keep them with the kid's passport, ready for travel. If the parents divorce, part of the process is an agreement about children's travel, and permission documents are drawn up.

Justified or not, many 3rd world countries are paranoid about letting children outside their borders.

* the notary seal in Argentina is taken seriously -- the ID produced by the signing party is verified and registered with the document in a numbered entry in a reference book kept with the notary. The entry exists separately from the original document, and can be used to reconstruct the document's existence and legality if it is lost.

[This message has been edited by gsilliman (edited 08-14-2003).]

Thanks ATOAGT for your helpful post which I think is a reminder for travelers to check on entry requirements. I'm sure some of those folks get down right belligerent when you ask them for the documentation for which you've been trained to ask.

ATOAGT, Welcome to the board (!) and thanks for the reminder. My wife and I got a passport for our son when he was 10 weeks old - just makes things easier (and he's only ever traveled internationally accompanied by both of us).

Since the requirements vary from country to country does anyone know of a good online resource for checking the details when planning a possible trip? (Naturally I'd confirm the details when booking -- but the nature of the required paperwork might influence the choice of a destination.)

This is good for personal use:

Travel Docs Needed (http://www.columbusguides.com/data/bhs/bhs040.asp)

but it doesn't seem to cover the child with one parent issue.


[This message has been edited by TomBascom (edited 08-15-2003).]

Maybe the airline itself could get a little pro-active instead of re-active to this problem?

When Joe Tourist makes a reservation, wouldn't that be a great time for the on-line, or phone ticket agent, to 'review' the documentation requirements?

Especially if they are buying a child fare to Mexico. Get time to have the pop-up box or the operator to 'remind' about having permission from both parents.

This would be a 'service' to the customer, that costs the airline very little, and yet saves a lot of frustration and bad feelings against the airline.

Naw... that would never work.

Although I don't think it covers the children issue, try this link (http://www.delta.com/travel/trav_serv/intl_travel/timatic/index.jsp) for detailed visa info, including transit visa requirements.

Michael

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by WhoME:
Although I don't think it covers the children issue, try this link (http://www.delta.com/travel/trav_serv/intl_travel/timatic/index.jsp) for detailed visa info, including transit visa requirements.

Michael</font>

That's very good! BTW -- it does provide at least some info about children.

And the "fines for the carrier" notes are neat too. They underscore that the airlines aren't doing this just to be annoying.

US should arrange to carry this on their website.

The AC site seems to have good info vis-a-vis single travel with children

http://www.aircanada.ca/planning/before/infant-child.html

ATOAGT,

Please allow me to extend another welcome to you here at Flyertalk. I am also one of the biggest fans of US employees--I fly almost every single week from ISP or LGA.

Thank you for posting such good information. I am sure that those of us here will take advantage of your suggestions.

Finally let me agree with my fellow poster--you front line employees of US are the BEST in the industry, and you are the reason myself and many of my fellow US1's stay totally loyal. For that we offer our thanks and continued support.


------------------
IT'S THE FARES, STUPID!!

Regards,

Art at ISP

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by WhoME:
Although I don't think it covers the children issue, try this link (http://www.delta.com/travel/trav_serv/intl_travel/timatic/index.jsp) for detailed visa info, including transit visa requirements.

Michael</font>

This is a fantastic link. Kudos to Delta for setting this up.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jcrb:
So tell me what do you do if they say
q) the other parent is dead....?
a) demand the dead cert?

q) the other parent has no custody rights?
a) demand to see divorce papers???

q) the child is not traveling with their parent at all but with some friends
a) demand to see what????

q) the child (with passport) is traveling by themselves
a) demand to see
i) their emancipation papers?
ii) their parents death certificates
iii) their parents incarceration papers?
iv) ???????

q) the mother claims to be a 60's flower child and has no idea who the father is....
a) ??????????

I can think of other similar problems like this. and more importantly how would you verify that any of this paperwork is not fake since none of it would be documentation you would be familiar with?</font>


Your questions seem to be direct towards US Airways, almost as if you think that it's some stupid airline policy. Perhaps you should direct these questions to your own government officials, the same ones that require these documents for travel. The airlines are responsible to make sure the passengers have this documentation, if they do not then the airline is not allowed, under penalty of law punishable by HUGE fines, to allow this person to travel. If a child travels without both parents then legal, notarized documentation must be provided to show that it is okay with the other parent. If the other parent, for whatver reason, is not in the picture, then legal documentation must be provided as proof of this. It's all perfectly logical and, given the number of kidnappings that take place, a very good idea.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AS Flyer:

Your questions seem to be direct towards US Airways, almost as if you think that it's some stupid airline policy. Perhaps you should direct these questions to your own government officials, the same ones that require these documents for travel. The airlines are responsible to make sure the passengers have this documentation, if they do not then the airline is not allowed, under penalty of law punishable by HUGE fines, to allow this person to travel. If a child travels without both parents then legal, notarized documentation must be provided to show that it is okay with the other parent. If the other parent, for whatver reason, is not in the picture, then legal documentation must be provided as proof of this. It's all perfectly logical and, given the number of kidnappings that take place, a very good idea.</font>
No, there really are two legitimate sets of questions here. One set covers what the Goverment(s) require of the airlines and exactly how they penalize the airline if the requirements aren't met. The second set covers how the airlines translate what is required of them into exactly what THEY will require of passengers on their airline in order to insure that the airline's liability is minimized (including avoiding possible mistakes by airline personnel looking at unfamiliar paperwork). I suspect that some airlines could go way beyond the government requirements to cover their a$$, while other's might take a looser (more risky) position.

This is definitely an interesting thread, thanks to ATOAGT for starting it.

I think e-ticketing and web purchasing have really changed things. It used to be you got a pretty personalized treatment on the phone from someone (US agent, travel agent, etc) who would give you the scoop on ID/etc needed.

Now you hit a web page, give your CC number, and you have tickets. There was an interesting article in the Pittsburgh post-gazette a few weeks back of a family that was traveling to Canada separately and the daughter was last to come up. It ended up that the parents had packed her passport (I think?) and she couldnt get on the plane. The parents went to a USAirways agent at the Canadian destination airport with the passport and tried to get her on the plane, no dice.

I am not blaming anyone here - but all the airlines need to do a better job after the sale. It seems they all want to sell the $300 fare but dont care what happens next since fares are nonrefundable.

I was on my way to FPO one time connecting through CLT, and there was someone who'd made it from MYR to CLT, and then got rejected and returned to MYR because they didn't have the right paperwork to travel internationally. Apparently the MYR agent thought whatever she had was sufficient and let her get to Charlotte.

I just take a passport everywhere -- even on many domestic flights. Can't say that I know anything of the child rules, just those I have to deal with myself and with friends. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AS Flyer:

Your questions seem to be direct towards US Airways, almost as if you think that it's some stupid airline policy......
...
...
It's all perfectly logical and, given the number of kidnappings that take place, a very good idea.</font>

You completely misunderstood my intentions, I was trying to point out how dificult this must be to comply with, by pointing out cases where either the documentation would be non-standard and hard to tell if it was forged or not, or in the last case where no documentation will be available.

I completely agree with you about the kidnapping point, particularly in light of certain countries which don't allow the children to be returned i.e. the house of saud.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jcrb:
You completely misunderstood my intentions, I was trying to point out how dificult this must be to comply with, by pointing out cases where either the documentation would be non-standard and hard to tell if it was forged or not, or in the last case where no documentation will be available.

I completely agree with you about the kidnapping point, particularly in light of certain countries which don't allow the children to be returned i.e. the house of saud.</font>

My apologies. As to the question regarding forging documents, I can't imagine how they would know if documents were forged or not. I suppose that if someone did get by with forged documents, and then got caught by immigration officials, they would take the fall rather than they and the airline.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by rtpflyer:
No, there really are two legitimate sets of questions here. One set covers what the Goverment(s) require of the airlines and exactly how they penalize the airline if the requirements aren't met. The second set covers how the airlines translate what is required of them into exactly what THEY will require of passengers on their airline in order to insure that the airline's liability is minimized (including avoiding possible mistakes by airline personnel looking at unfamiliar paperwork). I suspect that some airlines could go way beyond the government requirements to cover their a$$, while other's might take a looser (more risky) position.</font>

Airlines do not have the latitude to impose restrictions greater than the governments on international travel.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AS Flyer:
Airlines do not have the latitude to impose restrictions greater than the governments on international travel.
</font>
Airlines seem to have problems complying with government restrictions much clearer than this. The practical effect may be that if the airline personnel are UNABLE to recognize documentation as legitimate, they may DECIDE that it isn't legitmate whether it actually is or not. Or they may DECIDE to assume the customer is presenting them legitimate documentation even if they aren't actually sure. In either case they may end up opening themselves up to after-the-fact damage claims, but that would be after damage is done (either to the passengers traveling (if the documentation was in fact valid) or to a non-consenting parent of the child and perhaps the child as well (if the documentation was in fact invalid)).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by rtpflyer:
Airlines seem to have problems complying with government restrictions much clearer than this. The practical effect may be that if the airline personnel are UNABLE to recognize documentation as legitimate, they may DECIDE that it isn't legitmate whether it actually is or not. Or they may DECIDE to assume the customer is presenting them legitimate documentation even if they aren't actually sure. In either case they may end up opening themselves up to after-the-fact damage claims, but that would be after damage is done (either to the passengers traveling (if the documentation was in fact valid) or to a non-consenting parent of the child and perhaps the child as well (if the documentation was in fact invalid)).</font>


If the airlines allow someone to travel that does not have proper documentation for any reason, including if the agent allowed improper documentation to get by, the airline is fined by the U.S. Customs service. If an agent is denying passage to someone with mistaken belief that the documents they posess are not amongst the required items then the passenger should
ask for a supervisor. If the airline supervisor is not responsive then they should ask for a U.S. Customs representative to be called onto the scene. U.S. Customs officers must be available at every airport offering nonstop international service.

I can see your point in that many airline rules and regulations are not uniformly enforced and open to interpretation. The government regulations regarding foriegn passage are not and strictly enforced by the U.S. Customs service. Unless you have any examples of the airlines not allowing passage when they should have I firmly believe this. I have yet to see any examples otherwise. I can tell you one mistaken notion that causes quite a bit of frustration amongst travelers. They often show up for flights to Mexico, Canada or the Caribbean with a social security card and a drivers license, or sometimes with just a drivers license. These folks often feel as though they are being singled out for a hard time and refuse to believe that their documentation is not proof of citizenship. Drivers Licenses and Social Security cards are NOT proof of citizenship and Canada, Mexico and the most Caribbean islands ARE foriegn countries and require proof of our citizenship.




[This message has been edited by AS Flyer (edited 08-18-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AS Flyer:
... I can tell you one mistaken notion that causes quite a bit of frustration amongst travelers. They often show up for flights to Mexico, Canada or the Caribbean with a social security card and a drivers license, or sometimes with just a drivers license. These folks often feel as though they are being singled out for a hard time and refuse to believe that their documentation is not proof of citizenship. Drivers Licenses and Birth Certificates are NOT proof of citizenship and Canada, Mexico and the most Caribbean islands ARE foriegn countries and require proof of our citizenship.</font>

WRT Canada (and probably Mexico) that's an understandable issue. The last time I drove to Canada (I admit it was a while ago...) a drivers license was perfectly adequate as it has been for millions of people for as long as they can remember. I suppose that must have changed recently but lots of people probably still think that all you need is a DL for Canada -- I'll bet the border guards get it all the time.

Also -- some destinations do accept birth certificates, for example Aruba:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">A valid U.S. passport, or a U.S. birth certificate (original or a certified copy) or Certificate of Naturalization accompanied by valid photo identification, must be presented. While a passport is not mandatory, it is recommended, since it is more readily recognized as positive proof of U.S. citizenship.</font>

Personally I always carry my passport with my carry-on bag -- it's my backup ID if I lose my drivers license from all that handling at the airport...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by AS Flyer:
If the airlines allow someone to travel that does not have proper documentation for any reason, including if the agent allowed improper documentation to get by, the airline is fined by the U.S. Customs service. If an agent is denying passage to someone with mistaken belief that the documents they posess are not amongst the required items then the passenger should
ask for a supervisor. If the airline supervisor is not responsive then they should ask for a U.S. Customs representative to be called onto the scene. U.S. Customs officers must be available at every airport offering nonstop international service.</font>I don't have any specific examples to quote, but I would be VERY surprised if a passenger was "cutting it close" on check-in time that the process of calling a supervisor and the calling for a U.S. Customs representative would result in the passenger being cleared to board the flight, but that it was by then too late to board (and then end up rebooked on a later flight). I do understand YOUR point about how often the PASSENGER makes incorrect assumptions about what will be accepted for valid documentation and then is surprised when they do NOT in fact meet the requirements. Finally, I don't know if this is standard procedure, but the last time I traveled out of the country, my documentation was checked at the U.S. ORIGINATING airport, not (or not only) at the U. S. CONNECTING airport for my overseas flight. I'm not sure I would have had a U. S. Customs official available if there had been a dispute over valid documentation at my ORIGINATING U. S. Airport.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TomBascom:
Personally I always carry my passport with my carry-on bag -- it's my backup ID if I lose my drivers license from all that handling at the airport...</font>

TomBascom -

You are right - I meant to say Drivers Licenses and Social Security cards. I changed the posting to reflect that. Thank you!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by rtpflyer:
I don't have any specific examples to quote, but I would be VERY surprised if a passenger was "cutting it close" on check-in time that the process of calling a supervisor and the calling for a U.S. Customs representative would result in the passenger being cleared to board the flight, but that it was by then too late to board (and then end up rebooked on a later flight). I do understand YOUR point about how often the PASSENGER makes incorrect assumptions about what will be accepted for valid documentation and then is surprised when they do NOT in fact meet the requirements. Finally, I don't know if this is standard procedure, but the last time I traveled out of the country, my documentation was checked at the U.S. ORIGINATING airport, not (or not only) at the U. S. CONNECTING airport for my overseas flight. I'm not sure I would have had a U. S. Customs official available if there had been a dispute over valid documentation at my ORIGINATING U. S. Airport.</font>
I'm sure there are instances where there are disputes about whether something is permitted, or it is not, for international travel documentation. I'm also sure that not everyone all the time makes their flights because the airlines have delayed them for an incorrect assumption on the part of the CSA. That being said, my point is that the airlines don't have the latitude to deviate from any of the requirements, one way or another. If an agent does make a mistake then the airline is at fault - pure and simple. I just don't believe that the airlines are responsible for that many people not making their flights because of disputes that arise about what may/may not be allowed. Most agents are pretty aware of what may and may not be acceptable and they have systems in their computers that tell them, in no uncertain terms, what is and what is not acceptable. It is good practice, if you have question, to err on the side of caution. It would be a whole lot of hassle for the airline AND the traveler if they showed up somewhere without proper documentation. The country that they are arriving would just send them back on the next flight - no questions asked. At that point you have no hope, whatsoever, of getting into that country until you obtain the proper documentation.



[This message has been edited by AS Flyer (edited 08-18-2003).]