India - Complaints about flying to India form Cabin crew

I have noticed on other threads (BA EK AF/KLetc ) that cabin crew do not seem to like operating flights to India. No reasons are cited in these posts. I do not hear similar complaints re flying to China. Anyone have any information on this score? What singles out India? The hotels are excellent, more Indians speak english than in many other developing countries... is it something to do with bureaucracy at the airport?


here is an example from the BA thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxx
It was AF and I know that the crew hate the BLR run. They stay at the same hotel as I used to. Can't give more details on it without becoming terribly politically incorrect.


And another from the same thread:

I'm quite happy to go on record as saying I never liked any of the Indian flights I operated, and yet I quite enjoyed India, and the hospiality offered there. Absolutely first class customer service (in fact, slightly OTT for my liking).

The cultural gap is huge and causes many problems onboard - more so than on almost any other flight on the BA network. These are facts, not opinions.

So I can't blame the AF crew ... OT but we stayed in the same hotel as AF ... but I think I'm confusing my BLR with my MAA ... I think it was Le Meridien? It's all a blur after a few years!

I always tease the LH crews aout flying to CCU and other places and surprisingly they say they like flying to India. Sure the work is stressful (Indian customers are demanding in relation to other routes) but it seems they enjoy the layover.

The only time I had not so willing crews was to BOM in December 2008 a few weeks after the attacks. LH crew on a layover were among the foreigners trapped in cafe mondegar :eek:

Firstly, I doubt if there are too many complaints about flying to India from crew belonging to "airlines of India". ;)

However, I do agree with what you are saying specifically about some carriers like BA and AF. But I think it is a lot to do with stereotyping and (lack of) open-mindedness by specific individuals, rather than a general trend.

Perhaps surprisingly, most LH crew however do seem to really enjoy India (DEL atleast!) and personally having, ahem interacted, with a few of them during their layovers in DEL, they absolutely adore the place and the hotel they stay in (which shall remain nameless!). At times all they want to do is eat "chaat and tikkis" and drink "dudh walli chai at a dhaba", while I am clamouring for schnitzel and riesling!! :D

Firstly, I doubt if there are too many complaints about flying to India from crew belonging to "airlines of India". ;)

so true....

However, I do agree with what you are saying specifically about some carriers like BA and AF. But I think it is a lot to do with stereotyping and (lack of) open-mindedness by specific individuals, rather than a general trend.

i have many many complaints about the ba cabin crew when flying to & from india....so much that i have stopped flying ba & went from a dozen yearly long haul international flights in business/first to zero last year....

so true....i have many many complaints about the ba cabin crew when flying to & from india....so much that i have stopped flying ba & went from a dozen yearly long haul international flights in business/first to zero last year....

Depends on specific crew surely? Or is this an attitude problem across all BA crews turning up in India?

Seen enough brits who go get a curry and kingfisher plus do enjoy coming to india, so ..

Depends on specific crew surely? Or is this an attitude problem across all BA crews turning up in India?

it seemed like an attitude problem across the board....i encountered it throughout 2008 & 2009....

so true....



i have many many complaints about the ba cabin crew when flying to & from india....so much that i have stopped flying ba & went from a dozen yearly long haul international flights in business/first to zero last year....

True I had no idea where to post thats why i guess the post was moved.

Interesting.. I have also had positive feedback from LH. Its interesting that one OP feels that Indian pax are more demanding.. I have always felt this is most true of US pax.

Its interesting that one OP feels that Indian pax are more demanding.
There is definitely a cultural difference (one that rubs many Westerners the wrong way) in the way that many Indian upper-class, and even middle-class, individuals behave toward people that are serving them. The attitude tends towards haughtiness and snappiness, with the expectation that service people will not talk back and will be obsequious. Is this universal? No. But it is prevalent enough that I have come to expect it when I visit India. I can imagine that this does not go over well with most BA FAs.

Well, indians are 'demanding' because:

- they are used to far higher service levels on domestic flights (food etc)
- they paid a pretty penny to get on the flight to fly abroad and want to get their money worth.

Examples are:
- not willing to accept that there is no veg meal available if you didn't prebook
- the FAs don't come running to serve snacks when you ring for them
- there are limits to the amount of alcohol served

Other markets like the US are used to far lower service levels, especially in coach. FAs report that pax are surprised about the amounts of alochol, food and 'comfort' offered in economy on LH :D:p

Depends on specific crew surely?

i had been coming across some rather rude service on my flights but the straw that broke the camel's back was a flight i took in 2009 from lhr - del on ba....my father was on the same flight & he had been unwell the last couple of days in london....i changed my flight details in order to fly back with him since i didn't want him traveling alone....he was traveling in first & i was in business....in fact, he was the only passenger in first....

we boarded the flight 20 minutes before departure & the crew saw me sitting with him till it was time for the flight to take off....when i was going back to business i informed this one particular stewardess that my father was not feeling well & i would be checking up on him from time to time & that she can come get me from my seat in case he needed anything....she didn't seem very happy with either one of my requests & just nodded....

my father fell asleep soon after the flight took off & every hour or so i kept checking in on him....i would go in first to see he was asleep & then go back to my seat....after the 3rd or 4th time the same stewardess stopped me saying that i was disturbing the first class passengers every time i went in....i asked her what passengers as my father was the only passenger in first class....she said it didn't matter how many passengers there were but i wasn't allowed inside....i didn't want to argue with her so i asked her if she could let me know when he wakes up....she said it was not her job to pass messages back between father & son....

that was it....i kept my cool & reported her attitude to ba after the flight....they eventually took her side saying that i was wrong to try to get into first class when i was a business class passenger....i have never stepped back on a ba flight since then....this incident among others have cost ba over 100 flights a year from my firm as i was instrumental in getting my firm to switch to jet & kingfisher....

i had been coming across some rather rude service on my flights but the straw that broke the camel's back was a flight i took in 2009 from lhr -del on ba....my father was on the same flight & he had been unwell the last couple of days in london....i changed my flight details in order to fly back with him since i didn't want him traveling alone....he was traveling in first & i was in business....in fact, he was the only passenger in first....

we boarded the flight 20 minutes before departure & the crew saw me sitting with him till it was time for the flight to take off....when i was going back to business i informed this one particular stewardess that my father was not feeling well & i would be checking up on him from time to time & that she can come get me from my seat in case he needed anything....she didn't seem very happy with either one of my requests & just nodded....

my father fell asleep soon after the flight took off & every hour or so i kept checking in on him....i would go in first to see he was asleep & then go back to my seat....after the 3rd or 4th time the same stewardess stopped me saying that i was disturbing the first class passengers every time i went in....i asked her what passengers as my father was the only passenger in first class....she said it didn't matter how many passengers there were but i wasn't allowed inside....i didn't want to argue with her so i asked her if she could let me know when he wakes up....she said it was not her job to pass messages back between father & son....

that was it....i kept my cool & reported her attitude to ba after the flight....they eventually took her side saying that i was wrong to try to get into first class when i was a business class passenger....i have never stepped back on a ba flight since then....this incident among others have cost ba over 100 flights a year from my firm as i was instrumental in getting my firm to switch to jet & kingfisher....

What a terrible incident! Especially since your father was the only pax in First. Having been a BA Gold for 5 years Ive flown woth BA a lot I have noticed an aittude problem on some sectors, compared to others. Service is better on the US/Canada South Africa and Australia routes compared with South Asia and East and West Africa routes

Thus, it appears the feeling is mutual. If so this can only spell trouble for BA India is the second largest investors in the UK (after the US) and so they had better learn to shape up!

Well, indians are 'demanding' because:

- they are used to far higher service levels on domestic flights (food etc)
- they paid a pretty penny to get on the flight to fly abroad and want to get their money worth.

Examples are:
- not willing to accept that there is no veg meal available if you didn't prebook
- the FAs don't come running to serve snacks when you ring for them
- there are limits to the amount of alcohol served

Other markets like the US are used to far lower service levels, especially in coach. FAs report that pax are surprised about the amounts of alochol, food and 'comfort' offered in economy on LH :D:p


Good helpful examples. Thx


I started this thread to test my perception that that although India is becoming one of the most important markets for global airlines their service attitude -- especially the European airlines -- continues to be to take this market for granted. The product experience is therefore inferior on India bound flights relative to other segments My perception is that this is becaiuse European managements have become lazy and smug about their captive India markets,. This attitude rubs off on Cabin crew and the service they deliver.


A couple of your examples also reflect this, in my view:

(1) Anyone responsible for planning services on India flights who knows what they are doing should know that you should always have a main line Indian vegetarian option. Yes its easier to dish out third rate vegetarian pasta but this is now too important a market to keep being so smug and lazy in product delivery. For me, this is as much of a no brainer as knowing not to serve a pork option on fliights to the Middle East.

(2) Statistically fewer Indian pax drink alcohol relative to, say, Europeans because the proportion of teetotal Indian pax is relatively larger. Yes there are binge drinkers and Ive seen them on board but I havent noticed the pronblem to be worse than, say, UK pax heading off from or to vacation in Y class. I therefore think the probllem is one of preconceived notions.


I think a large swathe of the market that EK and QR have grabbed off the Europeans is because they have addressed these issues We European airlines have not. In the past when India originating traffic was limited airlines could afford not to care Now this is one of the fastest growing airline markets in the world so they had better sit up and take notice.

My own view after reading the responses on this thread is that Indian pax need to get more -- and not less-- assertive -- about the specificities of their product experience. No one would dream of running a flight to Japan without a Japanese meal option, for example. It should be clear to airline managements that not having a vegetarian Indian option on flights to and from India would be as unacceptable as, say, having only Indian vegetarioan options on a JFK-FRA flight!

More attention also needs to be paid to cabin crew behaviour, prejudices and preconceptions on these segments. IMO,this can be best done by expanding the number of senior South Asian origin cabin crew working across the global network and using them to train the rest.

We European Airlines? Do you work for any of them? if so great to have you on ft and commenting

pretty extreme opinions, but worth of a response.

I can only speak of LH, haven't flown anything but LH & EK to India in the past years.

LH always has 2 indian FAs on their flights to India, who originate in India and have a different duty schedule and contract (which is better than the german contract BTW). These two have to help in the announcements and most importantly translate for the other FAs. Not only language, but social behaviour too.

LH FAs are very sensitised during their training to know how to behave towards Asians, be it Japanese, Indian, Middle Eastern etc. The veggie option has been addressed via a veggie menu choice, but still people preorder veggie meals and get separate service (the P1 goes thru the cabin to make sure the persons with the special meals are in the seats shown in the manifest etc) Other pax notice and suddenly decide to have a special meal too. If the veggie choice runs out the situation quickly escalates and the indian FA is called to mediate.
Last week I witnessed a discussion in the galley where an elderly gentleman claimed he was diabetic and was upset that LH didn't load atleast one diabetic meal on each flight. The argument that your TA has to preorder such meals didn't count. The FAs still scrambled and gave him fruits and other goodies from the crew meal.

OTOH I have witnessed pax just not caring: the toilets are often quickly in a fairly disgusting state. The FAs on the watch in between meals have to inspect the lavs and shut down any lavs that are inop or completely dirty. The frustation does add up when you are working and 3-4 uch incidents happen on one flight. So I can understand why they snap at someone.

I started this thread to test my perception that that although India is becoming one of the most important markets for global airlines their service attitude -- especially the European airlines -- continues to be to take this market for granted. The product experience is therefore inferior on India bound flights relative to other segments My perception is that this is becaiuse European managements have become lazy and smug about their captive India markets,. This attitude rubs off on Cabin crew and the service they deliver.
i think you started this thread to broadcast your own opinion, not to test any perception. Others' perceptions seem to be quite different from yours, but you have ignored them.



(1) Anyone responsible for planning services on India flights who knows what they are doing should know that you should always have a main line Indian vegetarian option. Every BA flight I have ever taken to India has served an Indian vegetarian meal, including Indian breads. None of this is served on non-Indian BA flights. That is hardly "taking the captive Indian market for granted" or acting "lazy and smug."

More attention also needs to be paid to cabin crew behaviour, prejudices and preconceptions on these segments. IMO,this can be best done by expanding the number of senior South Asian origin cabin crew working across the global network and using them to train the rest.BA's Indian flights have several, not one, Indian cabin crew working on all Indian flights. All announcements are made in Hindi as well as English, and at the beginning of the flight there is a mention made of all the different Indian languages spoken by the cabin crew. Indian movies are included on the IFE. What more do you expect? Are the pilots supposed to be Indian, too?

You are just wrong. I have no idea what flights you have been taking, but they are certainly not BA's.

pretty extreme opinions, but worth of a response.

I can only speak of LH, haven't flown anything but LH & EK to India in the past years.

LH always has 2 indian FAs on their flights to India, who originate in India and have a different duty schedule and contract (which is better than the german contract BTW). These two have to help in the announcements and most importantly translate for the other FAs. Not only language, but social behaviour too.

LH FAs are very sensitised during their training to know how to behave towards Asians, be it Japanese, Indian, Middle Eastern etc. The veggie option has been addressed via a veggie menu choice, but still people preorder veggie meals and get separate service (the P1 goes thru the cabin to make sure the persons with the special meals are in the seats shown in the manifest etc) Other pax notice and suddenly decide to have a special meal too. If the veggie choice runs out the situation quickly escalates and the indian FA is called to mediate.
Last week I witnessed a discussion in the galley where an elderly gentleman claimed he was diabetic and was upset that LH didn't load atleast one diabetic meal on each flight. The argument that your TA has to preorder such meals didn't count. The FAs still scrambled and gave him fruits and other goodies from the crew meal.

OTOH I have witnessed pax just not caring: the toilets are often quickly in a fairly disgusting state. The FAs on the watch in between meals have to inspect the lavs and shut down any lavs that are inop or completely dirty. The frustation does add up when you are working and 3-4 uch incidents happen on one flight. So I can understand why they snap at someone.


I am aware that there are Indian FAs on board BA/AF/LH They do not seem to mind operating to India the others do. Since my post refers to the global cabin crew my point was to use them to sensitise, if a sensitisation problem does exist. And I think it does, training nothwithstanding though again Ive never heard or seen any complaints from LH cabin crew.

I was just responding to your own point re a veggie meal option
What Indian airlines do in these circumstances is make the veggie meal (not necessarily Indian) the defualt meal Assuming everyone eats veg everyone gets a meal

the toilet issue is a new one you raise and frustration is copmpletely understandable. Is this peculiar to flights to India/South Asia?

OK, this is just hear say (also seen on one of the many documentaries about FRA on german television) but they (FAs and cleaning crews) say that flights from India and the US are the most cleaning intensive in FRA. One reason for that could be that the aircraft are not extensively cleaned by design in the outstations due to time or cost constraints.

i think you started this thread to broadcast your own opinion, not to test any perception. Others' perceptions seem to be quite different from yours, but you have ignored them.



Every BA flight I have ever taken to India has served an Indian vegetarian meal, including Indian breads. None of this is served on non-Indian BA flights. That is hardly "taking the captive Indian market for granted" or acting "lazy and smug."

BA's Indian flights have several, not one, Indian cabin crew working on all Indian flights. All announcements are made in Hindi as well as English, and at the beginning of the flight there is a mention made of all the different Indian languages spoken by the cabin crew. Indian movies are included on the IFE. What more do you expect? Are the pilots supposed to be Indian, too?

You are just wrong. I have no idea what flights you have been taking, but they are certainly not BA's.


re the meal, I was responding to a specific post, please see the post quoted.

Your unsolicited opinion on my posting intentions is noted with amusement. I am indeed expressing my own opinion. I have no experience of expressing anyone elses :p

I am generalising about European airlines just as the posts I refer to generalise about India and Indians.:p Your sensitivity re BA is therefore inexplicable -- i have not referred to BA in particular in my post. Even so, if you care to read Keysers posts in this thread you will see that there are issues with BA specifically.

Adding ethnic touches to a route specific hard product, throwing in Indian cabin crew and making annouincements in Hindi etc are all good things to do. They are necessary but not sufficient. .

The attitude: ""we speak your lingo, we give you your native food, you get your entertainment so now shut up and behave"" will need to change and it is this that management needs to get less smug about.

Product delivery is not the same in a service industry as product existence And when there is evidence that things are not going well: eg cabin crew behaviour is worse on a specific route or in a specific market and (motivating this thread) there are posts from cabin crew expressing their distaste for operating routes to the market -- then it is important to work hard at addressing the issues

Finally if you read my response to Keysers last post you will see I have plenty of experience on BA and some affection for the airline but nevertheless feel that product delivery is poorer in some markets (not just South Asia) compared to others.

I dont think there are any Indian pilots left to recruit for global operations even if BA wished to do so There are on the other hand European pilots on the Indian airlines and they do a good job too.

OK, this is just hear say (also seen on one of the many documentaries about FRA on german television) but they (FAs and cleaning crews) say that flights from India and the US are the most cleaning intensive in FRA. One reason for that could be that the aircraft are not extensively cleaned by design in the outstations due to time or cost constraints.

Destination turnaround is pretty rapid in all South Asia stations and I think also in most US stations. In the case of your airline (LH) they did pretty amazing turnarounds at JFK when i was posted there.

But this would not explain dislike, of South Asia specific routes, no? I really do think more and more looking at these conversations that there are perception issues that need to be addressed.

Your unsolicited opinion on my posting intentions is noted with amusement. I am indeed expressing my own opinion. I have no experience of expressing anyone elses :p
Here is where I got my "opinion" of your posting intentions:I started this thread to test my perception that...

You're right, you did not refer to BA in particular. On the contrary, you seem ready to simply accuse all European airlines of the same bad behavior--which you are not actually describing anyway, beyond making vague pronouncements about "smugness" and taking Indian passengers for granted. I am being specific about BA because that is an airline that I can be specific about, as far as presenting facts that entirely contradict the vague accusations that you are making.

Adding ethnic touches to a route specific hard product, throwing in Indian cabin crew and making annouincements in Hindi etc are all good things to do. They are necessary but not sufficient.OK then--what is "sufficient," in your mind? You seem to be implying that the only thing that would satisfy you would be to have a 100% Indian crew who behave the way Indians like their service staff to behave, 100% Indian food so that no one would ever have to suffer with a non-Indian vegetarian meal, etc. Really, do you think that is remotely realistic--or desirable, considering that there are a lot of non-Indian passengers on these flights also?

(motivating this thread) there are posts from cabin crew expressing their distaste for operating routes to the marketI provided a possible reason for that distaste. oliver2002 provided another one. Both have to do with the behavior of passengers.

I am not making any ""accusations"" of ""bad behaviour"" Simply stating my own opinion regarding route specific differential quality of service. So take it easy


The problem, in my view, is one of perceptional biases Restated here it is:

The attitude: ""we speak your lingo, we give you your native food, you get your entertainment so now shut up and behave"" will need to change and it is this that management needs to get less smug about.

I have engaged with Oliver 2002's reasons and have benefited from the discussion

In your case there is little discussion happening, just aggression. and pointless imputation of motives. I do not choose to engage with your ""reason"" as to me it reflects your perceptional bias about how Indians of a certain class behave with other Indians , which you then transmute to the context of this thread I think such perceptional biases are what cause the problem in the first place.

The attitude: ""we speak your lingo, we give you your native food, you get your entertainment so now shut up and behave""
What exactly do you mean by this? What kind of actual behavior, specifically, can you point to that results from this "attitude"? I'm still waiting for you to describe anything specific that any airline crew member has done to Indian passengers in your experience, or an airline policy that treats Indians badly. You keep talking about an "attitude problem" and "smugness" on "certain routes," but giving absolutely no illustration of how that problem manifests itself. It's hard to understand what you expect the airlines to do about a supposed problem when you can't even describe what that problem is.

This thread appears to be morphing from a stimulating conversation to a hostile and accusatory argument. To prevent a lock up, can we please remain civil and stay focused on the topic: "do foreign FAs not enjoy their India flights".

Babu
Moderator, India forum

Let me quote an example or two of active hostility rather than simply a perceptible downgrading in service compared to other flights of the same airline, on other routes. And no, I don't go aboard expecting to be waited on hand and foot, and I stick to tomato juice on board flights.

After all the European FA rants .. this example was from a US airline for a change - CO. And this happened to a frequent flyer friend who says it happened to him (and not to a friend of a friend etc). One of the FAs was doing the "chicken or pasta" walk - but for some reason she kept adding a default "dont touch me" to the end of that. "Chicken or Pasta? Dont touch me". Even to people both of whose hands were on, say, a book or a laptop rather than any part of her person.

And this happened to me .. on an EK flight a few years back from MAA to an african destination (LOS I think). The MAA flight parked at a remote hardstand and there were a bunch of ground staff there to escort us to various other connecting flights with our bags. The LOS flight was a bus ride away to a terminal, and transfer to another bus to the DXB-LOS aircraft .. our escort was a young emirati man who kept yelling "you indian passengers are all like this, stay in line", when he was not glued on a cellphone talking to somebody. So not a complaint about the cabin crew - always great on board EK.

That sort of thing happens, it gets very tempting indeed to reply with some equally disgusting politically incorrect comment (about rednecks, or about camels and dishtowels for example) .. not that I'd make any such.

My point is that some attitudes exist and just won't fade away that easily - cross sensitization isn't going to be a cure all, and nor is bringing a certain number of asian FAs along, loading a "veg and non veg indian" option instead of the usual beef or pasta, on the outbound leg from India - even with extra "veg meals" loaded etc.

Doesn't change people at all. Let me give you a more positive example, which started from not having a special (vegetarian) meal available.

I was flying AC to FRA (from somewhere on the canadian east coast, forgot where) about 4 years back .. there was a pregnant Indian woman a couple of rows ahead of me, who didn't speak much English, only Telugu. And she didn't have a special vegetarian meal on order, couldn't eat even the bread (because it was a roll with sesame seeds on it that she was allergic to) or the veggies (which were a bit coated with sauce from the beef).

I spent some time translating what she said to the cabin crew, and then the purser came along .. a fatherly looking type in his late 40s, in this case. He apologized that they didn't have any special meal available, explained that she should have pre-ordered it, and finally suggested that she take the veggies, scrape the beef sauce off and eat them, as an alternative.

I quickly explained why that wouldn't be possible, and by this time, other pax who had been listening pitched in with a granola bar here, an apple there. And after the flight, I took her with me to the SEN lounge in FRA so she could fill up on croissants and hot chocolate.

That flight - the crew, the pax etc - all deserved a medal of some sort, especially when compared to some of the other cases of hostility I've seen here and there.

I had a similar situation with KLM in 1992 flying CCU-DEL-AMS: for some reason they had a chicken or beef option only :confused: Anyway, when a fellow pax mentioned he is vegetarian the friendly FA quickly picked up the beef meat with a fork and served him the remaining veggies and the tray saying, 'its okay, I removed the meat::D:D The horror on the face of the poor guys face (I suppose of Gujrati/Jain origin) is something I remember nearly 20 years later.

Don't get me started about EK and DXB: the arab ground staff have a serious attitude problem with indians: it starts with the xray of luggage, behaviour at checkin, immigration and most irritatingly the §§&%§@ checking immigration papers before you board.

The GF ground staff at BAH take the cake .. the ones that are in charge of the deck that's supposed to reroute you for fresh flights / arrange a hotel etc when you misconnect (which given GF's antiquated 320 shorthaul fleet, is extremely frequent .. those planes make the old IC320s look brand new).

The lounge had this pretty (and helpful) estonian woman though - personally rerouted me onto a SV flight (I was flying to RUH) whereas the GF desk was hell bent on seeing that I caught a GF connecting flight late that night (about 7 hours later)

Its an inferiority complex, in my view, when it comes to the Emirati public employees

But check in too? That is very bad. Ive only checked in at DXB once on Emirates and my agent was Filipina I remember chatting about Manila with her Generally Ive found EK exceptionally good on this score. In fact in Emirates with its multinational crew etc the perceptional biases I have been referring to in other posts I find to be completely absent on board. Something to learn from in my opiniion

My point is that some attitudes exist and just won't fade away that easily - cross sensitization isn't going to be a cure all, and nor is bringing a certain number of asian FAs along, loading a "veg and non veg indian" option instead of the usual beef or pasta, on the outbound leg from India - even with extra "veg meals" loaded etc. .


+1 I think yoiu have put it very crisply and concisely. Let me put it from the point of view of a hypothetical alliance manager responsible for the South Asia market

It is the fastest growing market in the world. It is highly competitive. Traffic originating is growing exponentially including in premium classes.

But....
the rise of the Middle East mega carriers and the imminent rise to global prominence of at least one South Asian airline (Jet) threatens the ailliances lead position in carying traffic 'from SOuth Asia to Europe Africa and the Americas.

In the short term nothing can be done about the hard product to compete better and, in fact the hard product is pretty competitive. Visa restrictions on transit etc and the like make matters worse but are outside managment control. What about soft product?


Reading the mosaic, there is prima facie evidence of perception bias. affecting delivery of soft product..CC reluctance to service the subcontinent flights, complaints about demanding pax, customer feedback on poor discretionary treatment (keysers post is a good example of poor discretionary treatment ) etc.

Ha! So here is something within ones control in the soft product.

But it becomes difficult to explain to senior management of the airlines that an improvement area exists that needs work on rather than sitting back smugly and saying weve done all this ethnic specific stuff and spent money on sensitisation training (Ive done those and they are siimply godawful in the generalisations they encourage by the way ) 'hired ethnics to work the ethnic route, and so on --- now if its not working, then there must be a sociological explanation ie the Indians sense of entitlement, etc etc

(by the way, this approach already has an inbuilt perceptional bias.in problem identification. i.e the problem identified is insufficient attention to ethnic specificities )

One problem, of course, is that airlines (other than EK and a handful of others) do extremely limited global hiring to fill management positions. Alliances definitionally have global management teams so it becomes far easier to see these things from that vantage.

While carriers like EK have got quite a few things right, what they seem to miss is language. I travel on EK frequently to / from MAA and have not heard a single announcement made in Tamil, the local language. A large section of the passengers doesn't really understand English well on these flights and having a simple pre-recorded set of announcements will help significantly. Especially useful in keeping passengers in their seats when the plane has landed and is still taxiing to the gate.

While carriers like EK have got quite a few things right, what they seem to miss is language. I travel on EK frequently to / from MAA and have not heard a single announcement made in Tamil, the local language. A large section of the passengers doesn't really understand English well on these flights and having a simple pre-recorded set of announcements will help significantly. Especially useful in keeping passengers in their seats when the plane has landed and is still taxiing to the gate.

GOod point Ek should take note as SQ and MAS do it Yes they have ethnoc tamil populations from which to source CC but then, in a manner of aspeaking, so does the UAE!

I was staying at a hotel in NJ last week where BA crew also stay. I struck up a nice conversation in the lift with a couple of FA's, one of whom was a purser, and I invited them to the concierge lounge for a chinwag and some drinks. While there, we were discussing demanding passengers (and I admitted to being one), but I was a little disappointed by the following comment that the purser made:

"I cannot deal with the average Indian passenger, especially the men" They went on to discuss common stereotypes and there is no point going into them here, but I was not very happy when it emerged we had crossed over from mild humorous observations into what I considered blatantly anti-Indian passenger sentiment.

I told them that one of the things I noticed in flights on BA to Pakistan in the 70's and 80's was that often a passenger would ask a FA a question, but even before the passenger got two words out the FA would shout towards the galley "Call the National, please, call the National!" and would promptly sod off, expecting the National to take care of it. Lets face it, most of the time it's going to be - Can I have a blanket, pillow, cup of tea, etc. It's not going to be a discussion on the treaty of Lichtenstein now, is it?

Anyway, I think that gives one data point on this subject, and I hope it's a minority one.

If your conversation was over drinks in a Lounge I would definitely not quote it here and "blame" the FAs for it. It is their opinion mentioned over drinks, and maybe coming from a not-so-extensive experience.

I am now in India for the 6th time in ~6 months, and during my flights I could see few types of passengers:
- Western tourists who don't care about service, they are going for a cheap holiday
- Indian executives who are very "precious" and careful to do anything to be noticed by other pax; IME this ranges from telling the FA out-loud how much he paid for the C fare, to spending an extra 120 seconds to arrange his watch and to turn on iPhone, while keeping Y pax behind the curtain. The FA and Y pax were all looking at him in disapproval.
- Western executives who enjoy seeing the ones above, all they care about is getting some sleep on the flight and to leave the airport asap on arrival.
- Indian travellers who do not ask any questions and stick to rules during the flight like it's a military exercise. It's exact same type of behaviour that one can see across Europe with pax flying for first time. Curious is that once plane landed, they same people instantly start to move around for their luggage, even if there are 10 more minutes to leaving the aircraft.

All-in-all, I am sure there are cabin crew who don't enjoy only flights to HKG, SIN, BKK and JFK, somebody needs to fly to areas with less infrastructure, higher security risk and more demanding pax.

If your conversation was over drinks in a Lounge I would definitely not quote it here and "blame" the FAs for it. It is their opinion mentioned over drinks, and maybe coming from a not-so-extensive experience.

They made comments that I thought were at best derogatory to Indians, and at worse, racist. I did not name the two individuals, and they knew I was not impressed with their thoughts on the subject, so I see no problem in posting about it here.

"I cannot deal with the average Indian passenger, especially the men" They went on to discuss common stereotypes and there is no point going into them here, but I was not very happy when it emerged we had crossed over from mild humorous observations into what I considered blatantly anti-Indian passenger sentiment.

sounds like this one guy i came across on a lhr-del flight a few years ago....my seat in business was stuck & wouldn't come back up....i informed the hostess about this & she was in the process of getting someone to fix it....just then the fasten seat belt sign came on as we were about to land....another 5 minutes pass by & no one has come by to fix the seat....then this steward passes by my seat & gives me a dirty look....his exact words were 'why can't you indian men ever follow the rules????put that seat up immediately"....i got up from my seat, looked him dead in the eye & said that if he did not apologize immediately then i would make it my purpose in life that he never worked for any airline ever again & i could accomplish that feat without breaking a sweat....he mumbled some sort of an apology & just rushed off....

Best place to troll for more of this BS would be the FA equivalent of pprune I guess.

And the fun part about negative racial stereotypes is that there's no shortage of a*holes that actually fit the bill to a large extent. That kind of helps the prejudice based stereotype along ..

ps: @saad / keyser .. kind of helps to be a hotshot lawyer like you are, to get an FA's ... fired from his airline for being dumber and more hostile than usual. But yes, probably the best response to hostility that you don't deserve is to stand up to it.

Best place to troll for more of this BS would be the FA equivalent of pprune I guess.

And the fun part about negative racial stereotypes is that there's no shortage of a*holes that actually fit the bill to a large extent. That kind of helps the prejudice based stereotype along ..

ps: @saad / keyser .. kind of helps to be a hotshot lawyer like you are, to get an FA's ... fired from his airline for being dumber and more hostile than usual. But yes, probably the best response to hostility that you don't deserve is to stand up to it.

the truth of the matter is that i could have probably not gotten that guy fired, let alone make sure he never works for any other airline....but the reason these guys get away with things like this is because no one stands up to them....if you give me unnecessary attitude then you will get it right back from me....

They made comments that I thought were at best derogatory to Indians, and at worse, racist. I did not name the two individuals, and they knew I was not impressed with their thoughts on the subject, so I see no problem in posting about it here.

I thhink your data point si interesting precisely because its over drinks etc. My point is that if personal (as aopposed to formal, and therefore workplace sanitised) attitudes are negative then we have more work to do than we thought.

the truth of the matter is that i could have probably not gotten that guy fired, let alone make sure he never works for any other airline....but the reason these guys get away with things like this is because no one stands up to them....if you give me unnecessary attitude then you will get it right back from me....

+1 and in the long run it helps the airline improve by weeding out thsi sort of nonsense. No one.. and I mean NO one.. who works in an airline should be allowed to make that sort of nationality specific comment. I can assure you that on LH/LX if there had been a specific complaint then there would have been an enquiry and if there were any airline employee witneses willing to testify, the Staff members services would be terminated. ( they tend to protect one another just liek in all professions) Even otherwise he would be on close watch..

If your conversation was over drinks in a Lounge I would definitely not quote it here and "blame" the FAs for it. It is their opinion mentioned over drinks, and maybe coming from a not-so-extensive experience.

I am now in India for the 6th time in ~6 months, and during my flights I could see few types of passengers:
- Western tourists who don't care about service, they are going for a cheap holiday
- Indian executives who are very "precious" and careful to do anything to be noticed by other pax; IME this ranges from telling the FA out-loud how much he paid for the C fare, to spending an extra 120 seconds to arrange his watch and to turn on iPhone, while keeping Y pax behind the curtain. The FA and Y pax were all looking at him in disapproval.
- Western executives who enjoy seeing the ones above, all they care about is getting some sleep on the flight and to leave the airport asap on arrival.
- Indian travellers who do not ask any questions and stick to rules during the flight like it's a military exercise. It's exact same type of behaviour that one can see across Europe with pax flying for first time. Curious is that once plane landed, they same people instantly start to move around for their luggage, even if there are 10 more minutes to leaving the aircraft.

All-in-all, I am sure there are cabin crew who don't enjoy only flights to HKG, SIN, BKK and JFK, somebody needs to fly to areas with less infrastructure, higher security risk and more demanding pax.



I would cut the ""Western"" category in two different ways


Western executives/businessmen/tourists/bounty hunters/etc who think they understand Indian (or Pakistani or Bangladeshi ) ""psychology"" and so how to deal with ""these Indians/Bangladeshis etc (I love it when they generalise about nearly 2 billion people) and deal with South Asian passengers, airport staff etc on this basis resulting in some rather misguided and odd flareups.

Western executives/businessmen/toursists who dont do the above. They understand the diversity of the subcontinent, the absurdity of cultural generalisation across such a diverse cultural space They enjoy their experiences and generate a lot of mutual affection fun and good business

The balance in my view is still with the former though they have learnt/been forced by corporate necessity to hide it. The latter is increasing in volume though.

Incidentally, in Brazil where I am now posted suffers the same kind of stereotyping by some foreigners though less sharp because the country looks superficially white and the citizens appear to be largely european immihgrants, the indigenous population having been killed off or foced into the periphery many years ago.

+1 clear enough to me

...the country looks superficially white and the citizens appear to be largely european immihgrants, the indigenous population having been killed off or foced into the periphery many years ago.

I know another country like that ;)

shhhhh!

The categories are well summarised. The Western/Indian executives, etc ;) If its of any comfort to Indian PAX BA cabin crew seem to have the same attitude to all PAX on most routes. It's not even attitude but a belief that they are running the best military service anywhere. That is why I much prefer Eastern carriers.

But generalising again my wife has the following opinions. Western carriers are efficient but discourteous. South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, etc) are courteous and inefficient. But Asia Pacific carriers such as Cathay Pacific and Singapore are both courteous and efficient. Hence most of my business goes to them if at all possible.

The categories are well summarised. The Western/Indian executives, etc ;) If its of any comfort to Indian PAX BA cabin crew seem to have the same attitude to all PAX on most routes. It's not even attitude but a belief that they are running the best military service anywhere. That is why I much prefer Eastern carriers.

But generalising again my wife has the following opinions. Western carriers are efficient but discourteous. South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, etc) are courteous and inefficient. But Asia Pacific carriers such as Cathay Pacific and Singapore are both courteous and efficient. Hence most of my business goes to them if at all possible.

Thats a nice summary :-) let me nuance with some generalising exceptions


Western category -- NOT efficient: TAP, Iberia the greek airlines, Alitalia (ugh!) and most former Eastern bloc airlines (LOT is a nice exception to the exception).



S Asian category: Indigo is efficient; Air India courteous? -- depends which Air india you are flying on a particular day.

SPECIAL: Emirates I think is courteous AND efficient Maybe because its a blend of South Asia and the West, Dubai style (Ie the South Asians do all the work and the Westerners are ""top management""" -- i.e they are featured in articles with titles like The emirates story)

Rest of Asia: Not courteous: All the chinese airlines
Not efficient: THAI, Malaysia, Phillipine airlines, JAL, korean Air, MIAT
Add to category ( c + e): Asiana, and maybe those two funny taiwanese airlines whose names I can never recall

Of course my comments (or can I simply blame my wife for her comments?) should be taken with a big pinch of salt.

Mine too, of course...!

SPECIAL: Emirates I think is courteous AND efficient Maybe because its a blend of South Asia and the West, Dubai style

Except for the Emirati ground staff as pointed out upthread. And they're enough to ruin any experience of transit through DXB [not to mention, all this is if you fly J, if you fly Y all bets are off especially on south asia to dxb runs]

MH is certainly courteous and not very efficient but on the other hand, they serve satay in J. Asiana is not bad, EVA and China Airlines are again not particularly bad. Certainly all 3 are no comparison to SQ.