TalkBoard Topics - Is the TB looking at MilePoint?

Seems to me that there is a lot to be learned from the work going on over at MilePoint.

Is the TB actively looking at it and/or discussing some of the differences between FT and MP? Are any of our elected representatives participating in the face-to-face meetings convened to populate MP with data?

Any action planned to maintain the integrity, competitiveness and dominance of FT in light of the new/old kid on the block?

Seems to me that there is a lot to be learned from the work going on over at MilePoint.

Is the TB actively looking at it and/or discussing some of the differences between FT and MP? Are any of our elected representatives participating in the face-to-face meetings convened to populate MP with data?

Any action planned to maintain the integrity, competitiveness and dominance of FT in light of the new/old kid on the block?

We have a super-secret set of spies scouting and sabotaging MP. :p

Seriously, the TalkBoard has its hands full with all the draft ideas I'm throwing at them this week. We are focused as always on making FT better without regard to what other sites do that is outside the capabilities of the vbulletin software. If vbulletin can't do it already or with minor modifications, it's off the table for FT. That's the way things have always been.

The TalkBoard is supposed to make judgments about how we can improve the value to FT to members. We listen to our members and we try hard to consider the interests of non-vocal members and potential members. We are only human and we will never agree 100% with any FT member. But if there's something you want and you don't post it in TalkBoard Topics, then you can only blame yourself.

I believe that 2011 has the potential to be a great year for the TalkBoard. For the moment it appears that we have a greater scope of action than ever before. So go ahead and be ambitious with those ideas.

We are only human and we will never agree 100% with any FT member.


That is a pretty pompous statement. You will never agree 100% with any FT member?

Do you realize that you are stating that no matter what anybody on flyertalk says you will always find disagreement. Ouch. Now I clearly understand the defection to milepoint.

We are focused as always on making FT better without regard to what other sites do that is outside the capabilities of the vbulletin software. If vbulletin can't do it already or with minor modifications, it's off the table for FT. That's the way things have always been.

The TalkBoard is supposed to make judgments about how we can improve the value to FT to members. We listen to our members and we try hard to consider the interests of non-vocal members and potential members. I believe that 2011 has the potential to be a great year for the TalkBoard. For the moment it appears that we have a greater scope of action than ever before. So go ahead and be ambitious with those ideas.

That is a pretty pompous statement. You will never agree 100% with any FT member?

Do you realize that you are stating that no matter what anybody on flyertalk says you will always find disagreement. Ouch. Now I clearly understand the defection to milepoint.

Oh good grief. I think you read way more into the statement than was intended and also misinterpreted it.

And FWIW - from what has been mentioned in Omni re: FT & MP, people are frequenting both BB - and in the case of MP, waiting to see what it looks like post-beta. There are things people don't like about MP or would like to see incorporated, but of course the place to provide that input is on MP.

Just as the place to offer input re: changes, new ideas for FT, etc, is on FT, whether it be in TB or in the Suggestions forum for IB.

Cheers.

We have a super-secret set of spies scouting and sabotaging MP. :pOh, sweet. Stazi vs. CIA. Code-breaking and cold war disinformation. This is going to be cool! :D

Seriously, the TalkBoard has its hands full with all the draft ideas I'm throwing at them this week. We are focused as always on making FT better without regard to what other sites do that is outside the capabilities of the vbulletin software. If vbulletin can't do it already or with minor modifications, it's off the table for FT. That's the way things have always been.

The TalkBoard is supposed to make judgments about how we can improve the value to FT to members. We listen to our members and we try hard to consider the interests of non-vocal members and potential members. We are only human and we will never agree 100% with any FT member. But if there's something you want and you don't post it in TalkBoard Topics, then you can only blame yourself.

I believe that 2011 has the potential to be a great year for the TalkBoard. For the moment it appears that we have a greater scope of action than ever before. So go ahead and be ambitious with those ideas.

I hate to sound like a one note pianist, buy you DID ask for input! ;) One of the wonderful, liberating things about MP right now is that there is no mega-threading going on. I can post a new spin on an old topic and it is not immediately mega-threaded into oblivion. Instead there is a natural discussion around it then it fades back in the pages.

For this reason and this reason alone, I am personally using MP to start new threads, but still reading and responding to threads here (other than OMNI and PR, natch!).

Of course, I brought this issue up before (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1161146-mega-threads-out-control-what-can-tb-do-fix.html)and it was perma-locked as too general, off-topic and/or unfixable.

That's the thing about competition, though ...it should make everyone try harder.

I DO applaud your pro-activism though, nsx. I hope that you don't find the TB 'culture of no' as frustrating as I did though.

Finally, I'm still curious to know how many of our TB members are on MP and whether any of y'all are attending the content building meetings.

One of the wonderful, liberating things about MP right now is that there is no mega-threading going on. I can post a new spin on an old topic and it is not immediately mega-threaded into oblivion. Instead there is a natural discussion around it then it fades back in the pages.

In the context of the normally quiet Southwest forum, I agree with you. For the first several days after the January 6 announcement of the new Rapid Rewards I merged new threads into the main announcement thread. In retrospect this was a mistake. I failed to realize that the main thread would rapidly grow to hundreds of posts (it's now over 1000), making it far too long to read.

I wanted to break it into at least 3 subjects, but I didn't have the time to sort through the posts. A natural evolution of topics would have been better for everyone. Laissez faire, as it were, with the posters or lack thereof determining whether each thread would sink or swim.

That said, your concern is out of scope for the TalkBoard. It's one that moderators discuss with some regularity, and I am reluctant to presume that I know how to deal with busy forums. Once you can no longer read everything, the game changes entirely.

You may find that the MP experience is mostly a result of light traffic. Quiet forums are naturally more friendly and fun than busy forums. On Internet boards, success carries a price. I expect MP to feel exactly like FT if it reaches the same traffic levels. In the meantime, users of busy forums on FT have a quieter place to go. Users of the quiet forums on FT like them and don't feel the urge to go anywhere.

Sorry for going all OMNI on you, but you did ask... ;)

I registered for MP at the suggestion of a FTer who suggested doing so to keep my handle in case someone else tried taking it. Can't see why they would, but hey ya never know.

I've posted a couple of times, but not much. I've been on the road & haven't posted on FT lately, so just getting caught up. Quite frankly I'm not sure I have the time to go to 2 BBs on the same topics, and right now especially as a TB member, my priority is FT.

Currently MP looks a lot like FT ;) I didn't make the content building meetings because I was already traveling, they're not held where I'm at, & I'm not willing to spend my $$ to travel somewhere to help someone build content, especially when they're the ones that will be making the $$ (as you pointed out). Perhaps if I'd been in town & they were held near me, that would be different, but I wasn't & they weren't. I'm sure they had plenty of people so didn't miss me.

If people have suggestions for FT, I definitely encourage them to post in TB forum and/or suggestions forum for IB. We'll certainly consider them (vBulletin software allowing of course), and that culture of no might not be as strong as you think.

FWIW - I don't think mega-threads are really under the purview of TB. But since you did raise the issue, I've noticed there are less of them in some of the forums so perhaps some folk were listening ;)

Cheers.

My bold:

One of the wonderful, liberating things about MP right now is that there is no mega-threading going on.

You're just enjoying the new car smell which always fades.

I too have been over to 'the other side' and chosen a nice new name for myself.

It's clearly attracted a lot of people who have left or been suspended from FT in the past. In addition they seem to have very different ideas re:governance.

I like the look and feel of MP, and the ease of inserting pictures and video makes it a much richer feel. However FT has history and a core of loyal posters. Plus of course, Moderation is handled differently at each site.

Please don't forget that there are a lot of new people over there that don't have the history and dare I say the baggage the some of the "core" of FT have.

I really don't care what happened in the past. We shall see what happens in the future. I just don't understand everyone bringing up the suspended people.

That said, what if anything is TB doing to improve FT?

What are your plans for the coming year?

What are is TB going to do to keep this travel forum fresh and exciting?

I just don't understand everyone bringing up the suspended people.

Good point.

I can't figure it out either.

I can't figure it out either.

Nor me. Let's not go any further on the subject of suspended members, or yearning for the "good old days".

It has nothing to do with suspended people, the "good ol' days" or new car smell.

It has everything to do with culture.

FT TOS likely prohibits me from giving specific examples.

But I believe I can say that until some people at FT understand, recognize and act upon the massive difference in culture between the two sites, the pendulum will shift to MilePoint.

If and how FT adjusts is the barometer on just how fast (not if, but how fast) the pendulum will swing over to MilePoint.

That's your opinion, which is fine. Others differ.

But as I stated in the Omni forum on the same topic, I think the demise of FT & the second coming of you know who re: MP is overstated.

There is room for both BB (and others) in the world. It's not an either/or nor is it one will die & the other survive.

Having said that, there are pros/cons to each BB. I have no doubt both will do fine. Just as I have no doubt both have areas to be improved. Right now MP is basically FT Lite. Will it change in the future? Sure. Can FT use some changes? Sure.

Instead of the chicken little stuff, I'd rather folks put forward what they like, what they don't like, enhancements, etc, re: their thoughts on FT & what they'd like us to consider either keeping, changing or implementing.

Cheers.

Instead of the chicken little stuff, I'd rather folks put forward what they like, what they don't like, enhancements, etc, re: their thoughts on FT & what they'd like us to consider either keeping, changing or implementing.

Cheers.

Some improvements I would like to see:

Rotate moderators - allow "new blood" in - some folks have 3/4 forums - have more people who want to be volunteers the opportunity

Stop with the merging of the threads - archive posts that are >3 years old and alllow searching if somebody wants to - keep things fresh but make it easy for people to find things.

There are certain people who are continuously snarky and offer no information yet due to pure post count they are seen as "evangelists". Get rid of the "extra" titles. Or get rid of the threads that count for post counting like counting from 1 to 1billion.

Bring back live chats with airline/hotel people. Those were interesting - but make them live/webinar rather than the slow chat that currently exists.

Some improvements I would like to see:

Rotate moderators - allow "new blood" in - some folks have 3/4 forums - have more people who want to be volunteers the opportunity

Stop with the merging of the threads - archive posts that are >3 years old and alllow searching if somebody wants to - keep things fresh but make it easy for people to find things.

There are certain people who are continuously snarky and offer no information yet due to pure post count they are seen as "evangelists". Get rid of the "extra" titles. Or get rid of the threads that count for post counting like counting from 1 to 1billion.

Bring back live chats with airline/hotel people. Those were interesting - but make them live/webinar rather than the slow chat that currently exists.

Thanks for the input! Some of it TB can affect. Some of it TB can't, but I'll pass long your input to those who could.

Cheers.

I too have been over to 'the other side' and chosen a nice new name for myself.

I like the look and feel of MP, and the ease of inserting pictures and video makes it a much richer feel. However FT has history and a core of loyal posters.

This seems to make the important points IMO. I have my username there too. I too like the feel. It is obviously FT light, but with a slick platform underpinning, so it seems.

I have a fair amount of personal investment in FlyerTalk and have no desire to bash anybody. The variety and choice at FlyerTalk are valuable as is the passion flet by many people regarding their particular interests.

It is inevitable that some people will be distressed about MP. How could anybody expect otherwise?

It is also important to learn what appears to work well at MP so we can continue to improve FlyerTalk.

The biggest risk IMHO, is that some of the most active and involved FlyerTalkers might deflect some of their energy to the other side. "the grass is always greener.." is certainly a factor.

Just as SkiAdcock suggested and idsant responded we should, be spending out effort trying to improve rather than anything else.

BTW, years ago I became CEO of a bank after the founder, my predecessor, left on very bad terms. That taught me a hard lesson; it matters not who leaves or why, but it matters very much how you act once they're gone. That is our situation. let us quite moaning and start working hard with one another to improve.

The biggest risk IMHO, is that some of the most active and involved FlyerTalkers might deflect some of their energy to the other side. "the grass is always greener.." is certainly a factor.

Just as SkiAdcock suggested and idsant responded we should, be spending out effort trying to improve rather than anything else.

BTW, years ago I became CEO of a bank after the founder, my predecessor, left on very bad terms. That taught me a hard lesson; it matters not who leaves or why, but it matters very much how you act once they're gone. That is our situation. let us quite moaning and start working hard with one another to improve.

One of the best and most thoughtful posts I've read in a long time. ^

I too have been over to 'the other side' and chosen a nice new name for myself.

It's clearly attracted a lot of people who have left or been suspended from FT in the past. In addition they seem to have very different ideas re:governance.


Of course, it also attracted the TB President and from the looks of things quite a few moderators...

I appreciate the 3 TB members that chose to respond.

For the rest of the TB members that are ignoring this subject I have to say I'm not surprised at all. Very disappointing.

I appreciate the 3 TB members that chose to respond.

For the rest of the TB members that are ignoring this subject I have to say I'm not surprised at all. Very disappointing.


Actually, 4 TB members chose to respond:

nsx
SkiAdcock
Cholula
Markie

Actually, 4 TB members chose to respond:

nsx
SkiAdcock
Cholula
Markie

And now 5. I'm happy that you found my error.

But as I stated in the Omni forum on the same topic, I think the demise of FT & the second coming of you know who re: MP is overstated.

There is room for both BB (and others) in the world. It's not an either/or nor is it one will die & the other survive.

Having said that, there are pros/cons to each BB. I have no doubt both will do fine. Just as I have no doubt both have areas to be improved. Right now MP is basically FT Lite. Will it change in the future? Sure. Can FT use some changes? Sure.

Instead of the chicken little stuff, I'd rather folks put forward what they like, what they don't like, enhancements, etc, re: their thoughts on FT & what they'd like us to consider either keeping, changing or implementing.

Cheers.

"Demise" might be too strong of a word, and second-coming is incorrect.

However, I don't see much in the way of a vibe that says "FT is better, good luck to MP trying to come close"-type feeling from members in this forum or other forums.

Instead what is still in the forums are the reasons and an overall culture as to why there is a slow and steady migration to MilePoint.

My discussions with key people were done in a very conversational, diplomatic fashion. When you don't get responses from people, it's discouraging and the first sign there's something wrong. PMs with other members, including ones with bolded names, confirm to me what's going on.

I've read your posts over the years, and feel that you are a good contribution to TB. I voted for you. I wish you nothing but the best in your efforts in taking FT to the next level.


It is also important to learn what appears to work well at MP so we can continue to improve FlyerTalk.

The biggest risk IMHO, is that some of the most active and involved FlyerTalkers might deflect some of their energy to the other side. "the grass is always greener.." is certainly a factor.

Just as SkiAdcock suggested and idsant responded we should, be spending out effort trying to improve rather than anything else.

BTW, years ago I became CEO of a bank after the founder, my predecessor, left on very bad terms. That taught me a hard lesson; it matters not who leaves or why, but it matters very much how you act once they're gone. That is our situation. let us quite moaning and start working hard with one another to improve.

I agree that FT should improve, but you allude to it as reacting to MilePoint. Letting your competition dictate the tone and direction of YOUR site; that would be a losing strategy.

FT needs to be ahead of curve, bring in innovation and a fresh approach towards things. I don't see that right now. While it's easy to see something new as being different, as MilePoint is, they have a clear message on who they are and what they want to be.


And now 5. I'm happy that you found my error.

After reading Spiff's posts for many years, I think the context of his post went right above your head.

You might want to re-read it and think about the message (hint: focus on the number aspect), then you'll get what he is trying to say to you.

I agree that FT should improve, but you allude to it as reacting to MilePoint. Letting your competition dictate the tone and direction of YOUR site; that would be a losing strategy.

FT needs to be ahead of curve, bring in innovation and a fresh approach towards things. I don't see that right now. While it's easy to see something new as being different, as MilePoint is, they have a clear message on who they are and what they want to be.


I agree with you. I do not think FT should react to MP either, but certainly FT should be quite well aware of the energies of many valuable members being deflected there. Several of the posters on this thread seem to be there quite a lot. I am too, I kept my username so I am not anonymous.

There is much more than momentum in favor of FlyerTalk. Not least of the advantages is a growing multiculturalism and global awareness in FlyerTalk. there is also a mature and spicy debate on many issues that is less common than it should be.

The quite active, sometimes acrimonious debates about governance are also healthy, if we can find a way to channel them productively. We surely can do that, so long as we are oriented toward inclusion rather than exclusion, which can only happen if we maintain a tone of respect for one another even when we have major differences.

Right now Randy is offering me the chance at a free Ipad while IB is offering the a shot at a $50 Amex gift card.

Competition is GOOD! ^

But FT needs to up the schwag, imho!

;)

FT needs to be ahead of curve, bring in innovation and a fresh approach towards things. I don't see that right now. I tend to agree. The approval of the Heath and Fitness travel forum has restored at least a little bit of my faith that the 'culture of no' can be overcome at FT, and changes to the positive ARE possible...

Right now Randy is offering me the chance at a free Ipad while IB is offering the a shot at a $50 Amex gift card.

Is Randy limiting his offer to those over 21 and U.S. residents only, like Top Flyer from IB does? I haven't been over to MP today to check the fine print. I still don't understand the restrictions here on FT that block out a significant part of our community.

Is Randy limiting his offer to those over 21 and U.S. residents only, like Top Flyer from IB does? I haven't been over to MP today to check the fine print. I still don't understand the restrictions here on FT that block out a significant part of our community.

The question is probably better asked in MP re: any restrictions. ;) Re: the restrictions for TopFlyer, IB/Amex are conforming w/ some of the US sweeps/contest laws, hence the exclusion of int'l & 21+. Don't necessarily like that they did so, but then again I'm not a fan of TopFlyer anyway.

FWIW - those who do win the ipads on MP are legally required to declare them on their taxes, just as those who won the Openskies tickets & other contests that FT or Randy ran were required to do so. Whether or not they do or whether a 1099 is issued is a separate topic.

Getting back on topic:

For those who have suggestions on how to improve FT, I'd recommend they post here or in the Suggestions forum of FT. Those TB can affect we'll take into consideration/review. Those that are outside our purview we'll forward to IB & the Community Director.

Cheers.

For those who have suggestions on how to improve FT, I'd recommend they post here or in the Suggestions forum of FT. Those TB can affect we'll take into consideration/review. Those that are outside our purview we'll forward to IB & the Community Director.



Once again SkiAdcock makes a simple constructive suggestion.

Suggestion One: make a 'like' button such as on Brand X so I can post 'like' for the quoted post! (I am serious)

Once again SkiAdcock makes a simple constructive suggestion.

Suggestion One: make a 'like' button such as on Brand X so I can post 'like' for the quoted post! (I am serious)

^^^ Like. :)

Once again SkiAdcock makes a simple constructive suggestion.

Suggestion One: make a 'like' button such as on Brand X so I can post 'like' for the quoted post! (I am serious)

I think FT did have something like that at one point, or was that the reputation feature? I remember something like that from a few years back & remember it didn't end well, but not totally sure. I remember it got pretty bad when birthday threads in CommunityBuzz got dinged by people. How can someone dislike a happy birthday? :confused:

Can I ask you something seriously since I'm not a FB person & thus the like thing escapes me? What's the advantage to posting you 'like' a quoted post? Is it just to save yourself posting something along the lines of thanks for that/I appreciate the info provided - ie, you'd rather do a click than type? Is there some other advantage? Also, do you think it gets people to alter their posts in hopes of getting a 'like'?

I've not posted much in MP, but have some folk following me & 'liking' me. Shrug - while I guess that's nice, it doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm going to post in FT or MP (but less likely in MP because I don't have the time to go to 2 BBs on the same topic) what I think/feel/have info on, regardless if someone likes it or not. Having said that, perhaps there's an advantage to like that I'm not getting, hence my question being serious.

BTW - I have no idea if VBulletin software allows for the like thing, but am guessing it might if there was a reputation feature or like feature previously.

Cheers.

FWIW I floated some reputation-type ideas with the TalkBoard a couple years ago and I didn't get a single Like. I assumed they were right and it was a solution looking for a problem.

I'm pretty sure vbulletin can be set up to allow Like but not Dislike, but I'm not sure what value that adds by itself.

Can I ask you something seriously...
Cheers.

Here goes.:D

1) The biggest advantage, IMO, is that the +1 and similar can reduce, thus making the process a bit less cumbersome to the reader. Secondary advantages are that if there is some status or recognition advantage it can be a subtle influence to more civility. Anonymity is an advantage to BB but it also removes some of the social constraints that face to face encounters have. This can subtly influence that process.

2) vBulletin as advertised has the reputation management features that are often denigrated. It is written with MySQL as the base so altering the code to do this would not require a genius. The trick is the displays and visible counters, easy to do, but harder work to test for release. I do not oppose vBulletin, but as it stands it is well to understand that it is "mature", not a compliment in a fast-moving arena.

3) I don't really like the title of 'like' but some device that allows self generation of positives can act to reinforce the basic purpose of our connection here as members, to exchange information and perspective on issues we find relevant.

Slightly OT, perhaps, but describing what I think should be a limitation on such a feature:
4) I would not let such a device anywhere near ONMI. OMNI serves a valuable purpose of letting people rant about whatever they want to rant about. It should be kept clear from search engines, post counts, anything that implies approval or disapproval, including 'likes'. I would not even oppose having some more restrictive access rules to enforce that.

All the foregoing represent my own personal views. They have neither been approved nor discussed with anybody else.

I don't remember actually being asked, so I'd like to correct something here if that is OK and this is not meant to take your conversation off topic. The facts are that all the taxes for any giveaway I've ever done were paid by me. I prefer to to make things easy on those who are engaged in any community effort, whether here or elsewhere. The actual laws for gift taxes according to the IRS is "The donor is generally responsible for paying the gift tax." I've always preferred to handle these things under the gift tax method because it makes winning so much more pleasurable and easy. So, the facts are, winners of these iPads will have their taxes pre-paid by me. The single time where there was an exception was when i partnered with American Express for a promo on BoardingArea and since they actually were to supply the prize, i insisted and eventually got their agreement to cover the taxes for the winner (it was not easy for them to do the agreement since no one had ever insisted before) and as well, i made mention to the winner that i would personally be responsible for any shortcomings if the AmEx coverage left anything exposed to taxes. While I am sure that the idea of taxes is simply just a guess as to how things are generally done, I have and will continue to make life simple for my members. If this approach is not a comfortable one for the TalkBoard, then I'll leave off trying to add some interest, enrichment and reward for the members here. So sorry to interrupt but someone suggested I make a correction for the good of the situation. Thank you.

FWIW - those who do win the ipads on MP are legally required to declare them on their taxes, just as those who won the Openskies tickets & other contests that FT or Randy ran were required to do so. Whether or not they do or whether a 1099 is issued is a separate topic.

Thanks, Randy, for the clarification and your position. That helps the debate considerably. I would post a 'like' for that if I could.

Thanks for the clarification. And now we return to our regularly scheduled programming...

For those who have suggestions on how to improve FT, I'd recommend they post here or in the Suggestions forum of FT. Those TB can affect we'll take into consideration/review. Those that are outside our purview we'll forward to IB & the Community Director.

Cheers.

FWIW - those who do win the ipads on MP are legally required to declare them on their taxes, just as those who won the Openskies tickets & other contests that FT or Randy ran were required to do so. Whether or not they do or whether a 1099 is issued is a separate topic.


A very US-centric view (not unusual on either FT or MP) - at least one of the iPad winners so far is from the UK, where there is no requirement to declare them on tax returns as prizes are free from all taxes.

A very US-centric view (not unusual on either FT or MP) - at least one of the iPad winners so far is from the UK, where there is no requirement to declare them on tax returns as prizes are free from all taxes.

True, but I was responding to tom911's post re: the restrictions of the TopFlyer contest, and it led to the other. You're correct - some countries don't have tax requirements on winnings.

But the purpose of this thread is for suggestions for FT, not tax 101 on winning prizes ;) :)

Cheers.

If we have like, can we have a dislike/what a waste of time/that's rubbish option as well? I do feel it's missing on MP, as you see the most unadulterated drivel with no opportunity to express anything but approval for it!

If we have like, can we have a dislike/what a waste of time/that's rubbish option as well? I do feel it's missing on MP, as you see the most unadulterated drivel with no opportunity to express anything but approval for it!

Oh yes, we should. The 'rubbish' needs to have a rubbish bin icon and would be quite useful. I would have received some of those with justice and sent quite a few as well. Excellent!:-:

Some improvements I would like to see:

Rotate moderators - allow "new blood" in - some folks have 3/4 forums - have more people who want to be volunteers the opportunity

Stop with the merging of the threads - archive posts that are >3 years old and alllow searching if somebody wants to - keep things fresh but make it easy for people to find things.

There are certain people who are continuously snarky and offer no information yet due to pure post count they are seen as "evangelists". Get rid of the "extra" titles. Or get rid of the threads that count for post counting like counting from 1 to 1billion.

Bring back live chats with airline/hotel people. Those were interesting - but make them live/webinar rather than the slow chat that currently exists.


I LOVE ALL OF THESE IDEAS! ^^^^^^^^^^^

And as much as I like the like feature on milepoint, I don't see chasing thier trend to be the right move for FlyerTalk. FT can do what it does better without following other boards' actions.

In fact following mp would likely be a distraction to the well-needed self-assessment that FT needs to move forward.... in my opinion.

Some improvements I would like to see:

Rotate moderators - allow "new blood" in - some folks have 3/4 forums - have more people who want to be volunteers the opportunity

Stop with the merging of the threads - archive posts that are >3 years old and alllow searching if somebody wants to - keep things fresh but make it easy for people to find things.

There are certain people who are continuously snarky and offer no information yet due to pure post count they are seen as "evangelists". Get rid of the "extra" titles. Or get rid of the threads that count for post counting like counting from 1 to 1billion.

Bring back live chats with airline/hotel people. Those were interesting - but make them live/webinar rather than the slow chat that currently exists.
All very good points !^

I LOVE ALL OF THESE IDEAS! ^^^^^^^^^^^

And as much as I like the like feature on milepoint, I don't see chasing thier trend to be the right move for FlyerTalk. FT can do what it does better without following other boards' actions.

In fact following mp would likely be a distraction to the well-needed self-assessment that FT needs to move forward.... in my opinion.

Yep, moving forward would be a great thing to do.......^

Here goes.:D

1) The biggest advantage, IMO, is that the +1 and similar can reduce, thus making the process a bit less cumbersome to the reader. Secondary advantages are that if there is some status or recognition advantage it can be a subtle influence to more civility. Anonymity is an advantage to BB but it also removes some of the social constraints that face to face encounters have. This can subtly influence that process.

2) vBulletin as advertised has the reputation management features that are often denigrated. It is written with MySQL as the base so altering the code to do this would not require a genius. The trick is the displays and visible counters, easy to do, but harder work to test for release. I do not oppose vBulletin, but as it stands it is well to understand that it is "mature", not a compliment in a fast-moving arena.

3) I don't really like the title of 'like' but some device that allows self generation of positives can act to reinforce the basic purpose of our connection here as members, to exchange information and perspective on issues we find relevant.

Slightly OT, perhaps, but describing what I think should be a limitation on such a feature:
4) I would not let such a device anywhere near ONMI. OMNI serves a valuable purpose of letting people rant about whatever they want to rant about. It should be kept clear from search engines, post counts, anything that implies approval or disapproval, including 'likes'. I would not even oppose having some more restrictive access rules to enforce that.

All the foregoing represent my own personal views. They have neither been approved nor discussed with anybody else.

Good points. I've seen other sites successfully use this feature with a term like "kudos" or "thanks." I agree that having a "dislike" or "vote down" feature is not a good idea; I wasn't an active participant on FT when it was implemented, but I've heard the horror stories and can definitely see how damage would occur. (That said, FT seemed to be a much smaller place back then, so a small number of trolls could more easily exert negative influence--just a thought/observation.)

I don't remember actually being asked, so I'd like to correct something here if that is OK and this is not meant to take your conversation off topic. The facts are that all the taxes for any giveaway I've ever done were paid by me. I prefer to to make things easy on those who are engaged in any community effort, whether here or elsewhere. The actual laws for gift taxes according to the IRS is "The donor is generally responsible for paying the gift tax." I've always preferred to handle these things under the gift tax method because it makes winning so much more pleasurable and easy. So, the facts are, winners of these iPads will have their taxes pre-paid by me. The single time where there was an exception was when i partnered with American Express for a promo on BoardingArea and since they actually were to supply the prize, i insisted and eventually got their agreement to cover the taxes for the winner (it was not easy for them to do the agreement since no one had ever insisted before) and as well, i made mention to the winner that i would personally be responsible for any shortcomings if the AmEx coverage left anything exposed to taxes. While I am sure that the idea of taxes is simply just a guess as to how things are generally done, I have and will continue to make life simple for my members. If this approach is not a comfortable one for the TalkBoard, then I'll leave off trying to add some interest, enrichment and reward for the members here. So sorry to interrupt but someone suggested I make a correction for the good of the situation. Thank you.

^^ What a class act this man is.

As for my thoughts: Am I worried? No. Competition is a good thing; it edges us out of our comfort zones and forces us to take a look at consumer preferences. Jumping in with both feet and following MP with a new software package and the ability to "like" is not the answer. What is by far the better course is analyzing FTers' activity levels here, comments from our members, and careful analysis of features of both communities and ensuring we're meeting our members' wants and needs.

I wonder if the TalkBoard can request forum and membership statistics on a regular basis (quarterly? monthly?) from IB/Carol for the purpose of analyzing our activity levels and the growth of FT. And as always, constructive posts or PMs from members here on FT with ideas for improvement are welcome. My PM box is always open, and I try to hit TalkBoard Topics regularly; if I'm short on time, I don't always respond, but I do read everything posted here.

I wonder if the TalkBoard can request forum and membership statistics on a regular basis (quarterly? monthly?) from IB/Carol for the purpose of analyzing our activity levels and the growth of FT.

Depending on the depth of information you want, I'd be worried that it might include a non-disclosure statement, and as you are volunteers not sure I'd want you crossing that road. For instance, the disclosure of "active" members versus "inactive" members might be something that they might not want shared (if I owned the place I wouldn't share it with you).

Depending on the depth of information you want, I'd be worried that it might include a non-disclosure statement, and as you are volunteers not sure I'd want you crossing that road. For instance, the disclosure of "active" members versus "inactive" members might be something that they might not want shared (if I owned the place I wouldn't share it with you).

It's been shared in coarse-grained numbers before; long before I was ever a moderator or TalkBoard member, I heard that FT had approximately 250,000 members, 25,000 of whom were active. 10% seems to be a pretty average figure in the IBB community.

Now, those numbers are years (3+) out of date and may not have even been accurate to start with--not knowing, I can't comment on their validity. :)

It's been shared in coarse-grained numbers before; long before I was ever a moderator or TalkBoard member, I heard that FT had approximately 250,000 members, 25,000 of whom were active. 10% seems to be a pretty average figure in the IBB community.

Now, those numbers are years (3+) out of date and may not have even been accurate to start with--not knowing, I can't comment on their validity. :)

One thing to keep in mind though, is now IBB finds itself in a competitive environment. So they may be even less willing to share data that would make its way to the competition.

IIRC, prior management was never very forthcoming with data other than in very broad strokes usually presented in coy ways.

FWIW - I don't see the need for TB members to get quant analysis monthly, even if IB wanted to share it.

On a dif note - when did MP become the only competitor to FT? FT has had to deal w/ competitive sites for a long time. From what I can tell, most sites don't share their data or do in a way that bolsters their own importance re: of the site ;)

Cheers.

It's been shared in coarse-grained numbers before; long before I was ever a moderator or TalkBoard member, I heard that FT had approximately 250,000 members, 25,000 of whom were active. 10% seems to be a pretty average figure in the IBB community.



Interesting stats. As FT has been going for 12 or 13 years I guess a lot of folks join to ask a question about an upgrade etc, of "what hotel to book in Cancun", get the answer, and never come back.

Milepoint.com has over 30,000+ members in a mere month or so, and a much higher % of them will be active I'd guess.

A very solid start - incredibly so, and hat's off to Randy.

I hate all the "likes" stuff - it all smacks of junior high school to me, but clearly many others enjoy it.

IB need to keep their eye firmly on the ball, or FT will become a Kodak pretty fast.

I'd forgotten until today MilePoint was a decent size program a decade or so back -

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/milesbuzz/7589-what-happened-milepoint.html
.

I'm less convinced that MP is a credible threat at the moment to FT. Too many of the airline forums have tumbleweed blowing through them, particularly the non-US airlines (there are exceptions, but not too many).

Tens of thousands of members mean nothing if no-one is actually discussing travelling and they are all chasing iPads or liking each other.

That might change, I don't think it's a cause for complacency on the part of FT. Every board starts someplace, and assuming that because MP has got off to a slower start then predicted, it won't grow strong would be foolish.

I'm less convinced that MP is a credible threat at the moment to FT. Too many of the airline forums have tumbleweed blowing through them, particularly the non-US airlines (there are exceptions, but not too many).

Tens of thousands of members mean nothing if no-one is actually discussing travelling and they are all chasing iPads or liking each other.

That might change, I don't think it's a cause for complacency on the part of FT. Every board starts someplace, and assuming that because MP has got off to a slower start then predicted, it won't grow strong would be foolish.

I just checked and, yeah, based on the content MP is not exactly FT's bogeyman today. The platform is different....some say it's better, some say it ain't.

But I still think there are things to be learned from it. It was started, after all, to be a 'friendlier' version of FT. To me, that's constructive criticism. A chance for all FTers, whether they are posters, mods, TB members or ambassadors to look at ourselves and say, jeez, are we really that unfriendly? And if so, do something about it.

There are some excellent suggestions in this thread to broaden participation in the volunteer positions.

I've made a few additional (not safe for TB Topics) suggestions directly to the Community Director and I encourage others to do the same.

IB has given FlyerTalkers a wonderful gift: the freedom to make FT anything we posters want it to be with minimum intervention or profit-motivated decision making. Let's not squander that! ^

I'm less convinced that MP is a credible threat at the moment to FT. Too many of the airline forums have tumbleweed blowing through them, particularly the non-US airlines (there are exceptions, but not too many).

Tens of thousands of members mean nothing if no-one is actually discussing travelling and they are all chasing iPads or liking each other.

That might change, I don't think it's a cause for complacency on the part of FT. Every board starts someplace, and assuming that because MP has got off to a slower start then predicted, it won't grow strong would be foolish.

Emphasis mine. 1) I'm not sure why any other BB would pose a "threat" to FT. FT stands in its own right as MP and others do. Why characterize it as such?

2) Actually we do discuss travel, post news, help newbies, etc. and it is frankly insulting for you to say that we are all chasing iPads and such.

The iPad phenomenon is over now so we will continue a steady growth and enjoy in taking part of building yet another great travel community.

^I just checked and, yeah, based on the content MP is not exactly FT's bogeyman today. The platform is different....some say it's better, some say it ain't.

But I still think there are things to be learned from it. It was started, after all, to be a 'friendlier' version of FT. To me, that's constructive criticism. A chance for all FTers, whether they are posters, mods, TB members or ambassadors to look at ourselves and say, jeez, are we really that unfriendly? And if so, do something about it.

There are some excellent suggestions in this thread to broaden participation in the volunteer positions.

I've made a few additional (not safe for TB Topics) suggestions directly to the Community Director and I encourage others to do the same.

IB has given FlyerTalkers a wonderful gift: the freedom to make FT anything we posters want it to be with minimum intervention or profit-motivated decision making. Let's not squander that!

+1 ^ Nice post!

I'm less convinced that MP is a credible threat at the moment to FT.

The Delta Forum Lounge Thread, with over 70,000 posts and a million views, is one of the largest threads (the largest?) on FlyerTalk. It has been on the first page of of the forum almost continuously since it began.

Recently, it started slipping down to the second and the third page and would have gone even lower except that two posters kept "bumping" it to bring it back to page 1. They asked why this suddenly became necessary and got the below response from Canarsie.

(It should be noted that not only is Canarsie both a Delta Forum moderator and a Senior Moderator, but also the OP of the thread --which, IMHO, establishes his expertise on this subject.)

The reason why you keep “bumping” this thread is because many of the former regular participants of The Lounge™ prefer to post here (http://milepoint.com/forums/threads/delta-forum-lounge-thread.461/) instead of here in The Lounge™.

While this thread still has its moments, The Lounge™ is slowly winding down and may one day — if not already — become obsolete. Change happens.

You will probably be “bumping” it far more often in the future, but it will most likely be a waste of your time.

When Canarsie is telling FT lounge posters that most other regular participants have chosen to spend their time at MP's equivalent lounge, I think it is, indeed, an indication that MP is presenting if not a credible "threat" then at least a very credible alternative.

Yes... that those who prefer to post in a lounge thread should want to spend time on a board where it's all very social... not that big of a shock. That's MP's problem - it will not live as an airline board for FFPs by socialising alone.

How many of them still return to FT to catch up on the airline news?

As I posted in the Delta lounge thread (which I didn't really pay attention to until Dovster's post):

"Wow - just wow. Gotta admire (or not) a mod of a forum directing folk to another site & declaring the demise in the current site of a thread.

But then again the thread is about not much, so maybe that part doesn't matter. Shrug."

So while I don't agree w/ canarsie's actions, let me say this. Due to his post I went over to MP &, on the forums (oh yeah miles & points, not lounge threads) that I frequent, I have to say not many threads/content there. So honest to goodness, if someone wants to post on the lounge thread on MP, good on 'em/go for it. I'm still going to find my content here, which is why I'm here.

As a regular FT member I look for content that will help me re: my programs, etc, and then I post in some other threads.

As a TB member I always look for input that will help to make FT a better site. The fact that some folk are shifting over due to a lounge thread doesn't make me think something needs to be changed. I might agree on other matters btw re: change, but a lounge thread isn't going to do it.

Cheers.

As a regular FT member I look for content that will help me re: my programs, etc, and then I post in some other threads.

Exactly. ^

...but a lounge thread isn't going to do it.

And once again: exactly.

As I posted in the Delta lounge thread (which I didn't really pay attention to until Dovster's post):

"Wow - just wow. Gotta admire (or not) a mod of a forum directing folk to another site & declaring the demise in the current site of a thread.

And, as I posted in response to Sharon, you really do have to admire him. It reminds me of Miracle on 34th Street.

^

+1 ^ Nice post!

Thanks.

I believe that 2011 has been the best year of FT ever. And I've been here since the start.

IMHO, 2009 and 2010 were marred by some profit-taking shenanigans...kind of like airline program 'enhancements' that we all know are totally bottom-line driven. But now that's over and FT decisions and management seems to be more transparent, dynamic and user-responsive than ever before.

I like my IBBs user-driven and managed, not owner-driven and managed. It's a wonderful legacy that Randy created for FT but that IB has taken to new levels. Hopefully we'll all keep pitching in and continue to make FT what we want and need it to be.

Power to the posters! :)

And, as I posted in response to Sharon, you really do have to admire him. It reminds me of Miracle on 34th Street.

When I see MP's numbers so crazy-inflated with the March Ipad give-away, my response is to say congratulations to Randy and Pizzaman and Tommy 777 and others who thought up this great marketing tool to bring folks to MP. It worked!

When I see MP's numbers so crazy-inflated with the March Ipad give-away, my response is to say congratulations to Randy and Pizzaman and Tommy 777 and others who thought up this great marketing tool to bring folks to MP. It worked!

Inflated numbers seem to be the rule, with or without Ipads.

As of this moment, FT's main page says we have 331,550 members. How many of them, however, are really active?

We can get a hint by looking at some other figures. FT, right now, has 15,991,440 posts.

Here are the posts from the last 10 members who posted in this thread:

Obscure2K: 17,718
Kokonutz: 13,331
Dovster: 28,491
cblaisd: 22,844
SkiAdcock: 24,195
Jenbel: 24,041
Idsant: 7951
gedluca: 386
OzStamps: 31,847
Jackal: 9527

That is a total of 156,136 posts. The average is 15613.6 posts each.

If they are typical, than the 15,991,440 posts in all of FT's history were made by 1024 posters. This is just .03% of the theoretical 331,550 members on FT.

I would not be at all surprised to learn that the figures on MP are equally as far out of whack.

In FT's case, it is the result of it being here for many years, having a lot of people show up, make a handful of posts and then disappear.

In MP's case, it is the result of the iPads and FTers (including you, O2K) who I presume signed up with no intention of posting but rather to protect their user names.

In real life, however, it is the .03% of members who are actually providing content who will decide if one of the two boards will flourish while the other dies or, as I suspect, that both will do well.

My guess is MP, FT & the myriad of other travel bulletin boards that currently exist will do fine. Even with a horrid exchange rate, horrid TSA, etc, people will still travel & still look for travel info. While some would like to make it so, this really isn't a competition & us good/them bad & vice versa re: of BB.

Cheers.

While some would like to make it so, this really isn't a competition & us good/them bad & vice versa re: of BB.



I don't even see any "us" or "them".

I am not Randy nor am I IBB. I don't own even a tiny fraction of either bulletin board.

I am a member of both. To me, that means I now have a bigger choice. That can only make things better for me -- and the same is true for everyone else.

Even you, as a TalkBoard member, do not have a bigger stake in FT than any other poster. After all, you were not appointed by IBB to your position -- you were elected by the members. Anything which is good for the membership (and that includes an additional choice) should be something you favor -- even if it means that IBB may lose out on some advertising dollars.

I think this is reflected in the fact that out of 9 TB members, 7 have posted under the same user name on MilePoint, one has said he is using a different user name there, and the remaining one may be posting there but, if he is, it would be under a different user name.

In fact, even among the moderators (who are appointed, not elected) quite a few post on MilePoint. I don't have the figures (mainly because I am too lazy to do 80+ searches) but I would not be in the least surprised if more than half of FT's mods are also MP posters.

This would not be true if FT/MP were an us/them situation. It is more like a Coke/Pepsi one. Sometimes I am in the mood for one, other times I am in the mood for the other. By having the choice available, I am certainly better off than if only one brand was on the shelves.

Shrug - I'm the one that said this isn't a competition, regardless of how some would like to make it so.

I've registered on MP to keep my handle, but rarely post there. In fact if it wasn't for checking out something recently I haven't been on in a month. I have limited time. FT meets my needs & provides the most content, so FT is my main hang-out. That's also augmented by my being a TB member so my first responsibility is to FT.

Members of FT, MP, Tripadvisor, fill in the blank, can go to whatever BB meets their needs. Re: of what some folk would like to think, the i-net world is not just FT & MP. I know, novel thought.

Cheers.

That's also augmented by my being a TB member so my first responsibility is to FT.


Sharon, that is a viewpoint which I have long disagreed with, no matter who had it.

As a TB member your first responsibility is to the membership, not to FT.

Firstly, it is impossible to have a responsibility to FT, or MP. Like Coca-Cola, they are products. You would not talk about your responsibility to a bottle of Coke. It is, of course, possible to feel a responsibility to IBB, to Randy, or to SanDiego1K.

Your first responsibility, however, is to the people who elected you to TB and that is the membership as a whole.

Sharon, that is a viewpoint which I have long disagreed with, no matter who had it.

As a TB member your first responsibility is to the membership, not to FT.

Firstly, it is impossible to have a responsibility to FT, or MP. Like Coca-Cola, they are products. You would not talk about your responsibility to a bottle of Coke. It is, of course, possible to feel a responsibility to IBB, to Randy, or to SanDiego1K.

Your first responsibility, however, is to the people who elected you to TB and that is the membership as a whole.But the posters ARE the coke. Or at least we are the ones who put the coke or pepsi in the bottle. IB or Randy/Tommy/Ed are just the bottle. WE and our posts are the soda pop.

It's interesting to me that when Sharon talks about FT she is talking about the posters. When you talk about FT you are talking about IB or the owners.

I share Sharon's view, not yours. Particularly with regard to FT, since IB has decided to allow 100% poster management of FT.

And I don't necessarily agree with you that MP is totally good for members of FT. There are some things about it that are good for FTers (such as taking its creation as constructive criticism). There are some things that are bad (such as diluting the data points across two IBBs...although frankly as it is shaping up I don't see many data points on MP not cross-posted to FT...yet).

It's interesting to me that when Sharon talks about FT she is talking about the posters. When you talk about FT you are talking about IB or the owners.



That is far from true. When I talk about FT (or MP) I am talking about products -- websites founded and funded by others but whose content is provided by the members.

Particularly with regard to FT, since IB has decided to allow 100% poster management of FT.

Is this true? Can TalkBoard, which is the only group chosen by the membership now enact any changes it wants, even if IBB or SanDiego1K oppose them?

Can TalkBoard, for example, decide tomorrow that all moderators must be approved by TB and serve at its pleasure, subject to dismissal if TB so desires?

Does TalkBoard have the right to require all forums to allow complete discussion of moderation, including specific moderation actions?

Is this true? Can TalkBoard, which is the only group chosen by the membership now enact any changes it wants, even if IBB or SanDiego1K oppose them?

Can TalkBoard, for example, decide tomorrow that all moderators must be approved by TB and serve at its pleasure, subject to dismissal if TB so desires?

Does TalkBoard have the right to require all forums to allow complete discussion of moderation, including specific moderation actions?
Elected TBers make suggestions to the CD for structural issues including the TOS.

Volunteer moderators select other moderators or they can be appointed by the CD.

It's not a perfect system, but it IS one that emphasizes poster preference over centralized decision making and taking.

For example, OMNI post count eligibility was taken away by fiat for business-related purposes. It was restored by the will of the posters once management became more user-responsive rather than business-responsive.

Best of all, rules for all of this have been established so there is no capricious decision making. No one is left wondering why a decision was taken, and whether the motivation was improving the poster experience or improving profit.

Maybe you aren't aware of it, because I wasn't aware of it either until it was explained to me: IB is taking a TOTALLY hands-off approach to FT. The TB has more influence than it has ever had before, particularly since the CD has a responsibility ONLY to the posters, not to the posters plus the bottom line.

It's a very exciting time on FT! ^

Your first responsibility, however, is to the people who elected you to TB and that is the membership as a whole.

Where on earth did you get the impression that I thought otherwise?

It's interesting to me that when Sharon talks about FT she is talking about the posters.

I am. I've said in multiple threads in multiple forums that FTers are what make FT. As a regular member, my preference is for FT since that's where I find my content & already have a sense of community. As a TB member, my responsibility is to FT - aka, our members.

I think dovster's getting into a semantics tomato/tomatoe thing, at least w/ regards to me.

Cheers.

Elected TBers make suggestions to the CD for structural issues including the TOS.

Volunteer moderators select other moderators or they can be appointed by the CD.

What you have said is tremendously different from what Kokonutz posted:

IB has decided to allow 100% poster management of FT.

The fact is that anybody can make suggestions to the CD about anything at all, including the TOS. That person does not even have to be an FTer. I can not believe that if someone, including her next door neighbor, made a suggestion which Carol considered to be a good one that she would reject it simply because it did not come from TB.

On the other hand, if TB makes a suggestion which Carol thinks will be harmful to FT she is very apt to reject it.

As far as "volunteer moderators select other moderators or they can be appointed by the CD" is concerned, that is the way it has always been. There is no change in that. Nor does it give the selection of moderators any "poster management".

There are 80+ moderators, none of whom were elected to their posts by the membership. They are the ones who truly determine (together with Carol) how FT is run. Even if TB makes a TOS decision, the moderators are free to ignore it.

If you question that, take a look at this provision of the TOS:

Attacks against groups or classes of job holders (such as Transportation Security Administration employees) will not be tolerated.

Then take a look at the TS&S Forum and see how many such attacks there are (one of the latest being particularly obscene).

This is the way it is and this is the way it has always been. TB chiefly recommends the establishment of new forums (which the CD is free to reject) and makes rules to govern itself. Beyond that, it is powerless -- despite Koko's wishful thinking.

I think dovster's getting into a semantics tomato/tomatoe thing



Agree.

I think dovster's getting into a semantics tomato/tomatoe thing, at least w/ regards to me.

Cheers.

Agree.

It is far more than a matter of semantics.

There are various people/groups involved in both FT and MP.

On MP you have:

1. Randy
2. Members

On FT you have:

1. IBB
2. SanDiego1k
3. Moderators
4. TalkBoard
5. Members

Often, the interests of any of these two people/groups will coincide. Sometimes they will not.

There really is no such thing as being loyal to FT or MP. Both are products. The question is which of the above truly have your loyalty.

We saw an example of this a while back when TB approved three forums (Turkish Airways, Qatar Airways, and Virgin America). Two of these three had not even been discussed in TalkBoard Topics. Virgin America had been proposed by some members but rejected by TalkBoard. Suddenly, all three were passed. Most interestingly, the motions were all made by Gleff, who not only had never made a motion for any new forum but was predisposed, as the record shows, to vote to reject them.

The difference here? Randy had asked for the forums and TB rushed to give him what he wanted. Clearly, a number of TB members felt that their loyalty was to Randy, not to the members.

I publicly objected to it at the time and I still object to that kind of thinking. A TB member's loyalty should be to the members -- the people who voted for him.

Conflicts between any of these groups can arise. Let's say that IBB does a market study and determines that 50% of active FTers will agree to pay $25 a year for the right to continue to post on the forum. It could well decide that it is in IBB's best interest to demand that $25. It, obviously, would not be in the members' best interests.

One of the attractions that MP held (and for that matter still holds) is the fact that people tend to go where their friends are. Some of the most popular people on FT are moderators. If a well-liked moderator is posting on MP (especially in the "conversations" which can have up to 10 members, and are hidden from anyone else's view), that is a big draw to MP. It is especially so as some of the mods have discussed other mods there and not in very flattering terms.

Would it be in the moderators' interests not to allow a mod to post on MP? Very possibly as it certainly would protect a lot of their secrets. Would it be in IBB's interest to make this prohibition? I think yes -- simply because it would remove a lure to a competitive site. Would it be in the members' interest? Most definitely not.

So, please, do not think that the question of loyalty is simply "semantics". It is not. Loyalty is to a person, a group of people, or even a corporation -- but not to a product.

On FT you have:

1. IBB
2. SanDiego1k
3. Moderators
4. TalkBoard
5. Members

Often, the interests of any of these two people/groups will coincide. Sometimes they will not.

Baloney. What's good for the members is good for everyone in the long run. I have never seen an example to the contrary.

Baloney. What's good for the members is good for everyone in the long run. I have never seen an example to the contrary.

I think it would be very good for the members to be able to choose their own moderators. Do you think that would be good for the current group of moderators?

I think it would be good for the members to have all advertisements taken off FT and at no charge. Do you think that would be good for IBB?

I think it would be very good for the members to be able to choose their own moderators. Do you think that would be good for the current group of moderators?

In forums I have moderated, I believe the members would strongly support the five current moderators. So my answer is yes. Call me Pollyanna if you like.

I think it would be good for the members to have all advertisements taken off FT and at no charge. Do you think that would be good for IBB?

That would not be good for all members because it would lead to the shutdown of FT. I said "in the long run" to exclude silly ideas of this sort.

It is far more than a matter of semantics.

There are various people/groups involved in both FT and MP.

On MP you have:

1. Randy
2. Members

On FT you have:

1. IBB
2. SanDiego1k
3. Moderators
4. TalkBoard
5. Members

Often, the interests of any of these two people/groups will coincide. Sometimes they will not.

There really is no such thing as being loyal to FT or MP. Both are products. The question is which of the above truly have your loyalty.

We saw an example of this a while back when TB approved three forums (Turkish Airways, Qatar Airways, and Virgin America). Two of these three had not even been discussed in TalkBoard Topics. Virgin America had been proposed by some members but rejected by TalkBoard. Suddenly, all three were passed. Most interestingly, the motions were all made by Gleff, who not only had never made a motion for any new forum but was predisposed, as the record shows, to vote to reject them.

The difference here? Randy had asked for the forums and TB rushed to give him what he wanted. Clearly, a number of TB members felt that their loyalty was to Randy, not to the members.

I publicly objected to it at the time and I still object to that kind of thinking. A TB member's loyalty should be to the members -- the people who voted for him.

Conflicts between any of these groups can arise. Let's say that IBB does a market study and determines that 50% of active FTers will agree to pay $25 a year for the right to continue to post on the forum. It could well decide that it is in IBB's best interest to demand that $25. It, obviously, would not be in the members' best interests.

One of the attractions that MP held (and for that matter still holds) is the fact that people tend to go where their friends are. Some of the most popular people on FT are moderators. If a well-liked moderator is posting on MP (especially in the "conversations" which can have up to 10 members, and are hidden from anyone else's view), that is a big draw to MP. It is especially so as some of the mods have discussed other mods there and not in very flattering terms.

Would it be in the moderators' interests not to allow a mod to post on MP? Very possibly as it certainly would protect a lot of their secrets. Would it be in IBB's interest to make this prohibition? I think yes -- simply because it would remove a lure to a competitive site. Would it be in the members' interest? Most definitely not.

So, please, do not think that the question of loyalty is simply "semantics". It is not. Loyalty is to a person, a group of people, or even a corporation -- but not to a product.

IMHO, Randy is the one who was conflicted. He wanted to make money or further his business interests and he also wanted to give the posters a voice. Usually the two priorities coincided and so he tended toward the latter priority, but sometimes he let the former priority drive decisions. I also agree that there were always many Randy sycophants on the TB and I too rolled my eyes at the example you describe, and I was on the TB when it went down so I rolled my eyes first-hand.

But that was then and this is now. Randy is gone. So are many of the sycophants.

Today we have a CD who is of and for the posters rather than an entrepreneur looking to monetize FT. And we have ownership that is 100% hands off. That makes FT unique and wonderful to my eyes. BETTER than it was 5 months ago. ^

Meanwhile I don't even know who owns MP nor what priorities are driving decisions. Members and clicks at any costs, is what the priority looks to be to me. But as many are quick to point out, I don't know much about MP. :)

Now, is FT perfect imho? Heck no! But now more than ever at least it is responsive and open to constructive criticism without being smacked down in a rambling, indirect fashion.

I also agree that there were always many Randy sycophants on the TB

Please do not attribute the term "sycophants" to me. I did not use it and I would not have used it to describe any TB member.

What I did say (and still feel) is that TB at the time felt that its first loyalty was to Randy, while I believe that its first loyalty should have been to the members.

What would happen today if IBB wanted, for business purposes, to create forums for Arkia Airlines and Airberlin? I really can't tell you the answer, but I can give you some possibilities:

1. It would, on its own, establish them.

2. It would ask SanDiego1K to establish them.

3. It would ask SanDiego1K to present it to TalkBoard, with her recommendation.

4. TalkBoard would approve the forums.

5. TalkBoard would reject the forums but they would be established anyhow.

6. TalkBoard would reject the forums and they would not be established.

My guess is that if it meant enough money to IBB the forums would be established even if the question went to TB and was rejected there.

That, at least, would be preferable to the earlier situation in that it would mean that TB did not feel its first loyalty is to SanDiego1K or IBB but rather to the membership.

On the other hand, the fact that any of those 6 possibilities could happen proves that FT is not, as you said, under "100% poster management".

Also, as you posted:

Elected TBers make suggestions to the CD for structural issues including the TOS.

Volunteer moderators select other moderators or they can be appointed by the CD.

"Suggestions" by the only group which represents the members is not "100% poster management" and moderators, who are not elected, selecting other moderators is the exact opposite of "100% poster management".

So while I don't agree w/ canarsie's actionsWhat actions?!?

What I posted...The reason why you keep “bumping” this thread is because many of the former regular participants of The Lounge™ prefer to post here (http://milepoint.com/forums/threads/delta-forum-lounge-thread.461/) instead of here in The Lounge™.

While this thread still has its moments, The Lounge™ is slowly winding down and may one day — if not already — become obsolete. Change happens.

You will probably be “bumping” it far more often in the future, but it will most likely be a waste of your time....was objective, factual and cannot be disputed, with the exception that the thread may become obsolete and that “bumping” the thread in question may be a waste of time — nothing more.

Please do not attribute the term "sycophants" to me. I did not use it and I would not have used it to describe any TB member.

What I did say (and still feel) is that TB at the time felt that its first loyalty was to Randy, while I believe that its first loyalty should have been to the members.

What would happen today if IBB wanted, for business purposes, to create forums for Arkia Airlines and Airberlin? I really can't tell you the answer, but I can give you some possibilities:

1. It would, on its own, establish them.

2. It would ask SanDiego1K to establish them.

3. It would ask SanDiego1K to present it to TalkBoard, with her recommendation.

4. TalkBoard would approve the forums.

5. TalkBoard would reject the forums but they would be established anyhow.

6. TalkBoard would reject the forums and they would not be established.

My guess is that if it meant enough money to IBB the forums would be established even if the question went to TB and was rejected there.

That, at least, would be preferable to the earlier situation in that it would mean that TB did not feel its first loyalty is to SanDiego1K or IBB but rather to the membership.

On the other hand, the fact that any of those 6 possibilities could happen proves that FT is not, as you said, under "100% poster management".

Also, as you posted:



"Suggestions" by the only group which represents the members is not "100% poster management" and moderators, who are not elected, selecting other moderators is the exact opposite of "100% poster management".

Again, that sort of thing/decision tree did happen and was relevant under past and transitional ownership. To my knowledge it has never even been contemplated by current ownership.

It seems to me like you are confusing past and transition ownership with current ownership.

That being the case, I think it makes good sense to look forward rather than back.

IB has handed FT over to the posters to make what we will of it.

I like that. I think we should take full advantage of that opportunity.

I'm excited for the future of FT.

What do YOU think the future of FT should look like!?

What do YOU think the future of FT should look like!?

My preference would be that the member-elected TalkBoard would have complete and final authority concerning all aspects of posting, including what is permissible and who would serve as moderators.

It would also be the final "court of appeals" for any disciplinary action and have the authority to remove any moderator who it feels is not doing a good job.

Remember, you asked what I think "should" be, not what I think "will" be. I do not believe any of this will happen.

What I posted......was objective, factual and cannot be disputed, with the exception that the thread may become obsolete and that “bumping” the thread in question may be a waste of time — nothing more.

Actually, "bumping" the thread was always a waste of time. If someone has something he wants to say, that is fine but just posting "bump" to bring it back to the first page contributed nothing.

My preference would be that the member-elected TalkBoard would have complete and final authority concerning all aspects of posting, including what is permissible and who would serve as moderators.

It would also be the final "court of appeals" for any disciplinary action and have the authority to remove any moderator who it feels is not doing a good job.

Remember, you asked what I think "should" be, not what I think "will" be. I do not believe any of this will happen.

I think those are extraordinarily meritorious ideas!

Personally, I shared quite a long list of ideas and suggestions that are not safe for TB Topics directly with the CD recently.

I have posted a bunch more ideas here for the TB to consider.

I suggest you do the same. In the past such suggestions rarely received a response and often if they did it was in the form of a rebuke. You might be surprised at just how responsive current management is, particularly relative to past management! ^

Actually, "bumping" the thread was always a waste of time. If someone has something he wants to say, that is fine but just posting "bump" to bring it back to the first page contributed nothing.

Lol, Lounge threads are by definition a waste of time...so bumping a Lounge thread is a DOUBLE waste of time! ;)

IMHO, the worst thing about the UA/CO merger is that the Penalty Box now lives in the UA forum.

It would also be the final "court of appeals" for any disciplinary action and have the authority to remove any moderator who it feels is not doing a good job.

That would not be an enjoyable duty. I would prefer to leave that to someone who is paid to do it. Then if we don't like the results we can complain to the employer (IB). Besides this, these decisions are harder to make by committee than by one person. Even one person will often vacillate, but at least that person is accountable.

Lol, Lounge threads are by definition a waste of time...

This isn't a Lounge thread? :p

We saw an example of this a while back when TB approved three forums (Turkish Airways, Qatar Airways, and Virgin America). Two of these three had not even been discussed in TalkBoard Topics. Virgin America had been proposed by some members but rejected by TalkBoard. Suddenly, all three were passed.

(snip)


The difference here? Randy had asked for the forums and TB rushed to give him what he wanted. Clearly, a number of TB members felt that their loyalty was to Randy, not to the members.

IMHO, Randy is the one who was conflicted. He wanted to make money or further his business interests and he also wanted to give the posters a voice. Usually the two priorities coincided and so he tended toward the latter priority, but sometimes he let the former priority drive decisions. I also agree that there were always many Randy sycophants on the TB and I too rolled my eyes at the example you describe, and I was on the TB when it went down so I rolled my eyes first-hand.

Incidentally, I just took a look at those three votes. Apparently, while you were rolling your eyes, you also voted in favor in each case.

Incidentally, I just took a look at those three votes. Apparently, while you were rolling your eyes, you also voted in favor in each case.

Definitely. The difference is that I had long been an advocate for a Virgin America forum. I think I even motioned or seconded it once but it got voted down...by the same TB members who were only too happy to make the motion and vote for that and similar forums after Randy made a deal with the airlines to create them.

In fact, I can't think of too many forums that were suggested that I wasn't willing to give a chance. I am sort of the anti-Spiff in that regard! ;) :D

My preference would be that the member-elected TalkBoard would have complete and final authority concerning all aspects of posting, including what is permissible and who would serve as moderators.

It would also be the final "court of appeals" for any disciplinary action and have the authority to remove any moderator who it feels is not doing a good job.

Remember, you asked what I think "should" be, not what I think "will" be. I do not believe any of this will happen.
TB is not objective enough to do this. Twice we've had situations when someone on TB has grossly failed in their duties, and their friends on TB have refused to act properly and remove them from TB, to enable the members to receive proper representation. Apparently to some TB members, friendship overrides their requirement to act in the best interests of FT.

As such, I don't think TB has the required objectivity to act as a court of appeal. But I suppose you can always ignore reality to dream can't you? Sadly, TB has proved to be all too fallible and parochial in dealing with misdemeanours of its own members to be given this rather important responsibility across the entire forum.

I don't think I want the winners of a popularity contest ruling deciding who should and shouldn't be banned from FT... Mods receive training in the TOS. Given the number of TB members who have received suspensions, it appears that the understanding of the TOS by TB members can be very poor.

TB is not objective enough to do this.

There is an interesting cure for that: If the membership is not happy with TB it can vote it out. At least 4 of the 9 members terms expire in any given year.

Of course, if you find that the membership is, indeed, happy with the TB, and you are very upset about some action that it took (or did not take), then you might have to re-think whether it is TB or you who is not being objective enough.

Inflated numbers seem to be the rule, with or without Ipads.

As of this moment, FT's main page says we have 331,550 members. How many of them, however, are really active?

We can get a hint by looking at some other figures. FT, right now, has 15,991,440 posts.

Here are the posts from the last 10 members who posted in this thread:

Obscure2K: 17,718
Kokonutz: 13,331
Dovster: 28,491
cblaisd: 22,844
SkiAdcock: 24,195
Jenbel: 24,041
Idsant: 7951
gedluca: 386
OzStamps: 31,847
Jackal: 9527

That is a total of 156,136 posts. The average is 15613.6 posts each.

If they are typical, than the 15,991,440 posts in all of FT's history were made by 1024 posters. This is just .03% of the theoretical 331,550 members on FT.


Speaking of inflated numbers.

This forum may be the least representative on all of FT, in that newer members seem very unlikely to read it, much less post. So that skews the post counts here way up. Try the same analysis on something like the Capital One 100K Credit Card thread, and I'll bet you see much much lower numbers.

TB is not objective enough to do this. Twice we've had situations when someone on TB has grossly failed in their duties, and their friends on TB have refused to act properly and remove them from TB, to enable the members to receive proper representation. Apparently to some TB members, friendship overrides their requirement to act in the best interests of FT.

As such, I don't think TB has the required objectivity to act as a court of appeal. But I suppose you can always ignore reality to dream can't you? Sadly, TB has proved to be all too fallible and parochial in dealing with misdemeanours of its own members to be given this rather important responsibility across the entire forum.

I don't think I want the winners of a popularity contest ruling deciding who should and shouldn't be banned from FT... Mods receive training in the TOS. Given the number of TB members who have received suspensions, it appears that the understanding of the TOS by TB members can be very poor.I have heard similar criticisms of moderators, training or no.

At least the TB is responsible to the posters.

Randy always kept a thick wall between Moderator and TB responsibilities. I don't think that was wise. I'd like to see the TB and Mods engage in far more collaboration.

So given the requirements of confidentiality around member suspensions, how exactly do you both see TB being responsible to the members if they acted as the court of appeal?

If member A, who is a good friend of 5 members of TB, indulges in some stalking by PM, is reported to the mods, receives a ban, and that ban is then overturned by member's A friends because he is their friend, how on earth are the members going to hear about any of that to know that the friends of member A have acted with partisanship?

I love the way you guys have complete faith in TB, and very little in mods, when TB has very publicly on a number of occasions shown it can and will act parochially and against the best interest of the members!

I suppose though, if you were those TB members, refusing to act against your friends - even when they had completely failed to carry out their elected responsibilities - you'd see nothing wrong with your actions and might even try to claim the moral high ground.

My points are this:

1) mods are just as susceptible to selective punishment as anyone. cops, whoever they may be, have discretion. just a fact of life. but the tb are responsible to the posters. the mods not so much.

2) i'm not trying to make this tb vs. mods. that's 'back then' thinking and imho not very productive. i believe that the tb and mods should be required to collaborate. both bodies are charged with making ft a better place. they can better achieve that goal through increased collaboration. they should work together to review the tos, work on moderator best practices, etc. the elected tb could serve a very positive role in making FT a 'friendlier' and more user responsive place when it comes to appointed mods by providing poster perspective to their process..sort of like a civilian review panel in metropolitan police departments, which goes back to the op of this thread.

So given the requirements of confidentiality around member suspensions, how exactly do you both see TB being responsible to the members if they acted as the court of appeal?

By getting rid of the very negative "requirements of confidentiality".

If I make a post today, it is in no way confidential. If a moderator feels that it is a TOS violation, why should that be confidential? Who is that confidentiality protecting? Certainly not me as the poster.

Moreover, if I do agree that the suspension was warranted I can simply not appeal it -- and TalkBoard will never learn about it. But if I feel that it is not warranted, and want to bring it to TalkBoard, I am waiving any confidentiality (which really does not exist as the 80+ mods can find out about my present or past suspensions anytime they want).

Of course, what the confidentiality does do is protect the moderator who erred in giving a suspension. It obviously in no way protects a mod who correctly gives one.

It has been 4 months since I posted some ideas which several people thought were "great" btw. Why hasn't anything been done? (see post #15 or thereabouts).

It has been 4 months since I posted some ideas which several people thought were "great" btw. Why hasn't anything been done? (see post #15 or thereabouts).
If this is the post you're referring to:

Some improvements I would like to see:

Rotate moderators - allow "new blood" in - some folks have 3/4 forums - have more people who want to be volunteers the opportunity

Stop with the merging of the threads - archive posts that are >3 years old and alllow searching if somebody wants to - keep things fresh but make it easy for people to find things.

There are certain people who are continuously snarky and offer no information yet due to pure post count they are seen as "evangelists". Get rid of the "extra" titles. Or get rid of the threads that count for post counting like counting from 1 to 1billion.

Bring back live chats with airline/hotel people. Those were interesting - but make them live/webinar rather than the slow chat that currently exists.

There's not much in there that TalkBoard has influence over. TalkBoard has no oversight of moderation of any kind. The best place to take your concerns would be SanDiego1K, who is responsible for the forum moderators, moderation policies, and appealing any moderation actions. (SkiAdcock indicated she would forward your concerns to the appropriate parties, so it's probably a valid assumption that your feedback has been received, but I'd suggest following up directly with SanDiego1K.)

The last one is something that the forum administration (i.e. SanDiego1K, most likely in conjunction with Internet Brands) would be responsible for setting up, unless an outside volunteer wanted to try to put something together. TalkBoard could recommend it to SanDiego1K, but the actual implementation would be far beyond anything TalkBoard could do, especially if it involves implementing technology that doesn't already exist on FlyerTalk. That said, it's an excellent place for someone to volunteer to organize. My schedule's a bit full right now, but if you have the time and organizational/networking skills to get in touch with the right people, the volunteer slot is wide open. ;)

I have to say, after poking around MP a bit last night, that many of the core travel forums do seem a bit dusty. Which I guess makes sense when we consider that the focus of MP was to be on the social network aspect of today's Internet rather than straight information sharing. I'm told that most of the really good data exchange on MP takes place in private and semi-private 'conversations' allowed by MP's platform.

That said, I got an email from AA yesterday with my account balance that got me poking around MP in the first place. It included the following:

Dear kokonutz,

Last month, AAdvantage® members joined Maya Leibman, President of the AAdvantage Loyalty Program, for the first "A Conversation with..." live chat series on MilePoint, the online meeting place and forum for travelers. If you missed the chat or want to see additional questions she has since answered, visit AA.com/chat.

I realize that Randy and Tommy have established relationships with the programs via their work on the Freddies and the FT Awards and so it makes sense that AA might think that MP is 'the online meeting place and forum for travelers,' but:

1) are these sorts of interactions with program reps the sort of things the TB sees as a benefit to FTers, and

2) if so, do you want to recommend that they be attempted?

3) or is this something the CD and TB have discussed in the past.

After all, there are tens of thousands of more AAdvantage, MileagePlus, etc eyes on FT than there are on MP.

OTOH, FT already has many company reps that participate here on a regular basis (and I'd rather have Starwood Lurker here 24/7 than have Maya Leibman once)...so is there much value to be added from these sorts of chats?

I am still waiting for the United Mileage Plus chat session that was postponed around 9/11. Randy always said he would work to get it rescheduled.

I actually found the sessions to be interesting... and appreciated the influx of new members we saw as a result of the sessions.

I did, however, find the chat to be wieldy and unfriendly. I agree with Ldsant, would be nice to have a webinar type forum for these chats.

Heck, I would settle for another TB chat... :)

I am still waiting for the United Mileage Plus chat session that was postponed around 9/11. Randy always said he would work to get it rescheduled.

I actually found the sessions to be interesting... and appreciated the influx of new members we saw as a result of the sessions.

I did, however, find the chat to be wieldy and unfriendly. I agree with Ldsant, would be nice to have a webinar type forum for these chats.

Heck, I would settle for another TB chat... :)

I agree that the 'chats' either end up stiflingly regimented/regulated or a free-for-all. I'm not sure either of those approaches serve the posters well.

As I say, I think the perfect situation is having a company rep hanging out in the program's forum to address issues as they arise! ^

hIf this is the post you're referring to:



There's not much in there that TalkBoard has influence over. TalkBoard has no oversight of moderation of any kind. The best place to take your concerns would be SanDiego1K, who is responsible for the forum moderators, moderation policies, and appealing any moderation actions. (SkiAdcock indicated she would forward your concerns to the appropriate parties, so it's probably a valid assumption that your feedback has been received, but I'd suggest following up directly with SanDiego1K.)

The last one is something that the forum administration (i.e. SanDiego1K, most likely in conjunction with Internet Brands) would be responsible for setting up, unless an outside volunteer wanted to try to put something together. TalkBoard could recommend it to SanDiego1K, but the actual implementation would be far beyond anything TalkBoard could do, especially if it involves implementing technology that doesn't already exist on FlyerTalk. That said, it's an excellent place for someone to volunteer to organize. My schedule's a bit full right now, but if you have the time and organizational/networking skills to get in touch with the right people, the volunteer slot is wide open. ;)

can't do anythinhg is there a forum for TalkBoard topics?:confused: Seems like a waste of time, Interesting that Miles was able to get a cat set up really quickly wihle the response here is laissez-faire at best or "call Carol."

can't do anythinhg is there a forum for TalkBoard topics?:confused: Seems like a waste of time, Interesting that Miles was able to get a cat set up really quickly wihle the response here is laissez-faire at best or "call Carol."
Is that a reference to all the folks who have cats as their avatars on 'Miles?' ;):p

can't do anythinhg is there a forum for TalkBoard topics?:confused: Seems like a waste of time, Interesting that Miles was able to get a cat set up really quickly wihle the response here is laissez-faire at best or "call Carol."

The answer isn't always "Call Carol", but if the question happens to broach the subject of moderation or moderator action, then the answer will be "Call Carol" as the TalkBoard has no purview over moderators, moderation, or moderator action.

The answer isn't always "Call Carol", but if the question happens to broach the subject of moderation or moderator action, then the answer will be "Call Carol" as the TalkBoard has no purview over moderators, moderation, or moderator action.

If the TB can rewrite the TOS, then the TB has a say when it comes to moderations.. You know the same TB members who also hold the title of moderators.. I think you're one of them.. {inserts omni pr rolleyes}

If the TB can rewrite the TOS, then the TB has a say when it comes to moderations.. You know the same TB members who also hold the title of moderators.. I think you're one of them.. {inserts omni pr rolleyes}

TalkBoard does not oversee moderators or moderator actions.

If you're dissatisfied with this policy, contact the community director, SanDiego1K. Moderation is solely her purview.

Spiff gets the last word on the discussion of moderation. As been said many times, the TalkBoard has nothing to do with moderation policy. Please contact Carol - The Community Director privately if you have any questions or comments on the subject.