Las Vegas - Overnighting in Death Valley to see Ghost Towns or Zion National Park from LV?

I'm planning a trip to Vegas for mid-May and am interested in visiting Death Valley or Zion National Park. Looks like Death Valley is roughly a 2.5 hour drive from Vegas and Zion is 3. I'd like to do an overnight to one or the other from my stay in Vegas. Death Valley would be for visiting ghost towns (with a regular, non-off road rental vehicle) or day-hiking Zion.

Are there any reasonably priced options close to Death Valley aside from camping? Hoping to spend less than USD $100 for one night. Same goes for visiting Zion. What towns are close by with good lodging? About the lowest in quality I tend to prefer is on the level of a Sleep Inn (nothing fancy but typically clean and quiet with interior corridors).

Will probably have to "eat" a hotel night during my stay in Vegas, but I'm more interested in national parks than gambling. Again, the general idea is that these parks are probably a bit too far away to see the highlights in a day.

I'd also like me and my wife to see a clear desert sky at night. Never have, and we sure won't get that in Vegas due to light pollution. Another good reason for an overnight near one of the two national parks.

I have stayed at the Motel 6 in Beatty, NV. You are about 15-20 minutes from Death Valley at that point. There was a casino next door (or up the road) which had a little diner. Not too bad.

You could always try to stay at one of the hotels in the park. I would recommend finding your way to the sand dunes and walk out into them prior to sunrise. The colors are amazing.

Good luck and enjoy.

I've always camped when I went to Death Valley, but the Panamint Springs Resort always looked interesting in a kitschy way. I've never stayed there, but the restaurant is good with a nice beer selection. It's very much an old-school motel, but in an outstanding location in the middle of nowhere. There are also a couple of motels in Tecopa, on the south side of the park right by the hot springs. I recall one of them having hot springs pools adjacent to the rooms. There is a fantastic little bistro in Tecopa as well, although the name escapes me.

There is also the uber-expensive Furnace Creek Inn right near the visitor's centre.

As for ghost towns, Rhyolite is right over the NV border and is moderately interesting, albeit touristy.

Thank you both. Neither I or my wife are campers. Love day hikes and nature but want a nice comfortable bed at the end of the day. The hot spring pools sound interesting.

I've always camped when I went to Death Valley

Where did you camp? I posted another thread (titled badly, I'm afraid) about Death Valley. I think I'm finally going to get there next month. I'm assuming LAS is the best place to fly into. I'm trying to come up with a loop itinerary. Probably stuck with a non-4 wheel rental, but I'm hiker (no backpacking this time) and I'm planning on camping. I'm assuming (?) it might make sense to shift campgrounds at least once? I'm thinking 4-6 days.

Don't suppose you ever took your tent on the plane? I know I can't take the pegs, but I hate checking anymore than I have to. Big big hassle if I arrive and my tent is checked and doesn't show up. I can always buy stakes, but I don't know if they'll have a problem with the poles.

Where did you camp? I posted another thread (titled badly, I'm afraid) about Death Valley. I think I'm finally going to get there next month. I'm assuming LAS is the best place to fly into. I'm trying to come up with a loop itinerary. Probably stuck with a non-4 wheel rental, but I'm hiker (no backpacking this time) and I'm planning on camping. I'm assuming (?) it might make sense to shift campgrounds at least once? I'm thinking 4-6 days.

Don't suppose you ever took your tent on the plane? I know I can't take the pegs, but I hate checking anymore than I have to. Big big hassle if I arrive and my tent is checked and doesn't show up. I can always buy stakes, but I don't know if they'll have a problem with the poles.

You can camp pretty much anywhere that is more than a mile off of pavement within the park boundaries. Obviously, you would want to check with rangers to verify the veracity of my recollection, but... Most of the main gravel roads are passable in passenger cars if taken slowly. We spent a couple of nights camped not far south of the Dante's turnoff and the other nights camped on the unnamed road that leads to the dunes north of the Panamint Valley resort (close to the dunes and Darwin Spring, which is not to be missed). We also spent a night camped on the property of a friend of a friend near Tecopa.I wanted to camp up by the racetrack, but we ran out of time.

I always pack my 4-season, 3 person backpacking tent, stakes included, when I travel, and will be doing so next month when my wife and I pop out to Bryce and Escalante prior to enduring a wedding in LV (blech, I utterly hate that place...). I have one of the the huge North Face reinforced gear duffels which nicely fits all of our gear, inclusive of sleeping bags, tent, cooking supplies, etc..., although it does need to be checked. I have hand-carried my sleeping bad and bivvy sack a bunch of times, though. The only thing I end up buying on the ground upon arrival is stove fuel and food. Stock up on fuel and food prior to leaving LV, as the store inside DVNP has prices that will make your eyes water and wallet sob (White fuel for my stove was 6x more expensive than in Pahrump, so I ended up using diesel, as it was waaaay cheaper, albeit dirtier...).

I don't have any suggestions for where to stay, but will give you my opinion on where to go...

ZION ZION ZION

This:

http://www.utahtripadvisor.com/image-files/subway-zion-national-park.jpg

http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/zion-national-park-watchman-trail-utah-ut332.jpg

or:

http://blog.ratestogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/death-valley.jpg

Don't get me wrong - I love the desert and all that goes with it. BUT if you had to choose one, go to Zion.

I don't have any suggestions for where to stay, but will give you my opinion on where to go...

ZION ZION ZION

This:

http://www.utahtripadvisor.com/image-files/subway-zion-national-park.jpg

http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/zion-national-park-watchman-trail-utah-ut332.jpg

or:

http://blog.ratestogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/death-valley.jpg

Don't get me wrong - I love the desert and all that goes with it. BUT if you had to choose one, go to Zion.

^^^ I've travelled a fair amount throughout the Southwest, but Zion is still one of my favorite places on earth.

Ok, so where are some good towns to stay in close to Zion? Any specific hotel recommendations? Or hotels to steer clear of? Looking for USD $100 a night or less. A Choice Hotels "Sleep Inn"-style place would be fine.

Ok, so where are some good towns to stay in close to Zion? Any specific hotel recommendations? Or hotels to steer clear of? Looking for USD $100 a night or less. A Choice Hotels "Sleep Inn"-style place would be fine.

I always camp, but you can probably find something to suit in Hurricane or La Verkin (Comfort Inn, Travelodge, Super 8), etc.

And unless something's changed, Oscar's in Springdale (town outside the 'main' entrance to the park) is a great place to eat. (So good that I eat every meal there whenever I go to Zion).

I don't have any suggestions for where to stay, but will give you my opinion on where to go...

ZION ZION ZION

Don't get me wrong - I love the desert and all that goes with it. BUT if you had to choose one, go to Zion.

I surely agree. I have been to both places, and Zion National Park offers so much better natural beauty, indeed breathtaking. If you have the time, visit Bryce Canyon National Park near Zion, which is also a place of phenomenal natural beauty. For me, it was a visit of a lifetime.

Zion (2- 2.5 hours travel time OW) (Stunning, done it in winter and summer) loads of small motels in Springdale, UT)

Death Valley (3-3.5 hours OW) did it in day trips only;

Closer and nice: Valley of Fire State Park (1-1.5 hours OW)

Mt Charleston (45 mi -1.25 hours OW)

Zion (2- 2.5 hours travel time OW) (Stunning, done it in winter and summer) loads of small motels in Springdale, UT)

Death Valley (3-3.5 hours OW) did it in day trips only;

Closer and nice: Valley of Fire State Park (1-1.5 hours OW)

Mt Charleston (45 mi -1.25 hours OW)

Is there likely to be snow on Mt Charleton in mid-May?

Valley of Fire is truly lovely, I think it gets overlooked sometimes because it's west of Vegas and anyone flying in to go to Zion/Bryce will be heading in the opposite direction.

Zion. The park is much more compact and diverse. You can also make a loop and add Cedar Breaks if you plan a two day trip.

Zion. The park is much more compact and diverse. You can also make a loop and add Cedar Breaks if you plan a two day trip.

Thanks everyone. How do Zion, Bryce, and Cedar Breaks compare with Arches and Canyonlands "Islands in the Sky" district? Did some hiking in both and absolutely loved the day hikes at Canyonlands. Really stunning. Arches I did the day after and it seemed ho-hum. Perhaps too well-traveled. Don't know. It was missing something.

Absolutely want the natural beauty, but also going for a ghost town Old West component. And Death Valley has several ghost towns. Are there any ghost towns (accessible via 2WD rental car) in or near Zion/Bryce that are more than just a few foundations and rubble piles?

If I can modify my flights (they're part of a package and I don't think I'm going to have any luck changing them), my wife and I have considered seeing Zion/Bryce during the Vegas portion of the trip, then heading through Death Valley (to see bits) and all the way up to Yosemite Valley. The waterfalls should be in full force then. We originally considered a Tahoe + Yosemite trip, but evidently the mountain passes connecting Tahoe and Yosemite (e.g. Tioga road, etc) and impassable in mid to late May. Love desert, but might love Alpine stuff more. But due to the time of year, I figured desert was more of a Sure Thing. Both are terrific. No bad choices, really.

Anyway, my flight-change dilemma is with a Southwest Vacation Package and got its own thread. Anyone here with Southwest Airlines expertise?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/southwest-rapid-rewards/1187421-changing-return-flight-southwest-vacation-package.html

Thanks everyone. How do Zion, Bryce, and Cedar Breaks compare with Arches and Canyonlands "Islands in the Sky" district? Did some hiking in both and absolutely loved the day hikes at Canyonlands. Really stunning. Arches I did the day after and it seemed ho-hum. Perhaps too well-traveled. Don't know. It was missing something.

Absolutely want the natural beauty, but also going for a ghost town Old West component. And Death Valley has several ghost towns. Are there any ghost towns (accessible via 2WD rental car) in or near Zion/Bryce that are more than just a few foundations and rubble piles?

If I can modify my flights (they're part of a package and I don't think I'm going to have any luck changing them), my wife and I have considered seeing Zion/Bryce during the Vegas portion of the trip, then heading through Death Valley (to see bits) and all the way up to Yosemite Valley. The waterfalls should be in full force then. We originally considered a Tahoe + Yosemite trip, but evidently the mountain passes connecting Tahoe and Yosemite (e.g. Tioga road, etc) and impassable in mid to late May. Love desert, but might love Alpine stuff more. But due to the time of year, I figured desert was more of a Sure Thing. Both are terrific. No bad choices, really.

Anyway, my flight-change dilemma is with a Southwest Vacation Package and got its own thread. Anyone here with Southwest Airlines expertise?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/southwest-rapid-rewards/1187421-changing-return-flight-southwest-vacation-package.html

1. Bryce / Zion are amazing. Stop worrying. Get online and start planning what you want to see.

2. You don't go there looking for ghost towns.

3. Just realize that you are talking about seeing a whole lot in a very small time.

- Zion for just overnight will be amazing, but still rushed and don't discount the drive from Vegas. It won't feel short, and the days will go by quick.

- The drive from Vegas to Yosemite will be a monster, let alone going through Death Valley on the way. You didn't mention how much time, but I'm guessing you meant doing it quick. Yosemite is one of the most beautiful places on earth (as is Bryce/Zion). It's a vacation unto itself.

Just consider all of this. Things seem easier in the abstract. Good luck.

If you go to Zion, bring binoculars. There are always dozens of cliff climbers there. It's really quite a site to watch them.

1. Bryce / Zion are amazing. Stop worrying. Get online and start planning what you want to see.

2. You don't go there looking for ghost towns.

3. Just realize that you are talking about seeing a whole lot in a very small time.

- Zion for just overnight will be amazing, but still rushed and don't discount the drive from Vegas. It won't feel short, and the days will go by quick.

- The drive from Vegas to Yosemite will be a monster, let alone going through Death Valley on the way. You didn't mention how much time, but I'm guessing you meant doing it quick. Yosemite is one of the most beautiful places on earth (as is Bryce/Zion). It's a vacation unto itself.

Just consider all of this. Things seem easier in the abstract. Good luck.

Thanks lands. Helps put it all in some perspective. Yeah, Yosemite is probably better saved for a completely separate trip.

If you go to Zion, bring binoculars. There are always dozens of cliff climbers there. It's really quite a site to watch them.

Even better to be one of them! :D

You probably allready made up your mind, but here's my opinion. We did a roundtrip in the west of the US last year with rental car, including Yosemite, death valley, vegas, valley of fire & zion.

If you start from Vegas then yes Yosemite is out of the question. Too far and you have to drive thru Death Valley to get there.
To choose between Death Valley or Zion is not easy for me, I loved Death Valley, but it's very hot and you will drive your car around a lot because i'ts so big. We stayed in death valley 2 day with overnight in Stovepipe wells. We basically saw everything except Scotty's Castle & the racetrack. We saw the sand dunes, badwater, devils golf course, all the scenic stops on the road going from the visitor centre to the south, then also eastbound into the mountains to Zabriskie point and dante's view. Then back to the north east leaving the valley to a ghost town. Again we should have stayed 3 days in order to also visit scotty's castle & the race track (the northern part of death valley).

Now since you have limited time you would prefer Zion. It is smaller than death valley, but don't expect to do many hiking if you have only 1 day. First of all you need to drive there from Vegas, and back. When we were there last year after we left Death valley we drove via vegas to St George. we stayed there in the ramada Inn, which was nice and not pricey. The next day we visited Zion. It took about 45min from St George to Zion. Then we did the riverside walk & some other short walks. There were soe nice hiking routes alongside the rocks in zion, but the one we wanted to do was at least 3h and we needed to be in Bryce canyon in the evening. So I would recommend you to drive from vegas to st george and stay in a hotel there. There are many hotels there so you should find some cheap one. Then get up as early as possible and drive to Zion. Best to select beforehand what you want to do in Zion. I recommend that walking trip which takes you between the rocks. The river side walk is also nice but it is flat and follows the river bed. If you manage to get in Zion very early then you could do some nice walks/hikes. In the evening I would recommend sleeping in St George again, then returning to Vegas the next day. I think arranging your Zion visit this way would give you the maximum pleasure out of 1 day Zion.
And the other forum member is right about Valley of Fire park. If you drive from Vegas to St George/zion you must visit Valley of fire. It is only a small detour. (or you could do it on your way back from st george to vegas)

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Last tip : Yosemite definately tops both of these, but you need a couple of days at least to realy see Yosemite. It is huge and very diverse.

Zion, as one poster has already said, is one of my favorite places. I have been to Death Valley (and actually going again next weekend) and it has it's own brand of beauty, but you should not miss Zion.

If you have one day in Zion, consider one of these hikes, either of which is only about a 1/2 day:

1. Narrows Hike -- you step off the pavement at the end of the riverside paved trail and continue up the river a couple of miles to the Narrows section where the canyon walls are 1000+ ft high. An outfit like Zion Adventure Company (http://www.zionadventures.com/) can make sure you have the right shoes, etc. The only problem with this for your time of year is that the Spring runoff may close this trail.

2. Angel's Landing -- moderately strenuous with about 1500 ft of elevation gain, but absolutely incredible 360 views of the canyon. Not for those with a fear of heights.

I have a few pictures from these hikes here. (http://www.pbase.com/thargrove/zion_2004)

Have a great time!

Zion, as one poster has already said, is one of my favorite places. I have been to Death Valley (and actually going again next weekend) and it has it's own brand of beauty, but you should not miss Zion.

If you have one day in Zion, consider one of these hikes, either of which is only about a 1/2 day:

1. Narrows Hike -- you step off the pavement at the end of the riverside paved trail and continue up the river a couple of miles to the Narrows section where the canyon walls are 1000+ ft high. An outfit like Zion Adventure Company (http://www.zionadventures.com/) can make sure you have the right shoes, etc. The only problem with this for your time of year is that the Spring runoff may close this trail.

2. Angel's Landing -- moderately strenuous with about 1500 ft of elevation gain, but absolutely incredible 360 views of the canyon. Not for those with a fear of heights.

I have a few pictures from these hikes here. (http://www.pbase.com/thargrove/zion_2004)

Have a great time!

As a long-time Zion-lover, thanks for posting those pics. I really need to go back and do the Narrows again (top to bottom).

I'm heading (I hope) to Death Valley next month. Still gathering recommendations.

BTW, your location say TX. I know it's an enormous state, but I'm wondering if you've been (hiked) Big Bend, and if so, what you think of it. It's been on my wish list for a long time.

BTW, your location say TX. I know it's an enormous state, but I'm wondering if you've been (hiked) Big Bend, and if so, what you think of it. It's been on my wish list for a long time.

I have not hiked Big Bend (at least since Jr High). I live east of Dallas...it's actually easier to get to Southern Utah (by plane) than to Big Bend! It is on my short list, though.

Yosemite would be difficult since Tioga Pass may be closed due to snow. It usually opens up in late May, so you'd be taking a risk if you drove up the Eastern Sierra, which is a spectacular drive, btw.

I agree with the others that Zion is the way to go for an overnight. Death Valley is a lot of driving - it's a big park and all the roads are only 2 lanes. And, drives out to places like the Racetrack are probably, technically in violation of your car rental agreement.

It's unfortunate about the timing. If you really wanted to see a great ghost town, then Bodie up in the Eastern Sierra, near Tioga Pass, is fantastic.

Yosemite would be difficult since Tioga Pass may be closed due to snow. It usually opens up in late May, so you'd be taking a risk if you drove up the Eastern Sierra, which is a spectacular drive, btw.

I agree with the others that Zion is the way to go for an overnight. Death Valley is a lot of driving - it's a big park and all the roads are only 2 lanes. And, drives out to places like the Racetrack are probably, technically in violation of your car rental agreement.

It's unfortunate about the timing. If you really wanted to see a great ghost town, then Bodie up in the Eastern Sierra, near Tioga Pass, is fantastic.

Thanks everyone. Yeah, the timing's indeed unfortunate. Bodie is tops on my list of Ghost Towns To Visit and has been on my radar for a while. Seems like one of the few with any significant number of buildings left. I agree with you that Tioga Pass is out for this time of year. On the other hand, if I run up through Bakersfield and Fresno on I-15, there shouldn't be any snow problems, correct?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FdYQJwIdMJoi-SnRffWkgre-gDGjebPV5tXMOg%3BFeXqPwId52rf-CmvY_I4_vGWgDFu4slULj8hGQ&q=las+vegas,+nv+to+Yosemite+Valley,+CA&aq=&sll=45.30682,-48.246347&sspn=59.468373,158.027344&ie=UTF8&z=7&saddr=las+vegas,+nv&daddr=Yosemite+Valley,+CA

Also, google maps reports that Yosemite Valley is about an 8.5 hour drive from Vegas via I-15 (of course this route skips Death Valley). I've often done longer drives than that in a day (e.g. Raleigh to Orlando) and could fly out of Sacramento if I extended my trip. I often drive to Orlando to visit family, and of course that means driving the ~10 hours home back to Raleigh. On a side-trip to Yosemite, I wouldn't have a long drive back to Vegas--I'd just fly out of Sacramento, Modesto, or Fresno.

Perhaps I could see Zion mid-Vegas-trip, then Death Valley on the way to Yosemite *if* I extend my trip by enough days. I have 5 nights in Vegas. I may extend so I can fly home 3 days later than I'd planned.

I realize things could be a bit rushed; but then I've flown to Japan for a week (where travel time is eaten up in days on either end) because I had the opportunity--and some Japan was better than no Japan. Some might tell me, hey, don't bother. You won't have enough time to see anything. I saw plenty on that trip and have fond memories of it.

The same may be true of visits to any of these parks however short (Death Valley, Zion, Yosemite). And visiting may whet my appetite for coming back and planning for a longer, more focused trip. I'm OK with sampling.

If I haven't already mentioned this, another thing I'm considering strongly is extending my trip by 2-3 days then flying out of Salt Lake City. It's only a 6.5 hour drive from LAS to SLC, and that would be broken up by a stay in St. George to see Zion/Bryce. And possibly another overnight somewhere in between.

Las Vegas to Salt Lake City:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FdYQJwIdMJoi-SnRffWkgre-gDGjebPV5tXMOg%3BFcv1bQIdma1U-SntMdGIlD1ShzHKMU1IoLdTWw&q=las+vegas,+nv+to+salt+lake+city,+ut&aq=&sll=36.307865,-117.48339&sspn=4.284625,9.876709&ie=UTF8&z=6&saddr=las+vegas,+nv&daddr=salt+lake+city,+ut

Is there anything worth seeing nature-wise (or ghost-town wise) between St. George and SLC? Would love to head back over to Canyonlands National Park, but that's too far out of the way--and it would make a lot more sense then to fly home from Grand Junction (GJT). But flights home from GJT are a lot more expensive than from SLC. And lodging in Moab = expensive. Visited Moab on a memorial day weekend (part of the problem) and rates for even completely crap lodging were sky high in Moab. Ended up staying 1 hour away in a KOA cabin in Green River so our budget wouldn't be busted. Nothing to write home about, but the costs were reasonable and it was only a 1 hr drive away. But I don't care for KOA's "bring your own linen" policy. Looked a little skanky as well, but I felt quite safe there. I don't camp. The KOA cabin is the closest I'll go to camping. Too bad because costs are so much cheaper with camping. It's just not my thing. I love being out in nature during the day hiking, etc, then having a comfortable bed at night.

So who'd vote for a run up I-15 and flying out of SLC? What's worth seeing along the way aside from Zion / Bryce? Again a shame that snow could be an issue. I've heard the alpine area north of SLC (Logan?) is stunning.

Thanks everyone. Yeah, the timing's indeed unfortunate. Bodie is tops on my list of Ghost Towns To Visit and has been on my radar for a while. Seems like one of the few with any significant number of buildings left. I agree with you that Tioga Pass is out for this time of year. On the other hand, if I run up through Bakersfield and Fresno on I-15, there shouldn't be any snow problems, correct?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FdYQJwIdMJoi-SnRffWkgre-gDGjebPV5tXMOg%3BFeXqPwId52rf-CmvY_I4_vGWgDFu4slULj8hGQ&q=las+vegas,+nv+to+Yosemite+Valley,+CA&aq=&sll=45.30682,-48.246347&sspn=59.468373,158.027344&ie=UTF8&z=7&saddr=las+vegas,+nv&daddr=Yosemite+Valley,+CA

Also, google maps reports that Yosemite Valley is about an 8.5 hour drive from Vegas via I-15 (of course this route skips Death Valley). I've often done longer drives than that in a day (e.g. Raleigh to Orlando) and could fly out of Sacramento if I extended my trip. I often drive to Orlando to visit family, and of course that means driving the ~10 hours home back to Raleigh. On a side-trip to Yosemite, I wouldn't have a long drive back to Vegas--I'd just fly out of Sacramento, Modesto, or Fresno.

Perhaps I could see Zion mid-Vegas-trip, then Death Valley on the way to Yosemite *if* I extend my trip by enough days. I have 5 nights in Vegas. I may extend so I can fly home 3 days later than I'd planned.

I realize things could be a bit rushed; but then I've flown to Japan for a week (where travel time is eaten up in days on either end) because I had the opportunity--and some Japan was better than no Japan. Some might tell me, hey, don't bother. You won't have enough time to see anything. I saw plenty on that trip and have fond memories of it.

The same may be true of visits to any of these parks however short (Death Valley, Zion, Yosemite). And visiting may whet my appetite for coming back and planning for a longer, more focused trip. I'm OK with sampling.

If I haven't already mentioned this, another thing I'm considering strongly is extending my trip by 2-3 days then flying out of Salt Lake City. It's only a 6.5 hour drive from LAS to SLC, and that would be broken up by a stay in St. George to see Zion/Bryce. And possibly another overnight somewhere in between.

Las Vegas to Salt Lake City:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=FdYQJwIdMJoi-SnRffWkgre-gDGjebPV5tXMOg%3BFcv1bQIdma1U-SntMdGIlD1ShzHKMU1IoLdTWw&q=las+vegas,+nv+to+salt+lake+city,+ut&aq=&sll=36.307865,-117.48339&sspn=4.284625,9.876709&ie=UTF8&z=6&saddr=las+vegas,+nv&daddr=salt+lake+city,+ut

Is there anything worth seeing nature-wise (or ghost-town wise) between St. George and SLC? Would love to head back over to Canyonlands National Park, but that's too far out of the way--and it would make a lot more sense then to fly home from Grand Junction (GJT). But flights home from GJT are a lot more expensive than from SLC. And lodging in Moab = expensive. Visited Moab on a memorial day weekend (part of the problem) and rates for even completely crap lodging were sky high in Moab. Ended up staying 1 hour away in a KOA cabin in Green River so our budget wouldn't be busted. Nothing to write home about, but the costs were reasonable and it was only a 1 hr drive away. But I don't care for KOA's "bring your own linen" policy. Looked a little skanky as well, but I felt quite safe there. I don't camp. The KOA cabin is the closest I'll go to camping. Too bad because costs are so much cheaper with camping. It's just not my thing. I love being out in nature during the day hiking, etc, then having a comfortable bed at night.

So who'd vote for a run up I-15 and flying out of SLC? What's worth seeing along the way aside from Zion / Bryce? Again a shame that snow could be an issue. I've heard the alpine area north of SLC (Logan?) is stunning.

Well, it's too late tonight for me to suggest an alternate route, but I've done that route three or four times, last time about 5 years ago, and I don't remember the drive as being particularly inspiring. However, it's possible that there's good state parks or ghost towns along the way - I just drove straight through.

I'm looking to extend my stay from 5 nights to 7 so I don't have to choose between Death Valley and Zion. I will have to "downgrade" from the MGM Grand to Harrah's. Please see my post from today below:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/las-vegas/1186270-mgm-grand-room-better-deluxe-west-wing-tower-2.html

Long story short is that by switching hotels in my Southwest package, the price difference between the MGM Grand and Harrah's is around $233--enough to pay for two hotel stays, one perhaps in Beatty, NV and one perhaps in St. George, UT. The "Furnace" hotels *inside* Death Valley are definitely out of budget.

Any thoughts on that choice? As long as I'm in a reasonably clean (I am *not* an OCD germ freak), quiet (my wife and I are light sleepers) room I'm fine. Nearly any mid-shelf hotel beats camping for comfort any night.

I'm looking to extend my stay from 5 nights to 7 so I don't have to choose between Death Valley and Zion. I will have to "downgrade" from the MGM Grand to Harrah's. Please see my post from today below:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/las-vegas/1186270-mgm-grand-room-better-deluxe-west-wing-tower-2.html

Long story short is that by switching hotels in my Southwest package, the price difference between the MGM Grand and Harrah's is around $233--enough to pay for two hotel stays, one perhaps in Beatty, NV and one perhaps in St. George, UT. The "Furnace" hotels *inside* Death Valley are definitely out of budget.

Any thoughts on that choice? As long as I'm in a reasonably clean (I am *not* an OCD germ freak), quiet (my wife and I are light sleepers) room I'm fine. Nearly any mid-shelf hotel beats camping for comfort any night.

No advice on hotels, but I'm sure you won't regret extending your trip. I'm off to DV for the first time in 2 weeks myself, but your posts have me wondering why I didn't extend my own trip to get back to Zion. Guess I'll just have to plan another trip.

I hope you post a trip report when you get back!

No advice on hotels, but I'm sure you won't regret extending your trip. I'm off to DV for the first time in 2 weeks myself, but your posts have me wondering why I didn't extend my own trip to get back to Zion. Guess I'll just have to plan another trip.
I hope you post a trip report when you get back!

Thanks Chollie! I'll try to take notes. :-)

From my MGM post:
The deed is done. I booked with Harrah's. Also saved around $40 with a 7 day car rental through Budget over a 5 day rental with Fox.

I'm sure Harrah's will be fine for my purposes.

Now I can see both Death Valley *and* Zion/Bryce. Still may be rushed in some peoples' opinions, but it will be a great introduction to the region.

Also see that there's a great deal of other lovely natural stuff to see closer by, e.g. Mt. Charleston, Red Rock Canyon, etc. Figure with the car rental I got, I can do nature in the morning / early afternoon and see cheesy Vegas stuff in the evenings.

Thanks to all for the help. I'll take any additional 2WD road (not 4WD) ghost town suggestions if anyone has any additional ones. :-)

Thanks everyone. Yeah, the timing's indeed unfortunate. Bodie is tops on my list of Ghost Towns To Visit and has been on my radar for a while. Seems like one of the few with any significant number of buildings left. I agree with you that Tioga Pass is out for this time of year. On the other hand, if I run up through Bakersfield and Fresno on I-15, there shouldn't be any snow problems, correct?


Bodie is awesome, and well worth any detour to visit, but it is also snowed in most of the winter/spring (I believe it's staffed year round, but you'd have to take a snowmobile or ski in winter). I think it varies from April to May/June when it's driveable.

The last few miles are dirt, okay in any vehicle when clear/dry, but not plowed. We went in early October a couple years ago and there was a freak snowstorm with 3-4 inches. Our 4wd didn't have too much trouble, but another truck was having trouble locking his hubs and couldn't get up one of the hills until he did. Seeing Bodie in snow (and later on a hot day) highlighted just how harsh the conditions were back then...

Bodie is awesome, and well worth any detour to visit, but it is also snowed in most of the winter/spring (I believe it's staffed year round, but you'd have to take a snowmobile or ski in winter). I think it varies from April to May/June when it's driveable.

The last few miles are dirt, okay in any vehicle when clear/dry, but not plowed. We went in early October a couple years ago and there was a freak snowstorm with 3-4 inches. Our 4wd didn't have too much trouble, but another truck was having trouble locking his hubs and couldn't get up one of the hills until he did. Seeing Bodie in snow (and later on a hot day) highlighted just how harsh the conditions were back then...

Thanks JM. Will have to plan a separate mid-summer trip for that and Yosemite then. Summer usually = crowds, so I typically try to avoid summer travel whenever possible.

Here's my latest plan:

Originally I had a Vegas hotel booked from Fri night, checking out and flying home the following Friday. Instead, I rebooked my Vegas hotel to start on Sunday night. And I made two hotel reservations: one for Friday night in St George, UT (using a free night Marriott certificate) and one for Saturday night in Springdale near the entrance to Zion. A friend suggested focusing my time in Zion, staying in Springdale, and saving Death Valley for some other time (he suggested December, and that Death Valley in May would be nearly unbearable). He even thought Bryce would be too much of a stretch for the short time I'd be in Utah.

Some questions:

Q1) My flight to Vegas arrives around 8pm. Figured it would take me until around 8:30pm to get a rental car. What is the drive like between LAS and St George? I'll be tired and my night vision isn't great. Is it mostly flat, straight desert road? Or is it twisty mountain roads? (could be tense at night). Or do you mostly find twisty mountain roads on the way from St George to Springdale / Zion?

I could stay Friday night at a Marriott near the airport, but then it would be a 3 hour drive the next morning to Zion. By driving directly to St George, I figure I'm at at least 2 hours ahead the next day.

Q2) In mid-May, how early can I arrive to Zion? Is it open 24/7 like many National Parks or is it gated (locked)? My friend suggested getting up early morning in Springdale, heading all the way to the east, then driving the scenic route westward--maybe doing the Canyon Overlook trail on the way. This way I'd catch the right shadows.

Q3) About Death Valley... my friend said the interesting features were so far apart from each other that, combined with the heat, it was impossible (or ill-advised) to do as a day trip. But I really have no idea if or when I'll ever be near Death Valley again. If I could only do a day trip to Death Valley, is there one part of it that would be worth focusing on where I'd get the most bang for my sightseeing buck? Would it make sense to head to Rhyolite (so I can see at least one ghost town) and focus on whatever inside DV is closest to that entrance?

Q4) My Moon Utah guidebook says Grafton is "one of the best preserved ghost towns in Utah" or something like that. Grafton looks like it's not far from Zion, but I've not heard any of you mention it. Anyone been to Grafton? If so, how does it measure up to Rhyolite?

Q5) What's the best Marriott property in St George, UT? I see there are three of them. We booked the Marriott TownePlace Suites--looked like the best of the three but who knows. I can cancel and rebook if necessary. Here's what I had / have to choose from:

Marriott Courtyard St George
Mariott TownePlace Suites, St George
Marriott Fairfield Inn

At least two of the above were Cat 4 (the highest class that my free night cert permits me to stay in).

Won't be there long--arriving late and leaving early. But I guess "best" to me means: quiet (very light sleeper), clean, and safe.

Here's my latest plan:

Originally I had a Vegas hotel booked from Fri night, checking out and flying home the following Friday. Instead, I rebooked my Vegas hotel to start on Sunday night. And I made two hotel reservations: one for Friday night in St George, UT (using a free night Marriott certificate) and one for Saturday night in Springdale near the entrance to Zion. A friend suggested focusing my time in Zion, staying in Springdale, and saving Death Valley for some other time (he suggested December, and that Death Valley in May would be nearly unbearable). He even thought Bryce would be too much of a stretch for the short time I'd be in Utah.

Some questions:

Q1) My flight to Vegas arrives around 8pm. Figured it would take me until around 8:30pm to get a rental car. What is the drive like between LAS and St George? I'll be tired and my night vision isn't great. Is it mostly flat, straight desert road? Or is it twisty mountain roads? (could be tense at night). Or do you mostly find twisty mountain roads on the way from St George to Springdale / Zion?


The drive from Vegas to St. George is largely flat and straight. There's a curvy section where you drive through some gorges which is rather nice to see during the day, but nothing twisty. The twisty part comes after St. George.


Q2) In mid-May, how early can I arrive to Zion? Is it open 24/7 like many National Parks or is it gated (locked)? My friend suggested getting up early morning in Springdale, heading all the way to the east, then driving the scenic route westward--maybe doing the Canyon Overlook trail on the way. This way I'd catch the right shadows.


Zion is open 24/7. However, the problem you'll have is that from April through the summer private cars aren't allowed in the park for touring. You have to use the park shuttle, which starts operating at 6:30 a.m. This really isn't a problem since the shuttle operates fairly frequently and stops at all the major trailheads.

My wife and I took a similar trip in May 2007 (http://www.ericandleandra.com/photos/swnationalparks/index.html) - we flew into Vegas and hit Zion, Bryce, and the north rim of the Grand Canyon, and then Horseshoe Bend over 4 days. The Horseshoe bend was great, but that bit of driving just seemed to go on forever!

We spent one night in St.George (unmemorable), and the rest of the nights we spent at smaller inns/B&B's. I can get you their names if you are interested in those sorts of places.

Here's my latest plan:
A friend suggested focusing my time in Zion, staying in Springdale.. He even thought Bryce would be too much of a stretch for the short time I'd be in Utah.

How long do you have in Utah? Bryce would probably take most of the day from Springdale (~2-3 hours each way if I remember correctly?), so if you only have two nights then it would be a lot of driving.



I could stay Friday night at a Marriott near the airport, but then it would be a 3 hour drive the next morning to Zion. By driving directly to St George, I figure I'm at at least 2 hours ahead the next day.


That's how we did it and it worked well for us - an early start at Zion is well worth it.


Q2) In mid-May, how early can I arrive to Zion? Is it open 24/7 like many National Parks or is it gated (locked)? My friend suggested getting up early morning in Springdale, heading all the way to the east, then driving the scenic route westward--maybe doing the Canyon Overlook trail on the way. This way I'd catch the right shadows.



I think we got to town a little before 8a. We wanted to hike up the river, so we stopped for the boots in town (well worth it, both for grip and warmth in the water) and then straight up the canyon. The hike in the morning was nice with relatively few people, and the crowds were definitely growing on the way back out.

Thanks edog.

How long do you have in Utah? Bryce would probably take most of the day from Springdale


Only 2 nights in Utah. One in St George (arrive late Friday night) and one in Springdale (Saturday). So one full day and most of a second day for exploring Utah. We expect to drive back to Vegas before sunset on a Sunday. Didn't realize Bryce was that far away.

Thinking of doing a half-day in Utah on Sunday and possibly driving "directly" (via Vegas is the only way I know) to Death Valley for a possible overnight in Beatty, NV. But that may be pushing it.

Thanks edog.

Thinking of doing a half-day in Utah on Sunday and possibly driving "directly" (via Vegas is the only way I know) to Death Valley for a possible overnight in Beatty, NV. But that may be pushing it.

Everytime we cram extra stuff in we end up spending too much time in the car- Zion would be great for a 1.5 day stint.

Everytime we cram extra stuff in we end up spending too much time in the car- Zion would be great for a 1.5 day stint.

Good point. Thanks again for the advice. Great pictures by the way. Thanks for posting the link.

We may do a one very-long-day trip to Death Valley mid-week then rather than adjacent to the Utah portion. Or not. Might get more value (and less driving like you said) if we limit our other out-of-Vegas day trips to closer locations like Mt Charleston, Red Rock Canyon, Valley of Fire State Park, etc.

A colleague I respect strongly suggests I spend most of my non-Vegas trip time in Zion. He thinks a day's not enough and suggests up to 3 days but no less than 2. And to skip Death Valley in May as too hot to enjoy. And that its features are too far from each other.

Well, here's my thing:

1) It kills me to be so close to DVNP and not try to see even one small, focused portion of it. I once flew out to Palm Springs, CA for a conference. Knowing it would be a full week, I only had a single afternoon to explore on the day I flew in. Still, I was determined to see some of Joshua Tree National Park. Must have been 2pm before I arrived at JTNP. Did around 3 shorter trails (including a very cool little ghost town) and drove to my Palm Springs hotel in the dark. Going by my colleague's logic, I never should have done this. But it gave me enough of a preview to: 1) tick it off my Nat'l Park list and 2) know whether or not I might want to return in the future (answer: yes!)

2) Can't I do a focused very long day trip to DVNP if I leave early am from Vegas (like perhaps 5am or 6am)? Lots of driving. But couldn't I limit what I see to, for example:

* Rhyolite ghost town (or skip if it's not sufficiently impressive; love ghost towns, but I'd rather see at least some of DVNP--willing to skip this)
* One sand dune--perhaps Mesquite Flat Sand Dunes
* Keane Wonder Mine
* Furnace Creek Visitor's Center
* Harmony Borax Works
* Zabriskie Point
* Badlands (only if I felt I had enough time left; probably would need to skip it)
* Then head back to Vegas on 190

Can I do the above itinerary in a day? Anything I should skip or add? I can skip hiking if need be--not that I'd be doing trails that would be longer than, say, 20 to 30 mins). If I left Vegas at 5am, how late might I be returning?

3) Is it really too oppressively hot to visit in mid-May? Are we talking 120 degree temps? And even if so, if I left early enough, couldn't I beat the heat by doing any out-of-car stuff by noon?

Although my colleague strongly suggests I have DVNP a miss, I really don't know when I'll be back. I keep wanting to see Yosemite, Lassen Volcanic National Park, and Yellowstone. My wife and I like to take trips in May, but those three NPs seem like better bets in the summer.

Here's my itinerary so far:

* Friday night. Arrive LAS airport ~8:00pm. Get rental car and drive to St George for overnight stay.

* Saturday morning: leave hotel by 7am at the latest (possibly 6am) for a full day in Zion.

* Saturday night: not sure. We have a reservation at a Best Western in Springdale, just a few miles outside of Zion's gate, but it's $135 including tax. Seems awfully expensive for a BW and I don't have BW points. If we want to do a half day in Zion on Sunday, we should probably eat the cost and stay in Springdale. But we could also leave Zion very late on Saturday and drive back to St George (cheaper hotels) or even Mesquite, NV. Saturday is too expensive for LV hotels (prices 2-3X of mid-week) for me to justify that.

* Sunday: We'll have either overnighted in Springdale and do an additional half-day in Zion. Or if I've felt I'd seen enough of Zion for a good intro to the place, we could head directly back to Vegas to start our Vegas portion. Or we could head directly to the Motel 6 Beatty, NV. Long drive though after a full day in Zion...

If we check into Vegas on Sunday, I figure we could rest a bit. Then head to DVNP early am on a Monday or a Tuesday and expect to return from DVNP after dark. I think that's feasible. Do you all? Assuming I realize I'll only be able to see a small, focused portion of DVNP. Again, I'm ok with a limited stay at a NP. On a trip to Utah, I spent about 1.5 days in Canyonlands Islands in the Sky. A pal and I had only one morning left on the trip before having to drive to Grand Junction for the flight home. So we spent just one morning in Arches. It was a bit rushed, but I was able to see enough of it to get a feel for it. And determined I'd rather go back to Canyonlands and its various areas than Arches. I don't need to go back to Arches. Lot less people in Canyonlands and more interesting hikes.

Please tell me it's not a waste, or too ambitious, to see DVNP even if I only have one *full* day.

Finally, what about the idea of doing a more punishing, longer drive from Springdale to Beatty, NV, say, on Sunday. Then getting an even earlier start in DVNP on Monday morning? Part of me realizes it'll be awfully tiring (and almost wasteful / frustrating since we'd have to pass through LV to get to LV). But once we were done with DVNP and got to Vegas, I could focus my full attention on enjoying and exploring Vegas stuff.

Struggling to figure out what's optimal and want to put this to rest. I'm likely making it more difficult than it needs to be, but I'm trying to figure out what's the most efficient itinerary here. Mostly, I feel I'll regret skipping DVNP if I spend too much time in Zion. Again, not planning to go back to LV for quite a while. I'd likely be hitting northern California and beyond on my next trip Out West.

Hope this makes sense. I'd really like to see both Zion and DVNP. But I don't want to short change my wife on seeing all the Vegas things. She's less of an outdoor person than I am. We'd leave Vegas the following Friday morning. Sunday to Thursday would = 5 nights, but only 4 full days. Or only 3 full days in Vegas if we use one day to see DVNP.

I've thought so much about this that I can't look at it objectively any longer. Help! :-)

You obviously want to to do it, so do it. People give their opinions based on what they would prefer. No one has said "don't do it, you'll be late, miss your flight and have a horrible trip". They give their opinions of it not being enough time.

Most people would rather relax and soak in their vacation; if you'd rather not and want to see everything possible, then do it.

...and stop freakin stressing about "I can't justify $XX here so may drive to XX". Decide what you'd enjoy most and do it.

The money you're about to spend on gas alone will kill you... :cool:

...and stop freakin stressing about "I can't justify $XX here so may drive to XX". Decide what you'd enjoy most and do it.

The money you're about to spend on gas alone will kill you... :cool:

Thanks Lands. You're right! I do know this: no matter how I arrange things, I'm going to have a fabulous trip. It'll all work out. And yeah, money is money. Not that big of a deal.

Would still like to hear peoples' experiences with taking a day trip to Death Valley out of Vegas. That's how I'm likely to do it if I go to DVNP at all.

Another possibility is extending my flight home. We fly home Friday morning. But I don't see why I couldn't get a Sunday flight home and table DVNP for Friday and Saturday.

Would still like to hear peoples' experiences with taking a day trip to Death Valley out of Vegas. That's how I'm likely to do it if I go to DVNP at all.

I recommend going out the night before and staying near Death Valley. That'll enable you to get an early start on sightseeing without having to get up ridiculous early, drive a long way first, or both. Views in the parks are often more dramatic in the morning and the afternoon, i.e. not around mid-day when the sun is straight overhead. Also, the crowds are fewer and the temps are cooler.

Same wisdom for Zion. Driving out and back from Vegas in one day is tough because it's 3 ~ 3.5 hours in the car each way depending on traffic and construction delays. That doesn't leave much time for sightseeing. If you're on a short schedule, drive out the night before so you can be rested for sightseeing in the morning. Also, I usually spend the extra money to stay in Springdale, right next to the park. Yes, motels in St. George are much cheaper, but to me it's a false economy because the extra 2 hours a day I spend driving back and forth are worth more to me than the typical difference in motel costs. As always, YMMV.

2) Can't I do a focused very long day trip to DVNP if I leave early am from Vegas (like perhaps 5am or 6am)? Lots of driving. But couldn't I limit what I see to, for example:

* Rhyolite ghost town (or skip if it's not sufficiently impressive; love ghost towns, but I'd rather see at least some of DVNP--willing to skip this)
* One sand dune--perhaps Mesquite Flat Sand Dunes
* Keane Wonder Mine
* Furnace Creek Visitor's Center
* Harmony Borax Works
* Zabriskie Point
* Badlands (only if I felt I had enough time left; probably would need to skip it)
* Then head back to Vegas on 190

Can I do the above itinerary in a day? Anything I should skip or add? I can skip hiking if need be--not that I'd be doing trails that would be longer than, say, 20 to 30 mins). If I left Vegas at 5am, how late might I be returning?


I think it's do-able. You've picked the sites that are geographically close to each other. If you come in via Beatty and leave via 190, you wouldn't have to backtrack. Some of the sites you have listed are drive through or simply view points, so not much time spent wandering around. The sand dunes can take more time than you think. It's time consuming to walk around on all that sand. It's unfortunate you won't be there for sunrise when the dunes are at their best.

Make sure you have some meals packed, plenty of water, and keep the gas tank full.

Some pictures.

www.pbase.com/escog/deva

In Death Valley, I would suggest Stovepipe Wells.

http://www.escapetodeathvalley.com/

it is cheaper than furnace Creek and the service seems to be better under the new management.

2) Can't I do a focused very long day trip to DVNP if I leave early am from Vegas (like perhaps 5am or 6am)? Lots of driving. But couldn't I limit what I see to, for example:

* Rhyolite ghost town (or skip if it's not sufficiently impressive; love ghost towns, but I'd rather see at least some of DVNP--willing to skip this)
* One sand dune--perhaps Mesquite Flat Sand Dunes
* Keane Wonder Mine
* Furnace Creek Visitor's Center
* Harmony Borax Works
* Zabriskie Point
* Badlands (only if I felt I had enough time left; probably would need to skip it)
* Then head back to Vegas on 190

Can I do the above itinerary in a day? Anything I should skip or add? I can skip hiking if need be--not that I'd be doing trails that would be longer than, say, 20 to 30 mins). If I left Vegas at 5am, how late might I be returning?


I agree with the poster's above -- you obviously want to do this. Do it. It will be a long day, but definitely doable. I like a packed agenda!

Consider adding to or altering your itinerary to include this after the Harmony Borax works:

-- Go to Badwater. I think it's fascinating and worth the extra few miles.
-- Start back to Furnace creek but take the one way Artist's Drive loop. It's best in the afternoon.
-- Start your trip back to Vegas on 190, but hit Zabriskie point in the late afternoon.
-- Time it right so that you can make it to Dante's View for sunset. Great vistas and at elevation so not as hot. The road is a 13 mile drive off of 190 but not a lot of curves until the last mile or so.
-- Back to Vegas -- count on about 2-2 1/2 hours drive back.

Here are a few pics from Badwater, Artist's Drive, and Dante's View (http://illuminante.posterous.com/death-valley-days) from last month that we did all in an afternoon from about 2-6pm. With your later sunset, plenty of time for Zabriskie point, too.

Have a great time!

I agree with the poster's above -- you obviously want to do this. Do it. It will be a long day, but definitely doable. I like a packed agenda!


Thanks. Consider it done! I can and will do this. :-) Appreciate your itinerary additions. Also decided a single, very full day was enough for a first visit to Zion. Will leave my St George Hotel early (5 or 6am) and do the long drive to Vegas at the end of the day but before it gets dark. Am going to stay in Vegas for a few nights, then do Death Valley in a single day, again, leaving very early AM (probably ~6am).


Consider adding to or altering your itinerary to include this after the Harmony Borax works:

-- Go to Badwater. I think it's fascinating and worth the extra few miles.
-- Start back to Furnace creek but take the one way Artist's Drive loop. It's best in the afternoon.
-- Start your trip back to Vegas on 190, but hit Zabriskie point in the late afternoon.
-- Time it right so that you can make it to Dante's View for sunset. Great vistas and at elevation so not as hot. The road is a 13 mile drive off of 190 but not a lot of curves until the last mile or so.
-- Back to Vegas -- count on about 2-2 1/2 hours drive back.

Here are a few pics from Badwater, Artist's Drive, and Dante's View (http://illuminante.posterous.com/death-valley-days) from last month that we did all in an afternoon from about 2-6pm. With your later sunset, plenty of time for Zabriskie point, too.
Have a great time!

Beautiful photos! Thanks for posting the link.

Had a terrific late May trip. Thanks to all who contributed ideas and opinions. Is there any way to post photos here on Flyertalk?

Long story short:

* Death Valley is absolutely doable in a day, well worthwhile, and don't miss badwater! Lucked out and it was no hotter than 85 degrees--and that was at Badwater around 1pm! I rolled the dice and won.

* If you like ghost towns, absolutely take the northern route into DVNP via Beatty, NV and see Rhyolite

* Zion - wow! Only able to do Upper and Lower Emerald Pools, Angel's Landing, and Riverside walk. Want to return. The Emerald Pool trails made my wife think she might like hiking after all.

Day 1 (Fri):
Arrived LAS around 8pm. Picked up rental car. Drove to St. George, Utah for overnight stay at Courtyard by Marriott (priceline bid price of... think it was only $65). Clean, quiet hotel. The drive from LAS to St. George was a stressful, white-knuckled experience for me. Poor night vision, I was exhausted from the flight, and going through the gorge right before St. George was tense. But I made the right choice logistically. Would "try to forget" the experience and do it again in future for sake of itinerary. Or arrive in LV earlier in the day, trying to reach St George before dark.

Day 2 (Sat):
Got up really early and drove to the Zion NP entrance at Springdale. Only an hour drive and pleasant. Think we passed through the gate around 7:15am. The "guard shack" wasn't even open and accepting money. Didn't have to take the shuttle in from town (there are two shuttle lines--one from town and one through the park). We drove directly to the Visitor's Center. Did the lower and upper emerald pool trails. Magnificent. And we did the hike early and quickly enough that we encountered zero hikers on the way up. Not bad for a Saturday in May. We spent 20 minutes chilling out at the Upper Pool before any other hikers arrived. It doesn't take long to get to the Lower Pool. Huge reward for a very small investment of time. My wife is not a hiker. But the beauty made her change her mind.

Hung out at the Lodge for quite some time (free but slow wi-fi) and ate lunch at the restaurant upstairs. Killer view but doesn't open until 11:30am. I recommend the Bratwurst and kraut. Since Germans were the largest non-native population in the park, I guess they can't get away with offering lousy brats.

Did the Riverside Walk around 1pm. That was a nightmare--like negotiating crowded NYC foot traffic. Couldn't enjoy it. Note to self and others: pick the trail you think you'll most enjoy and do it first thing in the morning, e.g. as early as you can manage. Unless your idea of hiking includes crowds.

We'd both like to return to Zion and perhaps stay in the Lodge. Spent a second night at the Courtyard (this one on points from the Marriott Premier Rewards card).

Day 3 (Sun):
Got up early and parked at the Zion NP Visitor's Center by around 7am. Did Angel's Landing while my wife hung out at the Lodge. I was alone except for one German--and he chickened out 15 mins from the summit. There were others at the top, and a fair amount of hikers going up while I was descending. It's listed as a 4 hour hike. I did it in 2.5 hours by power walking up switchbacks and jogging down them. Really pushed myself. Guess my time on the treadmill paid off. I found the heights no more scary than the Grandfather Trail at Grandfather Mountain in North Carolina. If you can do that (the one with ladders and chains), you can do Angel's Landing. Ate lunch again at the upstairs restaurant in the Lodge. Which, by the way, isn't much more expensive than the crappy self-service cafe.

On the way back to Las Vegas (between Springdale and St. George), we stopped at Grafton Ghost Town. It's a very short drive from the main road in Springdale. Probably 15 mins out of your way. Not very impressive (only a few buildings), but in a very pretty setting. Worth a stop because it's so close to the main road. Would have been a terrible disappointment if I'd driven hours to get there.

Fast forward to Tuesday, am.

Day 5 (Tues). Checked out of our LV hotel super early (5:00am?) and took the northern route to Death Valley NP via Beatty, NV. Probably took about 2 hours to get to Rhyolite Ghost Town. Gassed-up in Beatty. Gas in DVNP (Furnace Creek) was around two dollars more per gallon @ $5.50 a gallon).

Here are the stops we made:

* Somewhere between LV and Beatty, NV there's a turn-off (not sure where it was exactly) for a side-trip to Area 51. Figured that would have taken too much time out of our DVNP day, for too little value (what, just to see a Deadly Force Authorized sign and some kooky tacky UFO gift shops?), so we gave it a miss.

* Rhyolite Ghost Town. Coolest ghost town I've ever been to hands down. Temp was around 55 degrees F (I think Rhyolite is at an elevation of around 3500 ft). There's a bank building, a mercantile, a school, a train station, and a few other buildings. All masonry. Most ghost towns have only foundations remaining.

* The northern entrance to DVNP is an unmanned pay station. And the machine wasn't even working. "Follow instructions on screen" it said. The screen was dead / off.

* The Devil's Cornfield. Just a pull off. Neat but I wasn't impressed. Worth seeing though because it's on the way to the Sand Dunes.

* Mesquite Flat Sand Dunes (just before the town of Stovepipe Wells). Easy access to the dunes--looked like the Sahara! We hiked out for around 30 mins or so. Incredible. Want to return. It was only ~72 degrees, so pretty pleasant. This may have been around 7:30am.

* Salt Creek Interpretive Trail--we backtracked, heading toward Furnace Creek. This is a short (1/2) boardwalked trail. Pretty and we saw pupfish in the stream. The dirt road is crap if you're in an economy/compact rental car like we were (take it slow--quite bumpy) but doable.

* Harmony Borax Works. Very cool / a must visit. Short loop walk around the Borax Works.

* Furnace Creek ... Ranch? The non-fancy place. Had a quick hot dog lunch in the saloon. Visitor's Center was closed for refurbishment (there was a trailer for a temporary one, but we gave it a miss). Big disappointment because I wanted to learn more about DVNP through the Visitor's Center. Still couldn't have been more than ~78 degrees.

* Badwater. Wow! "Just do it." This was my wife's favorite part of the day. We walked out onto the salt flats--which look all the world like a vast expanse of frozen lake. Again, it was only 85 degrees and this was between noon and 1pm. Could have been 110 F in late May but it wasn't.

We skipped Artist's Drive / Point--wasn't sure where the entrance was (it's a one-way loop). But you can see the nice coloration of the rock from the road.

Had planned to do the Devil's Golf Course but it turned out to be one of those long bumpy-as-hell dirt roads that suck to drive when you're in an economy/compact rental car. So we gave that a miss.

* Zabriskie Point--gorgeous! Stopped by on our way back to Vegas. Looks like you can walk out on the (otherworldly) landscape. But we wanted to get back to Vegas.

We were probably back at our hotel no later than 4pm--possibly earlier.

Would love to go back to DVNP and see Scotty's Castle, the crater (whose name escapes me), and the larger sand dunes. Wondering what there is to do on the Western side of DVNP. There was no time for that this trip. Would not have wanted to include Scotty's Castle in a day trip given all the other things we saw, but I suppose it's possible if: 1) you got up crazy early like we did and 2) you didn't mind arriving back in LV after 7pm or later.

Thanks again to all for the help.

Awesome recap. Glad you had a great time.

Would love to see pictures. Just post them to Flickr or similar site and give link here.

I agree, Zion is a gem. I also love Death Valley, and there is plenty to see for a return trip.

FYI, Area 51 (Groom Lake) is nowhere near Beatty. In fact, it's in a different direction from Vegas, up Hwy. 93, going towards Ely. And not open to the public. There may be signs pointing to military property to the east of Hwy. 95. But Area 51 is many miles to the east, on the other side of what was one the nuclear weapon test area (and I believe currently used to store nuclear waste). Maybe there was a UFO gift shop or some such. Names are floated around. You made the right choice.

I agree, Zion is a gem. I also love Death Valley, and there is plenty to see for a return trip.

FYI, Area 51 (Groom Lake) is nowhere near Beatty. In fact, it's in a different direction from Vegas, up Hwy. 93, going towards Ely. And not open to the public. There may be signs pointing to military property to the east of Hwy. 95. But Area 51 is many miles to the east, on the other side of what was one the nuclear weapon test area (and I believe currently used to store nuclear waste). Maybe there was a UFO gift shop or some such. Names are floated around. You made the right choice.

Correct, I've been to area51 last year. You need to drive north of Vegas (HW93 + HW375 aka the extraterrestrial highway) to Rachel. That's basically a trailer park with a diner called the little ale'inn. From Vegas it takes about 2h30min to drive to Rachel. There are also 2 dust roads you can take to get close to area51. The road just north of Rachel leads to the black gate entrance, the 13mile dust road south of Rachel leads to the famous warning signs with the cammo dudes. No gate here but if you go beyond the signs you get arrested.
I actually made a small vid about our are51 visit on youtube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_w0330ma6s

Sorry to have hijacked this thread ;-)