Religious Travelers - Gap in kosher market?

I live in a predominantly Jewish area but I see very few Jewish Indian eating places.

I was just wondering whether this is due to a lack of demand (taste of curries/kebabs not favoured by Jewish community)? Or just never been thought of?

Could there be a demand for the Lahore nan-kebab (eg www.kebabishoriginal.co.uk)?

What are Jewish dietary laws regarding non-Jews working in a restaurant? Would food still be Kosher if non-Jews prepared it?

Just wondered.

Your location is given as London.

I know of at least two Indian kosher restaurants in London, both of which are quite good. Matancherry in Golders Green Road has Kedassia kashrus, and Kavanna in Vivian Avenue. There is also Beit HaMadras in Brent Street which we found disappointing. I think there is another place also in Brent Street.

Moses-Tandoor is quite authentic. We get their bhajis and pakoras for kiddushim sometimes, and they're always the first item to dissapear. They can also make other Indian delicacies that are not on published menu, including some fried sweets and corriander chutney.

"another one on Brent St." I presume you're talking about Biryani Express, though I haven't tried them yet. (For some reason, I thought they're under the same ownership as Moses Tandoor?)

But there are two types of eating places. the posh 'tandoori' restaurants and the cafe type where the taxi drivers hang out, where the food is half the cost and twice and good and where they specialise in freshly grilled meats and nan. that's probably where the gap exists. Places like Kebabish Original or the slightly up market Tayyab in Whitechapel.

I think that the gap in the market is to be able to offer kosher food of high quality, and not sold at exorbitant prices.

Nisan is the month where food (kosher lepesach food) reaches peaks, while some of these products should not be more expensive than a percentage of it. (like sugar, salt, etc)

Moses-Tandoor is quite authentic. We get their bhajis and pakoras for kiddushim sometimes, and they're always the first item to dissapear. They can also make other Indian delicacies that are not on published menu, including some fried sweets and corriander chutney.

"another one on Brent St." I presume you're talking about Biryani Express, though I haven't tried them yet. (For some reason, I thought they're under the same ownership as Moses Tandoor?)

Biryani Express never opened, and it's now being refurbished as a kitchen fittings shop, or something like that.

Just catching up on kosher indian restaurants in London... Does anyone know if there's a place to get Dosai? those filled crepe like the one you get at Madras Mahal in NY?

Just catching up on kosher indian restaurants in London... Does anyone know if there's a place to get Dosai? those filled crepe like the one you get at Madras Mahal in NY?

Please excuse my ignorance but does a purely vegetarian restaurant still require kosher certification? If not there are plenty of Indian vegetarian places serving dosas.

I know of at least two Indian kosher restaurants in London, both of which are quite good. Matancherry in Golders Green Road has Kedassia kashrus, and Kavanna in Vivian Avenue. There is also Beit HaMadras in Brent Street which we found disappointing. I think there is another place also in Brent Street.
So first you say you know of at least two kosher Indian restaurants in London, and then go on to mention three...? ;)

I (and most of our friends) think Beit Hamadras is the best of the lot, but I guess it's a matter of taste.

Kavanna has closed down by the way...

Well, he does say "at least" two.... The other place in Brent Street never opened. And I agree that Bet HaMadras is the best place - but you need to wait for one of their Half Price or Two For One offers, otherwise it's a bit pricey. They'll give you a 241 voucher for your birthday if you register on their web site.

BTW, we've been to Yum Yum a couple of times since it was reincarnated and it was really good. Seven of us went there yesterday for lunch - food was excellent and plentiful and the kids loved it. Total bill with soft drinks was under £90 and we were all totally stuffed - luckily, 'cos my friends flew back to Washington in the afternoon (business class on United) and none of them got their kosher meals.

Well, he does say "at least" two.... The other place in Brent Street never opened. And I agree that Bet HaMadras is the best place - but you need to wait for one of their Half Price or Two For One offers, otherwise it's a bit pricey. They'll give you a 241 voucher for your birthday if you register on their web site.

BTW, we've been to Yum Yum a couple of times since it was reincarnated and it was really good. Seven of us went there yesterday for lunch - food was excellent and plentiful and the kids loved it. Total bill with soft drinks was under £90 and we were all totally stuffed - luckily, 'cos my friends flew back to Washington in the afternoon (business class on United) and none of them got their kosher meals.
Sounds like it's time to have a 'kosher restaurants in London' thread ;)

There is also a superb kosher Indian in Paris, called Darjeeling

http://www.darjeeling-ontable.com/restaurant/index.html

I think it's far better than either of the places in London...

Please excuse my ignorance but does a purely vegetarian restaurant still require kosher certification? If not there are plenty of Indian vegetarian places serving dosas.

Strictly vegetarian still requires kosher certification. There are many potential kosher issues with vegetarian food.

A few are:

Grape derived ingredients that are non-kosher (but strictly vegetarian
Kosher requires a much stricter standard of checking for insect infestation than most vegetarian establishments
Ingredients processed oin equipment used for non-kosher products can be renedered non-kosher while remaining vegetariam
Some foods are only kosher when the Rabbi was directly involved in the processing (such as turning on the oven)
There may be other process aids that create kosher issues but not vegetarian issues


Sorry for the long reply, but this gets asked a lot, so I figured its worth reviewing some of the details.

Some foods are only kosher when the Rabbi was directly involved in the processing (such as turning on the oven)

I never quite understood the requirement that a Jewish person turn on the stove? What's the rationale behind it?

Talking about food while pesach was just around the corner, are there any airlines (except maybe from LY) that serve kosher le'pesach KSML during chol hamo'ed? Are the lounges in TLV (DAN Lounge + LY King David Lounge) kosher le'pesach on chol hamo'ed?

I never quite understood the requirement that a Jewish person turn on the stove? What's the rationale behind it?

Two words, Pas Akum. The decree was instituted to prevent over familiarity. While that rationale may acc to some not apply in commercial establishments, nevertheless, a 'legal loophole' is to have a Jew do something in the baking process. Hence, throwing one piece of wood into the fire (or the appropiate modern equivalent) would render all the bread Pas Yisrael.

Talking about food while pesach was just around the corner, are there any airlines (except maybe from LY) that serve kosher le'pesach KSML during chol hamo'ed? Are the lounges in TLV (DAN Lounge + LY King David Lounge) kosher le'pesach on chol hamo'ed?

I was under the impression all/most KSML providers produced KLP meals.

Are the lounges in TLV (DAN Lounge + LY King David Lounge) kosher le'pesach on chol hamo'ed?You serious? these are kosher lounges so why on earth would they service chametz during Pesach?

Wow, I hadn't realized that there were any kosher Indian places. I had thought that the only option was pure veg restaurants. It's common for Halal Indian places to mistakenly call themselves Kosher.

Strictly vegetarian still requires kosher certification. There are many potential kosher issues with vegetarian food.

A few are:

Grape derived ingredients that are non-kosher (but strictly vegetarian
Kosher requires a much stricter standard of checking for insect infestation than most vegetarian establishments
Ingredients processed oin equipment used for non-kosher products can be renedered non-kosher while remaining vegetariam
Some foods are only kosher when the Rabbi was directly involved in the processing (such as turning on the oven)
There may be other process aids that create kosher issues but not vegetarian issues


Sorry for the long reply, but this gets asked a lot, so I figured its worth reviewing some of the details.

Most of these issues can be worked around if the restaurant wants you as a customer. However, inside knowledge of the laws would be a must.

Talking about food while pesach was just around the corner, are there any airlines (except maybe from LY) that serve kosher le'pesach KSML during chol hamo'ed? Are the lounges in TLV (DAN Lounge + LY King David Lounge) kosher le'pesach on chol hamo'ed?

They would have to be. Selling chametz publicly is illegal in Israel with or without the Rabbinut forcing you. The lounges would be under Airport Rabbinut supervision. This year the Mufti of Akko told Arabs not to sell chametz to Jews just to put the Israeli situation into perspective.

You may hear many bad things about the secular people in Israel but one thing is for certain everything is relative. I know people who visit Israel that think the seculars are more religious than the religious people back home!

Even, Rabbi Pesah Tzvi Frankel permitted milk powder and gelatin. Seen as a charedi fanatic from Jerusalem in the 1940s. Today, you would not believe the outrage that would be caused.

You serious? these are kosher lounges so why on earth would they service chametz during Pesach?

Not serving chametz does not render the lounge kosher Le'Pesach.
They would actually need to offer kosher le'pesach food, as well as kasher their cutlery in order to be able to eat there during chol hamo'ed.

Not serving chametz does not render the lounge kosher Le'Pesach.
They would actually need to offer kosher le'pesach food, as well as kasher their cutlery in order to be able to eat there during chol hamo'ed.

Sushi stores that are only under local rabbinut close for pesah. Not mehadrin but stam. Last time I checked the 3 million sephardim in Israel eat rice during pesah. Are they allowed to open? No, because of the ashkenazi minority has a custom not to eat rice. Maybe the rabbinut should close down all the restaurants that serve wine because nazirites are forbidden by Biblical law to drink wine. Some people forget how outrageously stringent rabbinut stam is.

This is almost heresy to suggest kosher lounges under rabbinate supervision would be allowed to be open without being kosher lepesah.

There is also a superb kosher Indian in Paris, called Darjeeling

http://www.darjeeling-ontable.com/restaurant/index.html

I think it's far better than either of the places in London...

With respect all of these retauranst serve a different type of food to the Lahori grill. If you only eat Kosher you would probably have not tried this type of food. This is the type of low cost establishment where taxi drivers go and where the food is always fresh (fast turnover) and tastes twice as good.

Food is one area where Pakistan beats India hands down :)

Two words, Pas Akum. The decree was instituted to prevent over familiarity. While that rationale may acc to some not apply in commercial establishments, nevertheless, a 'legal loophole' is to have a Jew do something in the baking process. Hence, throwing one piece of wood into the fire (or the appropiate modern equivalent) would render all the bread Pas Yisrael.

You certainly mean bishul akum. I certainly have no problem with pat palter.

Sushi stores that are only under local rabbinut close for pesah. Not mehadrin but stam. Last time I checked the 3 million sephardim in Israel eat rice during pesah. Are they allowed to open? No, because of the ashkenazi minority has a custom not to eat rice.

Actually the main issue is not rice but soya sauce (which is brewed from the combination of soya and wheat, and 100% chametz, unless you resort to those disgusting ersatz imitation soya sauce made by heimishe brands). In addition, not all sephardim eat rice. I reckon it's no more than 50% (probably less) sephardim who eat rice on pesach.

Sephardim don't eat sushi with soy sauce. We use that stuff in salads and only with a lot of pepper. We have a tradition from Moses that all sauces that are eaten with fish must be spicy. I have only met one sephardi that eats sushi with soy sauce but that is AFTER he mixes 2 parts wasabi and 1 part soy. Still, many rabbis consider him to be a infidel.

Your statistics are utter nonsense.

You certainly mean bishul akum. I certainly have no problem with pat palter.

Nope, I meant Pas Akum. Pas Palter is a kula, but isn't ideal (only in a place where Pas Yisroel is unavailable; on shabbos/y"t it's better to be machmir...). Bishul Akum only applies to something which is oleh al shulchan m'lochim. There's no clarification of what food it was.
However, this confusion has come about bc travellerK said oven and TWA884 said stove. Stove can mean oven, but oven can't mean stove ;)

Sof sof, turning on the oven helps for both Pas Akum and Bishul Akum.

[QUOTE=Shimon;16319501]Sephardim don't eat sushi with soy sauce. We use that stuff in salads and only with a lot of pepper. We have a tradition from Moses that all sauces that are eaten with fish must be spicy. I have only met one sephardi that eats sushi with soy sauce but that is AFTER he mixes 2 parts wasabi and 1 part soy. Still, many rabbis consider him to be a infidel.

Your statistics are utter nonsense.

Your comment is intriguing. Any source? Unless you are trying to inject some humor into this thread.
Either way, I wouldn't have gone so far as to say W9London was speaking "utter rubbish", as s/he was just estimating from personal experience.

But aren't we missing the point? To be KLP, the ingredients more than not be chametz, must actually be certified for Pesach (perhaps even check the rice thrice). It's a lot more work than just leaving out the soy sauce.

Anyway, to get this back on whatever topic it should be on, I just went to Mattancherry today and remembered how it's unique; it's the only kedasia bas'ri restaurant in London. Was good food as well, not too heavily spiced.

However, this confusion has come about bc travellerK said oven and TWA884 said stove. Stove can mean oven, but oven can't mean stove ;)

Let me share with you the reason for my question.

My CPA is an Orthodox (black kippah) gentleman whom I have known since college. To make a long story short, after he granted his wife the divorce (get) she wanted, he moved in with a Masorti convert. One day he had to leave a meeting early because he had to turn on the stove so that she could start cooking dinner. I never understood the reason for the rule. Now that I know, I find it ironic that he found it necessary to keep following it.

Let me share with you the reason for my question.

My CPA is an Orthodox (black kippah) gentleman whom I have known since college. To make a long story short, after he granted his wife the divorce (get) she wanted, he moved in with a Masorti convert. One day he had to leave a meeting early because he had to turn on the stove so that she could start cooking dinner. I never understood the reason for the rule. Now that I know, I find it ironic that he found it necessary to keep following it.
Wow! Not to be cynical, but I can see why his first wife wanted a divorce. He seems to have some issues. Tarti d'sasri: if she can't cook dinner, he can't live with her. But of course, I don't know the full story...

[QUOTE=W9London;16315725]You certainly mean bishul akum. I certainly have no problem with pat palter.

Nope, I meant Pas Akum. Pas Palter is a kula, but isn't ideal (only in a place where Pas Yisroel is unavailable; on shabbos/y"t it's better to be machmir...). Bishul Akum only applies to something which is oleh al shulchan m'lochim. There's no clarification of what food it was.
However, this confusion has come about bc travellerK said oven and TWA884 said stove. Stove can mean oven, but oven can't mean stove ;)

Sof sof, turning on the oven helps for both Pas Akum and Bishul Akum.



Your comment is intriguing. Any source? Unless you are trying to inject some humor into this thread.
Either way, I wouldn't have gone so far as to say W9London was speaking "utter rubbish", as s/he was just estimating from personal experience.

But aren't we missing the point? To be KLP, the ingredients more than not be chametz, must actually be certified for Pesach (perhaps even check the rice thrice). It's a lot more work than just leaving out the soy sauce.

Anyway, to get this back on whatever topic it should be on, I just went to Mattancherry today and remembered how it's unique; it's the only kedasia bas'ri restaurant in London. Was good food as well, not too heavily spiced.

Just a couple of points:

* There is at least one other Kedassia bessari place in London - the Kadimah in Stamford Hill. But you may argue that it doesn't qualify as a restaurant :eek:
* I think that Sefaradim hold that turning on the oven does not help for Pas Akum and Bishul Akum (elihasset - can you confirm?).

[QUOTE=sds1493;16320898]

Just a couple of points:

* There is at least one other Kedassia bessari place in London - the Kadimah in Stamford Hill. But you may argue that it doesn't qualify as a restaurant :eek:
* I think that Sefaradim hold that turning on the oven does not help for Pas Akum and Bishul Akum (elihasset - can you confirm?).
Well, it's more that I wasn't including Stamford Hill as London.
WRT Sefardim, is that bc it is an indirect action? Or do they hold that even stirring the pot doesn't help?

[QUOTE=FF;16323028]
WRT Sefardim, is that bc it is an indirect action? Or do they hold that even stirring the pot doesn't help?

For sefardim the requirement is putting the food on the fire (oven, stove or whatever else you want to call it). According to some Rabbis turning on the fire after the food is already there is adequate.

[QUOTE=sds1493;16320898]

Just a couple of points:

* There is at least one other Kedassia bessari place in London - the Kadimah in Stamford Hill. But you may argue that it doesn't qualify as a restaurant :eek:
* I think that Sefaradim hold that turning on the oven does not help for Pas Akum and Bishul Akum (elihasset - can you confirm?).

Depends if the owner is Jewish. We have kuolot.

Well, it's more that I wasn't including Stamford Hill as London.

Now now...I'm sure that even though it's not part of NW London, they'd still be considered Londoner's.... ;)

Sephardim don't eat sushi with soy sauce. We use that stuff in salads and only with a lot of pepper. We have a tradition from Moses that all sauces that are eaten with fish must be spicy. I have only met one sephardi that eats sushi with soy sauce but that is AFTER he mixes 2 parts wasabi and 1 part soy. Still, many rabbis consider him to be a infidel.

Now you know the second one.

(BTW the proper way is to dab wasabi on fish. Dissolving it in soysauce is only for goijin. It's as bad as dipping the rice side of sushi in soy sauce, as opposed to flipping it so only fish touches the soy sauce.)

Anyway, to get this back on whatever topic it should be on, I just went to Mattancherry today and remembered how it's unique; it's the only kedasia bas'ri restaurant in London. Was good food as well, not too heavily spiced.

Of course there is a mesora that all Kedassia approved establishments are verboten to erve anything spicy. ;)

Of course there is a mesora that all Kedassia approved establishments are verboten to erve anything spicy. ;)

Not quite. Actually Mattancherry are very obliging on this point. Tell them how you like it and they will make it very spicy or less spicy.