US Airways Dividend Miles (Pre-FlightFund Merger) - Uh oh. Hardball or truth?

http://www.pal1976.org/late.htm

Note the last sentence of the letter (just above the closing).

Man, this sucks. It's like riding the Titanic down. US had a great chance after BK to do things right and they just screwed them up...repeatedly.

Note what is supposed to be eliminated. Soon, no differnce between Ch. 7 and waht´s left after concessions and closings.

Remember the nice times, with Int´l FC when it was introduced? These were the days...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ITRADE:
http://www.pal1976.org/late.htm

Note the last sentence of the letter (just above the closing).</font>

I thought Ch 7 was something that gets forced by outsiders -- not something that a company files for voluntarily (even as a negotiating tactic.)

So if this proposal goes through, who will be de-icing the planes?

cockroaches

I think it may have to do with the union currently requiring licensed, certified mechanics to do a lot of stuff that could probably be done by someone less "skilled" and cheaper. This is just my educated guess though.

They should probably have proofread such an important letter. Notice the "there" instead of the "their."

My thought is the company is now trying to break the union, liquidate and reopen a new low fare airline based in the southeast/east . Rehire those former employees a lower wages, more efficient work rules to compete with the likes of Southwest, Jetblue and Airtran. jmtcw

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BWI2MCO97:
My thought is the company is now trying to break the union, liquidate and reopen a new low fare airline based in the southeast/east . Rehire those former employees a lower wages, more efficient work rules to compete with the likes of Southwest, Jetblue and Airtran. jmtcw</font>


Let me guess... will it be called Piedmont? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BWI2MCO97:
My thought is the company is now trying to break the union, liquidate and reopen a new low fare airline based in the southeast/east . Rehire those former employees a lower wages, more efficient work rules to compete with the likes of Southwest, Jetblue and Airtran. jmtcw</font>

If "they" liquidate someone else will be doing the reopening. They will no longer exist.

Breaking the unions might be part of what they're doing but they're taking an odd approach to it if they are.

I think that they're just incredibly desperate. The situation is very, very bad.

This was posted on the USAviation board:

"CWA, and all other US Airways unions, must accept management’s demands as written, no changes, no discussion, by Friday. Management wants only a “Yes” or “No” answer;
If any Union does not accept the demands as written, by Friday, US Airways will close down before Christmas (next Wednesday);...................."

And which employees, no matter how desparate, would sign on for such a thing?

Aside from assuming this is the kind of tactic being used all along, I must admit it was shocking to see in print unofficially ( second hand, from the union rep).

Changing work rules is really the whole basis of this round of proposed cuts. They cut salaries last time, now they're trying to change the rules under which they have to pay the (lower) hourly rates.

If Chapter 7 DOES happen, it would make for a really brief code-share alliance. In fact they would never serve a single UA/US code-shared customer.

That'll learn me to book transatlantic on a Chapter 11 airline. *sigh*.

I wonder how hard I'm going to have to beat BofA to get my money back on those tickets....

------------------
Saving the world, one clue at a time.

In this economy..and particularly their industry, I would have to say ANY job, even if it isn't that great, is better than NO job. Believe me, there aren't that many jobs out there, so I wouldn't throw it away unless I had something else lined up.

Hopefully, somehow, things will get worked out. There has got to be a way to get costs more soundly aligned and have a place where people would like to work (unions or not).

I told my wife for the first time that our award trip to Australia might be going bye-bye due to USAirways going chapter 7. She was not pleased... like others I've been playing it safe, not booking too much in terms of non-refundable, non-changable tickets. The flipside of course is this type of behavior helps hasten Chapter 7 (less revenue for USAirways) so it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy...

So should we hurry and book 1st class tickets to Europe? AT least if we have tickets they would be honored (by somoene else). I doubt our mile buckets will be.

[This message has been edited by Heinrich (edited 12-17-2002).]

For the first time, and after reading what is on usaviation, I am concerned that US will really go Chapter 7 because Bonner will pull the plug and sell off assets to recoup his investment. I guess the deelmakur was right. I see no way for US to survive unless the employees totally cave. Although stupid work rules like mechanics doing the push backs have to go, it looks like the aim is to totally break the unions. If it succeeds, the aftermath in terms of attitude will be poisonous.

I have 2 paid leisure trips left this year including one right after Christmas to take the kids to see their relatives. Business trips I could handle because I would be covered by my employer or the credit card, but rebooking now for Christmas would be a disaster.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Heinrich:
So should we hurry and book 1st class tickets to Europe? AT least if we have tickets they would be honored (by somoene else). I doubt our mile buckets will be.

[This message has been edited by Heinrich (edited 12-17-2002).]</font>

Award tickets are rarely honored by another airline.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ClueByFour:
That'll learn me to book transatlantic on a Chapter 11 airline. *sigh*.

I wonder how hard I'm going to have to beat BofA to get my money back on those tickets....</font>

Shouldn't it be a no-brainer? If the service isn't rendered BofA should give you back the money. Regardless of what the buffoons in CCY say "non-refundable" isn't the same as "charitable conbtribution".

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by biggs:
...
I have 2 paid leisure trips left this year including one right after Christmas to take the kids to see their relatives. Business trips I could handle because I would be covered by my employer or the credit card, but rebooking now for Christmas would be a disaster.</font>

I have both a premium award (to SJU) and revenue tix (to CDG) booked for travel over the next two weeks. Already started looking at options -pretty much things to do around the house- as this ain't looking pretty.

And while agree that some of the union work rules need relief, ultimatedly it is the management team's incredible blunders that brought upon this, IMO.

It's fairly simple. The smart money left. Warren Buffett took his lumps. Bonderman took a closer look, and passed, leaving the way open for Boss Hogg from Alabama. Even Wolf figured out the party was over, and handed the keys to "Seagull", a mid manager, at best, with no vision. They're burning caah faster than they can replace it, and, they are so screwed up they can't even get their RJ project going (of course the passengers are clamoring for these sardine cans and their teenage pilots anyway....not). Just to top it off, they have cemented their marketing link with the creators of the largest airline bankruptcy in history. The employee owners over there, who weren't particularly accomodating before the place went off the rails, can certainly be counted on to provide the complete travel experience. LOL.

Let's all take a deep breath here.

I saw Bonner or Bronner or whatever his name is on tv last night and he wasn't talking like a guy itching to pull the trigger.

As others have pointed out, yes, the website is coming together. The planes are full or nearly so. The restructuring is under way. The pilots have come on board. And the unions can be dealt with.

The big question is the management. I'm not at all sure they "get it" yet, but they might.

I went through the first bankruptcy with CO in '81 or '82. 10,000 guys hit the streets on Saturday. 3000 went back on Monday at $ 7.00/hr. Believe me, there are thousands of people out there who will work for McWages because they need a job and for the flight bennies.

In reality, we don't need mechanics at $35.15/hr (United's figure) to push a plane back or wave the red wands. A whole lot of the jobs can be handled by unskilled or semi-skilled people who can be trained and who will be enthusiastic - look at Southwest.

The people that really need skills (engineers, programmers), well, you have to pay them the going rate - they have options. The pilots are necessary, but they really have very little in the way of transferrable skills - it's a Mexican standoff between them and the company. It's fly for a decent (but not extravagent) wage or go find another job.

You bet this is about breaking the unions. These union contracts were, for the most part, holdovers from the old deregulation days, and the reality is that an airline can't make money today with the old rules. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

In Chapter 11, you can unilaterally abrogate those agreements as are seen to be hindering the reconstruction of the company, all under legal rules. The union contracts and work rules are usually the first to go.

While I respect the comments of deelmakur and Tom Bascom and others, I just don't think the airline will be gone this Friday or anytime soon. Eventually, ALL companies go under - it's just a question of when rather than whether.

I'm letting myself open to charges of being a pollyanna (or worse) and being proven wrong very quickly. I'll come back on the board Monday and see if I'm right (the company cancelled my Friday trip - I'm flying NW on Thursday - nothing to do with US, just more convenient).

Meanwhile, I'm doing nothing with my miles except hold'em. And I have an Envoy trip scheduled for CDG in September - well, that one I'll wait and see. But I fully expect to be flying US the first week in January.


"Trust but verify" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by BigLar:
Let's all take a deep breath here.</font>

I don't disagree -- but I do think that the situation has never been worse and that the time for prudence is here.

If they get through this it will still be a very tough road.

I'm not worried about being stranded -- even if it happens I'll manage just fine. But I am being more careful about my exposure to financial loss, hassle factor (getting refunds, making alternative plans) and possibly losing, or at least having a tough time using, miles.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TomBascom:
If they get through this it will still be a very tough road.</font>

It will be tough - but for whom? I don't enjoy flyig with Southwest or ATA or Airtran, but they provide transportation and make money.

I suspect we (the flying public) have demanded them (the majors) into this position, and the management doesn't have the guts, brains, or imagination to find and easy way out - trust me; they always look for the easy way. The right way may be the right way, but its haaaaaaard! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

OTOH, we (the frequent flyers) represent a significant revenue stream for those airlines who do survive. I can't imagine AA or NW or CO or DL (forget UA) not salivating after us and our business. The currently accepted way of doing that is with FF programs, and FF programs do generate loyalty of a sort. They don't really care if we love'em, as long as we fly'em. And with free tix and upgrades, we can learn to love'em.

Summary: US may go under, but not all that soon. If (when) they do, we may lose some awards or they will get more expensive, but we will fly another airline, get comp'ed in, and still do OK. The US routes will be flown by someone. It's not the end of the world. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TomBascom:
I thought Ch 7 was something that gets forced by outsiders </font>


It can be either a voluntary (by debtor) or involuntary petition (by creditors). Its very risky and rare for a group of creditors to band together and force a 7. A Ch. 7 is a liquidation that is out of the control of the debtor. A Ch. 11 can also be used as a controlled liquidation, but by the debtor-in-possession.

Today's Charlotte Observer notes the story - and the spin US put on it (sounds like they're not willing to say that they've made the threat - I think they made the threat, and are trying to not scare pax, who are already scared due to Dr. Bronner's jacka**ed statements in the NYT a whle back). Here's the relevant excerpts, full story is at
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/business/4763137.htm

US Airways talks tough to unions
Restructuring requires additional concessions
TED REED
Staff Writer

US Airways is talking tough to its unions, demanding concessions as it prepares to submit a reorganization plan in bankruptcy court on Friday.

In talks Tuesday with the International Association of Machinists, the airline said it must remove mechanics from some jobs they now perform, such as de-icing and pushing back airplanes before departure. It was unclear who would perform those duties. The changes could result in 934 lost jobs out of 6,800, said an IAM Web site.

. . . .

In a Web site posting Tuesday, the Communications Workers of America said the airline threatened to shut down by Christmas if the union doesn't agree to give up work and cut benefits. The union later removed the posting.

US Airways dismissed the posting late Tuesday, saying: "Any discussion about alternatives to a successful reorganization is speculation not based on fact."

. . . .