US Airways Dividend Miles (Pre-FlightFund Merger) - Looks like US is cracking down on upgrade abuse

I've called for two upgrades over the past couple of days, and in both cases the agents wanted to know:
Star Code of upgrade certificate Expiration date of upgrade certificate


I was using Marriott DMUMH42's both times and both agents had to spend a little time confirming that such a certificate really existed. Hopefully this is a sign they're cracking down on the abuse of CS0007's and old SWU's (although that won't be a problem for much longer anyway since they're no longer issued).

Halleluja.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Beckles:
I've called for two upgrades over the past couple of days, and in both cases the agents wanted to know:
Star Code of upgrade certificate Expiration date of upgrade certificate


I was using Marriott DMUMH42's both times and both agents had to spend a little time confirming that such a certificate really existed. Hopefully this is a sign they're cracking down on the abuse of CS0007's and old SWU's (although that won't be a problem for much longer anyway since they're no longer issued).</font>

What's this Marriott upgrade?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dingo:
What's this Marriott upgrade?</font>

Come on dingo, I can't be doing all your work for you http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

DMUMH42 One-Way Upgrade (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum51/HTML/002557.html) thread

Good. Set the rules and then expect us all to know them and live by them. Seems fair to me. Good for US!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by geo1004:
Good. Set the rules and then expect us all to know them and live by them. Seems fair to me. Good for US!

</font>

Agreed. A memo musta come out from somewhere up high.

I've been nervously tracking my SAN flight for later this month - purposely booked the A321 flight to ensure upgrade chances.

12 F seats are filled and most of the "green" elite seats are open at this point.

"When you see lots of green, expect First Class cuisine."

(good luck!)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ITRADE:
12 F seats are filled and most of the "green" elite seats are open at this point.</font>

My wife(a Silver) checked in for her SFO-PHL flight with the Marriott coupon. The agent demanded to see her DM card, despite her having photo ID and her DM number was already on the boarding pass. She was on a full fare, upgraded in advance of the Silver window. Luckily, she had her DM card. The agent told her "the rules on the coupon clearly state that the holder must present their DM card."

She gave the coupon STAR code when confirming the upgrade a few weeks ago, and she was sure to present it for this particular segment.

Now, would it have been unreasonable for them to deny her the upgrade if she didn't have her DM card?? She had positive photo ID, they could verify her DM account number, and the coupon does not have any specific name on it.

Meanwhile, she got the I upgrade class of service bonus, the Silver bonus, the Double miles bonus AND the triple miles bonus for a total of about 12,000 points one way!

[This message has been edited by PHL (edited 06-06-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PHL:
Now, would it have been unreasonable for them to deny her the upgrade if she didn't have her DM card?? She had positive photo ID, they could verify her DM account number, and the coupon does not have any specific name on it.</font>

If the certificate states you have to have your DM card, then I don't really think it's unreasonable for the agent to enforce that rule. I do think the rule itself is odd though ...

I didn't notice that rule on the certs, but I always have my card with me anyway (and I'll make sure my girlfriend has hers when she checks in too using those certs).

Just asked me for the *code recently.

Though I think it's good that U is trying to "go by the books," I question how rigidly it will be enforced this plan year. I for one have been preferred for years. Therefore, when the kit came this year, I just put the new vouchers in a stack with the old ones and went about my business. It was not until reading a post on the Yahoo board, that I realized the systemwides were not upgradable at any time. I have called for upgrades since and the agents have not asked for star codes, etc. I think you may have a lot of peoeple that don't know there are "new" rules as it wasn't apparent aside from the fine print on the back. I think it would be pretty aweful if some booked a trip, told the agent they were using a systemwide, got it put through (not knowing they had to wait for their "window") and then got to the gate just to be told that they couldn't use it...... I'd be furious. My guess is there will be some leeway. Has anyone experienced this?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Uflyer:
Though I think it's good that U is trying to "go by the books," I question how rigidly it will be enforced this plan year. I for one have been preferred for years. Therefore, when the kit came this year, I just put the new vouchers in a stack with the old ones and went about my business. It was not until reading a post on the Yahoo board, that I realized the systemwides were not upgradable at any time. I have called for upgrades since and the agents have not asked for star codes, etc. I think you may have a lot of peoeple that don't know there are "new" rules as it wasn't apparent aside from the fine print on the back. I think it would be pretty aweful if some booked a trip, told the agent they were using a systemwide, got it put through (not knowing they had to wait for their "window") and then got to the gate just to be told that they couldn't use it...... I'd be furious. My guess is there will be some leeway. Has anyone experienced this?</font>

This may actually be another reason they are specifically asking for "Star Code" now. I have been asked in the past "What type of upgrade" I'd be using, but it was pecuilar that this week they specifically said "Star Code", in addition to asking for the expiration dates of course.

The one thing I don't like about the expiration date thing, is that you really need to know what it is then ... I have often called in the past from out and about without certificates at hand, so I might not have known the exact expiration date of the certs I'd use. I guess this is easy enough to get around though, I'll just put the certs in my wallet earlier than I normally do, it's a sacrifice worth making to crack down on the abuse IMO.

Probably true. Have you ever seen anyone turned away after being confirmed in F. I haven't. I have found that the type of upgrade you use is more important with the reservation staff than at airport check-in. The check-in staff always gets so swamped that they leave it up to res. handle the upgrade. On several occasions I had upgraded using a systemwide and the agent asked me if I wanted to use my regular upgrades instead. I thought that was pretty nice of them........

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Uflyer:
On several occasions I had upgraded using a systemwide and the agent asked me if I wanted to use my regular upgrades instead. I thought that was pretty nice of them........</font>

Shhh, don't say that too loudly ...

Hopefully that will be put to an end too, because that is just as important in stopping the abuse of old SWU's and CS0007's that has been suspected, check-in agents not collecting the proper cert (in part probably because in some cases they didn't know what they were supposed to be collecting).

The steps reservations are taking don't mean a thing if the check-in agents don't collect what is actually put in the records (presumably it's being put in, or it really is pointless) by reservations.

Oops. Sorry Becks!!!!!!!

That's a good point. Don't know if it's been changed, but as recent as a few months ago the exact type of upgrade was not put in your record. IT just came up G class. I don't know anyone in res. so I cannot verify........ good point though!

You all know someone in res ..... The type of upgrade is noted exactly in your record as well as any change fee or add collect, It's the busy, non caring agents at the airport who just doesn't care to collect what we note ( which causes these huge losses ). I have heard this first hand from airport furloughees now working in res and wondering when and if they'll get recalled.
Sorry...just a bit of venting today.

There still are several ways to bypass the DMW upgrade issue. One ask for an upgrade over the DM line and check in at a smaller airport. And two upgrade over the DM line and use a E-kiosk for your FC ticket. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

BWI97MCO,
I can appreciate that you want your company to make money, but I trust you can appreciate that a passenger (particularly leisure paying for own tickets) would appreciate if an airport agent did not charge them a change fee or add collect. Do you know if the company has documented that failure to collect change fees is a major reason why the company is having such financial problems? From what I have read the industry is having the issues more due to fare sales, labor costs, etc. etc. I have never read an article in the press that says failure to collect misc. fees etc. is a major reason for an airlines losses, etc. It seems that US almost makes more money on change fees then than tickets themselves? Also it seems that, and perhaps this is due to the environment with monitoring and all, that res agents are more genuinely interested in you paying that change fee than say a gate agent. Again this is nothing personal, and actually applies to all airlines not just US Airways, but from a customer perspective where cost is at least somewhat of an issue...it creates a situation where the customer looks at the ato agents as the "good guys" and res as the "bad guys." Do res and ato sort of know this internally, etc? Maybe res looks at people like me, who don't like the change fee, as the "bad guys," etc. which I can conceptually understand as well if the aim is so revenuecentric with each transaction even after the sale, etc. I just don't like paying that fee, anymore than I like paying $2 for a toll free phone call, etc. And no, buying Y fares is out of the question. I don't have several hundreds or thousands of dollars to spend on each trip. If I was a trust fund child, then heck, I would be glad to pay you those $100 fees, and I would do it by phone to make it faster, etc. I will also point out UA's policy, which all here likely know, which is to waive the fee for same day changes for 1P and 1K, and I think UA even with res is liberal about letting res waive this for 1K's. In fact, a UA executive posted in a chat session that any res agent can decide to waive the fee as a "business decision," etc. If I understand US Airways operations correctly, the agents who answer cannot waive it based on pax circumstances and only really can waive as a result of iregular operations, etc. Again on UA understanding is each agent can waive it themselves.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">My wife(a Silver) checked in for her SFO-PHL flight with the Marriott coupon. The
agent demanded to see her DM card, despite her having photo ID and her DM
number was already on the boarding pass. She was on a full fare, upgraded in
advance of the Silver window. Luckily, she had her DM card. The agent told her "the
rules on the coupon clearly state that the holder must present their DM card."</font>

I can think of at least two ticket counter agents in SFO that act as if their main job is to be rude enough to push passengers to fly with the 'evil empire'.

The change fees are a part of life in the business and are clearly stated in the fare rules of the product we sell. The fact that airport agents waive those fees only adds to our losses. Think about how many times those fees have increased in the past 5 years. I can remember ours being $50 then $75 . Perhaps corporate raises them to make up for what some are waiving. And by the way, res does have more than just irregular ops as a reason for waiving the fee and I will be the first one to stand up against a CSD ( res sup) to fight for a waiver if I feel its warranted, but 98% of the time I just enforce the rules for whatever you've purchased. Most of you have a pretty good idea by now that I love my job and my company, but I never give it to anybody on here for taking advantage of multiple mileage bonuses, using different upgrades etc because I know it's a big flaw in our system. I do recognize our problems and you can't imagine how grateful I am ( we are ) that many of you keep flying with US despite our lack of service to the west and beyond. Even with the worst of times now, I still keep the faith that it will all turnaround or else I will hop in my trusty VW camper and drive cross country spending what I make when I sell my house and 2 cars. I just hope it doesn't happen that way and that one day I will be able to thank each of you in person for your business !

[This message has been edited by BWI2MCO97 (edited 06-06-2002).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by jetsetter:
I will also point out UA's policy, which all here likely know, which is to waive the fee for same day changes for 1P and 1K, and I think UA even with res is liberal about letting res waive this for 1K's. </font>

Every airline has different policies ... different pluses and minuses ...

UA 1P (PremEx): Waives same day change fees for 1P's (is that really correct, I thought it was only 1K's), gives a whopping 4 500-mile upgrades every 10k miles and 2 one-way domestics each quarter for 10k miles. Upgrade rate on average ... based on anecdotal evidence I'd say 80% would be generous. Oh yeah, let's not forget the strict international upgrade policies.

US Gold: Does not waive change fees, gives 9 800-mile upgrades every 10k miles (average, 8+10 every 20k) and 2 SWU's each year and upgrade percentage is 95% (and that's being very conservative, I've only missed one advance upgrade in two years as a Gold, including 6 LGW flights). Only V-fares can not be upgraded internationally (and often V-fares are not even available anyway as the cheapest option for a desirable travel dates, my last CLT-LGW R/T was under $500 and not a V-fare). Wait, I didn't say anything bad about them ... I'll think of something eventually I suppose ...

I'll take the US program any day and twice on Sunday.

jetsetter, Delta seems to be doing quite well financially even with their "Simply Good Business" policy of strictly enforcing the rules. I appreciate change fees being waived as much as anyone, but I don't begrudge the airlines for upholding their side of the contract of carriage.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Beckles:
I'll take the US program any day and twice on Sunday.</font>But, but, but, what if you actually want to go somewhere? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Beckles:
UA 1P (PremEx): Waives same day change fees for 1P's (is that really correct, I thought it was only 1K's), gives a whopping 4 500-mile upgrades every 10k miles and 2 one-way domestics each quarter for 10k miles. Upgrade rate on average ... based on anecdotal evidence I'd say 80% would be generous. Oh yeah, let's not forget the strict international upgrade policies.</font>Beckles... UA PremExs and 1Ks can make same day changes gratis if the same fare code is available. PremExs must keep the same routing but 1Ks do not (but one must remind the agent).

PremExs do not receive 2 one-way domestics each quarter. Those HK-49s are solely given out to 1Ks.

"strict international upgrade policies"??? only a concern if upgrading w/ mileage. But then again, UA SWUs are transferrable, so "worth" much more- and I'm not even gonna bring up the fact of where you can go on those SWUs...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by chexfan:
PremExs do not receive 2 one-way domestics each quarter. Those HK-49s are solely given out to 1Ks. </font>

Well, that certainly weakens my argument http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">"strict international upgrade policies"??? only a concern if upgrading w/ mileage. But then again, UA SWUs are transferrable, so "worth" much more- and I'm not even gonna bring up the fact of where you can go on those SWUs...</font>

Notice I was specifically addressing PremEx versus Gold, PremEx's do not get SWU's, only 1K's, so they do have to contend with international mileage restrictions, or ride in coach ...

Of course, I know a 1K who claims he has to buy 500-mile upgrades ... I hear that's fairly rare actually, but it wouldn't even be an issue for a CP (unlimited domestic UG's, including one companion, confirmable 7 days in advance on all fares, UA is 100 hours I believe for 1K's). Of course, 1K is a bit of a different story with 6 SWU's versus 2 (or 4 if the companion ones are actually useful) ... and UA SWU's are better than US SWU's now anyway with the time restictions. The transferability of SWU's isn't a huge benefit IMO, unless you're looking to sell them on Ebay. Still, the mileage upgrades on any fare except V and US's ultra generous mileage bonuses ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif) make up for all of that ...

Okay, I'm trying to stick with just program benefits here ... which doesn't really include route (or the superiority of US's business class to UA's ... oh, let's not go there ...).

ANYWAY, my original point being, that one benefit of being able to change ticketing with no fees is just one benefit. I don't think you can say a program is superior just by looking at a single benefit. Arguably 1K is superior to CP (arguably), but my point was to say that PremEx is superior to Gold just because of that one benefit is kind of silly, you have to look at all the benefits each program offers. As a Gold on US I'll take almost always flying in FC without buying any certs over occasionally saving $100 to confirm a change in advance as a PremEx on UA (and the lower upgrade rate and/or buying upgrade certs), which I would use maybe once a year, and even when I did use it, my company would usually just pay for it anyway since it would typically be on business trips.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ddorrer:
There still are several ways to bypass the DMW upgrade issue. And two upgrade over the DM line and use a E-kiosk for your FC ticket. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif</font>

When I went to use the E-kiosk at LGA after getting my upgrade via a DM phone call--the machine told me I had to check in with the desk and present my upgrade cert!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ddorrer:
There still are several ways to bypass the DMW upgrade issue. One ask for an upgrade over the DM line and check in at a smaller airport. And two upgrade over the DM line and use a E-kiosk for your FC ticket. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif</font>

Smaller airports don't necessarily mean that the agents will be lax either. Some of us have experienced this. Plus, I'm not going to drive 60 miles to Allentown when PHL is 10 miles from my home.

As for the kiosks, unless you are CP, you cannot use the kiosk to check in with an upgrade. It will send you to a counter agent.

As far as I'm concerned, EVERY time I buy a discounted ticket I know that one of the reasons my fare is low is because it is a restricted fare. If I have to make a change, I always expect to pay the change fee. It was part of the 'deal' I made with US Airways when I bought the ticket.

The issue of change fees (and how and if and when and why they should be paid) is not one for day of travel debate. It's one that US Airways management decides when it puts the fares into the system. Once we (as passengers) purchase our tickets, we have no right to whine and moan when the rules we agreed to in the first place are enforced.

I admit, this topic steams me a bit as passengers INCORRECTLY make the airline into the bad guy when they enforce rules the passenger agreed to the moment they bought the ticket! Shut up and stick to the deal you agreed to when you bought the ticket! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

[This message has been edited by geo1004 (edited 06-07-2002).]

My gripe with these change fees is that they don't reflect the true cost of making a change - $100 for a few minutes of an agent's time? What happened to customer service as a primary goal? There have been numerous times when I would have been able to take an earlier flight (usually a day prior or earlier the same day), but I'm not going to pay $100 out of my pocket to do that. It would seem to me that if there are empty seats on an earlier flight and the airline changes me to one of those, my seat on a later flight is now available to be sold - better opportunity for the airline!

Earlier this month flying US from PIT to ORD, I was done much earlier than anticipated and got to PIT at 11:45 AM. Went to the counter to check on going standby on an earlier flight. The agent said my fare did not even allow standby except for certain times of the day (12:00 PM to 1:00 PM and after 5:00 PM). New one on me - I thought you could always go standby on the same day!

This is not an issue of what it costs to do a change.

Essentially, you would argue that it is a deterrent from always purchasing rock-bottom prices and switching at will to get the time/place you originally wanted even when it was not available at the fare you wanted.

Just like "break out" clauses in apartment rental agreements: the breakout fee may be $1000 even though the paperwork and materials costs $250.

Not sure how this topic got onto change fees, but that issue is fairly straightforward. The airlines put them in to cover the cost of reissuing paper tickets, and at the original rate of $25, that figure was probably close to actual. Somewhere between then and now, they saw the potential of collecting lots of these fees. This is now an additional revenue stream (or a defacto fare increase, depending on how you see it), likely a budgeted line item, and not meant to do anything but provide more revenue. If you want to debate fairness, you are wasting your time. This one's all about collecting more money.

Do airlines increase cash flow on change fees? Obviously.
Do they make money? Sometimes, but not always. Maybe someone else didn’t buy a seat on your original flight – you bought the last good discounted fare or the seat you held depleted the inventory just enough that it caused seats for a multiple party not to be available. Or, seats together were no available for a family traveling. Maybe that caused the loss of a sale of 4 seats. People DON’T buy a ticket for all kinds of different reasons. I would liken the fee more to a re-stocking fee. You returned it after having it in your possession when I quite possible could have sold it (maybe even for more money!) and now my employees also have to perform extra work to accommodate you changing your mind. Will I resell it today? Probably not. And once the flight leaves, I won't have another opportunity. And maybe too I turned away some freight because I was already full of people and bags and I've got to think of weight and balance.
Time of day restrictions/rules are in place just because of the scenario that you attempted; I’ll just buy this really inexpensive but time inconvenient/less popular travel time ticket and stand-by for the time I really want to travel. If everyone did that, there would be even more chaos at the airports.

You obviously never heard of overbooking. Next to lawyers (who invented the 120 minute hour), these airline guys are the best in the business at selling the same thing to three different people at the same time.

To get back to the main issue and to comment on what someone said - is it possible to check in at the kiosk and present your upgrade when you give your luggage to the attendant?

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Uflyer:
To get back to the main issue and to comment on what someone said - is it possible to check in at the kiosk and present your upgrade when you give your luggage to the attendant?</font>

If you are not CP, I don't think it is possible to do any transaction at a kiosk that involves an "attached" coupon. Or, I've had zero luck as of about 6 weeks ago doing so.


------------------
Saving the world, one clue at a time.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Uflyer:
To get back to the main issue and to comment on what someone said - is it possible to check in at the kiosk and present your upgrade when you give your luggage to the attendant?</font>

Absolutely not. This is where those promised 'electronic upgrades' Mike Isom spoke of in the FT Live Chat months ago would be of great benefit. Come to think of it, what items that he talked about as 'coming soon' HAVE been put in place??