TalkBoard Topics - Proposal: Brazil Forum

In early November I proposed this forum, but dropped the idea due to lack of response. Now I have reconsidered and think it should absolutely be done.

There are few active FTers in Brazil so the Forum will be used much more to exchange and provide information people who travel to Brazil rather than domestic activity, as is the case with the Argentina forum.

To that end, the very strong domestic economy is generating huge increases in domestic air travel, 18.8% up in the most recent quarter. The recent accession of TAM to ST raises many issues of interest to FTers as does the recent formation of LATAM by LAN and TAM, thus raising the interest in a forum for LAN or LATAM. Just this month an Open Skies agreement with the US will spawn large increases on frequencies and destinations between the US and Brazil between now and 2014.

Major hotel, airport and other infrastructure projects are underway for the 2014 World Cup including government investment alone of $18 billion in new infrastructure. New hotels from Accor, Hyatt and numerous others are being built. Hilton alone plans new hotels in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, Brasilia, Belo Horizonte, Porto Alegre, Manaus, Recife, and Goiania. All of this is to be done for the World Cu014, not mentioning the further development to be accomplished for the Olympics in 2016. It is a certainty that all this activity will involve many FTers, more so since ers are part of the travel and entertainment industry themselves.

Although there were only about 7mm tourists who came to Brazil in 2010, that number is expected to rise to 9.2mm in 2014 according to Business Monitor International. Domestic forecasts are much higher. A fair number of those will be FTers also, so as the interest rises so will the demand for such a forum.

Assuming my count is correct there were only 33 new posts in the South America forum on the subject of Brazil since September, roughly equivalent to that of Argentina, but 24,904 views and 477 posts. These are not high numbers. They certainly reflect the lack of a specific forum, and also the paucity of knowledgeable responses regarding Brazil. Just as Gaucho100k has made the Argentina forum a vibrant place because of his dedication, not to mention his expertise about wine, some fo the regular posters who reside in or travel often to Brazil can be counted on to offer opinions.

Please tell us what we must do to get this Forum approved. I cannot locate the oft-discussed questionnaire but I'll do my best to complete it when I find it.

Your original thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1143688-new-forum-requests-brazil-lan-tam.html) actually proposed both Brazil and LAN/TAM forums somewhat muddying the waters since there was a previous thread lobbying for a LAN/TAM in this thread. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/984251-proposal-time-lan-forum.html)

Regardless of the semantics however I agree it's time for a Brazil forum with two huge global events on the horizon and a subsequent flood of interest expected from FTers. An idea whose time has come and one I could support. ^

I could not agree more... Brazil deserves its own Forum, I think its long overdue.... :D ^

I am also in support of a Brazil forum.

Sounds like a good idea to me as well. I would fully support this.

Best regards,

William R. Sanders
Online Guest Feedback Coordinator
Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide

guest.forum@starwoodhotels.com

That's a great idea, jbcarioca! I fully support your initiative!

Brazil forum makes a lot of sense.

I'd be pleased to consider a Brazil forum.

To do so, I'd like to see evidence of an unmet need demonstrated on FlyerTalk.

Thank you.

I cannot locate the oft-discussed questionnaire but I'll do my best to complete it when I find it.

Here you go:

TalkBoard Statement on Criteria for Forum Changes (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/town-hall-official-talkboard-voting-decisions/1100320-motion-passed-talkboard-statement-criteria-forum-changes.html#post14211622)

I can lend my support behind a Brazil forum.

It is worth noting that this could easily increase FT's Google results. Currently a search for "Brazil forum" does not bring up the FT South America forum on the first page, but with FT's significant net presence, it is possible a dedicated Brazil forum would.

I'd be pleased to consider a Brazil forum.

To do so, I'd like to see evidence of an unmet need demonstrated on FlyerTalk.

Gee, lots of threads on first page on S. America forum are about Brazil, visas, city recommendations or other general topics. I won't put a metric to the number as that might influence the numbers ;) but surely they speak for themselves.

I'm 100% willing to support a Brazil forum and I don't even need any additional convincing.

Brazil is and has been a growing world power for some years now. And that's likely to increase dramatically in the near future.

If we can rightfully justify an Argentina forum than a Brazil forum is a no-brainer IMO.

Yes, I'd like to see a Brazil forum. In fact we should all be in Brazil this time of the year.

Considering three of the 4 BRIC nations, that is Russia, India & China have their own forum's, think it's time that Brazil gets a dedicated forum.

If we can rightfully justify an Argentina forum than a Brazil forum is a no-brainer IMO.

Agreed, though finding a Brazilian poster with the knowledge & resources of
Gaucho100K won't be easy. ;)

I'm 100% willing to support a Brazil forum and I don't even need any additional convincing.

Brazil is and has been a growing world power for some years now. And that's likely to increase dramatically in the near future.

If we can rightfully justify an Argentina forum than a Brazil forum is a no-brainer IMO.

Well that's two TB votes for it then - I am happy to support this as I found information I needed for a visit last year a little tricky to locate.

I wonder what took so long for the idea of a separate Brazil Forum to get this much attention.

Since I am in Brazil so much, I would participate more in such a forum. I have valid first-hand information to share about Brazil. Every now and again I answer questions from posters who inquire about various facets of travel to Brazil.

I look forward to the day the Brazil forum begins -
-

I was always surprised that there was no dedicated Brazilian Forum. This is really weird and very strange on my account.

I fully support a dedicated Brazil Forum. Lets get this happening as soon as possible.

Brazil is a world power, its size is half of South America, with a population of 200 million people and a world top tourist destination, it has the biggest airline in Latin America (TAM) and the busiest (pax/year) and best served airport in Latin America (GRU), the premier financial center in the region (São Paulo) and the premier tourist destination in the region (Rio de Janeiro), and last but not least, it will host the 2014 World Cup and 2016 Olympics. What more does it take to have a dedicated Forum?

Rgs,

I agree 100% and strongly support the creation of a Brazil forum!

If we can rightfully justify an Argentina forum than a Brazil forum is a no-brainer IMO.

Wooo !!!! Please, hold your horses there for just a minute.

The above statement is just plain wrong. Look at the metrics of the Argentina forum and then re-think what you have posted above. The numbers and the traffic speak for themselves.

Not to mix apples with oranges... and my support of a Brazil forum is clear, and I will help have it get more traffic - I stand 100% behind it.

However, I cannot let the above comment pass without pointing out that it does not reflect the facts.... Argentina´s own forum is something that has been beyond discussion for a long time, so please lets all support Brazil and its own forum with its own merits. Thank you.

I see a need for it given that many of the posts for South America deal with Brazil. Also as the 2014 World Soccer and 2016 Olympics are coming up.

I'm all for it.

If I might make a helpful suggestion to improve the forum, it would be to prevent Argentinians from posting on it. :D:D:D

I'm all for it.

If I might make a helpful suggestion to improve the forum, it would be to prevent Argentinians from posting on it. :D:D:D

Good idea! BTW, Gaucho100k is now an honorary Brazilian because he is developing, hopefully, a taste for the excellent Brazilian wines of Garibaldi among other places. He is an essential component of the Southern Brazil views, don't you agree? :D:D:D:D

Important Criteria for Forum Changes

The following are qualitative criteria that the TalkBoard believes are useful to consider when evaluating proposals to create, close, split, or move forums. Whenever a forum change is discussed on the TalkBoard Topics, the TalkBoard encourages posters to fully address these criteria in addition to any other reasons supporting or opposing the change.

1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk?

Brazil is the largest country in South America, the largest economy in South America and has the largest airline in the Southern Hemisphere, TAM. Tourism and business are booming and will do so more as the 2014 World Cup and the 2016 Olympics are being prepared. Further, Brazil has a rapidly growing oil industry, now with reserves the highest in the Americas, which is leading to flights crowded with oil industry people going from Houston to Rio de Janeiro and many other routes. The newly signed Open Skies agreement between Brazil and US will produce even more growth in new flights than has already happened in the last two years. The Forum will provide a convenient place for discussion of these events and will also provide information for the many FTers who are now travelling to and from Brazil.

There is no authoritative convenient place now for a frequent-flyer oriented discussion regarding Brazil. Because of distances the many Brazilians who travel regularly to the US and Europe are almost all Elite members of one or more alliance, but have no easy place to learn more about their potential benefits and other issues. The Brazil Forum will act to draw them into the discussion. By having a dedicated forum FT can become known as the authoritative source on all things related to Frequent Flyers.

The current members of FlyerTalk who are located in Brazil are well aware of the lack of reference to this economy among non-Brazilian Frequent Flyers. The Brazil Forum can help to acquaint them with the country, which became the sixth largest economy in the world in 2007. As Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, Starwood, Accor and other hotel chains open dozens of new hotels in the next two years the forum will help inform people of these options. The forum, by updating on current events relevant to the FT community such as the move to privatize major airports, opening oil exploration and production to foreign interests, allowing foreign firms to lead the development of privatized roads, ports, airports and rail infrastructure will generate much more interest and benefit than the currently diffuse placement affords.

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company.

This question is slightly difficult to answer succinctly. However, almost all major politicians, businesspeople and sports figures are elite level frequent flyers. Generating favorable mention of FlyerTalk and the new Brazil Forum (hopefully also discussing Fora for LATAM, GOL and others in the not distant future) is not difficult. FlyerTalkers resident in Brazil possess the contacts to accomplish that.

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?

The subjects of FlyerTalk are acutely relevant to all visitors and many residents of Brazil precisely because frequent flying is part of the psyche of the country and the region. There is no better place to discuss loyalty and rewards. Because even frozen yogurt shops and ‘comida a quilo’ restaurants have loyalty schemes in Brazil today, the ability of FT to decipher the crucial points is even more relevant to many consumers here.

FT is the only responsible arena for discussing travel related loyalty programs!

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.

We have a small but enthusiastic cadre of people who know the country and the issues well and will work to maintain an active and productive forum. Many more will appear as we better publicize the relevance of the Brazil Forum. Many are not appearing now because Brazil is relegated to the status of a minor country with equivalence to Surinam. That dismissal of Brazil discourages anyone from seeking answers of discussions here, precisely because it is FlyerTalk that ignores the reality of the country. We indeed must be passionate and devotes to redress this legacy, and get the attention that the country with the third largest manufacturer of commercial aircraft deserves.

Passion we have! We need to channel the passion to develop a solid cadre of people who will provide the constant attention the forum will require. We will do that.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.

It is true that the existing South America forum has had only 33 new threads since September, but even the obscure placement produced 478 posts and 24,904 views in the same period. In the equally dismissive Other North and South America Frequent Flyer Programs there were about 25 posts in the same period asking questions of general relevance about Brazil and facilities and those had 294 posts and 20,805 views. Were these to be placed as people would reasonably expect them to be there will be a huge increase in activity and relevance. Even the Orlando forum will benefit, since Brazilian visitors are now the largest national group to Orlando, and they have minimal ability to link those interests in the country. Given that Brazilians now spend more in New York than do the residents of any single European country it should prove beneficial to New York as well. Brazil deserves a vibrant living forum, which it will have soon after the TalkBoard approves it.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum.

Of course in the absence of the Brazil Forum most discussions regarding Brazil do not happen on FlyerTalk at all, simply because intelligent people will not waste their time when it is clear that FlyerTalk sees Argentina as more important than Brazil. (I apologize to Gaucho100k, but it is clear that his role is a huge factor in creating the successful Argentina Forum rather than the intrinsic preference of FlyerTalkers to know more about Argentina than Brazil). It is precisely the classification issue that will make this Brazil Forum a success.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?


While the S/N ratio in this context might be unclear, it is clear that the current forum generates more generic continent hopping questions such as ones by newbys asking about the short flight from Cancun to Iguassu Falls. (that one happened!) We should certainly help those people, but we should also encourage those with more specific tastes, especially when Brazil itself is the size of the continental US and encompasses diversity quite analogous to that of the US.

Thus the smaller countries will have more attention in their existing forum and the Brazil Forum will become more topical. That will increase the quality and quantity of posts and utility, reducing spurious broadly stated questions.

As the signal improves, the noise becomes less disturbing to the signal. That will happen in this case. Thus the more clearly topical the posts are the less likely it is that off-topic and irrelevant posts will occur.


Please offer any criticism or modifications anyone desires. This is a first draft.

Happy holidays everyone.

I'm all for it.

If I might make a helpful suggestion to improve the forum, it would be to prevent Argentinians from posting on it. :D:D:D

He he he.... leaving soccer aside, Argentines have no beef with Brazilians... its with our cousins from the wrong side of the Andes that we have issues..... :p :D

Good idea! BTW, Gaucho100k is now an honorary Brazilian because he is developing, hopefully, a taste for the excellent Brazilian wines of Garibaldi among other places. He is an essential component of the Southern Brazil views, don't you agree? :D:D:D:D

Heck... Ive long had*** a developed taste for Brazilian Stewardesses.... does that count..??!!!! :D :p

(***) no longer current as Im now married to an Argentine who would kill me if she read my above post... :eek: :o

He he he.... leaving soccer aside, Argentines have no beef with Brazilians... its with our cousins from the wrong side of the Andes that we have issues..... :p :D

What is soccer? If you mean futebal some Argentines do play a little bit, it is true. Of course we must remember that Maradona confuses the game with fealty to Fidel, so... it is little wonder that he is not such a stellar guide for the team. Who am I to criticize when we did not do better?

I agree with everyone who has supported the idea of a Brasil forum and will also echo what Markie said in that finding information about Brasil can be a little tricky.

Totally agree..this is long overdue :)

With the upcoming events and Brazil's growing economic power it certainly deserves a forum of it's own - never mind it's relative size to some of the other territories represented by forums and the sheer differences between it and the rest of South America (language difference aside!)

I fully support this, long overdue.

We'll most likely need an "Airlines of Brazil" forum pretty soon as well given the growth on the domestic market here and the number of small regional airlines that are appearing, but one battle at a time.

FR

Brasil please!

I am also in support of a Brazil forum.

I agree. lets kept it the Brazil Forums.

To add some comments...

Good first draft, jbcarioca. You might want to incorporate the fact that due to the size of Brazil and lack of adequate road or rail infrastructure, flying is really the only way to travel long distances in Brazil. Business people in Sao Paulo who have to meet with their counterparts in other cites are going to fly, not drive or take the train. So while there are elites that travel to the US and Europe and Asia on a regular basis, there are probably plenty within country as well.

I also think that in one of the replies in the thread a person touched on another aspect. That it was difficult to find some of the information he was seeking on Brazil. This is because people post about Brazil in various forums. Example, a Delta FF may post a question about Brazil in the Delta forum as he/she is taking a flight to Brazil. Granted, other Delta FF may help out, but for a non Delta FF it may not cross their mind to check that forum.

And how many posts do we see that start out with something like "Mods, please move if appropriate, I did a search and couldn't find..." The search engine for this site isn't user friendly. Worse than .bomb! :D Having the Brazil forum for all the reasons given so far will also provide a place for hidden nuggets to be found, like some of the best pousadas that one may not even think about as they are too focused on international chains for accomodations.

I support the idea. Brasil rules..
Hope it's available soon cause I'm going to Rio on jan. 20th;)

The TalkBoard is discussing this suggestion in the private TalkBoard forum.

The TalkBoard is discussing this suggestion in the private TalkBoard forum.

Glad to hear and thanks for the note as it's a positive sign towards the creation of a Brazil forum. :)

The TalkBoard is discussing this suggestion in the private TalkBoard forum.

Wonderful news. I'm very glad to hear about that.

I give my full support for a new Brazil forum for two reasons.

1. Did anyone watch 60 minutes last week? Brazil is even hotter than China when it comes to new investment and M&A. And when I say M&A, I mean Brazilian companies buying out American and Euro companies! Plus most of us fly on Brazilian jets on a regular basis. Embraer regional jets don't you know?

2. Carnival, Carnival, Carnival

The TalkBoard is discussing this suggestion in the private TalkBoard forum.

Excellent !!!! ^

Great work by jbcarioca. I am inclined to support this proposal.

I'd like to add my voice to the masses asking for a brazil forum. I'm hoping to go there soon for the first time and to have a dedicated resource on FT for this country would be invaluable.

As an avid aviation (and general travel) enthusiast based between Brazil and the US, I fully support this initiative and have no doubts that it will be a welcome and useful addition.

I echo the sentiments of others about the need for a Brazilian forum. Apart from its size and economic power, Brazil´s influx of travelers is increasing exponentially and having a dedicated forum makes sense. For your information here are a few recent developments:

- In August TAM launched a 5X weekly flight between GIG and FRA.
- At the end of Oct. KL launched an extra weekly flight between AMS and GRU.
- In March 2011 SQ will inaugurate BCN-GRU 3X a week.
- In June AZ will launch 3X a week going to 4X in July between FCO and GRU.

For all the (obvious) reasons stated above FT should have a Brazil Forum. I support it.

I'm in full support of this as well. Thanks for bringing this up, jbcarioca.

We have been in Brazil for a week, and spent Xmas Day today out in the Amazon, in a Jungle camp trying to catch Piranha fish!

A Forum here is long overdue - if only for me to campaign against the insane current attitudes of the Brazil Consuls in USA/Canada/Australia about granting Visas. :)

And for urging the Govt. to dynamite both Sao Paulo and Rio airports real soon, and madly start re-building them in a 21st century fashion. To replace the cute and totally hopeless 1960s structures presently there!

They MAY then be on rough par with the rest of the world by the time of the Olympics.

This country has near 200 MILLION residents, and has a tiger economy, and strong currency - it certainly warrants a FT Forum. PERIOD.

Glen
.

We have been in Brazil for a week, and spent Xmas Day today out in the Amazon, in a Jungle camp trying to catch Piranha fish!

Wow, Brazil must really have it going on if they now have the Internet in the Amazonian jungle. :)

As for visa policies, they are reciprocal.

There is a large program that is putting free internet in lots of improbable places. One of the first was Copacabana beach, hardly remote, but certainly important. There are now quite a few places in the North and Northeast that have free access, and more coming.

We may be primitive in some ways but my house can have a 100mb connection, but I'm too cheap for it myself.

FWIW, I've made a motion regarding the creation of a Brazil forum.

FWIW, I've made a motion regarding the creation of a Brazil forum.

Is the motion to create the Brazil forum? If so, muito obrigado! Thank you very much!

Great idea.

Is the motion to create the Brazil forum? If so, muito obrigado! Thank you very much!

it was. you're welcome. :)

- In June AZ will launch 3X a week going to 4X in July between FCO and GRU.

Between FCO and GIG actually.

They MAY then be on rough par with the rest of the world by the time of the Olympics.


My Dear Glen.... such a seasoned traveler like yourself should already have learned to be less "colonial" in your assessments of countries that are less developed than your homeland. Look at what China did with their Olympics.... you shoud know better than to be so condescending... tsk tsk... :rolleyes:

You will see for yourself, soon enough, what sort of an Olympic Games and a World Cup the Brazilians will host. You underestimate the pride of the Brazilian people... and, my dear friend, you are dead wrong about douting them. But beware... you better travel to Brazil soon and very often or else it will price itself above your comfort zone... :p

I suggest you sell a Colonial stamp and travel more often to MercoSur.... heck, your prayers have been heard and the reciprocity fee for Ozzie passport holders is now a better value.... :o :D ^

A big yes from me.

Brazil most certainly deserves a forum of its own. ^

Please add my voice to the chorus. Brazil with its many wonders deserves its own forum.

I support a Brazil forum, too! ^

I support this forum totally.

A few numbers: Counting down to the 25th most recently active thread in the Argentina forum, not counting stickies, gives a last post date of November 20. The South America forum has 22 Brazil-related threads (based on titles) posted in since then, plus perhaps a few more that discuss Brazil in their content but don't mention it in their titles. If the Argentina forum is considered active enough to keep - I feel it is, this is not an "either-or" situation - there is direct evidence that a Brazil forum would be comparably active.

Not only do I want a Brazil forum, I insist on a Brazil forum! :)

Count me in with a YES for this initiative.

FWIW, I've made a motion regarding the creation of a Brazil forum.

Obrigado, from the Northern tip of Brazil. :)

OK, my support added.

That should be the clincher :)

OK, my support added.

That should be the clincher :)

As well it would be. Obrigado, feliz ano novo.

This motion was approved overwhelmingly by the TalkBoard. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/15556867-post1.html)

I guess IAN-UK was the clincher!!!:D

The new Brazil forum can be found here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brazil-678/). Enjoy.

As well it would be. Obrigado, feliz ano novo.

... and Boas Entradas to you !

Great call. With the current state of airports in Brazil, travelers need our help more than ever to navigate through the country.
Who knows, with all the events coming up maybe we can even have a Carioca forum :)