Practical Travel Safety Issues - WE flew to Santa Barbara and NEVER saw TSA

We flew round trip to Santa Barbara on Sunday and never dealt with the TSA. When we arrived we were personally escorted to the terminal, and given free coffee, water bottles and cookies. We then were personally driven to our destination, picked up and returned directly to our aircraft for our flight home.

Yes, I am a small aircraft owner and this life on the 'other' side of the airport. For the price of an SUV or luxury car we own a 4 seat single engine airplane. I am a pilot and we flew to SBA for lunch and a walk on the beach. We NEVER see TSA. We are never searched or patted down or go though metal detectors and can bring bottles of water or soda or drinks in a cooler for a long flight. Food too. Then we land closer to our destination and are treated as a valued customer.

This is going to happen again when we travel for Thanksgiving. We will leave the house at 8am, drive to the airport, get in the airplane and then 3 hours after leaving the house [slightly less than 2 hours in the air] arrive at our destination, beating the airlines on the same route by about an hour. My brother in law will drive his car onto the ramp and 20 min after landing we will be at the house ready to eat turkey.

It is possible for the average person to avoid this kind of stuff for trips out to 800 miles or so. General Aviation can be our savoir for traveling distances that most folks could drive up to 12 hours.

I don't think the general public is going to be buying 4-seater planes anytime in the near future or go through pilot training, etc, so for the majority of folk that travel they'll still need to use the old-fashioned method, which is commercial air & they'll have to deal w/ TSA.

Cheers.

I think this is the only TSA-free airline in existence in the US right now: http://www.seaportair.com/

I proposed that on a different thread. What if an organization were to lease a number of jets and sell "memberships" instead of tickets? Something like that:

- Good morning, I would like to get from IAH to CRP

- I am sorry, sir, we are a private club and we do not sell tickets to general public. Would you like to purchase our membership? That would be one dollar, for a year, please. And we do have a flight on that route, departing at 9 am; we can put you on board for $300 aircraft use fee.

Presumably, that would fall under "private jets", no? Any lawyers on board to comment on the idea? Any entrepreneurs interested in implementing it? :D

Yes, I am a small aircraft owner and this life on the 'other' side of the airport. For the price of an SUV or luxury car we own a 4 seat single engine airplane... General Aviation can be our savior for traveling distances that most folks could drive up to 12 hours. Perspective check. I'm supporting a teenage son as he gets his pilot's license and each hour of inflight training costs the equivalent of a SEA-LAX roundtrip. There's a reason why most Americans don't own luxury cars, or for that matter get licenses to fly. This post is a little like hearing Paris Hilton wonder why everyone isn't attending the Cannes Film Festival. For normal people it's either out of the question or a huge sacrifice. General aviation isn't going to be a statistically meaningful answer to any of this, your and James Fallows' visions notwithstanding.

When I read this post, my first thought was "Hm, that's a pretty big hole in our airport security."

This is probably another reason why terrorists want to take private flying lessons.

I proposed that on a different thread. What if an organization were to lease a number of jets and sell "memberships" instead of tickets? Something like that:

- Good morning, I would like to get from IAH to CRP

- I am sorry, sir, we are a private club and we do not sell tickets to general public. Would you like to purchase our membership? That would be one dollar, for a year, please. And we do have a flight on that route, departing at 9 am; we can put you on board for $300 aircraft use fee.

Presumably, that would fall under "private jets", no? Any lawyers on board to comment on the idea? Any entrepreneurs interested in implementing it? :D

Well, to a first order, this business model already exists: It's called NetJets. Unfortunately, the 'membership fee' is a lot more than $1!

Perspective check. I'm supporting a teenage son as he gets his pilot's license and each hour of inflight training costs the equivalent of a SEA-LAX roundtrip. There's a reason why most Americans don't own luxury cars, or for that matter get licenses to fly. This post is a little like hearing Paris Hilton wonder why everyone isn't attending the Cannes Film Festival. For normal people it's either out of the question or a huge sacrifice. General aviation isn't going to be a statistically meaningful answer to any of this, your and James Fallows' visions notwithstanding.

While I concur that GA is not the statistically meaningful answer, the costs of instruction vary around the country and are also somewhat limited in their duration. Obtaining the PPC is NOT something that drags on for years.

I have not looked at the present requirements, but as recently as a few years ago, one could easily get everything done inside of 50 hours of time, less than half of which required the cost of the instructor in the right seat.

I do hold very real concerns about the target that the government is painting on general aviation though...

When I read this post, my first thought was "Hm, that's a pretty big hole in our airport security."

This is probably another reason why terrorists want to take private flying lessons.

The large schools they were going to catered to the same population as aspires to be a commercial pilot. Some of those schools do also offer instruction to the Cessna/Piper crowd, but the terrorists were not looking to fly a single-engine...after all, they can learn more about doing that sitting in front of their computers with the Saitek control modules and any decent flight simulator...

Well, to a first order, this business model already exists: It's called NetJets. Unfortunately, the 'membership fee' is a lot more than $1!

I am aware of NetJets. What I am proposing is a totally different business model more akin to serving alcohol in dry districts in Dallas (until they got rid of it, that is). You don't purchase ownership, you are not assigned a specific number of hours and you do not fly point to point. You buy hours AS NEEDED on routes THAT AVAILABLE.

I simply must chime in here. As the lucky son-in-law of a private pilot (all the perks, none of the cost), I've seen how economical it is to own and operate a GA aircraft. My father-in-law owns a Beechcraft A36, not the most economical aircraft to own, but not the most expensive either. He is meticulous about his plane, it's 31 years old and in perfect condition.

The cost of 75 gallons of 100LL fuel at $5.00/gal will pay for a commerical flight. Add maintenance and annuals to that and you're buying a business class ticket at full fare prices.

Convenient? Yes. Hassle free? Kinda. But I don't know about being in the air within an hour of leaving the house. Between filing the flight plan, driving to the hangar, pulling the plane out to the ramp, do your walk-around, run through the pre-start check, start up, taxi to the run up area, pre take-off check, waiting for the guy that wants come through and do a touch-and-go...

Oh, and I don't think I'd want to get in a plane that cost the same as an SUV, yikes!

As the lucky son-in-law of a private pilot (all the perks, none of the cost), I've seen how economical it is to own and operate a GA aircraft. My father-in-law owns a Beechcraft A36... The cost of 75 gallons of 100LL fuel at $5.00/gal will pay for a commerical flight. Add maintenance and annuals to that and you're buying a business class ticket at full fare prices.

Just looked up used Beech A36s for sale online. 1970s-vintage examples are on the block for $115,000 - $135,000. 2000 and later-year models run from $375,000 to $450,000 and up. That's the price of a nice house. So much for "how economical it is." So much for "buying a business class ticket at full fare prices." I don't think you'll get many takers when you tell people it's easy and "economical" to avoid TSA checkpoints -- just pour every cent you've got into buying, maintaining, and getting certified to fly a Beechcraft A36. It looks like a roughly half-million-dollar proposition. That's enough to buy at least 100 business class tickets to Europe -- a destination that is pretty difficult to fly a Beech A36 to.

I think this is the only TSA-free airline in existence in the US right now: http://www.seaportair.com/

I believe this is another airline that is TSA-free.
http://www.kenmoreair.com/index.php

Coincidentally, you can connect from Kenmore to Seaport at Boeing Field in Seattle. That said, you really can't go all that far on either one. Definitely both niche airlines.

Just looked up used Beech A36s for sale online. 1970s-vintage examples are on the block for $115,000 - $135,000. 2000 and later-year models run from $375,000 to $450,000 and up. That's the price of a nice house. So much for "how economical it is." So much for "buying a business class ticket at full fare prices." I don't think you'll get many takers when you tell people it's easy and "economical" to avoid TSA checkpoints -- just pour every cent you've got into buying, maintaining, and getting certified to fly a Beechcraft A36. It looks like a roughly half-million-dollar proposition. That's enough to buy at least 100 business class tickets to Europe -- a destination that is pretty difficult to fly a Beech A36 to.

Well, a Bonanza is probably the single most expensive single piston GA airplane out there and it will not get me there any faster than my airplane.
I own a 1971 Piper Comanche 260C - 155kts no wind airspeed - my airplane costs us about $135 per hour to operate - fuel, maintenance, etc. 4 hours to Phoenix and back is be about $540. 3 airline tickets, bought at discount rates, for Thanksgiving Day through Saturday [NOT the peak travel times] cost $178 each with fees and taxes - total $538. Plus parking at the airport. Total cost is a wash.

My hangar is 13 minutes from my driveway. I can easily be wheels up within 60 minutes of leaving home. I certainly am home within 30-45 of wheels touching down.

Sure = I spent money on the airplane and on training. I fly for fun - its a hobby - not a job - but its also practical. For this flight - it costs us the same as using an airline. The blood pressure lowering consequences of being able to arrive at an airport 13 minutes after leaving the house, pulling out my airplane, pre-flighting it, loading it and parking our car securely in the hangar for free while we are gone, and then coming back and having the car right there next to the airplane? Priceless.

As for cost being a determinative of safety or value - - there are people flying day in and day out with Cherokees and Skyhawks and Mooney's that cost $40-50k, with aviation electronics installed in the airplanes which is more advanced that that in the airliner you are sitting in.

I am aware of NetJets. What I am proposing is a totally different business model more akin to serving alcohol in dry districts in Dallas (until they got rid of it, that is). You don't purchase ownership, you are not assigned a specific number of hours and you do not fly point to point. You buy hours AS NEEDED on routes THAT AVAILABLE.

Somehow the TSA will find or invent a regulation to prevent an general aviation club that flies 737s from taking hold.

When I read this post, my first thought was "Hm, that's a pretty big hole in our airport security."

This is probably another reason why terrorists want to take private flying lessons.

:rolleyes:

Somehow the TSA will find or invent a regulation to prevent an general aviation club that flies 737s from taking hold.

They already have:
http://www.tsa.gov/press/releases/2008/1009.shtm

This nonsense is still being debated, and fortunately the business aviation community has been able to push back

As for cost being a determinative of safety or value - - there are people flying day in and day out with Cherokees and Skyhawks and Mooney's that cost $40-50k, with aviation electronics installed in the airplanes which is more advanced that that in the airliner you are sitting in.

And I would still say that the majority of Americans (especially in today's economy) can't afford a luxury car, much less a plane, much less take the classes to become a pilot. It's a niche, so good for you. But be realistic - your 'solution' won't work for hundreds of thousands of Americans.

BTW - not to sidetrack the thread. Just curious - what does insurance & gas cost on planes like you're talking? I'm more familiar with boats in terms of price, insurance, gas, etc. Always wondered about planes.

Cheers.

Just looked up used Beech A36s for sale online. 1970s-vintage examples are on the block for $115,000 - $135,000. 2000 and later-year models run from $375,000 to $450,000 and up. That's the price of a nice house. So much for "how economical it is." So much for "buying a business class ticket at full fare prices." I don't think you'll get many takers when you tell people it's easy and "economical" to avoid TSA checkpoints -- just pour every cent you've got into buying, maintaining, and getting certified to fly a Beechcraft A36. It looks like a roughly half-million-dollar proposition. That's enough to buy at least 100 business class tickets to Europe -- a destination that is pretty difficult to fly a Beech A36 to.

In wonder how much a 1999 Cessna Skyhawk or earlier is going for. You know something that has 600 lbs payload, 600 nm range, 124 knots true air speed, 8 gallons/hour, etc?

http://www.controller.com/list/list.aspx?pg=3&ETID=1&catid=6&Mdltxt=172S+SKYHAWK+SP&setype=1&Manu=CESSNA&mdlx=exact&bcatid=13&Pref=0&Thumbs=1

And you were saying?

They already have:
http://www.tsa.gov/press/releases/2008/1009.shtm

This nonsense is still being debated, and fortunately the business aviation community has been able to push back

It wasn't just the bizav guys that pushed back (http://www.eaa.org/govt/tsa.asp). ;)

I own and operate a four-seat single engine airplane, a 1966 Mooney (yes, that old) and can offer some additional perspective.

I live not far from SJC. Last weekend, I went to the LA area for an event and to see family. My travel time was 1hr+45 down and about 2+20 on the way back (I took my time with some coastal sight seeing, following the coast line relatively low until past SBA). I live 10 minutes from the local airport, and it takes me about 5-10 minutes to pre-flight, and 5 minutes to taxi, warm up, and conduct before takeoff checks: I can go from my home to wheels up in 25-30 minutes.

Owning an airplane and GA in general really does have to be something a person enjoys - but if so inclined, there really isn't anything like it. Most of my trips are quite comfortable, free of turbulence, traffic congestion, etc. I don't stand in lines, I don't show up an hour+ in advance, and I don't deal with the TSA. I can use facilities rivaling an airline lounge at airports I fly to (and of course there's a cost, whether to park or more for fuel), or go to small out of the way airports with nothing going on and no amenities. I go to airports closer to my final destination, and don't deal with waiting for connections.

As a general rule, for trips on the west coast, flying myself is a more convenient, comfortable, and faster (door to door) alternative than the airlines.

These are huge benefits in my book. In exchange, I spend 10-15K (all expenses included) a year to support my habit and travels, and I must carry significant responsibility to keep the skills sharp, maintain my airplane, fly when healthy/well rested, and to be especially mindful of the weather; even being instrument rated an equipped it would take a much more expensive machine to deal with things like icing conditions, for example.

PS: my direct out of pocket cost for the above trip to LA and back was less than $200 (fuel, and parking/airport fees overnight).

Edit: some info on cost per request:
Capital/acquisition: $50K for my airplane. This will vary wildly based on age, equipment, and type
Insurance: $1000/yr, $1M lia, full coverage of the purchase price
Storage: This will vary, anywhere from $50 a month (what I pay) for a spot outside to $400+ for a hangar in a large metro area
Fuel: My mooney is sort of like a compact car - smaller, but fast and fuel efficient: This varies but on the above trip I burned 40 gallons round trip, 4.50 a gallon was my cost

BTW - not to sidetrack the thread. Just curious - what does insurance & gas cost on planes like you're talking? I'm more familiar with boats in terms of price, insurance, gas, etc. Always wondered about planes.
Hi SkiAdcock,

I fly a late-model Cessna 182 that I own with two other partners. I'm a fairly low-time pilot, so I'm the most expensive person on the insurance policy, and the three of us split about $2500 per year. We're going to get a new policy in February, and I anticipate that our premiums will drop below $2000 for the three of us. I imagine that it would be even lower if it was just one of us alone.

My Cessna 182 flies a bit slower than Comanchepilot's plane, and burns about 13 gph. After factoring in maintenance reserves, inspections, and other costs, I budget $116 per hour of flight. Of that, only about $60 is fuel ... and we're actually over-budgeting for a lot of the other expenses. I'm based in San Francisco, and regularly fly down to LA for both business and pleasure (at least once a month). If I fill up 3 of my 4 seats, the cost is similar to or cheaper than a commercial flight, and the door-to-door time is dramatically better (between 2:30 and 3 hours going at 140 kts depending on winds and where in LA I head).

Getting my pilot's license was one of the best decisions I've ever made. By splitting fixed ownership costs (aircraft acquisition, insurance, etc.) with two other people, I'm able to afford to fly as much as I want on a relatively modest budget. It's a big commitment up front, but it's totally worth it. If you've ever even thought about it in passing, I recommend that you go up for a discovery flight (which typically costs less than $200).

It wasn't just the bizav guys that pushed back (http://www.eaa.org/govt/tsa.asp). ;)

Good point. I forgot about EAA's position. I really hope we never see that ridiculous proposal resurface.

Hello everyone – just registered today although I’ve been browsing the forum for a while. Like a lot of people here I’m fed up with airport security in general – not just the TSA.

I wanted to weigh in on this thread in response to the following –

When I read this post, my first thought was "Hm, that's a pretty big hole in our airport security."

This is probably another reason why terrorists want to take private flying lessons.

I happen to be a student pilot. I also happen to be someone who recently because a US citizen. Prior to that I was a green card holder and before that an H1-B visa holder. Under TSA rules all non-citizens have to register with the TSA and undergo a fingerprints/background check in order to enroll in flight training. This has to be repeated annually for anyone training for Private, Instrument or Multi-engine. The original proposals were far stricter in typical TSA style but the AOPA helped in having some of them eliminated.

While better security in important I still do not understand why the TSA needs to perform a background check on green card holders especially those who recently became green card holders since in order to get a green card you need to undergo a rigorous FBI background check along with fingerprints.

As far as the total min hours mandated by the FAA are concerned regarding getting a private, regional variations plus individual skill levels makes this a variable number. Here in SoCal it typically takes more hours to get a PPL due to the complex airspace, much more controlled airspace to fly through etc.

I simply must chime in here. As the lucky son-in-law of a private pilot (all the perks, none of the cost), I've seen how economical it is to own and operate a GA aircraft.

Hello everyone – just registered today although I’ve been browsing the forum for a while. Like a lot of people here I’m fed up with airport security in general – not just the TSA.

redcupr and blue_can, let me offer you both a big welcome to FlyerTalk!!

We appreciate the perspective of those who fly in GA aircraft.

See you around the forums.

As far as the total min hours mandated by the FAA are concerned regarding getting a private, regional variations plus individual skill levels makes this a variable number. Here in SoCal it typically takes more hours to get a PPL due to the complex airspace, much more controlled airspace to fly through etc.

concur with the regional issues...I started my instruction at KAUS, and probably a good two or three of my first 20 hours were spent taxiing to or from the active (or waiting for other clearance delivery and ground transmissions). Not to say that there are not things one can learn while taxiing, but it is a consideration compared to instruction at a non-towered and far less active field...

Obvious plus to learning in B or C space is that you don't freak out the first time you have to deal with a real tower and significant traffic...

redcupr and blue_can, let me offer you both a big welcome to FlyerTalk!!

We appreciate the perspective of those who fly in GA aircraft.

See you around the forums.

Thanks for the welcome :)

michelle227 - Funny thing is I've got so used to being on the radio with Towers, Flight Service, SoCal Approach etc that I now feel nervous about flying to uncontrolled airfields where you have to look for traffic and pilots can do unexpected things without someone controllng the traffic flow. Most of the flying here in San Diego is under a Mode C veil due to the main airport and the military bases. Not uncommon for me to be overflying fighter jets below.