Delta SkyMiles - Discussion: IND Vying for More Nonstops

As some may know, NWA had once offered several non-stop destinations from IND including SFO, SEA, DEN, AUS, MCO and others. DL has retained some of the flights run by NWA but there's certainly a void that remains in the minds of business travelers in IND (regardless of opinion on whether or not the city can sustain such traffic).

This story was printed in the Indy Star this AM discussing the airport's resolve to find new flights, particularly to SFO:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100909/BUSINESS/9090415/1003/BUSINESS/Airport-casts-net-for-nonstops-to-San-Francisco

Personally I don't see UA picking up an SFO flight after they cut mainline service to IND last summer and let go of their staff, and with RDU and STL seeing major increases in flights, I'm curious as to whether or not DL might be in position and have the desire to target some of these routes again...thoughts?

It always seemed to me as if NW's presence was simply to drive ATA out of IND. They mirrored TZ's schedule and then started cutting back soon after it left IND completely. In all honesty, I'd like to see the timing on the LAX flight improved first. That probably won't happen until service is daily again.

I can possibly see SEA service resume with all of the Asia connections, but not until the IAA decides to lower usage fees for the airlines involved. The mindset that the new terminal alone will expand service has obviously failed.

Though it's nice to know that the airport authority is looking beyond Branson service...

It always seemed to me as if NW's presence was simply to drive ATA out of IND. They mirrored TZ's schedule and then started cutting back soon after it left IND completely. In all honesty, I'd like to see the timing on the LAX flight improved first. That probably won't happen until service is daily again.

I can possibly see SEA service resume with all of the Asia connections, but not until the IAA decides to lower usage fees for the airlines involved. The mindset that the new terminal alone will expand service has obviously failed.

Though it's nice to know that the airport authority is looking beyond Branson service...

Agreed on the LAX flight. NWA had two flights per day at the height of things and that was awesome.

And that service to Branson, according to their website (Branson AirExpress), seems to be good for just two months (unless they haven't loaded anything past October 30).

I'm on the LAX-IND redeye in a few days as a connecting flight. First time; how's the opup for this leg (lowly GM)?

SkyClub would have been perfect for 2+ hours to kill. Anyone know anything about when that's going to open?

I'm on the LAX-IND redeye in a few days as a connecting flight. First time; how's the opup for this leg (lowly GM)?
I've taken that flight multiple times on varying days of the week, and it seemed that they usually had at least one F seat to sell as an upgrade. IND-LAX, though, is more difficult for GM and FO. I have been upgraded at the gate as a PM going west.

SkyClub would have been perfect for 2+ hours to kill. Anyone know anything about when that's going to open?
In the new IND promotion sent out on Tuesday, they were advertising "the only VIP lounge at the airport." I emailed them asking when it would open, and they said "late in the year," which will probably be after that promotion ends (6 November). Best-in-class advertising.

Does UA still have the IND maintenance base?

This story was printed in the Indy Star this AM discussing the airport's resolve to find new flights, particularly to SFO:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20100909/BUSINESS/9090415/1003/BUSINESS/Airport-casts-net-for-nonstops-to-San-Francisco

Personally I don't see UA picking up an SFO flight after they cut mainline service to IND last summer and let go of their staff, and with RDU and STL seeing major increases in flights, I'm curious as to whether or not DL might be in position and have the desire to target some of these routes again...thoughts?

I do not see SFO getting service from IND. DL cut MEM-SFO early this year and, if a hub cannot sustain the flight, a focus city definitely cannot.

I booked DCA-IND-LAX for Sun (in M for $209, $230ai !!) on Tues evening, and even as GM got the upgrade notification email last night

Does UA still have the IND maintenance base?
No, that closed many years ago (2003?).

I do not see SFO getting service from IND. DL cut MEM-IND early this year and, if a hub cannot sustain the flight, a focus city definitely cannot.
MEM-IND is still around. CVG got cut, however.

MEM-IND is still around. CVG got cut, however.

:confused:

I was saying that:
IF MEM-SFO cannot operate year around
THEN IND-SFO would probably not be on the table.

:confused:

I was saying that:
IF MEM-SFO cannot operate year around
THEN IND-SFO would probably not be on the table.
Sorry, I read the "DL cut MEM-IND" as "DL cut MEM-IND."

But yes, I agree with you on that point.

There have also been some other flights that have been cut/reduced somewhat silently. Though MEM-IND is still around, it used to be on an A320 2x daily with a CRJ at the noon hour and its now all CRJs; DCA went to two flights a day and will go back to three in Nov; LAS is gone entirely. DTW capacity I believe is also down with more CRJs thrown in, but the one additional flight to SLC and 737s to ATL are likely making up for that.

Its interesting to try and figure out where the disconnect lies--the airport director says something to the effect that they can guarantee the route will be sustainable yet no airlines are biting. Long ago there was talk of IND becoming a good-sized focus city, maybe akin to MKE now for Frontier/AirTran, but it seems those thoughts are long-gone.

Sorry, I read the "DL cut MEM-IND" as "DL cut MEM-IND."

But yes, I agree with you on that point.

Brainfart. Apologies for the :confused:

No, that closed many years ago (2003?).



But management bought it and reopened it as an independent maint facility working on some of the very same planes they did before (business always seems to be good for them - there's always a decent amount of planes sitting there)

But management bought it and reopened it as an independent maint facility working on some of the very same planes they did before (business always seems to be good for them - there's always a decent amount of planes sitting there)

It is now an AAR facility usually with a good mix of Embraer jets and SW737s.

Don't most airports worth their salt do this to some degree? Airports are always seeking more/better service options...

Don't most airports worth their salt do this to some degree? Airports are always seeking more/better service options...
Of course, but in recent years, the Indianapolis Airport Authority has proved that it isn't worth its weight in elephant poo, let alone salt.

Of course, but in recent years, the Indianapolis Airport Authority has proved that it isn't worth its weight in elephant poo, let alone salt.

Amen. It obviously isn't to scale, but I think STL is a good example of what IND's authority should strive for. AA basically left the joint, but between SWA and DL, their airport authority has chased and made the case for some pretty significant service additions by other airlines. They've even enticed AS to start a STL-SEA route and DL and SW have come in and picked up some more of the slack.

In the last two years, IND has been losing notable frequencies to BOS, LGA, DCA (mainly US, but DL, too), SFO, SEA (both seasonal, I believe), AUS, MCI, MCO, BDL, DEN (though F9, UA, SW don't need any more competition on this one), JAX, SAT, PHX. Could be others I'm leaving out, too, but those are the ones that come to mind. At day's end, the current IND airport authority just doesn't have much to show for itself...

Of course, but in recent years, the Indianapolis Airport Authority has proved that it isn't worth its weight in elephant poo, let alone salt.
The whole story is out of touch with reality. I am not sure if it is the writer or the IAA.

115 people go to Asia from Indianapolis daily. Well, they are not going to get non stop service. And they have lots of ways to get there with one stop (to major airports) via Delta or other airlines.

200 people to San Francisco...just isn't very many. All of them aren't going to flock to a single non stop flight on any carrier.

8 AM EST/EDT departure just isn't what most people want or need to the west coast. Sure, some would like it. But most business travelers would need to start work at 8 or 9 in the morning and would be going on the night before, especially on an almost cross country flight.

They aren't gaining (or losing) many customers from ORD or CVG. I love the comments on the Indy Star website from the readings...talking about somebody going to CVG to save money and time. I don't know what planet that person is one as people from CVG have been flocking to IND (and SDF, DAY, and CMH) for years.

I would love to know where they got the part "The service would be worth an estimated $30 million annually". Do they just dream this stuff up? Somebody going to SFO from IND still does it today, they just do it with a connection and an extra PFC (unless they do it via MEM).

Of course, but in recent years, the Indianapolis Airport Authority has proved that it isn't worth its weight in elephant poo, let alone salt.

name one airport authority that is......I'm not sure BAA did any worse than the commission is doing running things on their own

I would love to know where they got the part "The service would be worth an estimated $30 million annually". Do they just dream this stuff up?

It's governmental math......nuff said

It's governmental math......nuff said

And if you don't trust government, there's no need for an authority to hoover up taxpayer and/or passenger funds and redistribute them to carriers on routes that have insufficient appeal to carriers today.

No, that closed many years ago (2003?).


MEM-IND is still around. CVG got cut, however.

CVG-SFO is still being flown... wait I guess you were talking about CVG-IND.

The whole story is out of touch with reality. I am not sure if it is the writer or the IAA.

115 people go to Asia from Indianapolis daily. Well, they are not going to get non stop service. And they have lots of ways to get there with one stop (to major airports) via Delta or other airlines.

200 people to San Francisco...just isn't very many. All of them aren't going to flock to a single non stop flight on any carrier.

8 AM EST/EDT departure just isn't what most people want or need to the west coast. Sure, some would like it. But most business travelers would need to start work at 8 or 9 in the morning and would be going on the night before, especially on an almost cross country flight.

They aren't gaining (or losing) many customers from ORD or CVG. I love the comments on the Indy Star website from the readings...talking about somebody going to CVG to save money and time. I don't know what planet that person is one as people from CVG have been flocking to IND (and SDF, DAY, and CMH) for years.

I would love to know where they got the part "The service would be worth an estimated $30 million annually". Do they just dream this stuff up? Somebody going to SFO from IND still does it today, they just do it with a connection and an extra PFC (unless they do it via MEM).

According to the aticle (would be ineresting to see how they get their numbers) the 115 is people going to Asia for work. I would say that number is low (across all airlines) and leisure is much more...based on my personal experience on UA.

As far as getting into work at 8-9AM and either taking a flight the night before or day of. I would argue there are quite a few people that would love to get into SFO at 9AM take the BART into the city and be in the office at 10AM. The problem with the current system is that leaving at 6AM and connecting to SFO is that you just dont know what is going to happen with your connection where as a direct give more assurance. Most people could argue $50-100 addl for the ticket price being non stop. I cam curious if we really have that much IND-SFO traffic though.

As far as UA not being serious because they are all express now. Well, we dont know how things will go after the merger. This includes the station itself and how the new UA will start directing flight patterns. It would make a lot of sense to start pushing all the UA Asian flights via SFO. Not saying it will happen that way but could be why UA is at least in the discussion phase.

As far as the $30 million anually. I am sure there is a dart board someplace with a bunch of numbers on it and that is how that number was obtained as I dont see how a non-stop IND-SFO would add that much.

name one airport authority that is......I'm not sure BAA did any worse than the commission is doing running things on their own
The financials aren't posted in such detail as they were about five years ago, but it has seemed to me that the BAA did a much better job of balancing FedEx's presence with passenger airlines for distributing rental/landing costs. Granted, BAA was awful with rent prices in the terminal, and the IAA has brought on a significant amount of growth at the FedEx hub, but routes from here started dropping like flies once the local airport authority took over and jacked up airline fees with the opening of the new terminal facility.

It's worth noting, though, that the terminal opened soon after oil peaked at $150 bbl and the recession's effects began to be visible. But it's not encouraging when the IAA's biggest news of 2009 and 2010 was its success in scoring a 2x (or 3x?) weekly service to Branson on an outsourced ERJ.

According to the aticle (would be ineresting to see how they get their numbers) the 115 is people going to Asia for work. I would say that number is low (across all airlines) and leisure is much more...based on my personal experience on UA.
It did say "for work" but I discounted that as inaccurate. I know they can have the numbers that travel between city pairs but they don't know what is for business or pleasure. How many more could it be? What is the total capacity out of IND on a given day on all airlines that have international operations. I just don't see more than a percent or 2 of those passengers ending up in Asia. I have no data on that.

As far as getting into work at 8-9AM and either taking a flight the night before or day of. I would argue there are quite a few people that would love to get into SFO at 9AM take the BART into the city and be in the office at 10AM.
I think this is just not the reality of the masses of business travel. If they are commuting to an office, this might work but there are about a thousand other places people could be going that BART isn't going to get them there or they simply have to be at work long before 10 AM. For example, my job almost religiously starts at 8 AM no matter what location I am in.

The problem with the current system is that leaving at 6AM and connecting to SFO is that you just dont know what is going to happen with your connection where as a direct give more assurance.
While true, I claim that more people are going in the night before and spending the night. If you have a really important meeting, then you would simply never want to risk it.

Most people could argue $50-100 addl for the ticket price being non stop. I cam curious if we really have that much IND-SFO traffic though.
The public votes everyday and they are NOT willing to pay an extra $100 for a non stop flight. Agreed, more business travelers would be willing to pay. I certainly would. For the record, SFO isn't one of my regular stops but if, for example, UA flew the route non-stop, I would still take Delta. The last time I was there, I never thought twice about connecting.

It would make a lot of sense to start pushing all the UA Asian flights via SFO.
If that happens, then it might work. But that would have to be at the expense of capacity and/or frequency to other hubs

As far as the $30 million anually. I am sure there is a dart board someplace with a bunch of numbers on it and that is how that number was obtained as I dont see how a non-stop IND-SFO would add that much.
I don't get it at all. Maybe the airport loses a few passengers to other airports because of no non stop...but I don't think it is very many. I really don't think people in SFO that are destined to IND decide on another airport for this reason either. I am not I see where they get 30 THOUSAND dollars in benefit let along 30 million.

Well here's another gem from the IAA posted in their most recent newsletter:

http://pages.s4.exacttarget.com/page.aspx?qs=5c591a8916642e73474b9017519761d33886a 444e43021f8cfa38c9a5f8d7d77eab0df11e5d3a7d0a6dca86 68f5f7b1ace73d43fb0f7aa74327bb92492a0a1f0970cd697b 71a27858aa968d9839907a0

I suppose what makes me laugh is the admission that there aren't enough travelers to fill a flight to SAN (not sure why this is the benchmark, would assume SFO is much more well-traveled) but if we stretch by golly we just might get there...

And if you don't trust government, there's no need for an authority to hoover up taxpayer and/or passenger funds and redistribute them to carriers on routes that have insufficient appeal to carriers today.

perhaps the governmental funds are the appeal today.....

I suppose what makes me laugh is the admission that there aren't enough travelers to fill a flight to SAN (not sure why this is the benchmark, would assume SFO is much more well-traveled) but if we stretch by golly we just might get there...

Oddly enough, there is more traffic between IND-SAN than there is between IND-SFO. 2010 Q1 data says the daily O&D between IND-SAN is 301 passengers, IND-SFO is 217 passengers (remember, this is both directions, so divide in half to get a one-way average). Even lumping in SJC and OAK only brings IND-Bay Area traffic up to ~340 passengers daily.

Is WN on the IND-SAN route? That could possibly explain the difference.

Oddly enough, there is more traffic between IND-SAN than there is between IND-SFO. 2010 Q1 data says the daily O&D between IND-SAN is 301 passengers, IND-SFO is 217 passengers (remember, this is both directions, so divide in half to get a one-way average). Even lumping in SJC and OAK only brings IND-Bay Area traffic up to ~340 passengers daily.

Is WN on the IND-SAN route? That could possibly explain the difference.

WN flies out west from IND via LAS, PHX, MDW and DEN I believe. Sometimes there's an odd-ball connection via MCI, too.

So why would IAA say that only 160 people fly it per day if the number is 301? I can't imagine that the average of Q2-Q4 would be so drastically reduced that the average would only be 160.

Oddly enough, there is more traffic between IND-SAN than there is between IND-SFO. 2010 Q1 data says the daily O&D between IND-SAN is 301 passengers, IND-SFO is 217 passengers (remember, this is both directions, so divide in half to get a one-way average). Even lumping in SJC and OAK only brings IND-Bay Area traffic up to ~340 passengers daily.

Is WN on the IND-SAN route? That could possibly explain the difference.

I believe that Lilly has some presence in SAN, as well.

So FL just announced they're resuming IND-LAS service. My guess is DL announces resumption of the service a la their BDL plans (1x weekly) as 'retaliation' soon. Here's the FL release (http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1471306&highlight=)...

So FL just announced they're resuming IND-LAS service. My guess is DL announces resumption of the service a la their BDL plans (1x weekly) as 'retaliation' soon. Here's the FL release (http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1471306&highlight=)...
When this route was cut last time by FL, they cited the time of day as a deterrent for many people. And I believe that this was after DL dropped IND-LAS.

Now they're back to yet another redeye coming east and a late night departure going west. This will, again, get cut me thinks.

So FL just announced they're resuming IND-LAS service. My guess is DL announces resumption of the service a la their BDL plans (1x weekly) as 'retaliation' soon. Here's the FL release (http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1471306&highlight=)...

What I don't get is that WN has enough traffic to fill 3 daily nonstops from IND to LAS, but DL can't keep one old NW A320 going daily (or fri/sat only for that matter)...

Are there that many west coast bound WN people changing planes in LAS (vs DEN, PHX, MCI, MDW)? Or maybe that "bags fly free" thing is working... :confused:

old NW A320 going

??? I wasn't aware that NWA still had planes in the air - thanks for the update (you'd have thought 2 years after buying the company DL would be firmly in charge by now, I guess you're opinion is they aren't)

??? I wasn't aware that NWA still had planes in the air - thanks for the update (you'd have thought 2 years after buying the company DL would be firmly in charge by now, I guess you're opinion is they aren't)

You sure showed him.