Amtrak Guest Rewards - New car order for long-distance single-level trains

Amtrak today ordered 130 new cars, to be delivered starting in 2012- single-level baggage, diner, sleeper and baggage-dorm cars. (No coaches for now.)

Details are at http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/hotline/more/hotline_664/

Hallelujah!

Plenty of Amfleet coaches to go around between the Is and IIs. The baggage cars and diners are the most needed to replace 50's era equipment still running. Baggage dorms will free up revenue sleeper space currently being occupied by crew. New sleepers mean even more capacity and perhaps the return of sleepers on trains 66/67, formerly known as the Twilight Shoreliner.

All the old equipment being retired should be a boon to railroad museums if Amtrak quickly disposes of the cars at reasonable cost.

New sleepers mean even more capacity and perhaps the return of sleepers on trains 66/67, formerly known as the Twilight Shoreliner.

God would I love that to happen.

It is wonderful the Sausage King of Chicago to graced our humble forum! :D:D:D

With only 130 cars in the order for 25 baggage dorms, 25 sleepers, 25 diners, and 55 baggage cars. That is barely enough to replace the old Heritage cars and add a sleeper to each overnight train and a sleeper or two to the Twilight Shoreline train from Boston to Norfolk...

Don't be expecting much expansion of new trains. The old Heritage cars were slowing trains on the NEC.. Its a very modest stimulus spending program...

Coaches, lounges, and diner lite cars will still consist of Amfleet IIs on the single level overnight trains on the east coast...

Don't be expecting much expansion of new trains. The old Heritage cars were slowing trains on the NEC.. Its a very modest stimulus spending program...



That's a good reality check, I suppose. It would have seemed as though with an order like that they could, at the very least, bring back sleeper service between Philadelphia and Chicago. I guess the Broadway Limited will continue to Rest in Peace. :(

Without a major political and funding shift, there will be no new trains or routes without state backing.

The new order does mean a significant increase in sleeping car capacity on existing trains, though. And as I mentioned above, hopefully the restoration of sleeper service to the former Twilight Shoreliner from Newport News to Boston.

With half a car being used by crew now, most trains are only operating with 1.5 sleeping cars. I believe the Silver Meteor is the only train consistently operating with 3 sleepers, or 2.5 for revenue passengers. The new crew dorms alone will increase revenue capacity with the sleepers just icing on the cake. ^

Can't wait to see some drawings and designs for the new equipment.

Frankly the biggest change is the fact that the new sleepers will have only 11 roomettes for passengers. Room #12 will become the attendant's room and room #14 which was the attendant's room becomes 2 public bathrooms. This of course means that the toilets come out of the roomettes.

Shower remains in room #13, and the coffee station moves down the hall behind Bedroom B and in front of roomette #1.

The Bag/Dorm cars will have 9 roomettes for the crew, a shower, and two public bathrooms. That takes up just over 1/2 the car, the rest is given over to the baggage area which will have shelves to hold all the bags.

Dining car isn't all that different in configuration than the single level diners already out there. Probably the biggest difference is two emergency exits in the middle of the car and the fact that the end table will accomodate a wheel chair. This will mean that someone occupying the H-Room in the sleeper next to the diner could actually roll into the diner and never leave their chair. It won't help anyone in the second or third sleeper though.

As for routes, it seems likely that 2 sleepers will be allocated to restoring overnight sleeper service between Boston & DC. And I've heard rumors, and I stress rumors, that a B'way limited or similar train via Philly & Pittsburgh is being considered.

And with an almost likely return of Superliner equipment to the Cardinal, that will also free up two more Viewliners, as well as a few Amfleets.

But of course this is Amtrak, a company that has actually printed timetables that have included trains that never turned a wheel, so anything can happen between now and delivery of the new cars.

I really hope overnight sleeper service returns back btwn BOS and WAS. Right now, Train #67 seem to be the student dorm train with all of the coach seats occupied by sleeping students.

Is Amtrak's current long-distance sleeping car service profitable- or at least less loss-making than coach service?

I am just still finding pictures of the Southern Crescent in the '70s with many more sleeping cars on it than the train has today- if the train could do that much first class business in the '70s, it could do lots more today, I'd think.

Is Amtrak's current long-distance sleeping car service profitable- or at least less loss-making than coach service?


In a sense, yes. By that I mean that it covers the added costs of the service, including running the sleeping cars, food in the dining cars, and such. And it makes in incremental profit over those operating costs.

But all passengers traveling by train still receive a rail fare subsidy, be they in coach or sleeper. Rail fare of course being the base cost to travel from A to B. And in fact, the "profit" from the sleeping cars actually helps to reduce the subsidies needed for coach passengers a bit.

This (http://www.narprail.org/cms/images/uploads/whitepaper_sleepers_06.pdf) report from NARP based upon figures from USDOT explains things in more detail and provides the actual numbers.

It's important to note too, that this report was prepared and based upon sleeping car revenues from several years ago, before Amtrak raised prices several times in recent years and before they got more agressive at revenue management. Amtrak is much more proactive at varrying the number of rooms at each bucket level based upon time of year, expected demand, and actual sales during the 11 months that rooms are on sale for. So it is likely that the numbers are even more favorable today than they were in 2004.

This is not to suggest that they really are "profitable" either, but still the bottom lines have improved since then.

And yes, on most trains Amtrak could sell out at least 1 more sleeper, if not more; if only Amtrak actually had sleepers to add. The LSL runs near sold out year round in the sleepers these days. I'm seem to remember something like an average of 85% occupancy on the LSL from 2008. I know it was a high number. So it wouldn't surprise me to find a few of these new sleepers added to the LSL consists to boost the number of sleepers per train by 1. And having the Bag/Dorm will also help the LSL which currently looses something like 9 revenue rooms to crew members.

The old sleepers will probably get picked

up by Ringling Brothers for their 2 trains

And I've heard rumors, and I stress rumors, that a B'way limited or similar train via Philly & Pittsburgh is being considered.

I've heard rumors of splitting the LSL at Cleveland rather than Albany and running the NYC section via the old Broadway Limited route.

The old sleepers will probably get picked

up by Ringling Brothers for their 2 trains

Amtrak has no plans to retire the existing Viewliner sleepers anytime soon. This order of 25 new sleepers is simply to supplement the current capacity and give Amtrak more flexibility, more shop time to work on cars, and hopefully expand capacity on a few trains and perhaps run a new train with sleepers.

I've heard rumors of splitting the LSL at Cleveland rather than Albany and running the NYC section via the old Broadway Limited route.

Yes, I've also heard that rumor too.

Going along with that rumor, is the possibility of the train turning north at Toledo to run up through Michigan and across the highspeed line from there to Chicago.

Amtrak has no plans to retire the existing Viewliner sleepers anytime soon. This order of 25 new sleepers is simply to supplement the current capacity and give Amtrak more flexibility, more shop time to work on cars, and hopefully expand capacity on a few trains and perhaps run a new train with sleepers.

I was referring to the older 60s cars both slumbercoaches

w/ center aisles (but maybe they are already gone)

& the side aisle roomette cars (heavy but sturdy)

I only wish they did some deep discounting for this service

They haven't used the "heritage sleepers" for years. It's all Viewliners on the single-level routes and Superliners on the double-decker routes.

The issue is that they retired more sleepers than they gained with the original Viewliner order, so the single-level fleet is chronically short on sleepers.

They haven't used the "heritage sleepers" for years.

Shows how far behind I am

Was "Heritage" an official title (I"d kinda like to use it myself)

Shows how far behind I am

Was "Heritage" an official title (I"d kinda like to use it myself)

Yes, any car inherated from the freight RR's that was coverted over to HEP (Head End Power) is considered a Heritage car.

And as AlanH noted, all Heritage sleepers have been retired. The only Heritage cars still active on Amtrak's roster are the current single level dining cars, the baggage cars, 5 bi-level cars named Pacific Parlour cars, and one dome car. The first two items in that list will finally be stricken from active duty when this new Viewliner order arrives.

And even the dome and the PPC's are scheduled for retirement within the next 5 years or so IIRC. So far no talk of what, if anything, will replace them.

Yes, any car inherated from the freight RR's that was converted over to HEP (Head End Power) is considered a Heritage car.


Thanks but many (if not most) of the old railroad companies

were not freight exclusive and passenger service was generally

operated as separate divisions (many cars were inline wired)

1 of the biggest problems was the MANY different wheels

Yes, I've also heard that rumor too.

Going along with that rumor, is the possibility of the train turning north at Toledo to run up through Michigan and across the highspeed line from there to Chicago.

Seriously? That doesn't seem like the best way to provide direct Toledo-Detroit service.

Seriously? That doesn't seem like the best way to provide direct Toledo-Detroit service.

First just to be clear, this is a long way from reality.

Next, it's not being considered so much for the idea of providing direct service from Toledo to Detroit, as it is for providing service from Detroit to points east and viceversa.

However the larger reasons for considering such a plan are 1) to get at least one of the LD trains off of NorfolkSouthern's busy mainline, 2) to get the LSL on the much faster Michigan line. Instead of running at a max of 79 MPH, once the new baggage cars and dining cars are online such a train would be able to go 110 MPH across the bulk of Michigan.

Instead of running at a max of 79 MPH, once the new baggage cars and dining cars are online such a train would be able to go 110 MPH across the bulk of Michigan.

"Would be able to" is a hypotheoretical possiblilty

I won't hold my breath (or live that long)

VERY FEW track miles are run at that speed in this country

I believe the top end is 120 (only for the record book)

Aside from the majority of US track condition we really

missed the boat (pardon the expression) when we let

the Swedish ABB tilt train get outbid by Bombardier

I got to ride it over here as well as in Scandahoovia

& on the Queensland line in Australia (pretty slick)

"Would be able to" is a hypotheoretical possiblilty

I won't hold my breath (or live that long)

VERY FEW track miles are run at that speed in this country

I believe the top end is 120 (only for the record book)

Aside from the majority of US track condition we really

missed the boat (pardon the expression) when we let

the Swedish ABB tilt train get outbid by Bombardier

I got to ride it over here as well as in Scandahoovia

& on the Queensland line in Australia (pretty slick)

First, Acela's every day of the week hit 150 MPH in New England for about 35 miles in total, IIRC regarding the number of miles at that speed. They also run at 135 MPH for many more miles of track between Boston & DC. And the Regionals, as well as the former Metroliners, routinely run at 125 MPH each and every day.

Second, while it's not the LSL, the Wolverines in Michigan currently hit 95 MPH on just about 95 miles of track. That should be raised to 105 MPH this year, if it hasn't already happened. And recent stimulus funding will push that to 110 MPH, as well as expand on the number of miles of high speed track.

So you don't need to hold your breath to go that fast. In fact, even now without the LSL making that turn to Detroit, you can still go that fast on the LSL. Granted it's a very short distance, but there are a few places along the Hudson River where the LSL is permitted to go 95. It's held back because of the baggage car and the dining car. But other trains do 110 MPH in those same stretches. I just hit 106.5 on the Maple Leaf 2 weeks ago coming home to NYP.

Assuming your numbers are correct then I'm much

further behind than I would have guessed

I haven't kept up on Acela's progress as they

started w/ so many problems including the

trucks "hunting" at about 120 which must have

been corrected (I paid more attention years ago)

I'm aware the newer ribbon rail (in good weather)

can handle much higher speeds than before

Seriously? That doesn't seem like the best way to provide direct Toledo-Detroit service.
I'm don't thing the concern here is with providing direct Detroit-Toledo service. Putting Detroit on the mainline between Chicago and the east coast, with high speed rail between Detroit and Chicago, would add the millions of residents of southeast and western Michigan as potential Amtrak customers on the LSL.

However the larger reasons for considering such a plan are 1) to get at least one of the LD trains off of NorfolkSouthern's busy mainline, 2) to get the LSL on the much faster Michigan line. Instead of running at a max of 79 MPH, once the new baggage cars and dining cars are online such a train would be able to go 110 MPH across the bulk of Michigan.

True, but by the time you've made it into and out of downtown Detroit I'd bet you've lost all the time you'll save with the higher running speeds. Also, wouldn't they have to turn the train around, or at least swap engines (meaning passengers would wake up going in the opposite direction as when they fell asleep the night before!)? It seems like with the logistics involved, not to mention the extra mileage, it would be awfully hard to even break even time-wise. I understand that breaking even would be an overall gain as it would provide DTW with better options, but I suspect they won't even be able to break even.

While I'm all for providing a direct train btw Detroit and the east coast, I can't see the general benefit of diverting the LSL there. A single train cannot be all things to all people. If nothing else, it seems as though it would be better to peel off a coach or two in Toledo for a shuttle run up to Detroit/Pontiac.

True, but by the time you've made it into and out of downtown Detroit I'd bet you've lost all the time you'll save with the higher running speeds. Also, wouldn't they have to turn the train around, or at least swap engines (meaning passengers would wake up going in the opposite direction as when they fell asleep the night before!)? It seems like with the logistics involved, not to mention the extra mileage, it would be awfully hard to even break even time-wise. I understand that breaking even would be an overall gain as it would provide DTW with better options, but I suspect they won't even be able to break even.

While I'm all for providing a direct train btw Detroit and the east coast, I can't see the general benefit of diverting the LSL there. A single train cannot be all things to all people. If nothing else, it seems as though it would be better to peel off a coach or two in Toledo for a shuttle run up to Detroit/Pontiac.

Well actually truth be told, the train would miss Detroit by a few miles because of how the tracks do connect; it was just easier for me to say Detroit. But if they did go into Detroit, then as you say it would require a backup move of some sort.

Amtrak actually has run the LSL and the Capitol on this route a few times in the past few years because of a major derailment on the NS line. While granted there were no stops made, other than to put on an ITCS equiped engine (needed for the Positive Train Control system that allows 95 MPH running), and the run was indeed faster than going down the NS main. This is what put the bug in Amtrak's ear to have them start considering this idea.

That coupled with the ideas of providing better service to the east from Michigan and reducing traffic on the NS main.

Don't forget about the "Lake Cities"...one of the Chicago-Detroit trains, instead of running to Pontiac, for several years ran to Toledo and effected a connection with the Lake Shore to provide Michigan points with service to New York.

What about the NS threat to downgrade the Kalamazoo-Detroit section to class 3 and 60 MPH account lack of freight traffic? Any developments on this?

Don't forget about the "Lake Cities"...one of the Chicago-Detroit trains
Speaking of this train, why were the Turboliners discontinued?

Well actually truth be told, the train would miss Detroit by a few miles because of how the tracks do connect; it was just easier for me to say Detroit.
So, where would a likely stop be in southeast Michigan?

So, where would a likely stop be in southeast Michigan?

I have no idea if any stops between Toledo and the Detroit area would be considered. West of Detroit however, I believe that any of the current stops could indeed be served if Amtrak wanted to do so. Most likely they would only consider at making 2 or 3 stops as there is no need for the LSL to become a local.

I have no idea if any stops between Toledo and the Detroit area would be considered. West of Detroit however, I believe that any of the current stops could indeed be served if Amtrak wanted to do so. Most likely they would only consider at making 2 or 3 stops as there is no need for the LSL to become a local.
So, probably Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo.

So, probably Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo.

Dearborn (Mich. not the ancient one in Chicago) would be properly positioned to serve as the Detroit stop. It is a modern and staffed station.

"Would be able to" is a hypotheoretical possiblilty

I won't hold my breath (or live that long)

VERY FEW track miles are run at that speed in this country

I believe the top end is 120 (only for the record book)

Aside from the majority of US track condition we really

missed the boat (pardon the expression) when we let

the Swedish ABB tilt train get outbid by Bombardier

I got to ride it over here as well as in Scandahoovia

& on the Queensland line in Australia (pretty slick)

You win the award of "Poster with the Most Incorrect Posts", given all of yours in this thread. I've also taken the X2000 (the Swedish tilting train) from Stockholm to Copenhagen. The Acela has a higher top speed.

The X2000 also had some glitches at the beginning; it would accidentally tilt when the train hit small bumps in the track. (And the whole reason the X2000 tilts is because the SJ, the Swedish railroad, couldn't build new dedicated high-speed lines but rather had to use existing, curvy lines.)

You win the award of "Poster with the Most Incorrect Posts", given all of yours in this thread. I've also taken the X2000 (the Swedish tilting train) from Stockholm to Copenhagen. The Acela has a higher top speed.

Where can I pick it up the trophy

Is that the speed it attains just before the wheels fall off

Those Bombardier train sets have been plagued from the

get go with a laundry list of engineered failures

Enjoy them (hope your boss pays the bill)