Other Asian, Australian and South Pacific Frequent Flyer Programs - Taiwan - China flights

Three Taiwanese air carriers are to begin providing chartered flight services from eastern Taiwan's Hualien and Taitung cities to Chinese cities and Hong Kong, the Tourism Bureau under the Ministry of Transportation and Communications announced Friday.
The services, scheduled to kick off in May, were established amid a steadily increasing number of visits by tourists from China and Hong Kong after the two sides of the Taiwan Strait launched direct chartered flights in July 2008.

The planned chartered flight services, which will allow Chinese tourists to travel direct by air to scenic eastern Taiwan instead of arriving on the west coast and traveling overland, are expected to increase the choices and freshness of tours of Taiwan, bureau officials said.

According to the bureau, Taipei-based Mandarin Airlines will launch its maiden chartered flight from Nanjing to Hualien May 7, and its first flight from Nanjing to Taitung May 14.

Uni Airways will offer its first chartered flight from Xiamen to Taitung May 5, and Trans Asia Airways will fly for the first time from Hangzhou to Hualien May 14, the bureau said.

In terms of the Hong Kong-eastern Taiwan chartered flight services, the bureau said Mandarin Airlines will launch a flight between Hong Kong and Taitung on May 15 and another on May 18, and a flight between Hong Kong and Hualien on May 21 and another on May 25.

Taitung Magistrate Justin Huang expressed hope, meanwhile, that "there will not only be maiden flights but that regular flights will follow

I came across a China Airlines promotional webpage (http://www.china-airlines.com/en/promotionen/index.htm) yesterday and was surprised to see CI actually offering scheduled service to mainland China destinations but as numerous as having Beijing, Shanghai Pudong, Shanghai Hongqiao, Guangzhou, Nanjing, Hangzhou, Shenzhen, Chengdu, Xian, Zhengzhou, Xiamen, Ningbo, Changsha and Shenyang! ;) Now CI has legitimacy to its name!

The Chinese and Taiwanese airlines have had scheduled flights for a while. Cross-straight flights are their lifesaver. Without them those airlines would have asked for goverment bailout (or investments :D)

The sky is the limit for those airlines really; without ANY competition on the direct non-stop mainland PRC-ROC routes because of the political nature of the market (China and Taiwan say it's neither international nor domestic, so no fifth freedom for foreign carriers), they are milking their way to the bank.
For instance PVG-TPE costs 2-3x the price of HKG-TPE, despite the distance is almost identical. With those rip-off prices they can still fill 747 90% full most of the time. Less for other routes but still a lot more profitable than other short/mid-haul intra Asia routes.

For instance PVG-TPE costs 2-3x the price of HKG-TPE, despite the distance is almost identical. With those rip-off prices they can still fill 747 90% full most of the time. Less for other routes but still a lot more profitable than other short/mid-haul intra Asia routes.

Not attacking your logic personally....I always find it funny when the Taiwanese legislators and consumer advocates get on the news and calculate fares based on distance and call on the airlines morals to reduce fares. We all know it does not work that way - on the pricing front and on the moral front :D

I know the total # of flights are restricted by the bilateral agreement... but is there any reason why they are capped at the level they are now? Did the airlines from Taiwan (or China) demand a cap? I would think the airlines from both countries will be very interested in some type of open sky arrangement?

It SHOULD work that way based on costs. Some variance for sure but 100%+ is what I consider to be a rip-off.

All the powers to the airlines when they can charge as much as they can. Obiviously there are enough people willing to pay at the high price level so after all it's not a rip-off by market standards.

I think there only way for prices to drop is to increase capacity. There will be more cheaper seats for sale. I think Airbus A380 is perfect for PVG/PEK/CAN-TPE routes. Ditch the first class and make room for economy. Most passenger traffic are tour groups anyway. I don't see a big demand for business class seats for flights < 3 hours. A380s have enough biz seats to cater to the demand.

Not attacking your logic personally....I always find it funny when the Taiwanese legislators and consumer advocates get on the news and calculate fares based on distance and call on the airlines morals to reduce fares. We all know it does not work that way - on the pricing front and on the moral front :D

I think the shortage of slots at PEK and PVG and SHA is the #1 issue. AA had problems getting its ORD flights to PEK because of the slots.

#2 issue is that the Chinese military doesn't want to open up more airspace. Kind of silly really.

#3 is the pressure from HK goverment. HKG has suffered a big drop in transit traffic and it's lobbied Beijing to limit the number of direct CN-TW flights. This has worked OK I think as CN and TW airlines can charge high prices and HK airlines still have room for survival based on lower costs and location, for flights to places like CAN, Hainan Island and so on.

Lastly China won't give all the goodies away in one go - you gotta have some chips on the table to play with.



I know the total # of flights are restricted by the bilateral agreement... but is there any reason why they are capped at the level they are now? Did the airlines from Taiwan (or China) demand a cap? I would think the airlines from both countries will be very interested in some type of open sky arrangement?

My observation is that airline pricing in the deregulated world is not based on cost - it is based on supply and demand and competition. What I am not sure is if the routes are considered regulated or un/deregulated.

I think many in Taiwan expect preferential treatment from China. The "pro China" side needs it to make the case that China is nice to Taiwan. The "anti-China" side uses any little thing to prove China is up to no good (i.e. sugar coated poison pills).

Yes, AA had the problem with ORDPEK. In the last week or two, Taiwanese carriers also had a huge problem with "non-executable" middle of the night slots at some airports. Some Taiwanese carriers had to unsell some flights after they found out the slot allocations.

It does seem the only easy way to solve this is larger aircraft but it seems too risky / cost inefficient for CI/BR to do so just for the mainland routes. Although unlikely, all these things could be reversed when the political climate changes.

I know the total # of flights are restricted by the bilateral agreement... but is there any reason why they are capped at the level they are now? Did the airlines from Taiwan (or China) demand a cap? I would think the airlines from both countries will be very interested in some type of open sky arrangement?

I would think Taiwanese carriers want open skies more than the Mainland carriers. That is not going to happen. It is a political issue - both sides use this that way and you can't give up the store so quickly.

There is allocation within each side anyway - Taiwan and China both allocate routes to carriers. I don't think that is open skies.

And, in this "neither domestic nor international" setup, what exactly does "open skies" mean anyway?

That's what I am saying - prices are based on demand and supply, but from consumers' viewpoint, normal profit is fine, supernormal is not.

I think CN-TW flights are regulated in terms of frequency and time slots. Pricing and everything else are not. Limiting supply is good for both governments and airlines, despite constant .....ing by flyers, so I'll see the high price level to remain for the foreseeable future.

Open sky is more trouble than its worth for CN-TW market. The politics overrides everything. Having any open sky agreement sets up trouble for WTO and foreign airlines wanting to gain access.

Flying larger aircraft is the LEAST risky and MOST cost efficient way to increase capacity. Just fly big birds on the busiest routes at the busiest times of the day/week. Fly smaller birds otherwise. With big birds in service airlines could potentially drop a couple of flights close to it to keep the overall capacity the same, keeping the price floor. A380s are designed with China and India in mind - places with large population and limited airport slots.


My observation is that airline pricing in the deregulated world is not based on cost - it is based on supply and demand and competition. What I am not sure is if the routes are considered regulated or un/deregulated.

I think many in Taiwan expect preferential treatment from China. The "pro China" side needs it to make the case that China is nice to Taiwan. The "anti-China" side uses any little thing to prove China is up to no good (i.e. sugar coated poison pills).

Yes, AA had the problem with ORDPEK. In the last week or two, Taiwanese carriers also had a huge problem with "non-executable" middle of the night slots at some airports. Some Taiwanese carriers had to unsell some flights after they found out the slot allocations.

It does seem the only easy way to solve this is larger aircraft but it seems too risky / cost inefficient for CI/BR to do so just for the mainland routes. Although unlikely, all these things could be reversed when the political climate changes.