Religious Travelers - Question to my Jewish friends

So, I have this question that I'd like to ask her and this is not to offend anyone but if someone does find it offensive, I apologize in advance.

The question is regarding Kosher meals. I am a Muslim who try to eat Halal food whenever possible. If halal is not available, I go with Kosher because I believe the concept of halal and kosher is very similar and I know many other muslims who do the same. Ok, the question I have is, will any jewish person eat a halal meal if kosher wasn't available or not?

Ok, the question I have is, will any jewish person eat a halal meal if kosher wasn't available or not?

If you are referring to a Jewish person who observes Kashrut, or Jewish dietary laws, the answer is no. There is a lot more to Kashrut than avoiding pork. As far as I know Muslims are permitted to eat shellfish and mix meat and dairy which are prohibited for observant Jews.

For a more detailed explanation, please refer to this Wikipedia® article:

Islamic and Jewish dietary laws compared (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_and_Jewish_dietary_laws_compared)

Definition of kosher meats/meals are quite elaborate, eg including prohibition against hindquarters (in most cases where porging of sinews are not practiced), checking lungs, post-slaughter treatments (salting and soaking). Then on top of that, we have prohibitions on any shelfish (or fish lacking scales), any meat-milk mixture, any secondary derivatives (glycerine, gelatine), bloodspots in eggs, and against insects (eg vegetables need to be checked for bugs). This is before adding prohibitions against foods not prepared by non-Jews and Israeli produce during sabbatical years.

Interesting to note that you opt for kosher meals where halal meals are not available. Wouldn't that be a bit problomatic as kosher food does permit alcoholic beverages? (ie, so long as meat is kosher, beef in wine sauce is perfectly ok by us but guess this won't be acceptable for you?)

Interesting to note that you opt for kosher meals where halal meals are not available. Wouldn't that be a bit problomatic as kosher food does permit alcoholic beverages? (ie, so long as meat is kosher, beef in wine sauce is perfectly ok by us but guess this won't be acceptable for you?)

Yes, you are right. Anything cooked in any wine sauce will not be acceptable for me even though people tell me most of the wine is burnt off during the cooking process. I opt for kosher meals especially kosher meat because it is slaughtered in a way most similar to how animals are slaughtered Islamic way.

Interesting to note that you opt for kosher meals where halal meals are not available.

In fact in most Jewish slaughterhouses animals which have been slaughterd and for some reason aren't kosher (hole in the lungs Etc.) or the parts which can't be used, are supplied to the Halal market (who deem kosher meat allowed to eat).

So in answer to the original question, no.
Unless the person in question isn't too exacting, (in which case s/he wouldn't request Kosher anyway...)

Interesting to note that you opt for kosher meals where halal meals are not available. Wouldn't that be a bit problomatic as kosher food does permit alcoholic beverages? (ie, so long as meat is kosher, beef in wine sauce is perfectly ok by us but guess this won't be acceptable for you?)

Yes, you are right. Anything cooked in any wine sauce will not be acceptable for me even though people tell me most of the wine is burnt off during the cooking process. I opt for kosher meals especially kosher meat because it is slaughtered in a way most similar to how animals are slaughtered Islamic way.

This is an issue that goes mullah to mullah, sort of like how different orthodox rabbis (or LORs, as craz likes to say) will come down differently on issues of kashrut, prayer, etc. The vast majority of even rather conservative Moslems have accepted that the intoxicating aspects of alcohol are completely removed by cooking, and will eat things cooked in sherry and the like. Some won't. That said, as far as the killing of animals is concerned, Kosher methods are always considered Halal, as they are done in the exact same manner and involve religious blessings.

This is an issue that goes mullah to mullah, sort of like how different orthodox rabbis (or LORs, as craz likes to say) will come down differently on issues of kashrut, prayer, etc. The vast majority of even rather conservative Moslems have accepted that the intoxicating aspects of alcohol are completely removed by cooking, and will eat things cooked in sherry and the like. Some won't. That said, as far as the killing of animals is concerned, Kosher methods are always considered Halal, as they are done in the exact same manner and involve religious blessings.


Thats not true and you dont need a Mullah/Imam/Ustadz/Rabbi/LORs (take your pick) to sort it for you

Meat cooked in alcohol is unacceptable to Muslims (Haram?) as alcohol is forbidden for Muslims..and cooking with alcohol is to sort of enhance of flavor
the meat..thus alcohol does not totally disappear..if it did then whats the point of cooking it then?

To say 'even conservative' Muslims will accept food cooked in alcohol is a generalization and a fallacy.

Kosher and Halal are not sets or subsets of each other..one is not the other..they are two different dietary laws albeit from similar abrahamic traditions/religions.

The religious blessings for Halal and Kosher are different...so they are not the same..

My Muslim friends do not consume kosher products...and it is not difficult to get halal or even kosher products now in most places, if difficult go vegetarian :p problem solved.

For those of us who are allergic to shellfish, it is often safer to stick with Kosher food when traveling. Safer than just vegetarian as for some of us the kelp in some vegetarian cooking is loaded with iodine.

Can anyone explain if Halal will provide the same level of safety?

For those of us who are allergic to shellfish, it is often safer to stick with Kosher food when traveling. Safer than just vegetarian as for some of us the kelp in some vegetarian cooking is loaded with iodine.

Can anyone explain if Halal will provide the same level of safety?

No. Shellfish is Halal.

Thats not true and you dont need a Mullah/Imam/Ustadz/Rabbi/LORs (take your pick) to sort it for you

Meat cooked in alcohol is unacceptable to Muslims (Haram?) as alcohol is forbidden for Muslims..and cooking with alcohol is to sort of enhance of flavor
the meat..thus alcohol does not totally disappear..if it did then whats the point of cooking it then?

To say 'even conservative' Muslims will accept food cooked in alcohol is a generalization and a fallacy.

Kosher and Halal are not sets or subsets of each other..one is not the other..they are two different dietary laws albeit from similar abrahamic traditions/religions.

The religious blessings for Halal and Kosher are different...so they are not the same..

My Muslim friends do not consume kosher products...and it is not difficult to get halal or even kosher products now in most places, if difficult go vegetarian :p problem solved.

Some "even conservative" muslims will accept food cooked in alcohol as they perceive the ability to get intoxicated by way of the cooked food as zippo.

Intoxication resulting in alteration of the mind by alcohol and drugs is forbidden to "even conservative" muslims, but alcohol being used in ways that don't result in such intoxication may be another matter and does vary as noted by the person to whom you responded. Good luck trying to get drunk from well-cooked meat sauteed with a a couple of tablespoons of cooking wine. :D

No. Shellfish is Halal.

For many muslims, shellfish is not considered to be generally "halal".

Some "even conservative" muslims will accept food cooked in alcohol as they perceive the ability to get intoxicated by way of the cooked food as zippo.

Intoxication resulting in alteration of the mind by alcohol and drugs is forbidden to "even conservative" muslims, but alcohol being used in ways that don't result in such intoxication may be another matter and does vary as noted by the person to whom you responded. Good luck trying to get drunk from well-cooked meat sauteed with a a couple of tablespoons of cooking wine. :D



For many muslims, shellfish is not considered to be generally "halal".


Is vinegar Halal or Haram, due to the fact that it is made out of alcohol?

Is vinegar Halal or Haram, due to the fact that it is made out of alcohol?

Opinions about that vary: by sect/school of thought; within sect/school of thought (unless a given sect/school of thought is centralized/hierarchical which is not usually the case for most muslims); and by type of vinegar.

There's a lot between "halal" and "haram" too -- but where something falls in terms of categorization may well be a matter that varies by sect/school of thought; within sect/school of thought (unless a given sect/school of thought is centralized/hierarchical which is not usually the case for most muslims); and by type of product/service and/or intent of supplier and/or of consumer.

No. Shellfish is Halal.

I can't trust vegetarian and was hoping that Halal would give me some more food opportunities.

Crackers anyone?

I'm not kidding about crackers. They were a meal option for me on a recent BA flight when both main courses contained shellfish. What were they thinking?

I can't trust vegetarian and was hoping that Halal would give me some more food opportunities.

Crackers anyone?

I'm not kidding about crackers. They were a meal option for me on a recent BA flight when both main courses contained shellfish. What were they thinking?

Well a vegan meal option will be safe from shellfish.

Well a vegan meal option will be safe from shellfish.

On any of your flights have you or anyone else here come across an airline-supplied "halal" meal that had shellfish? I'd love to hear the details about that.

On any of your flights have you or anyone else here come across an airline-supplied "halal" meal that had shellfish? I'd love to hear the details about that.

Considering I don't eat shellfish or Halal, I have not, nor do I have any idea whether or not anyone else. All I can tell you is I have good friends who are religious Muslims who obviously only eat Halal, and DO eat shellfish.

Considering I don't eat shellfish or Halal, I have not, nor do I have any idea whether or not anyone else. All I can tell you is I have good friends who are religious Muslims who obviously only eat Halal, and DO eat shellfish.

I have good friends and even some family who are religious followers of Islam who obviously only eat "halal" and do not eat shellfish for religious reasons, and then I have others who do eat it because they consider it "halal". Wouldn't the airline supply "halal" meals by going for the most common denominator of what passes for "halal" and thus avoid the issue of what foods some may consider "halal" but others certainly do not consider to be "halal"?

I have good friends and even some family who are religious followers of Islam who obviously only eat "halal" and do not eat shellfish for religious reasons, and then I have others who do eat it because they consider it "halal". Wouldn't the airline supply "halal" meals by going for the most common denominator of what passes for "halal" and thus avoid the issue of what foods some may consider "halal" but others certainly do not consider to be "halal"?

Take Kosher meals. Not everybody who eats Kosher necessarily eats everything in the KSML. For example, gelatin which comes from a pig, prominent American rabbis forbid, yet prominent Israeli rabbis permit. I have been on flights where I was served, with the KSML, candy with pig gelatin, even though many of the customers (all the ones following American rabbis) certainly don't eat that.

I have no idea what the airlines do in regard to Halal meals. Just saying that some do eat shellfish and it is POSSIBLE that some serve meals with shellfish or shellfish products. Don't know whether or not they actually do; just saying it's possible.

Take Kosher meals. Not everybody who eats Kosher necessarily eats everything in the KSML. For example, gelatin which comes from a pig, prominent American rabbis forbid, yet prominent Israeli rabbis permit. I have been on flights where I was served, with the KSML, candy with pig gelatin, even though many of the customers (all the ones following American rabbis) certainly don't eat that.Speaking only as one familiar with gelatin candy manufacture, some manufacturers use bovine gelatin (though, because of concerns about BSE, most have switched to porcine gelatin). There are also other ways of making gelatin-like candy, for example, using pectin. Could this have been what you were given?

Speaking only as one familiar with gelatin candy manufacture, some manufacturers use bovine gelatin (though, because of concerns about BSE, most have switched to porcine gelatin). There are also other ways of making gelatin-like candy, for example, using pectin. Could this have been what you were given?

Not sure what porcine gelatin is, though I've never heard of kosher candy using bovine gelatin. Generally, kosher candy makers in the USA use fish-based gelatin. This was definitely pig-based, as the label made clear. Otherwise I'd have no way of knowing. Never noticed a difference in sight, taste, or texture between the 2.

Not sure what porcine gelatin is...

Porcine (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/porcine) to a pig is the same as bovine is to a cow or a bull.

How can gelatin derived from pork be kosher? :confused:

Well a vegan meal option will be safe from shellfish.

Not if it has kelp which has a very high iodine content.

Take Kosher meals. Not everybody who eats Kosher necessarily eats everything in the KSML. For example, gelatin which comes from a pig, prominent American rabbis forbid, yet prominent Israeli rabbis permit. I have been on flights where I was served, with the KSML, candy with pig gelatin, even though many of the customers (all the ones following American rabbis) certainly don't eat that.

I have no idea what the airlines do in regard to Halal meals. Just saying that some do eat shellfish and it is POSSIBLE that some serve meals with shellfish or shellfish products. Don't know whether or not they actually do; just saying it's possible.

You should ask your friends who are believers in Islam what there is between "halal" and "haram" and to which denominations they belong (if any), and then perhaps you will understand why an airline operating on the assumption that shellfish is necessarily "halal" may not be serving a common orthodox concept of "halal" meals.

Not sure what porcine gelatin is, though I've never heard of kosher candy using bovine gelatin. Generally, kosher candy makers in the USA use fish-based gelatin. This was definitely pig-based, as the label made clear. Otherwise I'd have no way of knowing. Never noticed a difference in sight, taste, or texture between the 2.

"Porcine gelatin" was being used as a reference to gelatin created from a body product of pigs.

I've never seen an airline based in the US or Europe list gelatin as an ingredient in a given packaged product and then go on to specify on the packaging what kind of animal was used in the production of the gelatin itself.

Not if it has kelp which has a very high iodine content.

A vegan meal with kelp will have shellfish in it? Or do you mean to say that kelp will likely have a very high iodine content and thus risk the kosher status of the food? For now, I'm presuming it's the latter point you are trying to make.

A vegan meal with kelp will have shellfish in it? Or do you mean to say that kelp will likely have a very high iodine content and thus risk the kosher status of the food? For now, I'm presuming it's the latter point you are trying to make.

I guess you could also try Asian Vegetarian or Vegetarian Jain meal.

Porcine (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/porcine) to a pig is the same as bovine is to a cow or a bull.

How can gelatin derived from pork be kosher? :confused:

Here's a start: Gelatin Revisited | OUKosher.org (http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/5467). In general, there's something about the fact that it's dried out, from an inedible part of the animal, form changes... Can't find the links now to Israeli sites, though prominent Rabbanim in Israel, including Rav Eliyashev do permit pig gelatin.

Not if it has kelp which has a very high iodine content.

Is iodine not allowed?

I've never seen an airline based in the US or Europe list gelatin as an ingredient in a given packaged product and then go on to specify on the packaging what kind of animal was used in the production of the gelatin itself.

Nor have I. I HAVE found "Kashrut Warning" or "Kashrut Notification" where it lists pertinent information about the Kashrut of the food. Gelatin being pig-based as opposed to fish-based in pertinent.

Here's a start: Gelatin Revisited | OUKosher.org (http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/5467). In general, there's something about the fact that it's dried out, from an inedible part of the animal, form changes... Can't find the links now to Israeli sites, though prominent Rabbanim in Israel, including Rav Eliyashev do permit pig gelatin.

Thanks.

I read the article. That is convoluted logic if I have ever read one. Considering the length observant Jews go to avoid even minute contamination, i.e., two sets of dishes and extensive pre-Passover cleansing (Biur Chametz), the explanation in the article makes absolutely no sense.

For example, gelatin which comes from a pig, prominent American rabbis forbid, yet prominent Israeli rabbis permit. I have been on flights where I was served, with the KSML, candy with pig gelatin, even though many of the customers (all the ones following American rabbis) certainly don't eat that.

There are kosher "gummi" candies, eg Haribo and Shneider's Candy Planet, that uses gelatin. I thought kosher gelatine are either fish or bovine (from glatt kosher hide)--just google Kolatin or Eyalon (sp?). Candy Planet has both star-K and R Shneebalg's hechsherim whereas kosher Haribo has Antwerp and/or Manchester hechsher. If that's what they served, rest assured, I'd enjoy them.

There are kosher "gummi" candies, eg Haribo and Shneider's Candy Planet, that uses gelatin. I thought kosher gelatine are either fish or bovine (from glatt kosher hide)--just google Kolatin or Eyalon (sp?). Candy Planet has both star-K and R Shneebalg's hechsherim whereas kosher Haribo has Antwerp and/or Manchester hechsher. If that's what they served, rest assured, I'd enjoy them.

That is not what they served. The candy was from Israel with an Israeli hechsher.

Thanks.

I read the article. That is convoluted logic if I have ever read one. Considering the length observant Jews go to avoid even minute contamination, i.e., two sets of dishes and extensive pre-Passover cleansing (Biur Chametz), the explanation in the article makes absolutely no sense.

I mean I'm sure Rav Eliyashev (among others) has a decent explanation

I mean I'm sure Rav Eliyashev (among others) has a decent explanation

If Rav Eliyashiv allows it, I am sure he has a good explanation for that.
Can't remember the source, but I once heard that (some) kosher Marshmallows are made out of fish gelatine.

The whole issue of Kosher Gelatin is one of the most complex issues in all of Kashrut.

As we have seen above there are completely varied, learned Rabbinic opinions as to what is and what is not Kosher, and I really think that any discussion of it is really way beyond the scope of this forum

Like most matters, consult your LOR (local Orthodox Rabbi) and use a Hechsher that you trust

The whole issue of Kosher Gelatin is one of the most complex issues in all of Kashrut.

The bottom line is that porcine gelatin is food that originate from pigs. Plain and simple. There is nothing complex about it, whatsoever, except for the tortured reasoning why it can be considered to be kosher.

The whole issue of Kosher Gelatin is one of the most complex issues in all of Kashrut.

As we have seen above there are completely varied, learned Rabbinic opinions as to what is and what is not Kosher, and I really think that any discussion of it is really way beyond the scope of this forum

Like most matters, consult your LOR (local Orthodox Rabbi) and use a Hechsher that you trust

Sounds a lot like the whole issue of what is "halal" or not when it comes to meals, where there are completely, varied, learned scholarly opinions as to what is "halal" and is not. Take for example shellfish, which is not generally considered "halal" by a huge segment of persons who are believers in Islam, especially when that religion generally has more than just two categories applicable to food.

With regard to "halal" meals, it's not easy to find the convoluted logic being applied to "permit" porcine gelatin in the food of persons who ordinarily don't eat pig products for reasons of religious prohibition. If anyone has come across a "halal" meal that was designed to be "halal" even as it was knowingly made with porcine gelatin, that would be interesting to hear about too -- especially as I've never heard of such a thing when it comes to "halal" meals. Then again, prior to this thread, I'd also never heard of such a thing when it comes to KSML service on flights.

The bottom line is that porcine gelatin is food that originate from pigs. Plain and simple. There is nothing complex about it, whatsoever, except for the tortured reasoning why it can be considered to be kosher.

I it is not a black and white topic. Magnesium stearate for example can be derived of animal products (thus from non-kosher animals too), but is in many cases made out of vegetable oils.
Even if it is from animal origin, there is room for discussion whether it is kosher or not.
I do not understand why pork gelatin should be considered kosher. Nevertheless, it shouldn't be a problem since we have today gelatin substitues that can be derived from fish as well as vegetable sources such as agar-agar, pectin,...

It's perfectly acceptable for a muslim to eat kosher, not only for the reasons that you've stated but also because of the stipulations outlines in surah mai'dah and elsewhere which provide islamic precedent which regard kosher as acceptable.

The main reason that this doesn't apply to Jews is that while what's kosher is also halal (with the exception of alcohol), what's halal not certainly kosher. Some differences have been outlined above re: eating dairy w/ meat, and specifics of what parts of meat are acceptable.

Yes, you are right. Anything cooked in any wine sauce will not be acceptable for me even though people tell me most of the wine is burnt off during the cooking process. I opt for kosher meals especially kosher meat because it is slaughtered in a way most similar to how animals are slaughtered Islamic way.