A new deal between Jazz Air LP and vacation charter giant Thomas Cook to fly to more sunshine destinations next winter won't kick sand into WestJet Airlines' gears, the Calgary-based carrier said Monday, as efforts forge a code-share agreement with Southwest Airlines Co. appeared to further sour.
Jazz will begin flying six 757-200 jets to the Caribbean, Mexico and Central America under the Thomas Cook banner when the snow starts flying again.
The deal is a first for Jazz, which is dependent on Air Canada for roughly 99 per cent of its revenue.
The partnership, expected to add about $100 million to Jazz coffers, was announced following the unexpected folding of the charter's former partner, Skyservice Airlines, last week. Skyservice had flown on behalf of Thomas Cook's Sunquest Vacations for 15 years.
WestJet is expected to provide summer service for the subsidiary, but likely will see rival Jazz hone in on winter sun runs.
However, WestJet said Monday's announcement won't have an impact.
ByrdluvsAWACO
Apr 8, 10, 12:31 am
That's what they say in public.
Ace Cdn
Apr 8, 10, 3:47 pm
That's what they say in public.
Exactly!
autobrakes
Apr 13, 10, 12:48 pm
I can't imagine why Jazz wants this deal.
The charter business has razor thin margins for air/only providers. Skyservice was just the latest to find out how quickly any hiccup in the economy can snowball into failure. Sunwing barely survived, and wouldn't have without a big injection of cash.
I think you need to be a sched carrier, or at least an integrated travel organization (TRZ) to make charter work. While Jazz has a sched business, it's not able to use the 757 on anything but TC work.
Time will tell. IMO
HangTen
Apr 13, 10, 1:20 pm
Why would WestJet want to incur all the cost and infrastructure involved to operate a tiny subfleet of old, incompatible aircraft with a completely different product / seat pitch/ entertainment systems / meal service and on and on that don't even fit in any of their hangers, that compete directly against it's new and very successful WestJet Vacations division?
I think some people love to look for bones in ice cream!!
:)
LeSabre74
Apr 16, 10, 1:10 pm
I can't imagine why Jazz wants this deal.
The charter business has razor thin margins for air/only providers. Skyservice was just the latest to find out how quickly any hiccup in the economy can snowball into failure. Sunwing barely survived, and wouldn't have without a big injection of cash.
I think you need to be a sched carrier, or at least an integrated travel organization (TRZ) to make charter work. While Jazz has a sched business, it's not able to use the 757 on anything but TC work.
Time will tell. IMO
What's the downside for Jazz? They don't own the 757's and the flying occurs at a time when they likely have reduced flying for AC (dead of winter). So they hire a few extra bodies and lay them off after its over. Training time is probably the most significant expense.
As to WS, its no real impact for them either way. The flying was going to happen anyway, whether it was Skyservice, Jazz , or whoever.
autobrakes
Apr 16, 10, 10:43 pm
What's the downside for Jazz? They don't own the 757's and the flying occurs at a time when they likely have reduced flying for AC (dead of winter). So they hire a few extra bodies and lay them off after its over. Training time is probably the most significant expense.
As to WS, its no real impact for them either way. The flying was going to happen anyway, whether it was Skyservice, Jazz , or whoever.
To bring a 757 into the fleet for six months is a huge amount of work and expense.
You have to add the 757 added to operating certificate. To do that, you need a flt ops manual written, a standard operating procedure, a training program that all satisfies Transport Canada.
Your maintenance engineers need a type course, a maintenance manual, and a minimum equipment list (which is in part based on operator experience on type). Then there are spare parts, at least one spare engine, specialized tools, and test equipment.
Dispatchers will need some training on the new type, plus on WATERS and maybe ETOPS rules.
Flight attendants will need at least a day or two of training on type.
Then there are pilots. Starting with a Chief Pilot, who may not need time in type, but will have to have at least some time in a similar type. I doubt TC will accept the Dash or RJ as a similar type. The first Chief pilot at WJ had decades of experience on the B727, DC-8 and DC-9.
The pilots will need training, in the order of a couple of months worth of ground school, sim training and line indoc. They will be selected by a seniority bid, so he who has been there longest gets the gig. They bid off the RJ, Dash Capts. bid onto the RJ, F/Os bid up to Capt. New guys get hired off the street. After 6 months everybody goes back to where they were and the new guys get laid off.
Next season, the old boys who were Capt. are either retired, or they had their shot at the big iron and can't be bothered to re-qualify. If you have seen an airline equipment bid, you'll know what I mean.
Six months later, the whole dance starts again.
All of the above costs money. A lot of money. I just don't see the value.
DanJ
Sep 30, 10, 2:26 am
Just read elsewhere that WS is planning to wetlease a 757 to operate YYC/YEG-Hawaii for 9 weeks starting in Feb.
TheGreatestX
Sep 30, 10, 9:03 am
Where did you read that?
LeSabre74
Sep 30, 10, 3:23 pm
Just read elsewhere that WS is planning to wetlease a 757 to operate YYC/YEG-Hawaii for 9 weeks starting in Feb.
That kind of smacks of desperation. Why bother to go through that exercise for one leisure destination.
Hypnotize
Oct 1, 10, 1:17 am
That kind of smacks of desperation. Why bother to go through that exercise for one leisure destination.
Kind of like YTZ?
robsaw
Oct 1, 10, 1:33 pm
Only one totally unsubstantiated post on another obscure airline related board on this. Sounds like a rumour in the truest sense.
DanJ
Oct 1, 10, 3:47 pm
Only one totally unsubstantiated post on another obscure airline related board on this. Sounds like a rumour in the truest sense.
Interesting to say the least... How are the line guys taking it? Losing some of their premium flying to another carrier...
I think very well judging by Monday's town hall.
We aren't losing premium flying. We simply couldn't do it in the first place from Alberta effectively with our machines.
Our 737 fleet will continue to do what it does best while hiring and interviewing continues.
This will test the waters imho.
Well, I hope Greg wasn't lying when he said this wasnt the "leading edge of the wedge" or whatever the quote was. I'd hate to see us do this year after year and have it get bigger with more planes and routes wetleased.
If we wanna play with the big boys, we gotta have the big toys (with our guys driving them), or else lets stick to our own sandbox. Hiring other operators to keep up with the joneses isn't ideal, especially if its gonna cause our guys to spend more time in the right seat and slow airplane deliveries (someone said we already deferred 3 planes).
One time deal, okay, but don't expect us to be happy if it's a way to get bigger planes, but not really getting bigger planes, if you know what i mean.
I'd say that the Jazz/TC deal for the pilots is a much better one than the WJ wetlease system given that they actually fly the planes. The way that contract is structured has so far made the pilots happy and Jazz management too as they will save on training costs in the long run. It is interesting territory for WJ to get into, however, and time will tell if it hurts their to-date cautious yet profitable expansion model.
tracon
Oct 3, 10, 1:52 am
A Finnair 757 is part of this rumour/fact.
Now to be a pessimist...
Think of all the airlines that have flown 757s from Canada to Hawaii.
How many are still in business today?
I realize this situation is different.
Hypnotize
Oct 3, 10, 1:11 pm
It's a nine week trial. How many of those defunct airlines were profitable and had the money in the bank that WS has? :D
arf04
Oct 3, 10, 8:39 pm
A Finnair 757 is part of this rumour/fact.
Now to be a pessimist...
Think of all the airlines that have flown 757s from Canada to Hawaii.
How many are still in business today?
I realize this situation is different.
I think it is Air Finland and not Finnair (could be wrong on that but Air Finland tends to do a lot of wet leases). I would expect it would be better for WS if it was Finnair as the Air Finland interiors (so I have read) might be a bit of a shock to WS customers.
My main concern is not whether or not it is a money maker for WS, as for WS the brevity of the contract won't really make a big difference if it does or doesn't work financially, but rather the fact that another operator is flying for them with aircraft that are not configured specifically for WS. For an airline that has built its success on a carefully managed customer experience there is some risk there.
YYCguy
Oct 3, 10, 11:46 pm
What do the interiors of Air Finland and Finnair look like? Are they flashy or trashy?
DanJ
Oct 4, 10, 8:08 am
Here's one shot I found of Air Finland. More boring than shocking, but this might be an old pic too.
http://360hosting.biz/airfinland/
Seatguru also says the Finnair 757 has 28-29" seat pitch.