TalkBoard Topics - Easyjet / Ryanair forums?

Hi!

I see there is a section for Loyalty programs with all manner of airlines listed. Of course, the big European low cost carriers are absent from here because they don't operate any sort of loyalty program.

However, it seems to me that the airline forums are as much about discussion of the airline, it's operations, routes, destinations, special fares etc as they are about the loyalty programs. Easyjet and Ryanair fly over 100 million passengers per year there are at least as many tips and tricks to get the cheapest fares / avoid charges with them as there are with even the most arcane frequent flyer program.

I know there is a seperate "Budget Travel" forum but perhaps you could give consideration to restructuring the forums somewhat and creating a dedicated forum for the two European Low Cost Carriers to help the frequent but unwary fliers avoid the hidden costs and get the best fares..

Keep up the good work! ^

I fully agree, there should be a Ryanair/Easyjet forum in the main grouping.

I agree.

There are plenty of posts about Ryanair and easyJet in other forums. Some of the more knowledgeable - and some of the most inaccurate - are in the British Airways forum for example, out of place and often marked OT (off topic).

A separate easyJet/Ryanair forum - or even one for each - would be a logical move, concentrating knowledge and experience in one/two forum/s.

thanks for the input and i'm full aware of these two airlines, having flown both and visited both to discuss any possible FFP interest.

I like to support the best practices we have here on FlyerTalk and that is to get the member-elected TalkBoard involved in assisting and even making decisions for new forums such as you recommend here. So, I'm going to forward this thread to the TalkBoard forum for additional input from members and as well to attract the attention of the TalkBoard for consideration.

Very much appreciate the idea and thanks for your support of FlyerTalk.

Cheers,
Randy

Budget Travel sounds like the right forum.

Ryanair is one of Europe's biggest airlines. It's the 8th largest in the world after DL/NW, SWA, AA, UA, LH/LX/OS/BD, AF/KL and CZ.

EasyJet and Ryanair are both bigger than British Airways in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_largest_airlines

From http://www.ryanair.com/en/about : Ryanair is the World's favourite airline with 41 bases and 1100+ low fare routes across 26 countries, connecting 153 destinations. Ryanair operates a fleet of 232 new Boeing 737-800 aircraft with firm orders for a further 82 new aircraft (before taking account of planned disposals), which will be delivered over the next 2.5 years. Ryanair currently has a team of more than 7,000 people and expects to carry approximately 73 million passengers in fiscal year 2010/11.

Ryanair are flying some BA services for BA during the current BA cabin crew dispute.

AFAIK, neither Ryanair nor Easyjet have a FFP.

Therefore, I am not quite sure what point there would be for a forum about Frequent Flyer Miles dedicated to them.

True, as pointed out in the first post.

Many (most?) forums in FT don't have a point/miles program yet are integral to FT. An easyJet and/or Ryanair forum could be just as useful to FTers.

It would be useful and logical to have the info currently spread across several forums all in one place.

Budget Travel sounds like the right forum.

Yes, I would agree that the Budget Travel is the appropriate forum. If the traffic increases, there may come a time when a separate forum is needed, just as the Accor A-Club forum was created from the Other Hotels forum. I don't feel we have reached that point just yet.

It would be useful and logical to have the info currently spread across several forums all in one place.Info is not really spread in fora that much. It is true that there are quite a few FR threads in the BA forum but the creation of an FR forum would not really change that because:
1) BA regulars will keep on posting FR posts in the BA forum as users of the BA forum have a tendency to post topics on whatever subject in that forum, even when there are more appropriate fora on FT;
2) most of the BA threads on FR are a variation of the theme of "aren't BA a great airline and FR the pits?" or "Isn't Michael O'Leary the devil incarnate?" variety are are there to comfort the smugness of BA regulars. As such they belong to the BA forum and would feel strange and rather out of place in a dedicated forum.

OTOH, there are the occasional threads in the OEFFP forum that these can be moved to budget travel when needed. It is not as if it is a daily, occurence is it?

I agree with Spiff and Jouy31 that budget travel is an adequate home for these. An additional argument for keeping these within a common budget travel forum is that there are quite a few threads which cover both Easyjet and Ryanair, which could not fit easily into a dedicated forum to either airline.

AFAIK, neither Ryanair nor Easyjet have a FFP.

Therefore, I am not quite sure what point there would be for a forum about Frequent Flyer Miles dedicated to them.

Can you please explains to me more specific info for me? :confused: Do you want proposal to creating new forums? I am still aware of FR & Easyjet will be perfect opportunities to addition more new forums. It will be easy way to do it for our members. Let's the speculating about this one. It will be guaranteed can do it for our members to be approval.

There are plenty of posts about Ryanair and easyJet in other forums. Some of the more knowledgeable - and some of the most inaccurate - are in the British Airways forum for example, out of place and often marked OT (off topic).

Are the posts in the BA forum regarding Ryanair and easyJet moved to the Budget Travel forum, or are they allowed to stay there in the BA forum? {Moderation question removed by administrator}

Threads posted on the BA forum relating to Ryanair are routinely permitted a short airing on BA before moving on to Budget Travel (proviso that the discussion is of value to budget travellers) or News Stand. Much of the discussion generated are responses to controversial press releases by Ryanair's CEO, Michael O'Leary rather than the Ryanair travel experience per se.

proviso that the discussion is of value to budget travellers Which it rarely is. :D

Here's where I see some potential. Ryanair is known for trying to fleece its passengers with fees. FTers could return the favor by pooling our knowledge of how to avoid being fleeced.

Such information would be highly airline-specific. Would there be enough to keep a forum alive? I doubt it.

How about someone start with a Wiki for each of these airlines, or at least for Ryanair? If the Wiki gains a loyal following, then a forum might not be far behind.

Here's where I see some potential. Ryanair is known for trying to fleece its passengers with fees. FTers could return the favor by pooling our knowledge of how to avoid being fleeced.

Such information would be highly airline-specific. Would there be enough to keep a forum alive? I doubt it.

How about someone start with a Wiki for each of these airlines, or at least for Ryanair? If the Wiki gains a loyal following, then a forum might not be far behind.To be honest, there is not much variation between European LCCs on this. Their fee structures are pretty similar. There are of course variation of details (eg: the type of card you need to use nowadays to avoid Ryanair cc fees is different from the type of card you need to use with most other LCCs) but there is already discussion of that kind on the budget travel forum. More generally and outside FT, there is ample discussion of how to avoid fleecing by LCCs on UK consumer sites and forums such as mse (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/beat-budget-airline-charges).

To be honest, there is not much variation between European LCCs on this. Their fee structures are pretty similar. There are of course variation of details (eg: the type of card you need to use nowadays to avoid Ryanair cc fees is different from the type of card you need to use with most other LCCs) but there is already discussion of that kind on the budget travel forum. More generally and outside FT, there is ample discussion of how to avoid fleecing by LCCs on UK consumer sites and forums such as mse (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/beat-budget-airline-charges).

One way or another, FT needs to become the number one source for that information.

One way or another, FT needs to become the number one source for that information.uhh, why? This is debatable, so much so that it has in fact been debated many times on this forum. :) FT's strength, as a reference site, is on points and miles, not on travel in general. For instance, while there are hotel reviews on FT, nobody would seriously argue that FT is the #1 source for hotel reviews nor would it be a realistic objective for FT to become that. You have to know what your strengths are and FT's strengths are frequent flyer, stayer and renter programmes. While this should not preclude members from engaging in other travel-related discussions (as in the budget travel forum, for instance), I don't think that FT needs to aspire to become the #1 source for everything travel-related.

I don't think that FT needs to aspire to become the #1 source for everything travel-related.

Agreed...

However, I will say that one measurement that I do use when I look at forum needs, especially the non-miles/points fora, is whether that need is being served better on other sites. If not, then, depending on the forum topic, I may feel that FT would be a good place for it to find a home.

With this particular topic, I could potentially see a need in the future if an FFP existed for these carriers and if there wasn't a Budget Travel forum or Other European Frequent Flyer Programs forum - but there is. And, the traffic doesn't warrant a stand-alone forum at this time, IMHO. They've got to have an FFP at the very least, IMHO, to be considered for a forum.

What about a stickied thread in the budget travel forum titled "Tips and strategies to avoid being fleeced by Ryanair, Easyjet and other European LCCs"? (ok, someone may come up with a better/shorter title).

What about a stickied thread in the budget travel forum titled "Tips and strategies to avoid being fleeced by Ryanair, Easyjet and other European LCCs"? (ok, someone may come up with a better/shorter title).That would be a matter for the forum mods rather than a TB issue.

Am I allowed to post here? If not delete me, if so, read on ;)

FlyerTalk is not just about "miles and points" programs. The front page of FT says,

It's the hub that brings everyone together -- from leisure travelers to mileage junkies -- to converse about programs, get the latest program buzz or discuss how to maximize points or miles. You'll even get some good general travel information!

Furthermore, anything that helps prevents OT posts is a good thing.

When I went on my honeymoon last year, I flew DL TATL, and both EZY and BA within Europe.

I flew EZY CDG-CIA, then flew BA FCO-LGW. I was miffed a month later when I saw I earned something like 210 miles on the FCO-LGW flight. Considering my EZY experience and cheaper fare, I said, in the thread something to the effect of, "If that's the case, I may as well fly EZY and save a few bucks."

Of course (in hindsight), I was seen as a troll, and the thread took on a life of its own.

I've been known to cause trouble ;) but I honestly would have chosen to post the story to an audience that would be more receptive to what I was saying if such a board were available.

Meaning, if there were an EZY board I could have been saved flamebait/troll accusations and mods would have been much happier :)

Many Many posts on the current forums are not about FF programmes. Easyjet and Ryanair, are two of the biggest airlines in Europe, to cast them into the Budget Travel doesn't recognise that fact. And if you just go on do they have a FF programme, then where do you stand with Flybe.... They have a FF programme, so perhaps they should get a board!!!!

Cheers Larry.

Meaning, if there were an EZY board I could have been saved flamebait/troll accusations and mods would have been much happier :)

Did you describe your experience in Budget Travel? I am sure it would have been well-received there.

Many Many posts on the current forums are not about FF programmes. Easyjet and Ryanair, are two of the biggest airlines in Europe, to cast them into the Budget Travel doesn't recognise that fact. And if you just go on do they have a FF programme, then where do you stand with Flybe.... They have a FF programme, so perhaps they should get a board!!!!


I see very little demand for a Flybe forum. Bob's Pretty Good Crop Duster is about to get a frequent flyer/sprayer program. Perhaps we should give them a board too? And airlines with no FFP should not have their own forums, especially when they already are a perfect fit for Budget Travel.

I would never in a million years have thought of posting in Budget Travel. I would, however, thought of posting in an EZY forum. I will let it rest on that note :)

I would never in a million years have thought of posting in Budget Travel. I would, however, thought of posting in an EZY forum. I will let it rest on that note :)

I guess those poor EZY posts will have to find their own way to Budget Travel, because that is exactly what EasyJet is. Perhaps they can hitch a ride on a RyanAir post. ;)

I thought FR had a kind of frequent flyer programme through its affinity credit card? Or has that now stopped?

(it was a kind of pay for x flights on your credit card, get x flights free).

OK, couldn't resist. A few points, all in respect:

1. Buying reasonably priced plane tickets in itself doesn't make someone a budget traveler. I flew EasyJet between cities in Europe, but stayed at higher-end Marriotts. Is that really "Budget Travel" because I choose not to overpay for plane tickets by 500%? RyanAir perhaps is "Budget Travel", but EZY is no more "budget" than WN, FL, B6, etc. It's a normal airline flown by normal frequent flyers all the time.

2. What about when ORY ground crew went on strike last year and EZY flights were moved to CDG? You would think flyertalk.com would have been a nice place for me and others to be able to discuss and share status of EZY travel during the 3rd party strike, but it wasn't. Let me say this again: as a lurker, I could not rely on a web site called flyertalk.com for news on a work stoppage affecting the #3 carrier in Europe. Sure, it also affected AF, and I could have gone to the AF board, except they're not talking about EZY-specific issues on there. In such situations, I can promise you won't have a chance to tell exasperated lurkers to go to "Budget Travel", as they'd most likely think it was a board for coupon codes, fare sales, Greyhound buses and which hostels in Bora Bora have hot water.

3. The best reason for excluding these huge airlines is the lack of a FF program. IMHO and with due respect, I don't think that's close to a good enough reason to exclude them. Again, just my opinion.

4. It would be useful to create separate RyanAir and EasyJet forums, and I think usefulness is the main reason to add them. Making FT more useful for 110,000,000 annual pax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_Europe) to discuss tips, news and issues on a board specifically reserved for their airline of choice on a web site that calls itself "FlyerTalk" is hard to argue against.

5. Let's be blunt: this same message board has a "Politics and Religion" forum. Including the #2 and #3 airlines in Europe sans mileage programs is much less of a stretch.

Thanks for letting me state my opinion.

I guess those poor EZY posts will have to find their own way to Budget Travel, because that is exactly what EasyJet is. Perhaps they can hitch a ride on a RyanAir post. ;)

Do I detect a hint of snobbery in here, I always thought that was a British Trait!!!!

Do I detect a hint of snobbery in here, I always thought that was a British Trait!!!!

Maybe a little but that wasn't really the intention. My position really is that when it comes to Miles & Points, RyanAir, and EasyJet - there's not much to talk about.

4. It would be useful to create separate RyanAir and EasyJet forums, and I think usefulness is the main reason to add them. Making FT more useful for 110,000,000 annual pax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_Europe) to discuss tips, news and issues on a board specifically reserved for their airline of choice on a web site that calls itself "FlyerTalk" is hard to argue against.

Maybe. Maybe not.

In you opinion, how many of those 110,000,000 annual pax are FTers or will frequent FT?

For the sake of argument, RyanAir is ranked the 8th World's largest airline by scheduled passengers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines#By_scheduled_passengers). There is no designated forum for the 7th largest airline on FT yet. By this line of reasoning from you, wouldn't TB vote on a new forum proposal/motion for China Southern Airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Southern_Airlines) before considering this current proposal? :p

IMHO, passenger load is not the biggest determinant factor w/r/t forum creation on FT.

BTW, Other Asian, Australian and South Pacific Frequent Flyer Programs Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-asian-australian-south-pacific-frequent-flyer-programs-470/) is currently the host forum for China Southern Airlines on FT.

RyanAir perhaps is "Budget Travel", but EZY is no more "budget" than WN, FL, B6, etc. It's a normal airline flown by normal frequent flyers all the time.EZY's slogan, which you can read right on their website frontpage, is that they are "Europe's leading low cost airline". It is a member of elfaa, the "European Low Fares Airline Association" together with Ryanair, flybe, wizzair, vueling, bmibaby, jet2, transavia, sverigeflyg, and norwegian. It very clearly sees itself and presents itself as an LCC, not as a full service carrier. And it is also generally regarded as such by the flying public, whether they use them or not. It may be a much superior airline to FR but it still is an LCC.

If the issue is one of visibility, as has been suggested by a couple of posters in this thread, perhaps the budget travel forum could be renamed the low fare carriers and budget travel forum? imo, it would not be an inappropriate title given that a substantial number of posts in the forum are about LCCs?

I thought FR had a kind of frequent flyer programme through its affinity credit card? Or has that now stopped?
They did. It changed as they now have a new credit card partner, GE Money (in the UK). Current offer is 'Earn up to 5 bonus flights in your first year'.
http://www.ryanair.com/GE/?banner=R05001?banner=276&gemid1=276

EasyJet were contemplating something along the lines you suggest.Thanks for letting me state my opinion.Five useful points.

Maybe. Maybe not.

In you opinion, how many of those 110,000,000 annual pax are FTers or will frequent FT?

I don't think it truly matters how many current FTers fly are among that number. I mean, why would anyone be active in a message board that doesn't cater to them at all? This would be about attracting new users, not so much about serving existing ones.

Enter "Delta Skymiles" in Google. FlyerTalk.com comes up as the #9 result (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=bQr&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=delta+skymiles&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=). All results above flyertalk are either Delta or American Express. That's crazy.


I'm picturing flyertalk.com coming up #3, #4 or #5 on Google searches for easyJet or RyanAir. You don't think that's a huge potential new market for FT?

Besides, who knows if it'll take off? What does it matter? I fly EZY in Europe and I'm very active on FT, and I'm sure there are others. There is really no risk involved. It's at least a worthwhile experiment. Give it a 6-month test run. If it doesn't work, retire the forum(s). Aren't there discontinued forums all over the place here?

For the sake of argument, RyanAir is ranked the 8th World's largest airline by scheduled passengers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines#By_scheduled_passengers). There is no designated forum for the 7th largest airline on FT yet. By this line of reasoning from you, wouldn't TB vote on a new forum proposal/motion for China Southern Airlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Southern_Airlines) before considering this current proposal? :p

To answer your question directly, I could be wrong but I would guess there are more English speakers who fly RyanAir/EZY than China Southern.

On the other hand, if people would use it, if it would make FT better, if it brings in more page views and ad revenue for the site and value for new and existing members, I'm all for adding a China Southern board as well. Why not?

EZY's slogan, which you can read right on their website frontpage, is that they are "Europe's leading low cost airline".

Again: Southwest, Airtran, JetBlue, Frontier, Midwest, etc., etc., etc. are also all LCCs with their own forums.

And it is also generally regarded as such by the flying public, whether they use them or not. It may be a much superior airline to FR but it still is an LCC.

I think you're saying it would diminish the FlyerTalk brand? I don't understand how having such boards would hurt FT; having WN, FL and B6 boards certainly haven't hurt FT.

If the issue is one of visibility, as has been suggested by a couple of posters in this thread, perhaps the budget travel forum could be renamed the low fare carriers and budget travel forum? imo, it would not be an inappropriate title given that a substantial number of posts in the forum are about LCCs?

I understand what you're saying. I think people post in budget forums for these airlines because there is currently no place else.

My position really is that when it comes to Miles & Points, RyanAir, and EasyJet - there's not much to talk about.

If you look at the DL, WN, AA, etc. forums, I would say less than half the threads are about FF programs -- they're about missed flights, complaints, a few compliments, deals, reviews, travel experiences, questions, etc. In other words, about the airlines themselves, not the loyalty programs. Why not have a child or sister section to "Airline Programs" called "Airlines without Mileage Programs"?

First things first. I know nothing about China Southern Airlines. It was just a good counter-example for an argument about passenger load in this case.

Secondly, the logic of passenger load and language preference (i.e. English speakers) doesn't hold too much water on FT (see the preliminary data in my next paragraph.)

To answer your question directly, I could be wrong but I would guess there are more English speakers who fly RyanAir/EZY than China Southern.

The hard data on FT doesn't support your "conclusion."

I just used FT Search to compare "RyanAir" and "China Southern" in all fora on FT. The result may surprise you:

1. Using "RyanAir" as key word, I found 498 threads (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5912131). When requesting "Show Results as Posts", there are currently 493 posts (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5912139) on FT that contain "RyanAir." (A bit odd since post number shouldn't be smaller than thread number but what can I say. It's FT Search (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/technical-issues/787261-search-problems.html). ;))

2. With key words of "China Southern", I found 497 FT threads (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5912195). When using "Show Results as Posts", more than 500 posts mentioned "China Southern" (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5912283) on FT. Since FT search results cap at 500 hits (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13463780-post5.html), we don't know the actual number of posts for China Southern on FT. It could be 1000, 5000, or even 10K.

Not to mention China Southern (CZ) a member of the SkyTeam airline alliance.

To sum up:
Post Count: RyanAir (=493) vs. China Southern (>>500)
Thread Count: RyanAir (=498) vs. China Southern (=497)

So, what do these numbers tell us? It shows demand on FT, to say at least.

I am not necessarily against new forum for a deserving airline (or destination). I just think the supporters/advocates should do a better job to provide convincing data or sounder arguments that will cater to the core mission of FT. I would think that's the merits in the proposals that could win more support from TBers.

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far ^

The idea of a Wiki was raised and if that was a success then a forum to follow. I like wikis but to my thinking, this is the opposite of how wikis are created. You can't ask questions on a wiki - firstly you have a discussion forum and then knowledgeable people contribute to FAQs/Stickies and then eventually a Wiki can be created.

Yes, there are other forums on the internet for RY/EZ. Does that mean that FlyerTalk should not have a forum too? It seems like a strange logic to me. Surely there is room for a high quality forum like Flyertalk to get in on the discussion?

A few people have pointed out that RY/EZ don't have a frequent flier program, but as I pointed out in my opening post - these forums are as much about the discussion of the airline as anything else.

A few people have commented that there is already a budget travel forum and there isn't much discussion of RY/EZ there. Just because people fly on LCCs doesn't mean they are budget travellers. A lot of people use LCCs for business or leisure because they fly to convienient airports or perhaps (shock horror) because they are a whole lot cheaper and just as good as the competition.

A lot of the posts which oppose the new forums sound a bit condescending to be blunt, a kind of "if you want to talk about THAT sort of flying :rolleyes: then turn right and go all the way to the back of the plane and talk about it down there". I kind of expected a bit of that though, I'm not too proud to say that I ride in the cheap seats - at 5 Euros all inclusive for a flight I'll ride in the jump seat if I have to. :)

As has been pointed out, more than 100,000,000 passengers per year fly Ryanair and easyJet. That's a lot of potential growth for Flyertalk. From a purely business point of view, it would cost very little to create the forums and increase your google rank - I can't see how it would do any harm. The LCC business model is growing fast, FT needs to move with the times.

"If you build it, they will come". ;)

A lot of the posts which oppose the new forums sound a bit condescending to be blunt, a kind of "if you want to talk about THAT sort of flying :rolleyes: then turn right and go all the way to the back of the plane and talk about it down there".

Agreed 100% but was trying my best to be diplomatic. As great as FT is, this is the part of FT I cannot stand -- the sense of superiority over those who dare to be smart with their money.

There is no other legitimate reason to exclude major LCCs from FT.

The LCC business model is growing fast, FT needs to move with the times.

"If you build it, they will come". ;)

Agreed. TB would be making a huge mistake if they didn't at least try this.

...[China Southern is more popular than RyanAir/EZY]...

Again, with all due respect I don't think it's a legit comparison. China Southern is part of SkyTeam. This means it's discussed on the SkyTeam board, the DL board, the old NW board, the AF/KL board, the old CO board before they went *A... there is no such outlet currently for EZ/RA. We're talking about making one so they will also have >>500 threads.

To sum up:
Post Count: RyanAir (=493) vs. China Southern (>>500)
Thread Count: RyanAir (=498) vs. China Southern (=497)

I don't know how scientific it is but I tried a search on Google search for FT posts and got these results:

China Southern (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q="China Southern"+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum%2F) 553 results.

Ryanair (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Ryanair+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum% 2F) 3,140 results.

easyJet (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easyJet+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum% 2F) 13,100 results. :eek:

I don't know how scientific it is but I tried a search on Google search for FT posts and got these results:

China Southern (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q="China Southern"+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum%2F) 553 results.

Ryanair (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Ryanair+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum% 2F) 3,140 results.

easyJet (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easyJet+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum% 2F) 13,100 results. :eek:

Great find. I'd never have guessed this. That's astounding considering China Southern is in SkyTeam. You'd think people would have mentioned it in passing on the SkyTeam/SkyTeam airlines' boards by accident more often than the subjects of this thread. The fact it's apparently outnumbered six to 25 times, should say something.

On the other hand, if people would use it, if it would make FT better, if it brings in more page views and ad revenue for the site and value for new and existing members, I'm all for adding a China Southern board as well. Why not?



Again: Southwest, Airtran, JetBlue, Frontier, Midwest, etc., etc., etc. are also all LCCs with their own forums.



I think you're saying it would diminish the FlyerTalk brand? I don't understand how having such boards would hurt FT; having WN, FL and B6 boards certainly haven't hurt FT.As a user of FT, I don't give too hoots about the FT 'brand'. To me, this is an issue for IB not for FT users.
You have put forward as an argument that EZY, etc.. is just like any other airline. What I was doing was refuting that argument. Most European LCCs are NOT like legacy airlines and other full service carriers, something which is far less true of US LCCs. For instance, unlike full service carriers (and most US LCCs), most European LCCs (including Easyjet and Ryanair) are strictly point-to-point carriers, they do not interline, they have very different policies in case or irrops and, crucially for the current discussion they do not have an FFP. This is not true of all Euroepan LCCs. Air Berlin, for instance, although it is generally regarded as an LCC, has an FFP and is generally much closer to full service carriers than Easyjet or Ryanair. If there was a request for an Air Berlin forum, it seems to me that it would be an easier one to accommodate provided the traffic justified it (which is not the case, imo, at this stage).

Easyjet, however, is a different kettle of fish. I have nothing against Easyjet per se. In fact, I do fly Easyjet and am generally very happy with them. The question is not there.

A proof that Easyjet (or FR for that matter) is not just like any other airline on FT is that you could not create an Easyjet forum in the airlines programs section of FT since they do not have a program. You would have to create it under Travel and Dining (and, truth be told, if we were to go in that direction, a sub-forum of budget travel would seem to me the most obvious place).

I would not have an absolute categorical objection of principle to the creation of an Easyjet or Ryanair forum per se. But, since they do not have an FFP, they are "non-core" and, as such, subject to a somewhat higher threshold of justification than core forums similar to other non-core fora.

For now, it seems to me that budget travel fills the function of repository of discussions on Ryanair and Easyjet pretty well. It also seems to me that there is sufficient overlap in discussions of relevance to several LCCs for it to be a loss to fragment those discussions in separate fora rather than keeping them together in one common forum. It may well be that we end up in a situation where FR or EZY or any other airline outgrows BT. But we are not there yet, imo.

The only argument which, in my eyes, has a little bit more weight is the visibility issue (it would not occur to me to post issues relating to LCCs in budget travel) but that can be easily solved by slightly tweaking the name of the forum.

Agreed 100% but was trying my best to be diplomatic. As great as FT is, this is the part of FT I cannot stand -- the sense of superiority over those who dare to be smart with their money.

There is no other legitimate reason to exclude major LCCs from FT.

The lack of FFP is the only legitimate reason this poster requires to say no to the creation of individual Ryan Air and Easyjet FT forums. FT's core purpose is stated well right on the home web page:

FlyerTalk is an interactive community that provides up-to-date information on travel-related loyalty reward programs.

Hmmm. I think its good answer the specific questions for U2 & FR, too. Let's the speculating about this one. I think it would be very good comments for creating new forums is sound good logical choice. However, it's up to Talkboard will have to made decision to be in negotiate deal from Talkboards is subject to voting to start more new fourms on Miles & Points thread. Actually, I think it would be good idea to proposed to create new U2 & FR forums is approval from Talkboard will put on the vote to says Yes to me.

Obviously, I think it will may to be in negotiate deal from our members to have more specifically for me is context to create new thread. This is better way to keep out of Budge Travel forums is not necessary. Final, it will have to decide own facts will awaited for finalized approval. It will be motion passed to startup new thread is perfect opportunities lots of FlyerTalk members will be great additions to get new FR & U2 fourms. It will be great appreciate it for our contributions to start new forums sometimes in the future.

I’m a relatively new member and although read a lot of the threads am not a major contributor. Yet. However, I do feel a lot of well-established members have not moved with the times. I don’t think I’ve looked at the home page to understand the original purpose of the site since I joined. The clue is in the title: it is “flyertalk” not “frequent flyer programme talk”. If the threads were strictly about just FFPs the great range of threads would not be allowed (this morning I have already read about macaroni cheese pies at GLA and the BA strike – neither of these are strictly related to FFPs but do form part of the whole flying experience which is what I want to read about).

I have several gold cards from various FFPs but also fly easyJet and want to easily find threads about LCCs as well. To my mind easyJet and Ryanair are different beasts and deserve their own fora.

Websites develop and change. Their members should too.

Judolphin and Ex Amex Card have stolen my thunder with their excellent posts. :)

The objection some have is that FR and EZ do not have a FFP along the same lines as legacy carriers and we don't need an information forum. That logic doesn't apply to these current forums:

AF Frequence Plus - which doesn't exist
KLM Flying Dutchman - which doesn't exist
Swiss International Airlines - which is not a FFP


I'm not suggesting that any of these should be removed, just that they are not current FFPs and have relevance only as discussions on the airlines concerned.

Then there are:
NW Worldperks (Discontinued Program) which is, er, a discontinued program America West (Discontinued Program) (ditto) USAirways Dividend Miles (pre FlightFund merger)


Given the interest referenced previously, it is difficult to see FR and EZ excluded in favour of these redundant ex-programs.

Well, as for the discussion of opening other forums in the past, it would be interesting to see how many threads and posts focused on RyanAir and EasyJet there has been over the last year. And I am not counting the threads where the mention of any of these two carriers has been incidental, such as the traditional bashing posts in the BA forum ;).

I would support the systematic move of the threads focused on these two carriers to the Budget Travel forum, as a first step, so that we can have a more precise understanding of the trends. It would have two benefits IMHO:
- having a clearer view of the number of threads / day that are really focused on these carriers
- see whether or when they represent a significant portion of the threads in that forum, which would warrant the creation of new forums, just as the Accor forum was created when the Accor focused threads represented more than 50% of the threads in the Other hotels forum.

BTW, the forums mentioned by Roger are sub-forums created for the purpose of managing the merger and co-existence of different communities or airlines within an airline group. They are not on the same level as, for instance, the Delta Skymiles forum.

The lack of FFP is the only legitimate reason this poster requires to say no to the creation of individual Ryan Air and Easyjet FT forums. FT's core purpose is stated well right on the home web page:

FlyerTalk is an interactive community that provides up-to-date information on travel-related loyalty reward programs.

Yes, but also, the end of that sentence:

You'll even get some good general travel information!

Also, are you proposing the Swiss International board be removed from FT due to a lack of a FFP?

I don’t think I’ve looked at the home page to understand the original purpose of the site since I joined.

I hadn't either until yesterday. If we truly believe in those standards, why is there a Politics & Religion forum, an OMNI forum... well, I'll answer the question for you! It's because

(a.) The powers that be felt people would use it
(b.) It makes the mods' jobs much easier by giving OT posts their own forum. No one has addressed this particular point:

I'm sure the BA mods would be thrilled with the opening of these forums -- they could probably start taking a vacation with the time they'd save.

The clue is in the title: it is “flyertalk” not “frequent flyer programme talk” . . . Websites develop and change. Their members should too.

This is the reality of how the site is used, regardless of the verbiage on the home page. I think we all know this.

The objection some have is that FR and EZ do not have a FFP along the same lines as legacy carriers and we don't need an information forum. That logic doesn't apply to these current forums:

AF Frequence Plus - which doesn't exist
KLM Flying Dutchman - which doesn't exist
Swiss International Airlines - which is not a FFP


Given the interest referenced previously, it is difficult to see FR and EZ excluded in favour of these redundant ex-programs.

This is why I want to know the real reason some of we Titanium Elite Executive Diamond Enterprise Medallion 1K A-List Club Gold Members are seemingly allergic to giving even a nod towards LCCs. Every reason I've heard so far to exclude them has extremely compelling counter-examples even within FT (13,000 Google hits for easyJet on FT.com? Holy cow, how can we ignore this?).

Well, as for the discussion of opening other forums in the past, it would be interesting to see how many threads and posts focused on RyanAir and EasyJet there has been over the last year. And I am not counting the threads where the mention of any of these two carriers has been incidental, such as the traditional bashing posts in the BA forum ;).

See my results below... as for the bashing threads, those should not ever live on the BA board. They should simply be moved to the Ryanair/easyJet forums ;) Again, ask the BA mods what they think of this idea.

- having a clearer view of the number of threads / day that are really focused on these carriers
- see whether or when they represent a significant portion of the threads in that forum, which would warrant the creation of new forums, just as the Accor forum was created when the Accor focused threads represented more than 50% of the threads in the Other hotels forum.


I think searching for the airline within the title is a good way to measure this for airlines without a forum.

You could reasonably say a large percentage of U2 threads would have easyJet in the title, but most DL threads would not have "Delta" in the title because it would usually be redundant.

These numbers only includes pages where the name of the airline is contained within the thread title.

easyJet (http://tinyurl.com/yzfbo3j): 687
Ryanair (http://tinyurl.com/yfov2tl): 1460
China Southern (http://tinyurl.com/ygxgoq8) (a SkyTeam airline without a forum): 335

Again: over 2100 hits for these two airlines within thread titles. Imagine if they actually had their own forum(s).

If you create the forums and I and others who agree with me are wrong, just close the forum! No harm done, experiments don't have to come with guarantees. It's not like there's some huge outlay of capital to build the easyJet forum's factory. It's a message board.

...[China Southern is more popular than RyanAir/EZY]...

:confused:Please tell me where did I type that in post#35: signed: lin821

Again, with all due respect I don't think it's a legit comparison. China Southern is part of SkyTeam. This means it's discussed on the SkyTeam board, the DL board, the old NW board, the AF/KL board, the old CO board before they went *A... there is no such outlet currently for EZ/RA. We're talking about making one so they will also have >>500 threads.
(Bolding were words I never said)

If you are going to quote my post/s, I would appreciate you don't mis-quote me. I didn't say any of the words you inserted in the above quote. Nor did I mean what you said. Not only did you misunderstand my post, but also you mis-represented my post. The latter part is actually against FT's policy (link (http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#q81) to this policy).

You also failed to understand how FT search works.

It seems to me you had difficulty understanding my rebuttal to your logic of reasoning. Let me try again.

1. You had used the passenger number (from Wikipedia) to support your argument for a standalone RyanAir Forum (see your quoted "110,000,000 annual pax" post#28). I then used the same source (Wikipedia) to prove to you there was another larger airline (in this case, China Southern) that carried more passengers than RyanAir and China Southern didn't/doesn't have its own I was/am NOT proposing China Southern to have its own FT forum (as a matter of fact, I don't really care if CZ has its own forum on FT.) So passenger load is not the (absolute) deciding factor of forum creating on FT.

2. Instead of finding other stronger selling points for RyanAir, you then focused on China Southern Airlines and assuming more Englisher speakers flew RyanAir than CZ (see post#34). I didn't know if it's true but I was able to provide evidence to you (in post#35) that spoken language/s was not at issue. I gave you real data that the traffic of China Southern on FT was heavier than RyanAir in my preliminary search using FT Search tool in post#35.

3. Instead of refining your own argument of passenger load and language usage, you made your "selling" point a moving target again to the "popularity" criterion (and misquoting me as a result). This is NOT a popularity contest. The data only show (existing) traffic on FT. If you had investigated further in TB Topics Forum, you would have known that TBers didn't/don't use a singular quantitative matrix to consider forum proposals. Heavy traffic does help though, just see what happened to the recent Accor A-Club Forum.

There are many other factors to support creation of a new forum on FT. That's why you don't see TB consider forum proposals nor approve motions on new fora every other week. ;)

4. Giving the history of both RyanAir and China Southern Airlines, both of them are "old" enough to "prove" their existence on FT by FTers, present and past. But neither of them make the cut to be a single forum (yet). That did/doesn't stop RyanAir and China Airlines being discussed on FT. RyanAir posts are mainly in Budget Travels Forum, just like China Southern in Other Asian, Australian and South Pacific Frequent Flyer Programs Forum. Posts about both airlines are also scattered in other fora on FT at the same time, while posts on China Southern are >>500.

5. I suspect with the "relatively" low count of posts/threads of RyanAir using FT Search, passengers of RyanAir may have found other website/s to fulfill their needs to discuss or search info for RyanAir. Should FT compete with the other website/s for RyanAir? Would a single RyanAir forum win those potential 110,000,000 annual RyanAir customers over? Do regular RyanAir customers think the same (or similar) as average FTers? Would regular RyanAir customers be the target population for IB? Would a RyanAir Forum bring in more traffic for FT and more business for IB?

Well, I don't have a crystal ball nor am I a psyche. I don't have the answers and don't know what are the other websites for RyanAir either. I also don't have a clear picture whether RyanAir customers are interested in the same miles/points/travel pursuits as FTers. I would think for those who are in favor of a RyanAir forum should do more thorough research then come up with a more convincing proposal that can address all these "more important" issues.

BTW, the the preliminary data I presented in my search was based on the existing posts/threads in ALL FORA on FT. That applied to both search terms "RyanAir" and "China Southern."

See my results below... as for the bashing threads, those should not ever live on the BA board. They should simply be moved to the Ryanair/easyJet forums ;) Again, ask the BA mods what they think of this idea.

I was referring to posts within threads that do not have EasyJet or Ryanair as their main topic.

These numbers only includes pages where the name of the airline is contained within the thread title.

easyJet (http://tinyurl.com/yzfbo3j): 687
Ryanair (http://tinyurl.com/yfov2tl): 1460
China Southern (http://tinyurl.com/ygxgoq8) (a SkyTeam airline without a forum): 335

Over what period of time ? Even if it was only within a year, fewer than two threads per day would not seem to justify a specific forum for Easyjet, as was discussed for other proposed forums in the past.

If you create the forums and I and others who agree with me are wrong, just close the forum! No harm done, experiments don't have to come with guarantees. It's not like there's some huge outlay of capital to build the easyJet forum's factory. It's a message board.
This argument has been made for other proposed forums as well in the past. I don't really see a reason for changing the rationale just because it is about EasyJet or Ryanair.

(Bolding were words I never said)

. . . The latter part is actually against FT's policy (link (http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#q81) to this policy).


Wow, that was ridiculous. I will unsubscribe from the thread and exit on that note.

I was referring to posts within threads that do not have EasyJet or Ryanair as their main topic.


Over what period of time ? Even if it was only within a year, fewer than two threads per day would not seem to justify a specific forum for Easyjet, as was discussed for other proposed forums in the past.


This argument has been made for other proposed forums as well in the past. I don't really see a reason for changing the rationale just because it is about EasyJet or Ryanair.

Even though I disagree with you and feel it would be good to try the EZY/Ryanair, your position is very reasonable and logical. Thanks for being civil in disagreement.

First things first. I use Google more often than FT search. I also know, without refining the search parameter, results can be recounted in Google key-word per search.

Post Count: RyanAir (=493) vs. China Southern (>>500)
Thread Count: RyanAir (=498) vs. China Southern (=497)I don't know how scientific it is but I tried a search on Google search for FT posts and got these results:

China Southern (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q="China Southern"+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum%2F) 553 results.

Ryanair (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Ryanair+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum% 2F) 3,140 results.

easyJet (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=easyJet+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum% 2F) 13,100 results. :eek:
The fact it's apparently outnumbered six to 25 times, should say something.

Did you try use "CZ" for China Southern in Google search as well? Quite a few FTers refer China Southern as CZ.

(1). CZ on FT/forum (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=CZ+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) using Google/ncr: 1020

(2). "China Southern" on FT/forum (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22China+Southern%22+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2F forum&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) using Google/ncr: 557

(3). RyanAir on FT/forum (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=RyanAir+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) using Google/ncr: 3160

(4). easyJet on FT/forum (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=easyJet+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) using Google/ncr: 1800 (quite different from Ex Amex Card's. Did you happen to make a typo on 131,00 or something? :confused:)

ps. Don't add up (1) & (2) since they can be overlapping of the same airline.
pps. the 3160 results in (3) are not necessarily mutually exclusive (meaning some, or even many, of them can be the same posts/threads). Same applies to (1), (2), & (4).

I don't know how many of the Google results are mutually exclusive but I do know FT search, even though not perfect, gives you exclusive results per FT Search:

"CZ" search as threads on all FT fora (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916166) using FT Search: 499 threads
"CZ"search as posts on FT (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916185) using FT Search: 497 posts
"China Southern" search as threads on all FT fora (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916202) using FT Search: 497 threads
"China Southern" search as posts on all FT fora (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916221) using FT Search: >>500 posts

RyanAir search as threads on all FT fora (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916511) using FT Search: 498 threads
RyanAir search as posts on all FT fora (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916520) using FT Search: 497 posts

Per thread title search:
RyanAir as keyword in thread titles (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916282) on all FT fora: 490 threads
"China Southern" as keyword in thread titles (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916315) on all FT fora: 191 threads
CZ as keyword in thread titles (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5916333) on all FT fora: 103 threads


easyJet (http://tinyurl.com/yzfbo3j): 687
Ryanair (http://tinyurl.com/yfov2tl): 1460
China Southern (http://tinyurl.com/ygxgoq8) (a SkyTeam airline without a forum): 335

Whether RyanAir's numbers are good enough indicators for its own forum is up to TBers.

ETA:
ps. I didn't specify the date ranges for my preliminary FT searches. I just double checked and it seems my search results from performing FT Search are only backdated to mid-2007. I suspect FT search automatically stops feeding older posts/threads when the results are hitting close to the 500 cap.

A further examination and analysis of FT post/threads on RyanAir/easyJet over the years (and possibly cross different duration should be conducted by those who are interested, so TBers can learn more about the true data.

Also, are you proposing the Swiss International board be removed from FT due to a lack of a FFP?

Is this the same Swiss who is part of the Star Alliance and participates in the Miles & More FFP. (http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/miles_and_more/Pages/miles_more.aspx) That Swiss? Sorry unlike the LCC's Swiss is not lacking a FFP even though it may not be their own exclusive version.

And as JOUY31 notes Swiss doesn't even have its own forum but rather is a subforum because of its LH ownership:

BTW, the forums mentioned by Roger are sub-forums created for the purpose of managing the merger and co-existence of different communities or airlines within an airline group. They are not on the same level as, for instance, the Delta Skymiles forum.

Wow, that was ridiculous. I will unsubscribe from the thread and exit on that note.
Yap, good sport, after you mis-representing other's post. When I called you out, I became ridiculous? :rolleyes:

Nobody's perfect and we tend to misunderstand each other from time to time. But citing other's posts then replacing the whole content with your own words, that's mis-quoting and mis-representation. I do mind being mis-represented by others. That's a principle thingy. If you had elaborated your (mis)understanding of my post in your own reply, I would have been able to re-explain myself to you without referencing FT's policy.

This is a discussion thread for open debate. FTers are able to engage in civil discussion on the pros and cons of topics at hand without any personal attack. There's no need to get emotional when others disagree or find flaws in your logic. You also have to understand what others are really saying in order to refine or further your pro position for a RyanAir forum.

I gave my arguments with hard data in this thread. Quite a few savvy & established FTers already stated very clearly why they didn't/don't think RyanAir is ready for a forum on FT. I think I read enough TB Topics Forum to understand why and how certain forum proposals make into motions then succeed.

IMHO, RyanAir isn't there yet. I see no problem having Budget Travel Forum as home base for LCCs on FT.

I’m a relatively new member and although read a lot of the threads am not a major contributor. Yet. However, I do feel a lot of well-established members have not moved with the times. I don’t think I’ve looked at the home page to understand the original purpose of the site since I joined. The clue is in the title: it is “flyertalk” not “frequent flyer programme talk”. If the threads were strictly about just FFPs the great range of threads would not be allowed (this morning I have already read about macaroni cheese pies at GLA and the BA strike – neither of these are strictly related to FFPs but do form part of the whole flying experience which is what I want to read about).

I have several gold cards from various FFPs but also fly easyJet and want to easily find threads about LCCs as well. To my mind easyJet and Ryanair are different beasts and deserve their own fora.

Websites develop and change. Their members should too.

This well-established member has seen this website develop and change and this forum is proof that still happens. And I would disagree with the contention that well-established members resists change as I only resist change for change sake. Give me what I feel are good enough reasons and you'll have my support for a new forum but IMHO I'm not there yet with the suggestion as made. Were it to come down to creating a sub-forum of the existing Budget Travel forum strictly for LCC's without FFP's then that would be something I could support.

FWIW as a relatively new member you may be unaware that there have been many suggestions for FT to broaden out to become a wider community with proposed forums for dating, photography, private clubs, international sporting/Olympics, spas, health & fitness and many more if you care to browse TB Topics thread titles. FT trying to be all things to almost every member is IMHO a recipe for losing focus on what brought us all here in the first place: travelling and FFP.

And yes, there already is a fairly wide choice of non-FFP/FFM forums so that is more evidence that change has happened here at FT but I see nothing wrong with trying to manage that process for the long-term benefit of the site. As the FT saying goes YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) but those are my well-established member thoughts on the proposal as made and I would encourage other relatively new members to offer their input on these discussions on this forum as they do help shape the future FT direction.

I'm not going to join in the name-calling but would just observe that putting text in square brackets - [ ..... ] - is often used for explanatory info, for example by moderators in thread titles. Square brackets are not quotations.

Also, using CZ as well as China Southern in totals is muddying the waters and IMO could produce a dubious result. Are you going to include typos as well? Would you include FR, EZY, EZ, U2, Ryannair, Ryan Air in your numbers? All of these and more have been used in FT posts.

Would you include FR, EZY, EZ, U2, Ryannair, Ryan Air in your numbers? All of these and more have been used in FT posts.

If a further analysis on RyanAir's presence on FT would help TBers, I would say go for it. The burden should be upon the shoulders of the pro camp to justify the creation of RyanAir Forum on FT. Number is not everything but numbers speak. Since statistics can be manipulated and misleading at times, sound research is must when playing number games. All I am saying is choose your weapon wisely when it comes to numbers.

When LCCs and RyanAir have no FFPs to attract miles/points enthusiasts, this proposal needs to build a strong case for RyanAir with other better fitting criteria to gain support from fellow FTers and TBers.

A couple of days ago, I felt passionate about this, it struck me, and you can tell by my posts, as being totally relevant to provide forums for these two airlines, because of their significance in the European market. Now I have totally lost the will to live, I have a life to get on with and boy is this a place that encourages Banging One's Head Against the Wall!!!!

:td::td::td:

No doubt I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't know how this is decided, (I don't have time to look up all the rules), but could someone in power decide, or put the wheels in motion - to decide, Yes you can have the forums, or No you can't and close the thread, and I can move on to more important things like - Do I need to get more milk or can I manage with what I've got before my flight to Dallas on Saturday!!!!!!!!!

No doubt I'll get flamed for saying this, but I don't know how this is decided, (I don't have time to look up all the rules),

You don't have to look it up. The sticky thread on top of TalkBoard Topics Forum explains very well how things work in two posts. Two very long posts, may I add.

What is the TalkBoard and How are New Forums and Other Suggestions Considered? (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/918161-what-talkboard-how-new-forums-other-suggestions-considered.html)

but could someone in power decide, or put the wheels in motion - to decide, Yes you can have the forums, or No you can't and close the thread, and I can move on to more important things like - Do I need to get more milk or can I manage with what I've got before my flight to Dallas on Saturday!!!!!!!!!

There is democracy on FT, represented by 9 elected TBers on board. TBers vote on motions. A motion passes if two-thirds of TBers vote in favor. TBers don't vote on proposals. A proposal becomes a (votable) motion when one TBer makes a motion and another TBer seconds it in the private TB Forum. Meaning a proposal needs support from at least two TBers to get started.

This is a discussion thread for a forum proposal. If FTers don't discuss the pros and cons in say proposals, how can our elected TBers get input from fellow FTers? I don't think our TBers would make up their minds in the dark nor vote in blindfold. Why close a thread when the discussion isn't over?

This is the process in TB Forum on FT. As a FTer, you can decide if you want to participate (or not) and the degree of participation in discussion. You can choose to understand the TB rules (or not). You may even contact individual TBers privately to win them over, if you so choose.

Speaking for myself, I didn't know nor understand how TB worked nor FT operated until about 4-5 years ago. An issue regarding a forum that I frequented was served on TB's table. It didn't take long before I "educated" myself about TB and FT. That has helped me tremendously in taking part of discussion in TB Topics Forum.

FT is very special. There are quite a few devoted FTers on board. If you think moving on to other part of your life is more bearable and important than sitting through a TB proposal, please do what your heart desires. :)

Did you try use "CZ" for China Southern in Google search as well? Quite a few FTers refer China Southern as CZ.

Be aware that CZ is also the ISO two letter country code for the Czech Republic... :)

(4). easyJet on FT/forum (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=easyJet+site%3Awww.flyertalk.com%2Fforum&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) using Google/ncr: 1800 (quite different from Ex Amex Card's. Did you happen to make a typo on 131,00 or something? :confused:)

Quite possible, it was a quick and dirty search. When I click on the link I posted, the numbers match your ones so I don't know what happened there. I must have made a mistake or Google is up to some mischief.

As I said, it was pretty unscientific study. :eek:

There is democracy on FT, represented by 9 elected TBers on board. TBers vote on motions. A motion passes if two-thirds of TBers vote in favor. TBers don't vote on proposals. A proposal becomes a (votable) motion when one TBer makes a motion and another TBer seconds it in the private TB Forum. Meaning a proposal needs support from at least two TBers to get started.

OK, so from the sounds of the opinions of the TB board members this proposal isn't going to get off the ground (so to speak), let alone be voted in.

Really, the airline forums are an elitist group for high status frequent fliers or those who aspire to the status. I'm sure most of them do fly with LCCs from time to time but many of them don't want to admit it, let alone discuss it in the same forum for fear of losing face.

The low cost carriers don't fit in with the demographic here. I'll stick with FT because I get some really useful information (though I don't post that often anymore) but look elsewhere for a forum for frequent fliers of the LCCs.

It was a pretty off the wall post in the first place but unless we have a strong consensus then we should just move on - the discussion has run it's course.

Thanks to all who participated, especially to those who kept their cool and made their points so eloquently. ^

lin821 thanks for the info on how the TB system works, I found that helpful. Thanks for taking the time to post all that information.

I still get the feeling is that the answer to the OP's topic is.

"The computer says NO."

Cheers Larry.

I'm not going to join in the name-calling but would just observe that putting text in square brackets - [ ..... ] - is often used for explanatory info, for example by moderators in thread titles. Square brackets are not quotations.

And I would disagree as IMHO it serves to change the meaning or words of a quote while still attributing it to the other member as it still says Originally Posted by and the other members FT handle.

OK, so from the sounds of the opinions of the TB board members this proposal isn't going to get off the ground (so to speak), let alone be voted in.

Actually you haven't "heard" all 9 TBers speak up in this proposal thread yet. Maybe in the private TB Forum, some of them are considering making this proposal a motion. Maybe there is more than 1 secret TB supporter. You never know. But if you do think RyanAir is deserving but give up with a well-thought forum proposal now, you'll never get to see a RyanAir Forum on FT. That I am sure.

Well, I take that back. You'll know for sure if this proposal makes it to the table because there will be a public announcement/thread about a TB motion on this TB Topics Forum. We just don't know when. ;)

See if reading my post in another airline forum proposal thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13342197-post35.html) would help you come up with a better strategy for advocating RyanAir forum. Good luck!

lin821 thanks for the info on how the TB system works, I found that helpful. Thanks for taking the time to post all that information.

You are very welcome. :)

And I would disagree as IMHO it serves to change the meaning or words of a quote while still attributing it to the other member as it still says Originally Posted by and the other members FT handle.

That's my point about mis-quote and misrepresentation. Even though I have no intention to drag this OT issue any further, I thank you for understanding where I was/am coming from.

And I would disagree as IMHO it serves to change the meaning or words of a quote while still attributing it to the other member as it still says Originally Posted by and the other members FT handle.

I want to defend myself, apologize, and speak to the possible creation of this/these boards once more:

First: Brackets in a quote means the person didn't actually say those words. The fact the whole "quote" was in brackets should make it obvious that it wasn't really a quote but a paraphrase. I didn't think much about it, I just realized my post was really long, I was quoting someone for several paragraphs a post or 2 above me, and thought I'd just paraphrase the section I was responding to. I had no idea it would become a federal case.

That said, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I disagree that I changed the meaning of what the poster said, but my opinion truly doesn't matter in this case; I regret that the poster I was responding to was angered by what I did, I really do.

In the future, if a non-moderator thinks I broke a rule, I would ask to be PMed rather than to be embarrassed and chastised publicly.

Back on topic:

JOUY31 stated he/she would be for RyanAir/EasyJet forums as subforums of Budget Travel. I think that would be a spectacular idea. It's a compromise that, to me, actually makes more sense than either (a.) putting it under "Mileage Programs" or (b.) excluding them altogether.

I am not a frequent flyer of either airline, so my interest is the interest of FT. I like FT a lot, and want it to come up on the front page when someone Googles the #8 airline in the world. I want to be able to rely on FT for information from fellow pax when flying a large airline while in Europe. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

How does one present a proposal to TB?

How does one present a proposal to TB?

That's what this thread is.

JOUY31 stated he/she would be for RyanAir/EasyJet forums as subforums of Budget Travel. I think that would be a spectacular idea. It's a compromise that, to me, actually makes more sense than either (a.) putting it under "Mileage Programs" or (b.) excluding them altogether.

Actually I think it was me that suggested the subforum idea while JOUY31 suggested consolidating things within the Budget Travel forum:

I would support the systematic move of the threads focused on these two carriers to the Budget Travel forum, as a first step, so that we can have a more precise understanding of the trends.

As to the other thing, I'm not a big fan of paraphrasing but am glad you adressed the issue and rejoined the thread to offer your opinion on the thread topic. :)

judolphin highlighted this thread to me. Though I sense he/she might not like what follows.

Prospero has already explained our MO for EZY/FR threads. In terms of volume we might get 1 thread every 2-3 weeks on the subject on BA which would qualify for the proposed forum. On that basis, along with the absence of FFP and the perfectly acceptable budget travel forum I can't see any real need for the proposed new, seperate fora.

Whilst normally very in favour of new forums on the 'build it and they will come' theory, I am in two minds about this one, because it exposes the limitations of the FT category system.

If you have a question about EasyJet ex-UK, you could post it a) OT in the BA forum, b) UK and Ireland or c) budget travel. Possibly even d) Other European Airlines. You would get a response in any of those forums - ironically, the biggest response would be if you did a) even though that is the worst place for it. I'm not sure that creating a further option e) helps.

At the end of the day, with no FF programme to disect, the number of EZ / FR queries is relatively finite, relating to the intricacies of the fare structures and the in-flight experience. Once you've got that out of the way I'm not sure what is left.

What I WOULD like to see (and this is going off topic) is better linkage of related forums. There should be, for example, a quick link on the BA board to the 'UK and Ireland' forum, plus possible 'Budget Travel'. This would reduce the number of OT threads in all forums.

If a post gets moved, it still appears in the original forum with a Moved: tag in front of it... so if a U2 or FR post gets moved to Budget Travel, can't visitors of the BA forum (or whichever other forum it starts in) still be able to weigh in on it if they have insight on the topic at hand? I'm not sure why that's not sufficient if we stay status quo.

That said, I would be interested in seeing a forum for LCCs without FFPs either as a subforum under Budget Travel or standing on its own.

Having been a relatively frequent EZ flyer over the past year (in fact more so than any other airline - I'd have earned top tier status if they actually had a FFP) I'd be perfectly happy to have a dedicated forum for EZ.

I think my issue with EZ in the budget forum as stands is that most people asking about EZ are basically asking the same kind of question about them viz 'How do they work, are they like Southwest?'. There are several EZ regulars who answer these type of question, but not that many. I'm not sure if that's because the group of people who most often fly EZ (European - because of airline location and predominantly business people, to judge from the flights I've taken and my own experience as to why I was flying them) aren't the kind of people who frequent budget travel too much, or if it's because those of us who fly frequently on EZ also have our own frequent flyer boards to hang out on in addition to flying EZ so don't have time to do a general board as well, where many of the threads are just not of interest (I've done budget travel, I've done non-budget travel, I prefer the non-budget version thanks ;)). Be that as it may, I don't think using the Budget travel forum for EZ is a particularly good fit and while it kind of does for questions about EZ, I think there is a case to be made for giving EZ it's own board as it would allow better and more informed discussion of EZ, allowing those that fly EZ a focus and those that want to fly EZ and have questions someplace definitive to go ask them - or to go search for answers.

I can't speak for FR. I don't fly them. I've never flown them. I won't fly them as at all if I can possibly avoid it, and I disapprove so much of the company I wouldn't chose to give them the oxygen of their own board. But I also know that me disapproving of their business practices so not wanting to give them a board on principle isn't really a rational argument!

I'd also add that discussion of the moderating practices of BA is not within the remit of TB.

Actually I think it was me that suggested the subforum idea while JOUY31 suggested consolidating things within the Budget Travel forum:Ahem... post #40? ;)

jenbel, I know what you mean about FR. My resolve is not quite as strong as yours and there are some occasions where the alternative to FR is so complex or expensive that I end up on an FR flight but it always leave me feeling morally 'dirty'. But, yes, this cannot be an argument against a forum. In any event, your problem would be that one cannot reasonably allow an EZY forum while denying an FR one...

On the oxygen of publicity bit, well, to be honest, anybody in Europe who has not heard of Ryanair is probably not aware that we have had flying machines since the Wright Brothers, Santos-Dumont and Bleriot. As to our US friends, it is very helpful for them to know more about FR as they should know that FR is not really like B6 or FL, which some would tend to assume.

Your post, as well as that by Raffles, also point out to another problem re the multiplication of forums: the list of forums in my own 'My flyertalk' keeps growing and I find that my reading is being spread increasingly thinly. If the critical mass is there, then it makes sense to create another forum. If it is not, it is counter-productive as some of us who are happy to frequent a generic BT forum will simply give up with several additional fora. That's the fragmentation problem again.

judolphin highlighted this thread to me. Though I sense he/she might not like what follows.

Prospero has already explained our MO for EZY/FR threads. In terms of volume we might get 1 thread every 2-3 weeks on the subject on BA which would qualify for the proposed forum. On that basis, along with the absence of FFP and the perfectly acceptable budget travel forum I can't see any real need for the proposed new, seperate fora.

Ha, to the underlined part: if those are the numbers, those are the numbers. Perhaps it's not needed after all if it's only 1-2 threads per month. With your insight the only rational argument left is," If you build it they [may very well] come."

Ha, to the underlined part: if those are the numbers, those are the numbers. Perhaps it's not needed after all if it's only 1-2 threads per month. With your insight the only rational argument left is," If you build it they [may very well] come."

There should have been a ;) at the end of my sentence, it was tongue in cheek.

Ahem... post #40? ;)

touché, Nick. I'm not one who usually favors subforums but think it would make sense in this case, more sense than say trying to rename the forum something more generic that would indicate LCC inclusion. Just MHO.

That's what this thread is.

Right. Somebody posts an idea here on TBT, and everyone discusses and debates it. If a large majority of posters are persuaded that the idea is good, the TB will typically make a motion and pass something. If the discussion here is inconclusive, the TB is not likely to have a 2/3 majority to act. Simple, really. Because TB members are no different than any other FTers.

There is a grey area here that tends towards "discussion of moderation" (discussion about whether threads could be moved to the "Budget Travel" forum in lieu of creating a new forum) - and it is not permitted for non-moderators to discuss moderation issues on pain of suspension. Some outspoken TB members however are moderators and can therefore voice their opinions on this thread. The rest of your elected TalkBoard members can only voice their opinions via the ballot process. That is why I hesitate to post a more detailed position on this issue here, and I am some of my other TB colleagues feel the same.

There is a grey area here that tends towards "discussion of moderation" (discussion about whether threads could be moved to the "Budget Travel" forum in lieu of creating a new forum) - and it is not permitted for non-moderators to discuss moderation issues on pain of suspension. Some outspoken TB members however are moderators and can therefore voice their opinions on this thread. The rest of your elected TalkBoard members can only voice their opinions via the ballot process. That is why I hesitate to post a more detailed position on this issue here, and I am some of my other TB colleagues feel the same.I don't think that this is right. I stand to be corrected if my understanding of the rules is erroneous but my understanding is that moderators are no more no less at liberty to discuss moderation than any other FT member. They can 'do the thing', i.e moderate, in the forums in which they have that function but discussing it is another matter.

Surely common sense would be used on an issue like this before suspending a TalkBoard member's account. It's not like anyone's publicly criticizing a mod's decision(s), just discussing if there's a better alternative to moderation available -- namely, a new board.

There is a grey area here that tends towards "discussion of moderation" (discussion about whether threads could be moved to the "Budget Travel" forum in lieu of creating a new forum) - and it is not permitted for non-moderators to discuss moderation issues on pain of suspension.

FT TOS calls it Discussing Specific Moderator Actions so how can speculating about what a moderator might be willing to do in the future within a forum be discussing a specific action if that action hasn't even happened yet?

Respectfully I disagree that the debate this far has tread upon taboo ground but rather merely discussing the proposal as made and suggesting alternatives. It should be noted also that it was a moderator who suggested possible thread relocation, not a regular member if my reading back upthread is correct. Just MHO.

I certainly apologize my post here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13619818-post12.html) was likely what brought up B747-437B's mention of discussing moderator actions. I certainly wouldn't have asked the question that was asked and removed if I didn't think it had relevance to the need (or lack thereof) of the proposed forum. I was merely trying to get a sense of what does or doesn't typically happen right now so that I (and possibly others) could offer an informed opinion on the subject.

There is a grey area here that tends towards "discussion of moderation" (discussion about whether threads could be moved to the "Budget Travel" forum in lieu of creating a new forum) - and it is not permitted for non-moderators to discuss moderation issues on pain of suspension. Some outspoken TB members however are moderators and can therefore voice their opinions on this thread. The rest of your elected TalkBoard members can only voice their opinions via the ballot process. That is why I hesitate to post a more detailed position on this issue here, and I am some of my other TB colleagues feel the same.
Hey, at least you've posted on the thread so we know you are aware of it (unlike 2/3rds of the other TB members) even if it's just to advance your own position, which really isn't anything to do with creation of an EZ or FR forum.

However, as someone who would like to see an EZ forum on FT, I'd really like to know if you support an EZ forum.

However, as someone who would like to see an EZ forum on FT, I'd really like to know if you support an EZ forum.

I don't believe that either Easyjet or Ryanair warrant their own forums quite yet, but I would support either a "European LCC" or a catch-all "Other LCC" forum as there is more than enough traffic for one of those, and the discussion is presently fragmented.

I certainly apologize my post here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13619818-post12.html) was likely what brought up B747-437B's mention of discussing moderator actions. I certainly wouldn't have asked the question that was asked and removed if I didn't think it had relevance to the need (or lack thereof) of the proposed forum. I was merely trying to get a sense of what does or doesn't typically happen right now so that I (and possibly others) could offer an informed opinion on the subject.

Sorry I was reading another post by another poster about possibly moving LCC topics into Budget Forum as a first step towards a possible dedicated forum.

Let's limit the discussion to EasyJet/Ryanair. Real or theoretical moderator actions have nothing to do with this forum.

There is a grey area here that tends towards "discussion of moderation" (discussion about whether threads could be moved to the "Budget Travel" forum in lieu of creating a new forum) - and it is not permitted for non-moderators to discuss moderation issues on pain of suspension. Some outspoken TB members however are moderators and can therefore voice their opinions on this thread. The rest of your elected TalkBoard members can only voice their opinions via the ballot process. That is why I hesitate to post a more detailed position on this issue here, and I am some of my other TB colleagues feel the same.

Odd, I only mentioned that RyanAir and EasyJet threads belong in Budget Travel, not that any action should be taken on threads discussing such subjects which might be started elsewhere... :confused:

Let's limit the discussion to EasyJet/Ryanair. Real or theoretical moderator actions have nothing to do with this forum.

Agreed.

I maintain that such subjects are best discussed in Budget Travel. I see no reason for either of these FFP-less airlines to have their own fora.

I don't believe that either Easyjet or Ryanair warrant their own forums quite yet, but I would support either a "European LCC" or a catch-all "Other LCC" forum as there is more than enough traffic for one of those, and the discussion is presently fragmented.

Understood. I think it should have kept this one in the Budget Travel. However, this is better way to kept it in the Budget Travel Forums is more convenient for you. I can't resist to says anything about new U2 or FR forums. Talkboard will have to decide to get voting to says I agree or disagree. Your decision to choose for which one is that. You have to choice for which one is better suitable forums is Other LCC or Europe LCC forums.

I'm certainly in favour.

Yes, the ethos is to base forums around FF programmes. But those forums are full of posts that have little to do with the respective programmes. Those posts are allowed and good thing too.

If Easyjet/Ryanair interest generates enough traffic to warrant their own forums then go for it. To refuse this because of a lack of FF programme seems unnecessarily dogmatic to me.

Afterall - if a lack of a FF programme is reason to exclude them from their own forums, then why should discussion of them be allowed in Budget Travel? Indeed why have any forum that is not based around FF programmes?

In conclusion - once we've overcome the hurdle of "is it a valid topic of discussion on FT?" then it should be traffic/interest that determines whether an individual forum is created.

Sure, keep discussion in Budget Travel if there is insufficient interest, but not as a "punishment" for not having a FF programme.

judolphin sums things up very well IMHO.

Last night i bought 2 tickets from easy jet.One from thessaloniki to Milan and the other from Milan to Barcelona.Everything looked allright but the time between the flights was kind of too short.I get in Milan at 16:15 and the plane to barcelona leaves at 16:35.But becouse this is my first time i buy tickets from internet i thought thats probobly enoght time for me to get to the other flight.So, the application let me buy the tickets without any warning that the check in ends at 15:55. Then i thought i should use the online check in.But if i carry one baggage a frend told me i wont make it to the other flight.
Pleace tell me if i can make it to the other flight or should i rearrange that flight, which btw costs 36 or something euros more for fee:S.
Anyone has any idea how i shoud fix this?

I'd ask the moderator to spin your thread off from the Talk Board forum and relocate it to one of the travel forums. I'll make that request for you.

I'd ask the moderator to spin your thread off from the Talk Board forum and relocate it to one of the travel forums. I'll make that request for you.

Great ideas!! I think it will have kept separated from Travel Budget. U2 & FR will have create own new forums in Airlines forums instead of going to the Travel Budget. This is logical choices to create new forums is very conveniently.

Last night i bought 2 tickets from easy jet.One from thessaloniki to Milan and the other from Milan to Barcelona.Everything looked allright but the time between the flights was kind of too short.I get in Milan at 16:15 and the plane to barcelona leaves at 16:35.But becouse this is my first time i buy tickets from internet i thought thats probobly enoght time for me to get to the other flight.So, the application let me buy the tickets without any warning that the check in ends at 15:55. Then i thought i should use the online check in.But if i carry one baggage a frend told me i wont make it to the other flight.
Pleace tell me if i can make it to the other flight or should i rearrange that flight, which btw costs 36 or something euros more for fee:S.
Anyone has any idea how i shoud fix this?

Welcome to Flyertalk. Please feel free to visit the Budget Travel forum to discuss current Easy Jet issues. The place you have posted your query is related to internal Flyertalk operational protocol:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/budget-travel-597/

I'd like new forums for Ryanair, Easyjet, and the other euro low cost carriers.

But if you're not sure, how about changing the name of the "budget" forum to be "Budget including Ryanair, Easyjet, and the other Low Cost Carriers".

This way, people know where to post.

They can be very low cost, but, Ryanair especially, get up to lots of games with their fees, charges, flight promotions, luggage rules, etc.

I'd like new forums for Ryanair, Easyjet, and the other euro low cost carriers.

But if you're not sure, how about changing the name of the "budget" forum to be "Budget including Ryanair, Easyjet, and the other Low Cost Carriers".

This way, people know where to post.

They can be very low cost, but, Ryanair especially, get up to lots of games with their fees, charges, flight promotions, luggage rules, etc.

Are there miles/points to discuss in either of these programs? Are such rewards programs already being copiously discussed elsewhere on FlyerTalk?

If not, then there should be no forum.

Are there miles/points to discuss in either of these programs? Are such rewards programs already being copiously discussed elsewhere on FlyerTalk?

If not, then there should be no forum.

Unless there is sufficient value to discussing how to evade the airline's attempt to scam you with sneaky fees. For RyanAir and Spirit, the frequent flier benefit is that you learn their scams and pay less than a newbie.

Unless there is sufficient value to discussing how to evade the airline's attempt to scam you with sneaky fees. For RyanAir and Spirit, the frequent flier benefit is that you learn their scams and pay less than a newbie.

That's what the Budget Travel Forum is all about. None (RyanAir, EasyJet, Spirit) deserves a separate forum.

Spiff,

Spirit does have a FF program and I have used it for a free ticket from Panama to the USA. The airline does offer "Big Front Seat" and other options that make it something to look at. Being in the Miami Beach area, Spirit can be a good choice to expensive destinations in the Americas.

Spiff,

Spirit does have a FF program and I have used it for a free ticket from Panama to the USA. The airline does offer "Big Front Seat" and other options that make it something to look at. Being in the Miami Beach area, Spirit can be a good choice to expensive destinations in the Americas.

Their FF program is terrible and there's very little discussion about Spirit in the Budget Travel forum.

Personally, I don't think they should even have an operating license. ;)

However, there is still little to no demonstrated need for Spirit or any of the other budget carriers to have their own forum(s). Furthermore, there isn't much frequent flyer material to discuss.

Their FF program is terrible and there's very little discussion about Spirit in the Budget Travel forum.

Personally, I don't think they should even have an operating license. ;)

However, there is still little to no demonstrated need for Spirit or any of the other budget carriers to have their own forum(s). Furthermore, there isn't much frequent flyer material to discuss.

But, why not have a direct forum for the "Three+ Ultra-Low-Cost Carriers that span Europe & the Americas? :confused:@:-)

The budget travel section really does not fit airlines, thus all the others have their own forum.

But, why not have a direct forum for the "Three+ Ultra-Low-Cost Carriers that span Europe & the Americas? :confused:@:-)


The low cost carriers get covered in the Other North & South American Frequent Flyer Programs, and the Other European Frequent Flyer Programs forums.

Looking at those forums I don't see an overwhelming # of posts re: the low cost dominating the forums to the point that I see a need to create a new forum. Can't speak for other TB members, but that's my thought on the matter.

Cheers.

For your entertainment:

www.flyertalk.com/forum/budget-travel/1474756-preparing-meet-ryanair-battlefield.html

I have had no particular difficulty finding RyanAir info in the Budget Travel Forum. Just search on RyanAir (one word). On the other hand, finding the Budget Travel Forum is a bit difficult...

But, why not have a direct forum for the "Three+ Ultra-Low-Cost Carriers that span Europe & the Americas? :confused:@:-)

The budget travel section really does not fit airlines, thus all the others have their own forum.

Budget Travel covers these three budget airlines, none of which has an overwhelming number of posts.

Personally, each is so terrible/non-existent in the Frequent Flyer metric and so customer unfriendly that they don't even deserve to be licensed.

Budget Travel covers these three budget airlines, none of which has an overwhelming number of posts.

Personally, each is so terrible/non-existent in the Frequent Flyer metric and so customer unfriendly that they don't even deserve to be licensed.

Playing devils advocate:

I will not rehash our "spirited Spirit" conversation from last year, however I did find the history of RyanAir very interesting. Reading their history http://www.ryanair.com/en/about

can give all involved an insight to their business and success. Lets look at some key quotes from RyanAir about its history and why it is successful:

1990

"After three years of rapid growth in aircraft, routes and intense price competition with Aer Lingus and British Airways, Ryanair accumulates £20m in losses and goes through a substantial restructuring. The Ryan family invest a further £20m. in the company, and copying the Southwest Airlines low fares model the airline is re-launched under new management as Europe's first low fares airline. Ryanair now offers the lowest fares in every market, high frequency flights, moving to a single aircraft fleet type, scrapping free drinks and expensive meals on board but reducing the lowest fares from £99 to just £59 return"

<redacted>

2011

"Our traffic grew by 5% to 75.8m passengers with our average fare of just €45 and no fuel surcharges, despite a sharp increase in fuel costs."

"Our profits rose 25% to a record €503m despite higher oil prices and the global recession and we announced a planned €483m special dividend to shareholders."


Here is a great quote from 1993


"Ryanair launches its first new route for 5 years with daily flights from Dublin to Birmingham. The Irish Government warn us not to do it because it will "upset" Aer Lingus. We go ahead anyway..."

So, it could be argued that Southwest (which does have a forum) along with Spirit, RyanAir, etc. are among the most successful airlines in history. A industry which has few success stories and many failures. Ryan along with Southwest/Spirit are true innovators of their industry and are the only recently profitable carriers (Europe/Americas). It should be noted that Southwest has been profitable every year since its inception.

I like airlines such as JetBlue/Virgin America and others that offer full service, but we should realize the success of their "Ultra-Low-Cost Carriers" shows that many in the public want to travel for the "least" possible cost. If people did not like these airlines, they would not make money, as no one would fly them.

copying the Southwest Airlines low fares model

That's absurd. Southwest's model puts employees first, then customers, then shareholders. RyanAir puts shareholders first, second, and third. Anything to make a quick buck.

"While other airlines maintain their fuel surcharges, Ryanair remains the only airline to guarantee "no fuel surcharges ever" prompting even more passengers to flock to our lowest fares and best customer service on 436 low fare routes across 24 countries."

Correction. Almost anything to make a quick buck. Eschewing fuel fees is good marketing and admirable.

"Best customer service"? Or is it best, worst, and only customer service on 436 specific routes that no other airline serves? Or is it "best" from the point of view of shareholders? The Air France ground staff is infamous, but they aren't compensated based on how many extra Euros they can extract from customers they "serve".

If RyanAir survives its fares will eventually need to cover costs without any revenue boost from ambush airport fees. Either the fees will be dropped or a higher and higher fraction of customers will learn how to avoid them. If the fees were intended as a temporary revenue source to bootstrap the company it might almost make sense to me. All except the fact that when you treat one customer unfairly, as judged by that customer, he tells 20 of his acquaintances.

Southwest's model reverses that rule. If you consistently treat the customer fairly when your competition does not, word of mouth will build inexorably in your favor. Southwest operates like Costco: Good quality at a fair price. RyanAir operates like a marginal used car dealer: Buyer beware.

I wouldn't be surprised to see RyanAir attempt to transition its model to no-fees when fee income drops far enough at RyanAir and more importantly at its competitors. It's even conceivable that raising fees to extortionate levels is designed to accelerate this process: leading competitors to match fees at levels which lose revenue. But who knows what's inside the mind of a used car dealer?

NSX,

1. It could be argued that Ryan is by far, one of the most successful Irish business, in the history of the Irish Republic.

2. Furthermore, the numbers suggest that its employees are among the most productive in the industry.

3. I disagree with you about how Ryan treats/pays its employees from the very beginning as a stock company,

"All of Ryanair's employees receive shares as part of the flotation process and at the close of the first days trading, Ryanair's employees are sitting on over €100m. worth of shares. "

I believe this could be very true love/hate them:

RyanAir was... voted the 'Best Managed National Airline' in the world by the prestigious International Aviation Week magazine." (1998)

Since 1998 the airline has grown (like Spirit) while most of the "Legacy Carriers" have had difficult times.

Big deal.

Bottom line: No FF program, little demonstrated need on FlyerTalk. Frosting on the cake: the RyanAir experience sucks. And I mean really sucks. Not forum worthy, not fractional-forum worthy. And in my opinion, not operating certificate worthy,

NetJets is a profitable company. No NetJets forum because they don't have a FF program and there's not much NetJets discussion to merit a forum. And NetJets doesn't suck.

Big deal.

Bottom line: No FF program, little demonstrated need on FlyerTalk. Frosting on the cake: the RyanAir experience sucks. And I mean really sucks. Not forum worthy, not fractional-forum worthy. And in my opinion, not operating certificate worthy,

NetJets is a profitable company. No NetJets forum because they don't have a FF program and there's not much NetJets discussion to merit a forum. And NetJets doesn't suck.


Spiff,


I am not saying that they are good at service or even that I would personally fly with them or EasyJet. I could have taken a $60 one-way Barcelona-Heathrow flight with EasyJet or Ryan: but I did not want to be subject to huge possible baggage fees (TV travel star Peter Greenburg got dinged for over $1,000 of excess baggage charges) so I booked on British for just over $100 and got free gin & tonic's and one free bag!!

But it looks as though many people don't think like me (Flyertalk as well) and only go for the lowest prices option. If you read many different forums, you can see that many of the airlines are doing much the same things: Delta and the Skymiles peso scam, downgrading their clubs, BA/AF/IB very high redemption charges...

Many of these fees and reduction of services are alive and well on "the majors" worldwide. While many on here (myself included) may dislike these airlines, they are very successful and are changing the face of their industry.


**Both Spirit & Ryan did have Business Class and were loosing money. Ryan also had meal service as well. To save the companies Ryan & Spirit chose to scrap business class (Spirit kept the seating, "Big Front Seat") and both also ended free drink and meal service. Spirit kept and abbreviated FF Plan, while Ryan scraped its flyer plan completely.

Flyertalk is not the right place for fractional jet ownership discussion, as it is backed on commercial aviation.

Spiff,

If we used as a qualification the following, "doesn't suck", what airline forum would survive?

1. Delta Skymiles program
2. New Delta Lounges
3. Delta upgrade percentages
4. US Airways Dividend Miles
5. United Mileage Plus
6. United Clubs
7. United upgrades
8. United Global First Class
9. The New America

The list goes on & on & on, while there is no end in sight. Why stop there, what about today's world does not suck, compared to the 1980s-90s? Everything from retail, banks, cable companies, etc., etc., etc., the list is endless.

Spiff, if you read much of what the forums are, it is about the diminishing nature of the services industries and how we are getting much less for more cash outlay.

The fact that RyanAir (and Spirit) both suck isn't the real issue for me. Like I said, that's a personal opinion.

The two real salient points are that they have little to no FF program and little discussion in their current and correct homes: the Budget Travel forum. Until both of those points change, that is where they belong.

The fact that RyanAir (and Spirit) both suck isn't the real issue for me. Like I said, that's a personal opinion.

The two real salient points are that they have little to no FF program and little discussion in their current and correct homes: the Budget Travel forum. Until both of those points change, that is where they belong.

Spiff,

There is much confusion on this (myself included) as I & others have never spent much time in the Budget Travel forum (I did not know it even existed), as many Flyertalker's search the "Other North American/South America & Europe" airline forums. Spirit has many continual questions and threads there, but few would consider airlines for the budget forum.

Its like putting the New American in the Dallas forum, Delta with Atlanta/Southern USA forum. I suppose that under this logic Singapore Airlines should be under the Luxury travel forum??

Would it make sense to create one new forum for LCC and budget airlines worldwide, pulling them out of all of the other regional carriers fora? Would that make their placement in FT less ambiguous?

Also, does the Budget Travel fora need more information in a sticky about what material belongs there or even a rework of its title? Budget Lodging, Tours, and Ground Transportation perhaps to make clear that this should not include budget airlines?

gkbiii, this and many other issues could be fixed if vBulletin had the ability to present the same thread or forum in two different places. The implementers would need to add a level of indirection, which could be costly. I don't think it's on the drawing board, but it should be.

1. Would it make sense to create one new forum for LCC and budget airlines worldwide, pulling them out of all of the other regional carriers fora? Would that make their placement in FT less ambiguous?

2. Also, does the Budget Travel fora need more information in a sticky about what material belongs there or even a rework of its title? Budget Lodging, Tours, and Ground Transportation perhaps to make clear that this should not include budget airlines?

1. No, primarily for the reasons Spiff mentions ("The two real salient points are that they have little to no FF program and little discussion in their current and correct homes"). As I posted up thread, there aren't an overwhelming # of posts re: them in the Other North & South American Frequent Flyer Programs and the Other European Frequent Flyer Programs, which is where the posts currently reside so I don't see a need to create a new forum for them.

2. If someone wants to ask a LCC question in the Budget Travel forum, then I don't have a problem w/ that. It's certainly related to budget travel. However, most discussions take place in the ON&SAFF & OEFF forums.

Cheers.

1. No, primarily for the reasons Spiff mentions ("The two real salient points are that they have little to no FF program and little discussion in their current and correct homes"). As I posted up thread, there aren't an overwhelming # of posts re: them in the Other North & South American Frequent Flyer Programs and the Other European Frequent Flyer Programs, which is where the posts currently reside so I don't see a need to create a new forum for them.

2. If someone wants to ask a LCC question in the Budget Travel forum, then I don't have a problem w/ that. It's certainly related to budget travel. However, most discussions take place in the ON&SAFF & OEFF forums.

Cheers.
Actually, I asked the questions in hope that some of those who advocate change would reply. The Easyjet/Ryanair forums that are suggested in the thread title seem not to be a workable idea, but perhaps some other changes on FT could improve the situation. Perhaps if everything about budget and low cost carriers were placed in a single well-located forum, there would be enough traffic to make it work and satisfy people who are interested in this, even though these airlines tend not to offer much in the way of FF programs.

Actually, I asked the questions in hope that some of those who advocate change would reply. The Easyjet/Ryanair forums that are suggested in the thread title seem not to be a workable idea, but perhaps some other changes on FT could improve the situation. Perhaps if everything about budget and low cost carriers were placed in a single well-located thread, there would be enough traffic to make it work and satisfy people who are interested in this, even though these airlines tend not to offer much in the way of FF programs.

I think you mean forum, not single thread as no one likes mega-threads.

If you look at the threads in Budget Travel, it seems that LCC posts currently exist & the forum description handles it.


Budget Travel
Enjoy discussing low-cost travel (hostels, pensiones, camping, bus and train transport, LCCs, charter flights, inexpensive restaurants, etc.)

Cheers.

Actually, I asked the questions in hope that some of those who advocate change would reply. The Easyjet/Ryanair forums that are suggested in the thread title seem not to be a workable idea, but perhaps some other changes on FT could improve the situation. Perhaps if everything about budget and low cost carriers were placed in a single well-located thread, there would be enough traffic to make it work and satisfy people who are interested in this, even though these airlines tend not to offer much in the way of FF programs.

Actually, there's a very workable idea that requires no change:

Use the current, and correct forum: Budget Travel.

I think you mean forum, not single thread as no one likes mega-threads.

If you look at the threads in Budget Travel, it seems that LCC posts currently exist & the forum description handles it.


Budget Travel
Enjoy discussing low-cost travel (hostels, pensiones, camping, bus and train transport, LCCs, charter flights, inexpensive restaurants, etc.)

Cheers.
OOPS, you're right. What I meant to say would have the second "thread" say "forum."

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JDiver
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Actually, there's a very workable idea that requires no change:

Use the current, and correct forum: Budget Travel.

Gotta agree as the answer to every supposed need isn't IMHO to create a new forum.

The two real salient points are that they have little to no FF program and little discussion in their current and correct homes: the Budget Travel forum. Until both of those points change, that is where they belong.

As I posted up thread, there aren't an overwhelming # of posts re: them in the Other North & South American Frequent Flyer Programs and the Other European Frequent Flyer Programs, which is where the posts currently reside so I don't see a need to create a new forum for them.The fact that Sharon and Spiff do not agree what the proper home for Ryanair/Easyjet (or other LCCs) is speaks volumes about the nature of the problem.

If those that you would expect to know FT better than the back of their hands disagree, what chance is there for us mere mortals to reliably identify where we are supposed to post?

The reality is that post on Ryanair and Easyjet are posted all over the place in European fora: BA, Flying Blue, OEFFP, Budget travel, related geographical fora such as UK&I, Europe,...

I have suggested to people in the past to post Easyjet-related questions in the Budget travel forum, only to see their questions left unanswered and less answered than in a far less appropriate place, like Flying Blue for instance. I'll think twice in the future about doing the same because it is ridiculous to direct people to post their questions in a forum which is supposed to be the proper forum if their questions are likely to elicit less useful answers than in a forum which is supposed not to be the proper one.

Now, perhaps that this would make Spiff very happy; perhaps nothing would delight him more than seeing questions about Ryanair/Easyjet unanswered since he seems to despise those airlines and ooze contempt about them through every pore of his body. I am not sure, though, that from perspective of the average FT reader, this is a particular helpful position. After all, FT is not supposed to be a beauty contest in which "good" airlines are rewarded with a forum and "bad" airlines are punished by making it difficult for FTers to find information about them.

RyanAir has no FF program. Therefore OEFFP doesn't make much sense.

EasyJet and Spirit barely have FF programs.

As for organization - easily fixed with a forum header description change, if appropriate. I still think RyanAir, EasyJet, and Spirit belong in Budget Travel. They certainly don't deserve a forum of their own to discuss their small to non-existent FF programs and what little there is to discuss about these airlines themselves is appropriate for Budget Travel. I'm sorry if that offends some people's sensibilities, but that's where I believe they belong.

RyanAir has no FF program. Therefore OEFFP doesn't make much sense.

EasyJet and Spirit barely have FF programs.

As for organization - easily fixed with a forum header description change, if appropriate. I still think RyanAir, EasyJet, and Spirit belong in Budget Travel. They certainly don't deserve a forum of their own to discuss their small to non-existent FF programs and what little there is to discuss about these airlines themselves is appropriate for Budget Travel. I'm sorry if that offends some people's sensibilities, but that's where I believe they belong.

I agree with you on paper. From purely theoretical perspective, that is what makes the most sense and why I suggested to people to do just that.

It is just that experience tells us that this just does not work. I am not sure what the proper answer to the problem is. But I sure know that closing one's mind in a doctrinaire "that is the way it should be" is perhaps not the most constructive way to go about it.

This has nothing to do with sensibilities but rather with pragmatism and common sense: when something does not work, perhaps one needs to think again rather than pretending that no problem exists and that all is fine and dandy. It may be that changing the description will do the trick. I do not know. I really do not know what the answer to it is. But I sure would like it infinitely better if TB members acknowledged when there is an issue (even if one does not have a satisfactory answer to the problem) rather than pushing the issue under the carpet.

Whether you like or not, it is a fact that people do not know where to post when they have question about Ryanair and Easyjet and do not tend to post them in the budget travel forum. Just repeating in TB that this is where people should post will not solve that problem. And if someone were to ask me now where to post such a question, I would no longer tell them to post it there because I do not think that it would be sensible for me to tell someone to post in a forum where their chances of getting a useful answer are not very high.

What do you mean by "doesn't work"?

Are there dozens of posts straying outside the Budget Travel forum? Or are a small number of people refusing to use this forum for RyanAir, EasyJet, Spirit, etc?

Responding to "I want!" is not how TB should be making decisions and changes. Educating and directing traffic may be a better solution going forward than just making changes and adding forums based on "I want!".

Are there dozens of posts straying outside the Budget Travel forum?

That's the crucial question. I'd like to know too. Also whether a retitling would help guide posters to the correct forum.

As to the other point that TB know FT like the back of our hands... I have compiled forum usage statistics for all FT forums a few times. It takes a couple hours. Each time I do, I discover changes that I had not noticed. Nobody but SanDiego1K knows FT like the back of her hand.

I have no interest in any of these airlines, but what about splitting Budget Travel into subforums, including one for Budget Airlines?

The fact that Sharon and Spiff do not agree what the proper home for Ryanair/Easyjet (or other LCCs) is speaks volumes about the nature of the problem.

If those that you would expect to know FT better than the back of their hands disagree, what chance is there for us mere mortals to reliably identify where we are supposed to post?

The reality is that post on Ryanair and Easyjet are posted all over the place in European fora: BA, Flying Blue, OEFFP, Budget travel, related geographical fora such as UK&I, Europe,...

I have suggested to people in the past to post Easyjet-related questions in the Budget travel forum, only to see their questions left unanswered and less answered than in a far less appropriate place, like Flying Blue for instance. I'll think twice in the future about doing the same because it is ridiculous to direct people to post their questions in a forum which is supposed to be the proper forum if their questions are likely to elicit less useful answers than in a forum which is supposed not to be the proper one.

Now, perhaps that this would make Spiff very happy; perhaps nothing would delight him more than seeing questions about Ryanair/Easyjet unanswered since he seems to despise those airlines and ooze contempt about them through every pore of his body. I am not sure, though, that from perspective of the average FT reader, this is a particular helpful position. After all, FT is not supposed to be a beauty contest in which "good" airlines are rewarded with a forum and "bad" airlines are punished by making it difficult for FTers to find information about them.

Disagree a bit. Obviously I don't know FT like the back of my hand or I would have realized initially that the Budget Travel forum actually includes LCCs in its forum description. ;) And it's obvious that neither EasyJet nor RyanAir are high-end carriers, so the best spot for discussions is probably that forum.

There are posts re: RA/EJ in the OEFFP forum, probably more than in Budget Travel from what I've seen. My guess, and it's only that, is that those who are UK/Europe base think of that forum first or just haven't perused all the forums that FT offers & discovered Budget Travel.

If there are indeed posts re: EJ/RA (or any LCC; let's not be myopic) in forums you think are inappropriate, you can PM the mod of said forum(s) & suggest the threads get moved to Budget Travel.

BTW - I just went back for a year in the Budget Travel forum & there are very few threads that have 0 replies & none (maybe 1) had to do w/ RyanAir/EasyJet, so I'm a bit perplexed by your saying that your friends questions were left unanswered. Seems to me based on my quick view of threads is that people do answer those who post in that forum. There's also a LCC sticky in Budget Travel forum.

Spiff has made clear his disdain for EJ/RA is simply a personal opinion & his opposition to them getting their own forum has more to do w/ their lack of FF programs. I don't have strong feelings one way or another re: EJ/RA, but am inclined to agree w/ him re: why they don't deserve their own forum based on lack of FF program.

What do you mean by "doesn't work"?

Are there dozens of posts straying outside the Budget Travel forum? Or are a small number of people refusing to use this forum for RyanAir, EasyJet, Spirit, etc?

Responding to "I want!" is not how TB should be making decisions and changes. Educating and directing traffic may be a better solution going forward than just making changes and adding forums based on "I want!".

Some might not know Budget Travel forum exists or some may think that the Europe forums are the place for EJ/RA because that's where they live. The solution could be as simple as having mods move the threads to BTF if they think it's in the wrong place.

I don't think (and won't vote for one at this stage) it requires a forum just for EJ/RA - one reason being in that the forums where I do see them, threads re: them still aren't a majority of the threads in the forums where they do exist.

Gotta agree as the answer to every supposed need isn't IMHO to create a new forum.

Agree.

RyanAir has no FF program. Therefore OEFFP doesn't make much sense.

EasyJet and Spirit barely have FF programs.

As for organization - easily fixed with a forum header description change, if appropriate. I still think RyanAir, EasyJet, and Spirit belong in Budget Travel. They certainly don't deserve a forum of their own to discuss their small to non-existent FF programs and what little there is to discuss about these airlines themselves is appropriate for Budget Travel. I'm sorry if that offends some people's sensibilities, but that's where I believe they belong.

This sounds more like getting the mods to move the threads in other forums to Budget Travel. The BTF already mentions LCC in the forum description.

I have no interest in any of these airlines, but what about splitting Budget Travel into subforums, including one for Budget Airlines?

Having just scanned the thread titles in the Budget Travel forum, the threads are quite varied & not enough to justify sub-forums. The forum description already mentions LCC.

BTW - I had no idea there were so many LCC worldwide until I read this post in the LCC sticky :eek:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/4549539-post2.html

Cheers.

Spirit does have a frequent flyer program with different tier levels, as well as its own mileage credit card. All of my posts about the airline (most other peoples as well) have been under the "North/South American Airlines forum. There is a strong since by many the Spirit/Ryan Air deserve their own respective, independent forums.

They are both the most successful members of the Ultra-Low-Cost-Carrier Group, in their region. Both airlines are innovators for their industry and have taken the Southwest example, to the next level. Seriously Virgin America has a small FFP, yet along with JetBlue, they have their own forums. It should be noted that their are some growing ULCCs in Asia as well.

Seriously, nobody in their right mind would search for ULCCs in the "Budget Travel Forum"!!

In addition to the forum description for Budget Travel, would it help to rename the forum as something like

Budget Travel, Including Budget Airlines and LCCs

? This might help to clarify where discussions of budget airlines belong.