Translated from Norwegian it states that even within the company middle management predicts the end of it. I'm not surprised as the unions still resists moving an inch towards the necessary steps (cost cuts). If they did, IC operations would immediately turn profitable.
Cheers,
SirRagnar
Mar 9, 10, 1:09 am
Not sure what unions you refer to, but I know the unions in Denmark have all accepted a major cut back.
And the other statement is based on a 2nd hand rumour originating from a guy on the floor:
Fra vår basesjef Bjørn S. Han tror ikke at vi flyr IC fra neste sommerprogram, og flere med ham deriblant jeg.
From our 'base manager' Bjørn S. He does not think we will fly IC from next summer, and other people including myself (own translation)
And this is a base manager that is on a base that doesn't even operate any SAS IC flights since OSL don't have any.
Nah, I wouldn't take that serious one bit and only a tabloid journalist would be able to make that conclusion from that forum post :p
Airbus A340-300
Mar 9, 10, 2:00 am
Not sure what unions you refer to, but I know the unions in Denmark have all accepted a major cut back.
And the other statement is based on a 2nd hand rumour originating from a guy on the floor:
Fra vår basesjef Bjørn S. Han tror ikke at vi flyr IC fra neste sommerprogram, og flere med ham deriblant jeg.
(own translation)
And this is a base manager that is on a base that doesn't even operate any SAS IC flights since OSL don't have any.
Nah, I wouldn't take that serious one bit and only a tabloid journalist would be able to make that conclusion from that forum post :p
There is no legally binding agreement between unions and employer on cost cuts. There is kind of MoU between the parties, but that means nothing. SK unions have for years talked about responsability but it hasn't materialised into formal agreements. The bottom-line problem is that the unions demand compensation in order to accept cost cuts, and that puts the necessary reductions and cost cuts in limbo.
Re the base manager - it doesn't matter where he's located. The core issue here is that middle management within the company as well as pilots themselves are starting to talk about termination of op's. That is a completely new thing, as employees within SAS for many, many years have denounced every rumour on termination and actions alike. But, still, it is just a rumour, and time will tell what happens. Do not forget that history seems to repeat itself yet again - many carriers are talking about a better environment and planes filling up again. SAS have managed to fill up their planes only due to reductions. They did the same in 2002-2008 and managed to get some profit during 2008. All other carriers made fortunes in the same time. SAS has meanwhile sold all its assetts and there's nothing left to sell, save SGS. CEO Jansson has also stated that there's no business case with less than 8 (or was it 7?) planes for IC.
However, a termination of SK IC is more of a threat to Denmark than to Sweden and Norway in the short run.
Cheers,
BizflyerNorway
Mar 9, 10, 2:40 am
This will only be speculations!
Don't you have better things to do?;)
BFN:)
Janusk
Mar 10, 10, 4:50 am
According to a Norwegian website the end of SK IC operations may come within the next 12 months:
Translated from Norwegian it states that even within the company middle management predicts the end of it. I'm not surprised as the unions still resists moving an inch towards the necessary steps (cost cuts). If they did, IC operations would immediately turn profitable.
Cheers,
According to a Norwegian website - or maybe according to speculations and guesses on a Norwegian webforum, speculations are that SK might cease its IC operations.
Yes, and according to rumours in my local supermarket, SK is about to sign a deal for 35 Boeing 787´s and 10 A380´s.... (Rumours and speculations doesn´t make the truth!).
Unfortunately there are a number of Scandinavians whom have made it their call, to spread rumours and speculations about the downfall and end of SAS. And they are doing this on the above mentioned forum, as well as other places on the internet (apparently also here now).
The truth and the facts is that in todays airline industry nobody knows where an airline will be a year from now. And for SAS, it could be anything from being bought up, to downsized, or even closed down. But it could also be that investors are buying up, and trying a more agressive market approach, including more IC traffic etc..
So instead of spreading rumours, lies and speculations, let´s keep to the facts!
VC10 Boy
Mar 10, 10, 10:26 am
I can't believe what is happening to this proud, and once pioneering, airline.
Pan Am, Eastern, Braathens, well maybe not Braathens; such a shame to see these great names die.
3cseat
Mar 11, 10, 1:46 am
Not sure what unions you refer to, but I know the unions in Denmark have all accepted a major cut back.
Not sure what you mean by this. According to Norwegian newspapers this is not the case. The Danish unions should contribute by a annual cut = 100 Mill NOK ( the other countries = 400 ), but they nows seams not willing to do so. There is speculation on Norway that actually SAS could turn bankrupt because of the Danisk unions attitude, because if they don't contribute as planned, the capital expansion will be set on hold.
Looks like agreement to me? I don't know why the Norwegian newspapers would state otherwise.
Edit: and it says the cut-back in Denmark adds 500 mill SEK to the savings.
3cseat
Mar 11, 10, 2:06 am
Well. Have a look at this : http://www.na24.no/article2855503.ece
I don't see this as any agreement between the unions!
SirRagnar
Mar 11, 10, 2:21 am
Interesting. That is some contrast to what we read here.
One thing have been misunderstood in that article though; na24.no claims that the CAU letter states that Norwegian and Swedish crew members should be "tariffmessig behandles på linje med kinesere og japanere".
That is not what the CAU letter says. It just states that NO and SE crew members are already operating on the routes from CPH to China and Japan and also their own domestic routes and that fact is not a requirement they want to change:
Præciseringen ændrer ikke på det forhold, at kollegaer fra Sverige og Norge udfører produktioner på egne overenskomster til og fra deres respektive hovedstæder (alternativt større byer, eks. Göteborg) ligesom de udfører tjeneste på interkontinentale ruter ud fra København på lige fod med japanske og kinesiske kolleger.
CAU seems to just want security for the danish crew members to be able to operate Danish domestic routes.
Either way, the latter seems to be the hurdle. Here is the danish version of the same news: http://epn.dk/brancher/transport/luft/article2006267.ece
I just hope they'll fix it soon so SAS have a chance of survival. Danish salaries are higher than Swedish and Norwegian in general and it is therefore obvious that SAS will likely favor the cheap labor - I guess that is what CAU is aware of and is fighting to at least keep Danish crew members on domestic danish routes.
Airbus A340-300
Mar 11, 10, 2:36 am
Not sure what you mean by this. According to Norwegian newspapers this is not the case. The Danish unions should contribute by a annual cut = 100 Mill NOK ( the other countries = 400 ), but they nows seams not willing to do so. There is speculation on Norway that actually SAS could turn bankrupt because of the Danisk unions attitude, because if they don't contribute as planned, the capital expansion will be set on hold.
Exactly, in this deeply troublesome time for the company, one of the unions demands - as they've always done - compensation. This is outright outrageous. One of the unions is actually demanding a final say on how the company should be run, which is something that the company should accept.
And "Janusk": "Unfortunately there are a number of Scandinavians whom have made it their call, to spread rumours and speculations about the downfall and end of SAS. And they are doing this on the above mentioned forum, as well as other places on the internet (apparently also here now).
The truth and the facts is that in todays airline industry nobody knows where an airline will be a year from now. And for SAS, it could be anything from being bought up, to downsized, or even closed down. But it could also be that investors are buying up, and trying a more agressive market approach, including more IC traffic etc..
So instead of spreading rumours, lies and speculations, let´s keep to the facts!"
Some two years ago I posted a question about the resiliance of the company. I was met by very similar posts - "there's absolutely nothing to be concerened about, the company has huge assets", "stop speculating" etc. Not less than twice the company has been forced to ask the governments for additional capital injections. The truth is that SAS has sold all its assets and there is nothing left to sell except for SGS and STS (which both should be sold). The company has already started the orderly winding down of its business by selling their own planes - the MD's - and two A340's in order to get some money in. There's no expansion on the horizon, that's speculation with blinds turned down. They have talked about expansion since ordering the Airbuses - where are we now ten years later? The truth is that they have no money to buy new planes.
And calling a Norwegian SK A340 captain on the mentioned forum a SAS basher is somewhat ... interesting ... On the same forum you express support for CAU's present actions too ...
Cheers,
Airbus A340-300
Mar 11, 10, 3:01 am
I just hope they'll fix it soon so SAS have a chance of survival. Danish salaries are higher than Swedish and Norwegian in general and it is therefore obvious that SAS will likely favor the cheap labor - I guess that is what CAU is aware of and is fighting to at least keep Danish crew members on domestic danish routes.
I'm not really sure if Danish salaries are that much higher than at least Swedish. In Sweden employers have to pay a general payroll tax and in Denmark the employee pays it, so in essence it ends up at around the same cost for the employer regardless of home country of the employee. Am I right?
I think it comes down to productivity, where the Swedish CA's have the highest and the Danish the lowest. That could stem from the Danish CA's working more on IC than Swedish and Norwegians, so productivity goes down rapidly. So I guess it's very problematic to compare them. Even so, the Danes in general have through industrial actions managed to get higher salaries within SK, but I don't think the difference is that big.
Cheers,
Janusk
Mar 11, 10, 3:20 am
Exactly, in this deeply troublesome time for the company, one of the unions demands - as they've always done - compensation. This is outright outrageous. One of the unions is actually demanding a final say on how the company should be run, which is something that the company should accept.
And "Janusk": "Unfortunately there are a number of Scandinavians whom have made it their call, to spread rumours and speculations about the downfall and end of SAS. And they are doing this on the above mentioned forum, as well as other places on the internet (apparently also here now).
The truth and the facts is that in todays airline industry nobody knows where an airline will be a year from now. And for SAS, it could be anything from being bought up, to downsized, or even closed down. But it could also be that investors are buying up, and trying a more agressive market approach, including more IC traffic etc..
So instead of spreading rumours, lies and speculations, let´s keep to the facts!"
Some two years ago I posted a question about the resiliance of the company. I was met by very similar posts - "there's absolutely nothing to be concerened about, the company has huge assets", "stop speculating" etc. Not less than twice the company has been forced to ask the governments for additional capital injections. The truth is that SAS has sold all its assets and there is nothing left to sell except for SGS and STS (which both should be sold). The company has already started the orderly winding down of its business by selling their own planes - the MD's - and two A340's in order to get some money in. There's no expansion on the horizon, that's speculation with blinds turned down. They have talked about expansion since ordering the Airbuses - where are we now ten years later? The truth is that they have no money to buy new planes.
And calling a Norwegian SK A340 captain on the mentioned forum a SAS basher is somewhat ... interesting ... On the same forum you express support for CAU's present actions too ...
Cheers,
You should stop putting words in my mouth dear friend. I have, unlike certain others, tried looking at the CAU situation from both sides. As I am also stating, I have never been a big fan of CAU, but unlike certain people, I am able to have a look from the outside. That might relate to my position as a frequent flyer, and not a person on the insides....
I don´t care whether you´re an SAS captain, or an KLM ticket agent, the fact is that posting the citation you did, is bashing SAS big time. "According to a Norwegian website" sounds like you are referring to a news site, and not a local debate forum, where a local SAS base manager (from a very small base) is being qouted for guessing about the close down of SAS IC.
I am not saying that SAS IC will be expanding, however I am also keeping myself from foreseeing the close down, as that would be pure speculations.....!!
SirRagnar
Mar 11, 10, 3:20 am
I must admit I don't know the specifics, and especially not within aviation. So I am basing my statement about higher salaries in Denmark compared to Sweden on my own business, the pharmaceutical business.
We have a lot of cross-collaboration across Øresund and I know that salaries in the Copenhagen area are generally considered significantly higher than our colleagues in Malmö.
I also do believe I heard at some point that the average salary differences were as high as 30%, but don't hold me to that though.
I don't know about productivity either, but I can tell you that it is very rare for me to experience any Danish crew members on IC flights out of CPH, so I am not sure your assumption is correct. In fact it is so rare to hear a Danish version of 'This is your captain speaking' so I actually thought they had gotten rid of them all and replaced them with Swedish, so I was surprised to hear a Danish captain recently from IAD-CPH.
I can't really blame SAS, who wouldn't hire the most cheap employee if they are both equally capable - which I presume pilots are.
Janusk
Mar 11, 10, 3:26 am
I'm not really sure if Danish salaries are that much higher than at least Swedish. In Sweden employers have to pay a general payroll tax and in Denmark the employee pays it, so in essence it ends up at around the same cost for the employer regardless of home country of the employee. Am I right?
I think it comes down to productivity, where the Swedish CA's have the highest and the Danish the lowest. That could stem from the Danish CA's working more on IC than Swedish and Norwegians, so productivity goes down rapidly. So I guess it's very problematic to compare them. Even so, the Danes in general have through industrial actions managed to get higher salaries within SK, but I don't think the difference is that big.
Cheers,
Why would danish CA´s be working more on IC than Swedish and Norwegians???
3cseat
Mar 11, 10, 4:01 am
I guess my real point is, the unions is really not helping SAS in the present situation. The unions are one of a couple of significant problem for SAS, and I'm afraid their way of acting is slowly "helping" SAS disappearing in the end.
I think is sad watching SAS struggling the way they do now. I have more than 1 Mill miles with SAS, and I would hate to see them go, and be replaced with for instance Lufthansa, even though that might give us a better "product" in the long run.
SirRagnar
Mar 11, 10, 4:28 am
I think is sad watching SAS struggling the way they do now. I have more than 1 Mill miles with SAS, and I would hate to see them go, and be replaced with for instance Lufthansa, even though that might give us a better "product" in the long run.
A bit off topic, but what would actually happen with our points and status in case for instance LH buys up SK? There must be some experience from that with other airlines that cracked?
SK AAR
Mar 11, 10, 4:55 am
You will get a M&M Senator card.
I guess your EB points will be converted to M&M miles. 1 point for 1 miles would make sense.
Airbus A340-300
Mar 11, 10, 10:01 am
You should stop putting words in my mouth dear friend. I have, unlike certain others, tried looking at the CAU situation from both sides. As I am also stating, I have never been a big fan of CAU, but unlike certain people, I am able to have a look from the outside. That might relate to my position as a frequent flyer, and not a person on the insides....
I don´t care whether you´re an SAS captain, or an KLM ticket agent, the fact is that posting the citation you did, is bashing SAS big time. "According to a Norwegian website" sounds like you are referring to a news site, and not a local debate forum, where a local SAS base manager (from a very small base) is being qouted for guessing about the close down of SAS IC.
I am not saying that SAS IC will be expanding, however I am also keeping myself from foreseeing the close down, as that would be pure speculations.....!!
Well my friend, "according to a Norwegian wesite" does not imply the website being the one of a news desk. The link clearly stated it was a plane geek site too. And yes, many SAS bashers are there, but I would hardly call a base manager from whatever size of the station, nor a captain within the company a "basher". It seems to me more of loosing their faith rather than wanting the company to go belly up. Two different things.
SAS IC cannot expand. Forget it. That is way less a credible speculation than the winding it down is.
I have over the years flying IC with SAS been surprised every time on the way they seem to run the shop. Danish pilots out of Stockholm, Norwegian in. Once or twice Swedes out of CPH. But the CA's in and out from ARN have mostly been Swedish, as on the CPH flights have been Danish and to alesser extent Norwegians. With the reduction of ARN production my assumption was that the had gotten rid of more Swedish CA's. That might not be the case as some of you bear witness of. In that case, do they still maintain the shipping around of staff to and from CPH then from ARN and OSL?
Cheers,
Cheers,
SirRagnar
Mar 11, 10, 10:07 am
In that case, do they still maintain the shipping around of staff to and from CPH then from ARN and OSL?
I don't know about that, but I could imagine there were many crew members living in Malmö who are working out of CPH?
At least it seems that many of the ground staff in CPH are Swedish from Malmö.
cph_flyer
Mar 12, 10, 12:35 am
SAS seems to have completed an agreement with the unions:
(link in Danish):
http://borsen.dk/transport/nyhed/178675/
jth
Mar 13, 10, 3:03 am
SAS seems to have completed an agreement with the unions:
(link in Danish):
http://borsen.dk/transport/nyhed/178675/
This looks encouraging. A swedish union representative said on the TV yesterday that the danish union (CAU) had tried some nasty tricks, and the other unions had put "severe" pressure on them. "It will be a while before we can talk normally again", he said. So the situation still seem quite fragile, lets just hope this new agreement will hold over time.
SirRagnar
Mar 13, 10, 3:19 am
It seems the danish crew also had a much longer way to go to reach the goal:
http://politiken.dk/erhverv/article921916.ece
Her kræver SAS-ledelsen, at det danske kabinepersonale leverer hele 86 millioner kroner, erfarer Politiken.
Til sammenligning skal det norske og svenske kabinepersonale spare henholdsvis 13 og 19 millioner kroner. I alt skal kabinepersonalet bidrage med 120 millioner kroner, mens piloterne leverer resten af besparelsen.
Danish to cut 86 mill
Norwegians to cut 13 mill
Swedish to cut 19 mill
It can't be all that surprising that it took a bit longer for the danes to agree on that.
SAS’ kabinepersonale tæller op mod 2.700 ansatte, omkring 1.000 er danske, 1.000 norske og 700 svenske.
Someone83
Mar 13, 10, 11:46 am
Danish to cut 86 mill
Norwegians to cut 13 mill
Swedish to cut 19 mill
It can't be all that surprising that it took a bit longer for the danes to agree on that.
That because the Swedes and Norwegians has cut much more at previuos cuts. That Danes are just lagging behind
Helsinki Flyer
Mar 13, 10, 3:33 pm
How about them Icelanders? =)
OFFlyer
Mar 14, 10, 12:00 pm
I don't know about that, but I could imagine there were many crew members living in Malmö who are working out of CPH?
At least it seems that many of the ground staff in CPH are Swedish from Malmö.
An old agreement states that on all IC routes the crew's nationality has to reflect the three states' ownership - on a total average. That is for each 7 crewmembers 3 has to be Swedish, 2 Danish and 2 Norweigan. That takes for a lot of flying crewmembers around, taking up seats and getting paid at the same time.
I seem to recal that an agreement was in the pipeline to phase this pre-historics set-up out. I am not sure of the status. I also know that CAU has (for obvious reasons) calles this as an area where money can be saved.
Someone83
Mar 14, 10, 1:39 pm
An old agreement states that on all IC routes the crew's nationality has to reflect the three states' ownership - on a total average. That is for each 7 crewmembers 3 has to be Swedish, 2 Danish and 2 Norweigan. That takes for a lot of flying crewmembers around, taking up seats and getting paid at the same time.
AFAIK it's several years since this agreement was scrapped