TalkBoard Topics - Forum Proposal: Speakers Corner

Last week, I walked through the speakers corner in Hyde Park, London UK, where people are allowed to speak freely to condemn the queen or whatever they'd like. We are truly blessed to have the freedom of speech in the US of A. In the UK, they don't have this right.

So, I'm proposing a new forum or sub-forum under OMNI called Speakers Corner so people could speak freely about whatever they wish, with no forum politics involved ^

What part of Omni does not currently meet the needs of what you propose?

What part of Omni does not currently meet the needs of what you propose?

We can't freely discuss whatever we'd like in OMNI or other forums. We can't "condemn the queen" so to speak. Some topics are deleted or heavily moderated. We can't even discuss moderation. I'm proposing a forum where we can discuss whatever we'd like, with no forum politics involved whatsoever.

You're proposing a "TOS-free Zone" I take it?

You're proposing a "TOS-free Zone" I take it?

No, it won't be necessary to create new forums for this time. Sorry, Folks. :(

So, I'm proposing a new forum or sub-forum under OMNI called Speakers Corner so people could speak freely about whatever they wish, with no forum politics involved ^

With out without moderators? If you want a forum without mods, what are you going to do the first time someone is attacked or threatened there and wants to complain to someone?

You're proposing a "TOS-free Zone" I take it?

If that's the case, I'm not sure I'd support that concept. A TOS-free zone could potentially "bleed" into to the non-TOS free zone. Topics/threads that are relegated by the TOS would find their way home into a TOS-free zone & that would be a little more chaotic than FT needs, IMHO.

We can't freely discuss whatever we'd like in OMNI or other forums. We can't "condemn the queen" so to speak. Some topics are deleted or heavily moderated. We can't even discuss moderation. I'm proposing a forum where we can discuss whatever we'd like, with no forum politics involved whatsoever.

If you're proposing a forum where the TOS doesn't apply, I think you'll have to look off-site. Not only does the TalkBoard not make moderation decisions (ie how/whether a forum is moderated), but the host of this board has asked that any concerns regarding that be brought to him directly.

...I think you'll have to look off-site.

This is Flyertalk.

There is already OMNI and the cesspool of OMNI/PR. They make big money for IB. I suppose that another such forum, this time with even less civility, less restraint, and less structure would probably make even more money. So while I'm sure IB might jump at such (since they're really in the business of making money, not in the business of having a passion for travel), it would not do the community of FlyerTalk any good whatsoever.

Per Spiff, there are plenty of other sites where folks can "discuss anything." There's usenet. Please not here.

It would be yet one more thing that would continue to diminish FT's character and reputation.

You're proposing a "TOS-free Zone" I take it?

gleff, that was brilliant. Concise summary, leaving the reader to draw his own conclusions.

I am not in favor of anything that encourages members to make enemies of each other when we should all be enjoying travel and rewards, sharing information on how better to do that.

Here's an idea that might work. Let each member have a private forum visible only to him, within which he can post anything he want. @:-)

We could call it MyBitBucket(TM).

with no forum politics involved ^

I'm proposing a forum where we can discuss whatever we'd like, with no forum politics involved whatsoever.

(emphasis mine)

What do you mean by "forum politics", since you repeatedly make such a strong point about it? If you meant politics, I think there are already enough of such talk in OMNI/PR.

As a non-English native, I am not sure what you mean "you can't condemn the queen" on FT either. Is this queen the mother of Prince of Wales or a pun? If I am not mistaken, quite a few American FTers are condemning their EPOTUS relentlessly in PR Lane for years, I don't see a problem for FTers to perform similar act toward the mother of Prince of Wales, if they so desire. Our OMNI mods are not UK cops.

We can't freely discuss whatever we'd like in OMNI or other forums. We can't "condemn the queen" so to speak. Some topics are deleted or heavily moderated. We can't even discuss moderation.

Politics and TOS are two totally different animals. Correct me in case I am wrong, you seem to aim at FT TOS.

If all you beef and "forum politics" is nothing but TOS (the host of FT, FT moderators, and moderation issues), I would think either a private session with Randy or running your own blog/websilte/usenet/whatever may please you more. Creating a "special corner" on FT? Not so much.

I see no point to create any new (sub)forum that has nothing to do with the core mission of FT.

If that's the case, I'm not sure I'd support that concept. A TOS-free zone could potentially "bleed" into to the non-TOS free zone. Topics/threads that are relegated by the TOS would find their way home into a TOS-free zone & that would be a little more chaotic than FT needs, IMHO.

I understand your concern, but, that's why the speakers corner exist in London, specifically for that reason. I actually believe there would be less unruly behaviors within the moderated zone because everyone would know where to go if they want to speak freely. It would actually make things easier.

There are absolutely other sites where people can speak freely. As a matter of fact, I don't think I know any other online forum with heavy moderation. Sometimes, there have been situations where I feel like I'm not able to speak freely. So, should I just go and start a competing site like SQtalk.com? I could, but I don't want to. I like flyertalk. I just want a small corner where anyone can come in and speak freely.

I don't think flyertalk should alienate possible audience by telling them hey, if you don't like it, go start your own website. Making improvements and making more members happy are probably better than telling them to start their own website, make their own forum, and start posting by themselves.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I know any other online forum with heavy moderation. Sometimes, there have been situations where I feel like I'm not able to speak freely.
So is moderation, let it be heavy or not, the real beef for you?

For illustration purpose, would you mind giving me an example that you "think or feel like" you can't speak freely on FT? That folks would know better whether your issues lie with FT TOS or something else?

FWIW, if it turns out to be TOS, why will any privately-owned website need TOS in place if the site sets up a special corner free from its own TOS? :confused:

... As a matter of fact, I don't think I know any other online forum with heavy moderation.

You might want to do a little exploring. For example, you'd likely call this "heavy moderation"; I'd call it appropriate moderation, thank goodness:

Insulting another member or a moderator will not be tolerated anywhere on this website. This includes Direct Messages and Reputation Comments.

Stay on topic. Attempts to hi-jack threads by switching topics or going off topic will be deleted and infractions issued. This is not a chat room - when people hi-jack threads by posting messages that are of interest to only few people, the threads often stop being useful discussions of initial topics.

Hate speech, racism or bashing of ANY sort will NOT be tolerated. Rude posts will be removed and infractions issued. Do not quote or talk to trolls or your posts will also be deleted. Use the report feature instead.

"Trolling" is prohibited.


Discussing moderator actions (deleting/moving/editing threads or posts) is not allowed in the public forums.

No "I'm leaving" messages.

http://www.city-data.com/forum

Sometimes, there have been situations where I feel like I'm not able to speak freely. [

You're not. You're welcome to speak appropriately and civilly per the TOS you agreed to that govern the community.

So, should I just go and start a competing site like SQtalk.com? I could, but I don't want to. I like flyertalk. I just want a small corner where anyone can come in and speak freely.

That's not the purpose of FlyerTalk. You might want to consider this (http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&output=html#num=50&hl=en&safe=off&q=create+a+blog&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=f&oq=&fp=c5aa4278f68e4a4) You'll have no problem "speaking freely."

I don't think flyertalk should alienate possible audience by telling them hey, if you don't like it, go start your own website. Making improvements and making more members happy are probably better than telling them to start their own website, make their own forum, and start posting by themselves.

The absolute surest way for any organization to become less effective and smaller is when it tries to be all things and do all things for all people. And not only will such hurt the organization, those in leadership will will begin to feel like dogs at a whistlers' convention.

FlyerTalk exists to discuss miles, points, and travel. Some wonderful friendships and communities have been a nice side benefit. So, given those realities, you are welcome to "speak freely" as long as you abide by the conventions of civility and appropriateness (i.e., the TOS and simple good manners) that serve to up-build any community.

If you prefer not to do that, then, yes, there are lots of other options -- although you'll find most websites that are akin to FlyerTalk to have -- to their credit -- much stronger TOS. FlyerTalk actually is extremely lenient and lots of posts that are allowed here would get you banned with no notice on city-data or howardforums etc.

So is moderation, let it be heavy or not, the real beef for you?

I believe we have a winner.

I like the concept. But I'm realistic enough to believe that FT is indeed not the place to live this freedom for various reasons. :o

Are you sure you're talking about OMNI? The reason I ask is that you mention you can't even discuss moderation. Actually (to quote Apple), there is a thread for that:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/872333-omni-moderation-too-hard-too-soft-discuss.html

This open thread about discussing moderation in OMNI has been posted to 863 times and viewed 15,638 times. And people have condemned the queen and every religion and every president and queen the world over. The topics that are deleted or heavily moderated are actually about other members, not the queen and not the president per se. And it might interest you in knowing that OMNI has the highest RBP count on FlyerTalk, which in a way relates to most if not all moderation in that it's the actual members who are active in the moderation.

It might some help to us if you can actual topics or specific threads -- not attacks on other members or posts in which members incorrectly attached other members for attributions to some comment -- so we can identify what you've enjoy more freedom.

Freedom of Speech is essential, but this freedom comes a responsibility and i think most identify that.

Thanks for your help in identifying where all our members can do better.

We can't freely discuss whatever we'd like in OMNI or other forums. We can't "condemn the queen" so to speak. Some topics are deleted or heavily moderated. We can't even discuss moderation. I'm proposing a forum where we can discuss whatever we'd like, with no forum politics involved whatsoever.

And it might interest you in knowing that OMNI has the highest RBP count on FlyerTalk

It's amusing that some people apparently expect moderators to ignore RBPs if the poster has tried to step right up to the edge of the Terms of Service without crossing the line. It doesn't work that way.

For one thing, not everybody agrees where the line is. For another thing, on FlyerTalk the readers get to have it their way for the most part, voting with their RBPs. If your posts get voted off the island, blame yourself for annoying the readers or blame the readers for allowing your post to annoy them. Because 99% of the time, that's the reality of the situation.

I kind of like this idea. ^

Good thinking out of the box, OP.

If the only threads in the proposed forum are on topics that are off limits in OMNI, OMNI/PR, and everywhere else on FT, I don't think it will get much use - and the use it gets won't be pleasant. After the novelty wears off I suspect it will be a hangout for a few disaffected die-hards and the occasionally curious. I don't think that FT, given its mission and how many off-mission forums it already has, needs to cater to them.

So, I'm proposing a new forum or sub-forum under OMNI called Speakers Corner so people could speak freely about whatever they wish, with no forum politics involved ^

+1. I wish I could reply to this with specificity here, however, under the rules I cannot.

:confused: I thought there was already a "Speaker's Corner" aka OMNI/OMNI PR.

There is very little that can't be talked about according to the TOS somewhere on this board. If memory serves most of it involves moderation, actions by moderators, hate speech, and personable attacks on other members.

While I give the OP a ^ for thinking outside the box, I don't see the need for this here.

Contrary to what the OP seems to believe, Speaker's Corner has no special quasi 'extra-territorial' status where the laws of the land do not apply and anything goes. You are still bound by UK law in SC and could be charged for, e.g., incitement to racial hatred.

To the extent that the TOS are the 'laws of the land' for FT, Omni IS the equivalent of SC in FT.

As an aside, the suggestion by the OP that there is no freedom of speech in the UK is plainly uninformed.

So, I'm proposing a new forum or sub-forum under OMNI called Speakers Corner so people could speak freely about whatever they wish, with no forum politics involved ^

I can't see the need. Between OMNI, OMNI/PR and Travel Safety and Security, pretty much anything goes already.

What mystifies ME is that the OP used Speakers Corner in "Hyde Park London UK" to demonstrate the concept of freedom of speech....

He then says the USA is truly blessed to have freedom of speech, and that

"In the UK, they don't have this right"....

Huh? Where does he think "London UK" IS? Arkansas?

Ah.... maybe this is it......Does he REALLY think Speakers Corner is the only place in the UK people are "allowed" to speak their minds???? :confused::confused:

I can't see the need. Between OMNI, OMNI/PR and Travel Safety and Security, pretty much anything goes already.

^

I think the distinction has to be made that any TOPIC can be discussed in all of those forums in a civil manner. If I wanted to state my opinions on the POTUS or the Queen or the Prime Minister of Abu Dhabi (not sure there is one, just using it as an extreme example), I can do so most likely in OMNI/PR and feel as though I can speak as freely as I'd like about any of them in a civilized way. If I care to be uncivilized with my language/demeanor/etc, I will go elsewhere, but IMO it doesn't belong on FT. Adding such a forum would do more harm than good.

I can't see the need. Between OMNI, OMNI/PR and Travel Safety and Security, pretty much anything goes already.

I think BlissWorld wants some combination of all those without moderation. I asked him earlier how he would resolve issues concerning personal attacks on such a forum but he did not respond to my question.

Tom in Berlin