Midwest Airlines Midwest Miles (Pre-Alignment) - Is it now Midworst?

Seems every flight on YX has an issue for me these days. The latest is trying to get my NW WorldPerks number in my PNR.

Supposed to be able to do it at booking but it didn't work.

Contacted YX. On 11/17/09 they E-mailed back and said it was taken care of.

Got to LAS today. NW number is not in the PNR. They didn't know how to add it. One of their two counter computers crashed. When it came back up, one agent was able to delete the incorrect YX number and said she put in the correct NW number. Didn't print on boarding pass and still not in PNR.

Contacted YX and was told it was never entered.

What's with these morons?

Call it growing pains, but I went out on Midwest today to Pittsburgh, and the following occurred.

I got tagged $92.00 for checking a single bag that weighed 66 pounds. Was initially told that my Delta Skymiles number couldn't be entered because it wasn't valid(... does that mean?), and almost wasn't allowed to board because they had closed out the flight 45 minutes before it's departure time.

Still got cookies(BFD)that were stone cold

This coupled with a gate agent that said numerous times "I don't know what I'm doing" Not tremendously reassuring and where is the incentive to use Midwest again anytime in the future?

I had family in over the weekend who flew PIT-MKE and MKE-PIT. They reported that the cookies were cold and the gate ops did not appear to be moving smoothly, due to employees who don't get it. Resulted in a minor delay getting in to MKE from PIT.

Midworst, no. Growing pains, yes. Republic gets it, but the Chautauqua crews are probably still working on getting the hang of the Midwest culture. It will never be the same as it once was, though, I'm sorry to say.

So, here's the good and not so good. Most of it is actually somewhat promising.

The not so good. 20+ minutes on hold with the MKE call center utterly unacceptable. Slow LAS checkin: self service terminals down as was one of the two counter computers. The captain wanted to get out of LAS early (unusual headwinds today) and so boarding began about 15 minutes early but there was no announcement in the airport. Kind of a surprise to find that out coming out of the men's room. Baggage service upon deplaning at MKE was a little slow. I had to pay for checking a bag so I guess I expect better luggage service.
On board the service was pretty good and the Frontier crews tried hard to do the YX "thang" including one male FA having fun baking the cookies. He also asked me to explain cheese curds. The Denver catered food was acceptable. The A319 was in decent shape and there was IFE (seat back TV) -- for a fee.

I read in the Frontier magazine (which is kind of anemic -- maybe with the merger they can beef it up) Republic's CEO talking about how both Frontier and YX were good carriers with good cultures and he didn't think it appropriate to destroy them but rather to retain and enhance them. DL could learn some lessons from that.

Would I fly YX again? If I have to or they give me the best deal, yes...but with some "reservations."

See my separate post on WN out of MKE.

I had to fly WN Thanksgiving night (only carrier operating then) and was fairly impressed.

Checkin was efficient and courteous -- and no bag fee!

Boarding was quick and efficient but I don't like unassigned seating. I guess as a NW plat I am spoiled though I did get 2C.

Plane was very clean. Staff attitude was positive, service was good and we all even got WN can wraps and a free drink as Thanksgiving presents from WN. Again, ATTITUDE was great.

Baggage service at LAS was fairly quick and bags appeared to have been handled well.

Apart from the unassigned seating, I would say the WN experience from MKE was acceptable although YX has food service. I think the other carriers at MKE should consider WN a viable threat -- and I would say that head to head against AirTran, WN would probably prevail.

Oh, my WN flight was less than half the cost of the return on YX.

With a lot of the things that are currently going on, there is probably a lot of turnover and change at many stations. This may be causing some confusion and growing pains at these stations as they learn.

As for the colder cookies on board the PIT flights, the E35's don't have ovens onboard, unsure about the 145s. The last thing that I heard, when I actually talked to BB awhile ago, is that they have to bake the cookies in the airport where ovens may be available. I'll look into the frozen cookies and see what I can find.

Currently Midwest is hiring alot more call center people, I can see large classrooms across the way in the other building where they're learning. This is an increase because of the Frontier operations that are being pulled in. These new people may help decrease the wait time on the phone for customer complaints, but it won't be for awhile as they get up to speed on many things. Also, the call center is dealing with alot of schedule change calls at the moment which is adding to the wait time. If you have the access, I would recommend the online chat, http://midwestairlines.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/midwestairlines.cfg/php/enduser/live.php . As it sounds they are more responsive. Only drawback is the hours they operate.

Hope this information helps!

Seems every flight on YX has an issue for me these days. The latest is trying to get my NW WorldPerks number in my PNR.

Supposed to be able to do it at booking but it didn't work.

Contacted YX. On 11/17/09 they E-mailed back and said it was taken care of.

Got to LAS today. NW number is not in the PNR. They didn't know how to add it. One of their two counter computers crashed. When it came back up, one agent was able to delete the incorrect YX number and said she put in the correct NW number. Didn't print on boarding pass and still not in PNR.

Contacted YX and was told it was never entered.

What's with these morons?

I think it is a business decision. Same thing happened to me. Changed from the YX number to the NW number three times. Twice in MKE and once in LAS. Did not take anywhere. Called and was told the credit would be put through to the NW account. Still waiting.

I think they just don't want to move the miles to NW for whatever reason, Dick.

Republic got rid of the experienced Midwest pilots and flight attendants to save $2-3 dollars per leg per seat.

Do you think Republic can save the same amount of money in customer service? How about maintenance?

I think it is a business decision. Same thing happened to me. Changed from the YX number to the NW number three times. Twice in MKE and once in LAS. Did not take anywhere. Called and was told the credit would be put through to the NW account. Still waiting.

I think they just don't want to move the miles to NW for whatever reason, Dick.

FYI, You are probably aware that Delta and Northwest have a major merger going on. This ongoing merger entails a massive IT integration effort.

Not to say that Delta does not give a fig about your Midwest flying, but it has its own IT can of worms to deal with with Delta/Northwest.

It'll probably be got to eventually, but I would imagine this is a low priority until Delat Northwest is sorted out.

The drop in customer service shouldn't surprise anyone. The one thing Midwest excelled at was hiring employees. The human resource people did a great job of identifying people who understood customer service. The polar opposite is the Republic replacement workers who were chosen strictly on cost. The only advantage "Midwest" has left is the higher number of direct flights out of Milwaukee. If given a choice I will not fly "Midwest". I care about who I do business with. I can not support a company that has had such a negative impact on our local jobs. I also prefer being flown by career pilots not interns.

I can not support a company that has had such a negative impact on our local jobs.

You do know they are bringing in hundreds of new jobs right? It is not Republic's fault that the old Midwest got rid of the 717s (and the pilots that flew them). Republic is willing to hire those employees back but its in the hands of the unions now.

You do know they are bringing in hundreds of new jobs right? It is not Republic's fault that the old Midwest got rid of the 717s (and the pilots that flew them). Republic is willing to hire those employees back but its in the hands of the unions now.



Republic got rid of the Midwest pilots and Flight Attendants because it's cheaper to hire 1 year employees verses bring back 20-25 year employees.

It's all about saving money and getting rid of the more expensive (senior) labor. Forget about the operational safety a more experienced pilots brings, forget about passing on Midwests way of doing business to new flight attendants, forget about how long a customers is on hold... cheap is better. Republics corporate code.

Republic got rid of the Midwest pilots and Flight Attendants because it's cheaper to hire 1 year employees verses bring back 20-25 year employees.

It's all about saving money and getting rid of the more expensive (senior) labor. Forget about the operational safety a more experienced pilots brings, forget about passing on Midwests way of doing business to new flight attendants, forget about how long a customers is on hold... cheap is better. Republics corporate code.

Again, Midwest is who got rid of the Midwest pilots. It is the old management of Midwest who decided to switch all flying over to regional because they knew they could not stay in business with their high costs. Republic would love to employ all of the old Midwest pilots but they would only do it if it is cost effective. Republic has been just as safe as any other airline or they wouldn't be flying. Republic is constantly improving their customer relations, but give them a chance. They just bought 2 whole airlines. You are very correct that it's all about saving money. If you haven't noticed the economy is still in shambles and people are looking for the cheapest tickets possible. The only way Republic can provide that while staying in business is keeping their costs under control.

Southwest and Airtran offer inexpensive tickets while still having career employees. Why does Republic have to cut corners in their hiring when they directly compete against airlines that don't?

I read a lot of message boards on FlyerTalk. This seems to be the only board where anyone questions the hiring practices of management.

I don't work for Midwest. I have never worked for Midwest. Explain to me why I should care about the hiring practices of Midwest ( Republic ) management when I am choosing an airline.

Southwest and Airtran offer inexpensive tickets while still having career employees. Why does Republic have to cut corners in their hiring when they directly compete against airlines that don't?

Both Southwest and airTran gain from having larger networks and hubs in large metropolitan areas. Milwaukee is not the best place to have a main hub if you want to remain profitable against airlines that can provide low fares and have operations in large metropolitan areas.

Before Midwest was operating in a city with high fares, not because of service, but because of the lack of low cost or major competition in the market. Therefore they were able to pay their pilots fair wages, but then fuel-prices, low cost competition, and the economy came to Milwaukee and stomped it out.

Also, from what I've heard, but don't quote me, airtran pilots and flight attendants are getting paid far less than what the senior Midwest crews were getting paid.

-- Beware of some ranting below, sorry. --

Please don't try to push a lot of this blame on TH. For the short time I knew him he was a great guy. I'm sure he tried his best to keep the pilots and flight attendants working. But the unions weren't making it easy for him, citing their famous words "Full Pay, till the last day!". He needed them to take further pay cuts to help keep costs down and allow him to keep a small airline competitive against the, larger, low cost carrier airtran. But since his management team wasn't allowed to do this he had to make job and route cuts.

If it wasn't for TH's efforts and that of Republic, Midwest would have gone to the way side along with the other 700 employees that are not crew. But now we have the great news that the 700 jobs that are in Milwaukee will stay and that Republic will add about 800 more jobs over the coming years! How is this not a good thing for Milwaukee and Midwest? We're struggling in a bad economy where people need jobs and Midwest is now offering them.

Of course Midwest pilots and flight attendants will always have the chance to come back and work for Republic, but, yes, they probably won't do it, because Republic crew pay isn't as great as they were used too.

I also feel that the unions should be held a little bit more responsible for greater job losses across all of Midwest's operations than what management was. Their unwillingness to cooperate caused more hardship for everyone including themselves, because of their stance, "Full Pay, till the last day." Now this sounds to me that they were looking to put the company out of business, along with the other airline's workers, so they could get their usual, high salary pay check. How selfish is that?

Anyways I enjoy reading all your comments. It's always great to read other people opinions on matters. These comments will always help to provide better services to people that fly Midwest.

Management people always want to blame labor.

Midwest pilots only asked for industry average wages and benefits. They were willing to fly 19 seat turbo-props if it would help Midwest.

The Facts....

Midwests 10 year Captains pay $128 per flight hour (free labor if the airplane is parked)

AirTrans 10 year Captain pay $144 per flight hour

Southwest 10 year Captain pay $201 per flight hour


Labor costs were not the problem, but a opportunity for Republic with low time, less experienced pilot that have flown an average of say 3 years in the airline industry.

The problem at Midwest was it needed to change the aircraft fleet because TH bought the wrong equipment (looking in hide sight) 8 years ago.

I read a lot of message boards on FlyerTalk. This seems to be the only board where anyone questions the hiring practices of management.

I don't work for Midwest. I have never worked for Midwest. Explain to me why I should care about the hiring practices of Midwest ( Republic ) management when I am choosing an airline.


Why should you care?

1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane

Republic is using less experienced pilots, reducing pilot training to FAA minimums, paying FA so little that they don't feel they need to give the customer service Midwest is known for,... to name a few.

Maybe Republic will change course after buying itself into a Real Airline. Cheap is not alway better in aviation.

People, you get what you pay for. The heart of YX was torn out when the people that made the brand what it is today were terminated. By the way, all of the YX CSR's will become Frontier employees shortly. Just whose brand do you think will be flying in the next couple of years?

Why should you care?
1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane


1, 2 and 4 are part of my experience in using the product. I will evaluate that experience as I use the product and welcome comments on your experiences in using the product. To date, I don't believe you have ever posted about your experiences flying Midwest.

3 - Sorry, but you have not convinced me that Midwest is an unsafe airline.

2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA

If you want Delta In-flight service then fly Delta.
Management people always want to blame labor.

Midwest pilots only asked for industry average wages and benefits. They were willing to fly 19 seat turbo-props if it would help Midwest.

The Facts....

Midwests 10 year Captains pay $128 per flight hour (free labor if the airplane is parked)

AirTrans 10 year Captain pay $144 per flight hour

Southwest 10 year Captain pay $201 per flight hour

Labor costs were not the problem, but a opportunity for Republic with low time, less experienced pilot that have flown an average of say 3 years in the airline industry.

You make it sound as if Republic is against using experienced pilots. That is definitely not the case. You still have not stated your beef with Republic other than they pay less than average. Republic is not Airtran or Southwest and is not in a financial position to match what those airlines pay their pilots. Should Midwest/Frontier/Republic become sustainably profitable they have no reason not to increase pay rates but at this time and in this economy it just isn't possible.

People, you get what you pay for. The heart of YX was torn out when the people that made the brand what it is today were terminated. By the way, all of the YX CSR's will become Frontier employees shortly. Just whose brand do you think will be flying in the next couple of years?

In the end if Frontier comes out as "The Brand" to live on and Midwest dies, does it really matter? As long as Frontier operates the route structure that Midwest has I am more than happy to fly Frontier...They have a great on-board product with DirecTV, they have a decent on-board food menu and their staff has been pretty good in my experience.

The problem is trying to establish the Frontier brand on the east coast...as mentioned in another thread it is virtually an unknown, whereas Midwest has some name recognition.

But then again, is really anyone going to miss Northwest? Brands disappear all the time and the Republic team will definitely be tested in the creation of their Brand strategy and how they execute.

In the end if Frontier comes out as "The Brand" to live on and Midwest dies, does it really matter? As long as Frontier operates the route structure that Midwest has I am more than happy to fly Frontier...They have a great on-board product with DirecTV, they have a decent on-board food menu and their staff has been pretty good in my experience.

The problem is trying to establish the Frontier brand on the east coast...as mentioned in another thread it is virtually an unknown, whereas Midwest has some name recognition.

But then again, is really anyone going to miss Northwest? Brands disappear all the time and the Republic team will definitely be tested in the creation of their Brand strategy and how they execute.



I agree that the Frontier Brand most likely lives on.

The problem is the Midwest Brand has east coast recognition, has won service awards for years, has a NWA/Delta code-share agreement and can charge a ticket premium over Frontier, AirTran or Southwest.

Is there less downside killing the Frontier Brand? How loyal are DEN passengers to Frontier?

... By the way, all of the YX CSR's will become Frontier employees shortly. Just whose brand do you think will be flying in the next couple of years?

This is only because Frontier has the human resources technology, man power, and similar benefits to handle Midwest Airlines employees. Republic does not. Right now Midwest doesn't have much of a human resources group as Frontier and Republic have been taking over these responsibilities.

FYI, You are probably aware that Delta and Northwest have a major merger going on. This ongoing merger entails a massive IT integration effort.

Not to say that Delta does not give a fig about your Midwest flying, but it has its own IT can of worms to deal with with Delta/Northwest.

It'll probably be got to eventually, but I would imagine this is a low priority until Delat Northwest is sorted out.

My NW/DL frequent flyer number failing to be recognized, or changed, in the YX system would hardly be a Delta issue. It would be a Midwest IT issue.

Northwest and Delta are merging?? Who knew??

1, 2 and 4 are part of my experience in using the product. I will evaluate that experience as I use the product and welcome comments on your experiences in using the product. To date, I don't believe you have ever posted about your experiences flying Midwest.

3 - Sorry, but you have not convinced me that Midwest is an unsafe airline.

I'm not saying Midwest is unsafe, but the safety level (in my opinion) has been lowered. Here's a WSJ article on airline safty...


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125962778738870517.html


One paragraph from the article is a good summary.

...Major airlines aren't immune to serious lapses, as shown in October when a Northwest Airlines plane overshot its Minneapolis destination by 100-plus miles and went radio-silent for 78 minutes. No one was hurt. Yet since 2003 commuter airlines have had a serious-accident rate per 100,000 departures 10 times that of major airlines, according to government and industry data, not to mention scores of unpublicized close calls.

Why should you care?

1. If you don't like holding on the line for reservations.
2. If you want different In-Flight service then say Delta/NWA
3. If you want experienced pilots flying when your aircraft hits a flock of birds
4. If you want help with your children when you board the airplane

Republic is using less experienced pilots, reducing pilot training to FAA minimums, paying FA so little that they don't feel they need to give the customer service Midwest is known for,... to name a few.

Maybe Republic will change course after buying itself into a Real Airline. Cheap is not alway better in aviation.

#1 Don't know but when I call have never had a problem
#2 Yeah okay cause they are so much better (rolls eyes)
#3 So when The plane I was working 6 weeks ago hit a flock of birds on landing and had to be towed to the gate my pilots weren't experienced? They were both just furloughed TWA pilots... BTW we lost both engines and glided the rest of the way. We had 24 pax and no injuries

Hey how about my lightning strike on landing in IND at 11k where we lost a chunk of the tail, landing gear doors, static wicks, and popped a tire on the main gear. I had a 3y reserve CA (he left Comair after 6 years) and a reserve 2y FO (he left corporate flying). Now mind you the same bolt of lightning struck a mainline US A319 a rendered its primary electronic useless. I had 86 Pax 4 were UM's a total of 14 under 12, 6 wheelchairs, 2 of those were blind and one was deaf. We landed safely.

Try not to insult people who you haven't a clue about. Not every incident makes it on page one of the WSJ...

#4 I don't know what airline would help you with your kids... I will help you with your bags, I will help you with getting things for your kids, but your kids are YOUR kids not mine. You knew when you bought your tickets what was going to have to be done with YOUR kids.


Okay now for the pay issue. RAH is only on its 2nd contract. Almost every major carrier has at least 5 to 10 amendments to their contracts. When the pilots signed the agreements there weren’t "larger" regional jets and none of the pilots ever thought that there would be a 99 seat aircraft on the property. It takes time to get amazing pay rates as any WN pilot will tell you. Funny those Pilots at US make less than Pilots at RAH on the Ejets.

Now for the F/A's well we are not the least paid in the industry. That little gem belongs to US Airways West side. A step up from them is United. Then NW and OO. All of those on a Monthly basis make less than RAH F/A's. Per hour UA does make more however they have a lower monthly guarantee.

NW has some of the worst work rules. I.e. a reserve picks up a 20 hour 4 day. That 20 hrs goes towards the 75hr guarantee. If the F/A doesn't work any of her reserve days then she will only get 75hrs. If a RAH F/A picks up a 20hr 4 day trip and is available for all reserve days they will get 95hrs of pay.

RAH has one of the highest domestic per diem rates of any carrier at $1.75 per hour starting 45 min. prior to first departure and ending 15 minutes after last block in.

So why do any of us work for RAH. Well it comes down to quality of life. Reserve periods for pilots and F/A's are short at the most 2 years. I personally make over 30k, more than I would if I had a 9-5 in my area where the average wage is less than 20K. I get three weeks of paid vacation and 2 weeks of sick leave. I work 16 days a month or less. Our reserves are guaranteed 11 days off. My health insurance is the best I have ever had. I have flight benefits on 4 carriers (US,UA,F9,YX). I can commute to base. I have agreements with other carriers to use their flights. Did I mention that I only work 4 days a week?


Anything else...

Okay now for the pay issue. RAH is only on its 2nd contract. Almost every major carrier has at least 5 to 10 amendments to their contracts. When the pilots signed the agreements there weren’t "larger" regional jets and none of the pilots ever thought that there would be a 99 seat aircraft on the property. It takes time to get amazing pay rates as any WN pilot will tell you. Funny those Pilots at US make less than Pilots at RAH on the Ejets.

Anything else...

You guys need to show some backbone. You know Republic management is going to argue that the E-190s are just big E-170s and pay you the same. :D

You shouldn't be flying that close to lighting and thunderstorms. Think you need more training (experience) on the use of RADAR.

You guys need to show some backbone. You know Republic management is going to argue that the E-190s are just big E-170s and pay you the same. :D

Our pilots can't argue anything until more seats are added to the plane. Since RAH's contract is by seats and not aircraft type the company is within the contract.

You shouldn't be flying that close to lighting and thunderstorms. Think you need more training (experience) on the use of RADAR.

Danny Fyne, moderator of the pilots' website, P-Prune, said: "I would estimate that 90 per cent of pilots have been hit by lightning.

"It really isn't a problem for aircraft. I was hit coming out of Gatwick. There was a bang and I had the engineers look at it."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/5423851/Air-France-planeLightning-strikes-on-aircraft-are-commonplace.html

It happens.

You shouldn't be flying that close to lighting and thunderstorms. Think you need more training (experience) on the use of RADAR.

grasping at straws....

grasping at straws....



In over 20 years of flying airline passengers, I never had a lightning strike or any damage to a aircraft.

WSJ article...

Major airlines aren't immune to serious lapses, as shown in October when a Northwest Airlines plane overshot its Minneapolis destination by 100-plus miles and went radio-silent for 78 minutes. No one was hurt. Yet since 2003 commuter airlines have had a serious-accident rate per 100,000 departures 10 times that of major airlines, according to government and industry data, not to mention scores of unpublicized close calls.


ps. In 20 yrs I never had a near miss accident crossing a active runway without clearance.

In over 20 years of flying airline passengers, I never had a lightning strike or any damage to a aircraft.

WSJ article...

Major airlines aren't immune to serious lapses, as shown in October when a Northwest Airlines plane overshot its Minneapolis destination by 100-plus miles and went radio-silent for 78 minutes. No one was hurt. Yet since 2003 commuter airlines have had a serious-accident rate per 100,000 departures 10 times that of major airlines, according to government and industry data, not to mention scores of unpublicized close calls.


ps. In 20 yrs I never had a near miss accident crossing a active runway without clearance.


The cause of which has yet to be determined. However the media latched onto a near miss we had that involved an inexperienced ATC that cleared a OO plane and ordered them to stop on the intersection right in front of our plane taking off. Our plane cleared them by less than 50ft. The captain has been with RAH about ten years and she worked corporate before that. Instead of posting remarks that a media outlet twisted for their own benefit why don't you put your efforts into changing the industry at the government level and not the passenger. It just makes you sound like a 2 year old whining to mommy...

P.S. RAH planes fly more members of Congress, Cabinet, and Court than any other carrier...

Heres another thought to ponder... North American Airlines flies our troops here, there and to the ends of the earth... There crews fly DFW-KWI as a turn with only a 2 hour stopover. Should that be allowed? They get by with it because they have 4 pilots and 10 F/A's on a B767... 20hrs of flying in 24hrs..

Sorry this took awhile, but I have the answer for the cold cookie issue out of Pittsburgh from Leo our VP of Consumer Affairs.

He says because the small Embraer, E135's and E145's do not have ovens onboard, the cookies will be cold, but should not be frozen. If you run into any frozen cookies let me know and we will look into it further.

Hope this helps!

In over 20 years of flying airline passengers, I never had a lightning strike or any damage to a aircraft.

WSJ article...

Major airlines aren't immune to serious lapses, as shown in October when a Northwest Airlines plane overshot its Minneapolis destination by 100-plus miles and went radio-silent for 78 minutes. No one was hurt. Yet since 2003 commuter airlines have had a serious-accident rate per 100,000 departures 10 times that of major airlines, according to government and industry data, not to mention scores of unpublicized close calls.


ps. In 20 yrs I never had a near miss accident crossing a active runway without clearance.

And just where did you start your commercial flying? So, you are saying that your first day on the job, you were by definition an unsafe pilot? Everyone starts somewhere. Last time I looked nobody started with an instant 20 years of senority carrying around passangers.

And who caused the worst passanger airplane disaster in history? Regional pilot?

And just where did you start your commercial flying? So, you are saying that your first day on the job, you were by definition an unsafe pilot? Everyone starts somewhere. Last time I looked nobody started with an instant 20 years of senority carrying around passangers.

And who caused the worst passanger airplane disaster in history? Regional pilot?




I guess I learned a few things after many years flying from the right seat.
How do you think first officers learn how to handle abnormal events?

And it's not in the simulator...

I guess I learned a few things after many years flying from the right seat.
How do you think first officers learn how to handle abnormal events?

And it's not in the simulator...

And your passengers were unwise to fly with you then? Were they unwise to fly with you your first several years in the left seat?

My NW/DL frequent flyer number failing to be recognized, or changed, in the YX system would hardly be a Delta issue. It would be a Midwest IT issue.

Wrong. Your DL/NWA FF# is validated by DL/NWA IT systems before being accepted by the YX application. If DL/NWA reject, or don't respond, it won't populate the YX record.

I guess I learned a few things after many years flying from the right seat.
How do you think first officers learn how to handle abnormal events?

And it's not in the simulator...

Don't forget the hours of GA and commercial (or military) flying that you built just to get an interview. Times are different... Used to be you needed hundreds of hours to get an interview for a job flying 19-seat Metros. Then, after a couple of years, you could start thinking about competing for a panel or right seat of a small mainline jet. Today, just a couple of hundred hours at "Airline Pilot Academy" (and $100K) will put you directly in the right seat of a just about anything up to and including an E-190.

You don't give a 16 year-old the keys to a BMW M5 (my favorite) just because they meet the minimum driving standards established by the government. Or maybe you do... I wouldn't.

And your passengers were unwise to fly with you then? Were they unwise to fly with you your first several years in the left seat?

I'm curious, what do you do? With the Delta PM and other loyalty programs you have status in, I want your job. Where do I apply? I have a bachelors and masters degree. Does that meet min requirements? I assume I can build all the experience I need on the job. I have to start somewhere, you know...

And your passengers were unwise to fly with you then? Were they unwise to fly with you your first several years in the left seat?


Don't think so... no accidents or Company/FAA reportable incidents as Captain.

Talking about unwise or unsafe. Have you heard about the Republic policy about pilots calling in sick? If a pilot has been sick more than three times in a year he/she is putting their job at risk if they call in sick again. Unwise.

Midwest legacy pilots were allowed to call in sick without question... they would lose that days pay, but could bid for more flying later in the month.

Talking about unwise or unsafe. Have you heard about the Republic policy about pilots calling in sick? If a pilot has been sick more than three times in a year he/she is putting their job at risk if they call in sick again. Unwise.

Midwest legacy pilots were allowed to call in sick without question... they would lose that days pay, but could bid for more flying later in the month.

Okay about this policy you might want to get the whole policy out there not just part of it. First off the unions of RAH agreed to the policy that covers every RAH below management employee. Next the employee is allowed 7 occurrences and on the 8th occurrence is termination. An occurrence is for attendance only it does not include any discipline but to performance related issues. After one year from the date of incident (i.e. sick call, unavailable, missed trip) the occurrence(s) come off the record for pilots and F/A's are every 6 months so long as there isn't any attendance issue for 6 months otherwise its after a year. A sick call is worth one occurrence per illness and covers all days until return. For instance Pilot/F/A calls in for a 4 day trip and returns for a two day but becomes sick again for another 4 day it will result in 2 occurrences. However if the pilot/F/A calls off for the 4 day, 2day and 4day then it will only be 1 occurrence. If the trip is during a holiday or longer than 3 days it will require doctor’s excuse. The pilot/F/A gets a verbal warning at 4 & 7 occurrences to remind them of their occurrences and it also gives the employee the chance to review their occurrences, along with the union to dispute any irregularities. The warnings are just that warnings they are not counted with discipline.

Now something that all pilots and F/A's can do for EVERY sick call is to apply for FMLA. Most of us have the normal sinus/headache/ear issues set up on an intermittent basis and just get a Drs excuse. We also can apply for other things that happen that may not be covered under the intermittent. The company offers us 26 weeks of FMLA for any employee that has been with the company more than a year and planned unavailable for those that haven't to cover other issues. For pilots/F/A our 26 weeks is counted as 182 working days because of our work schedules. FMLA calls do not count as any occurrence for pilots or F/A's and FMLA calls for F/A's do not count towards overall attendance awards (F/A's get an extra 4 hours vacation for every six months of perfect attendance and another 8 hours vacation for every 12months perfect attendance).

So what else would you like to discuss...

I think you better have this talk with the Republic pilots. They seem to think their job is at risk if they call in sick.

Wow, has this thread gone Off Topic.

I have talked with them about it. There are a rare few that like to complain about things that they have no idea about...

Perhaps it's time for this particular thread to retire...

Let us put this topic back on track. Yes it is Midworst now. Since Republic purchased the brand the product has suffered in every metrix.

-Smaller airplanes
-Less qualified employees
-A corporate culture that concentrates only on CASM
-Customer service provided by new, underpaid, unmotivated employees
-A commuter airline mentality that does the basic minimum in maintenance and employee training

They should of bought the Northwest name not the Midwest name. They are trying to be Ryan Air while still using a premium branding history. When you buy a steak and get a hamburger you feel cheated. When you buy a ticket on "Midwest" and get a commuter or a LLC seat you are also cheated. We will hire the cheapest employees, do only basic training, and duct tape the plane to get you there for the cheapest seat in the industry. This CASM at any cost will probably work for Republic. They need to rebrand the product to bring down customers expectations to match their corporate culture. Republic, "the Greyhound of the air", would be a good start.

I'm with knope on this one...Hoeksma sold out and there is a new owner who is trying to make the airline financially stable which he couldnt do.

Finally to say that the product only got worse and everyone is flying E-Jets is wrong. For the people that fly every week, like me, the product has changed, but I dont think necessarily everything was for the worse. They have added free beverages on all flights and free TV on the A319's for Executives. The E190's are going to have signature seating; the A319's are going to have "stretch" seating...They are adding direct flights from Milwaukee from back in the day that Hoeksma had taken away.

From what I see as a customer who spends well over $10K on airline tickets a year the arrow is pointing up...and sorry to say it, but that is who matters.

As for the other option that Midwest had, which was going with Airtran, it looks like the pilots would have been just as upset with the leadership because of this Skywest deal that Airtran pulled together: http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/07/daily66.html?ed=2009-12-11&ana=e_du_pub

BB (the accountant) explains the new Midworst...

“The Midwest product has always produced a RASM premium over competition but at a substantial CASM premium as well. Our job was simple – could we buy company and operate it at our costs and we’ve done that. We’ve dismantled everything that was Midwest. There is no operating certificate, no unions, no anything. It is a virtual airline providing capacity sourced either through Republic with the E-Jets or Frontier with its A319s. We’ve eliminated the CASM problems and hope we retained the RASM premium.”

Again BB talks about the money verses the product. No talk about customer service, improving the product, meeting MKE passengers needs... the guy only talks about reducing CASM.

Milwaukee needs to send this guy a message. Fly Southwest or AirTran.

Milwaukee needs to send this guy a message. Fly Southwest or AirTran.

If that is going to happen then Airtran and/or Southwest better start flying to Hawaii and/or International because the perks of being able to redeem Midwest miles for flights on Delta to these destinations is a major perk that neither of those airlines can match.

Milwaukee needs to send this guy a message. Fly Southwest or AirTran.

You continue to not get it. Nobody who reads this board, who actually flies, has any intention of sending anyone 'a message'. We will take the airline that best fills our needs. Nothing that you have posted addresses that.

Not everyone who reads this board exclusively or even primarily flies Midwest. However, I believe some of the more negative participants are long past the point of diminishing returns.

Everybody has their own perspective, and for regular readers we often have a good idea of what a post will say just by seeing who wrote it. But beyond a certain point...such as posting the same thing over and over in different threads...every additional post decreases the message. Eventually it makes people annoyed, unsympathetic, and dismissive. Doesn't win many converts, and eventually it becomes nothing but counterproductive to your cause.

Not everyone who reads this board exclusively or even primarily flies Midwest. However, I believe some of the more negative participants are long past the point of diminishing returns.

Everybody has their own perspective, and for regular readers we often have a good idea of what a post will say just by seeing who wrote it. But beyond a certain point...such as posting the same thing over and over in different threads...every additional post decreases the message. Eventually it makes people annoyed, unsympathetic, and dismissive. Doesn't win many converts, and eventually it becomes nothing but counterproductive to your cause.

Knope, this is an internet forum, catering to a handful of airline junkies, not the UN General Assembly. Nobody's trying to convert anyone to their cause. FT is a place to be cathartic, vent, have fun, learn, connect, be a medium for advertising, while discussing airlines. Personally, it's a fun way to develop my thoughts and arguments... What it's not is a single individual's virtual clubhouse. As long as posters abide by the forum rules, they can write whatever they want and I hope it stays that way.

I don't know about you, but I'm definitely not logging in to be "productive."

Again BB talks about the money verses the product. No talk about customer service, improving the product, meeting MKE passengers needs... the guy only talks about reducing CASM.



Nice try, but what you posted above isn't even close to being accurate. I'm not sure if this is because you simply haven't been paying attention to what Bedford has been saying the last couple of months or (more likely) you're letting all of your animosity and bitterness towards Republic skews your thinking. Regardless, it's time to clear up some of your misrepresentations.

First, Bryan Bedford has talked extensively about improving the product and growing the route network to meet the needs of the MKE based passengers.

This past August Bedford sat down with Flight Global for an in-depth interview. Among other things, he said:

1) The significant capacity reductions implemented by Midwest in September 2008 had "been destructive to the brand in Milwaukee. Customers there really want to support Midwest, but the airline has to support the customer too and it has to give them great schedules to the destinations they need to go to conduct business on a year-round basis."

2) The E190 is "exactly the right aircraft" for the off-peak season, when a significant amount of leisure traffic dries up. "What a lot of companies do is serve it seasonally. We're going to serve it year-round. The 190 is going to be a real competitive advantage for us over the winter."

3) . "It's hard to be the carrier of choice if you can't serve the top 35 out of 50 local O&D markets in your hometown marketplace. Again, Midwest is not delivering on its consumer promise to be the carrier of choice because we don't fly where you want to go, because we can't afford it. Well now we can afford it."

Since that time, Republic has begun restoring the route network and will continue to do so well into 2010. Within the last month or so, Bedford has said that more E190s and A319s will be ear-marked for MKE service. That will include the addition of new routes (at least six are currently under consideration) and frequency increases in other markets.

Additionally, Republic has taken steps to improve the onboard experience as well. There are now enhanced benefits for all elite level fliers. Republic is also seriously considering adding IFE and WiFi to a big chunk of the fleet. More positive changes will be rolled-out in 2010. Everything is in transition at this point so some patience will be required.

It seems to me that Republic is very much aware of what needs to be done to strengthen the brand in Milwaukee and have already taken a number of steps to do so.

As for your gripes about CASM, most people on this board are well aware of how razor thin profit margins are for the airlines these days. Every penny counts. Bedford needs to keep a laser focus on costs to ensure that Republic remains profitable and competitive. That's his responsibility as a CEO and why he's running the company and not you.

I just flew them to LAS and back. Nice ride on the A319. 160,000 BIS miles with YX, DL/NW. I have no issues. More comfortable than the back end of a 717. I consider everything else Blah, Blah, Blah.

I just flew them to LAS and back. Nice ride on the A319. 160,000 BIS miles with YX, DL/NW. I have no issues. More comfortable than the back end of a 717. I consider everything else Blah, Blah, Blah.

If you'd flown on DL/NW, you might have gotten a free upgrade to first ;)

Everybody has their own perspective, and for regular readers we often have a good idea of what a post will say just by seeing who wrote it.

True, true. I know if it says N735 or Pigeye01, I just don't bother reading...

Knope, this is an internet forum, catering to a handful of airline junkies, not the UN General Assembly. Nobody's trying to convert anyone to their cause.

Did you manage to keep a straight face when you wrote that? A handful of seem quite focused on trashing Midwest Airlines. It doesn't matter whether you fess up to it or not...the posts speak for themselves.

Since Republic purchased the brand the product has suffered in every metrix.

-Smaller airplanes

A319's taking over for 717's is larger, not smaller, planes. E190 for 717 is nearly an even swap. The standard seating section of the E190 / E170 is more comfortable than the standard seating section of the 717.

-Less qualified employees

Employees? You mean pilots and F/A, don't you. Every single pilot and flight attendent is fully qualified. Prove otherwise.

Undoubtedly the pilots and flight attendents on the E190's and E170's average fewer years of experience than the 717 crews let go since Republic purchased Midwest. However does that mean they are not qualified?

If more years of experience makes all the difference, than the best thing that ever happend at Midwest Airlines safetywise was when all those junior crew members with only a few years of experience were laid off. After all, they were all "less qualified", right?

And before somebody chimes to quote that same Wall Street Journal story about accident rates, let's hear some specifics on the the supposedly unqualified pilots at Republic flying E170 and E190.

-A corporate culture that concentrates only on CASM

Midwest's problems were primarily about CASM, and that absolutely must be the focus. Facing an all-out assault by a carrier with a lower CASM pretty much dicates this. That doesn't mean they can take their RASM advantage for granted, and they need to keep focused on that. But the RASM advantage doesn't coime from the cookie. Nor from the pilots.


-Customer service provided by new, underpaid, unmotivated employees

The large majority of front line Midwest employees have been there for years, and many of them took serious pay cuts years back yet chose to stay with it. There are exceptions, of course, but many of these are the very same people who "built the brand". And when it comes to new hires, Midwest like most airlines has paid crummy starting wages for decades.


-A commuter airline mentality that does the basic minimum in maintenance and employee training

Got some proof, or just making more sladerous accusations? Plenty of big airlines including Southwest, American, United, and USAirways have faced big fines from the FAA for violations.


Republic got rid of the experienced Midwest pilots and flight attendants to save $2-3 dollars per leg per seat.

AirTran's profit in the 3rd quarter comes out to $1.33 per seat. That $2-3 per seat per leg is not insignificant.

Midwests 10 year Captains pay $128 per flight hour (free labor if the airplane is parked)

AirTrans 10 year Captain pay $144 per flight hour

Southwest 10 year Captain pay $201 per flight hour

Labor costs were not the problem

No, labor costs were definitely part of the problem.

1. A more meaningful comparison is cost per seat per hour, not just cost per hour. A couple of reasons:

Midwest 717
$1.29 ($128/99 seats)

AirTran 717
$1.23 ($144/117 seats)
AirTran 737
$1.05 ($144/137 seats)

Southwest 737
$1.58 ($201/137 seats)

Frontier A319
$1.07 ($146/136 seats)

USAirways 737-300
$1.01 ($134.70/134 seats)

Delta M88
$1.01 ($144/142 seats)

United A319
$1.12 ($133.97/120 seats)

Southwest's pay rates are hardly average...they are well above just about everybody's for simiarly-sized aircraft. And Southwest is struggling to make money these days.

2. Midwest's 717 crews were almost certainly a lot further up the pay scale ladder than the competition. That's for a couple of reasons. First, last year's contraction meant layoffs of more junior employees. Second, at most airlines the more senior crews move up to larger aircraft. So a ten-year AirTran pilot probably has long since moved up to the 737, for example, where the higher pay they earn is better offset by the larger capacity of the 737.

Comparing a ten-year Midwest pilot to a ten-year AirTran pilot isn't a very likely real-world comparison. It's morel like a 15-year Midwest 717 pilot earning $148/hr....$1.50 per seat hour...versus a 4-year AirTran 717 pilot earning $112/hr....$0.96 per seat hour. The cost per seat in this scenario would be some 56% higher for Midwest than AirTran.


3. Midwest's 717 scale topped out at the very same rate, $153 per hour, that AirTran tops out at...at YX it took 16 years to hit the cap, but at AirTran it only took 12 years. However when it came time to cut the payroll checks, Midwest had quite a few 717 pilots earning at or near the cap, but AirTran likely has almost nobody flying the 717 earning close to the cap.

It's a lot more complicated than simply looking at hourly pay rates and proclaiming there wasn't a labor cost issue at Midwest.

YX loyalty, hence the higher RASM he desires, was a result of good wages that kept dedicated employees from leaving for other companies, kept employees positive and happy, and culminated in a special flying experience for passengers.

Wow...you have absolutely no clue how little front line employees earned through the history at Midwest. You think good wages kept dedicated employees from leaving for other companies? Ha! For years the way that many full-timers made working-class-family-supporting wages at front line jobs was by working 15-25 hours of overtime week after week after week.

He's using the reputation of the Midwest brand to make money, nothing else

Republic bought the Midwest brand, and for the purpose of making money...why else would they have done so?

not keep dedicated employees, not maintain high levels of service

Hundreds of Midwest employees remain. Not the pilots or flight attendents, (although 40+ Midwest F/A have moved over as of a few weeks ago). For all the talk of the "hard working Midwest employees who built the brand", many of the vocal pilots and pilot supporters would appear to see today's Midwest go under and put the hundreds of remaining front-line employees...including many employees who had a lot more customer touch to "build the brand" than pilots.

not maintain high levels of service

How? Same front line ground employees, for the most part. The coach seats of the E190/E170 are better than that on the 717. The ERJ/ER3 seating is more comfortable than the departing CRJ's. And the 319's...and apparently with more plane types following suit...have better onboard entertainment than ever. As for inflight service, the best onboard service I have had in the past couple of years has come not from the old-guard YX F/A but from Skywest, and in one case Republic, inflight crews. One could argue that those OO employees are moving over to FL* so go there for the good service...fair enough...but the point of this is that there isn't any special magic to the YX F/A that others can't possess.

not be a good corporate citizen

Because they laid people off? Then there aren't a whole lot of good corporate citizens these days. They didn't have to bring the A319, E190 or E170 mechanics here, nor the added res jobs...hundreds total. Midwest sponsors all sorts of charitable events in Milwaukee. Just in the past week or so they've been involved with Childrens' Hospital, Feeding America Eastern Wisconsin, and the Midwest Athletes Against Childhood Cancer fund.


Without a doubt I have concerns, mixed feelings and reservations about certain things which I see or hear of when it comes to Midwest. I'd like to discuss those things, but in an environment where thread after thread is hijacked with a barrage from angry pilots/pilot supporters...and repeated again and again and again...it makes reasonable discussion nearly impossible.

Knope2001 owns this webboard more than anyone. You post facts, I have posted facts...

You know Midwest flew the B717 with 88-99 seat to help keep that 156% RASM premium, but you post AirTran B717 crew costs per hour using 117 seats.

Why, to show that Midwest pilots were paid too much? What a joke.

The real problem at Midwest was not labor costs, fuel costs, or the cost of equipment leases. Many other airlines make a profit flying B717 and MD80. I think these two items are 90% of Midwests CASM problem.

#1 TH bought the wrong equipment in the B717 and the D328. Both aircraft stopped production, you can't grow Midwest with these aircraft and repair parts were getting expensive.

#2 TH didn't react fast enough to the internet affect on ticket sales. Shopping prices became every easy. The managemnet was slow to react because they wanted to keep that RASM premium.

Republic needed Midwest and/or Frontier to protect against the majors dictating contract terms in 2013-2017. They had the equipment... good job Bryan Bedford.

But Republic has run a "pay for depart" airline and puts little time into customer service. The accident rate at regionals is FACT, Bedfords one dimensional focus on CASM is a FACT, the employee busting approach to Midwest is a FACT, and from what I hear the loss of customer service attitude at Midwest is a FACT.

Knope2001 owns this webboard more than anyone. You post facts, I have posted facts...

You know Midwest flew the B717 with 88-99 seat to help keep that 156% RASM premium, but you post AirTran B717 crew costs per hour using 117 seats.

Why, to show that Midwest pilots were paid too much? What a joke.


Where do you get that Midwest had a 156% revenue premium over AirTran? From the most recent quarter, Midwest's premium over AirTran:

4% Atlanta
43% Boston
23% Denver
24% Las Vegas
24% Los Angeles
27% NY LaGuardia
8% Orlando
20% Tampa
39% Washington

Midwest's revenue premium is not and was not primarily about the premium seating. Proof of this is that it has persisted over the years even when mainline (2x2) downgraded to RJ, it presisted when Saver (2x3) replaced Signature (2x2), and it persisted when the 717's were changed from all-2x2 to mixed class where 2x3 requried an upcharge.

The comparisons I posted were 99-seat YX 717 versus 117-seat FL 717. But the numbers per seat are even worse when comparing the YX 717 to the AirTran 737, which is paid at the same rate as the 717.

It's not the pilots' fault that the airline they worked for put fewer seats on the 717. It's not the pilots' fault that their ranks were exceptionally high up on the pay scale. It's quite understandable and expected that they feel blamed for these things which are not their doing. But the fact that these two things were not the pilots' doing do not change the economic reality that both of those factors make the old model unworkable.

Many other airlines make a profit flying B717 and MD80. I think these two items are 90% of Midwests CASM problem.

#1 TH bought the wrong equipment in the B717 and the D328. Both aircraft stopped production, you can't grow Midwest with these aircraft and repair parts were getting expensive.

The 717 was a very good choice back when the decision was made. It was essentially a replacement for the D9S that offered the same seating but far lower costs. That the 717 is a short-run aircraft isn't the issue...doesn't seem to be hurting AirTran. Where the 717 runs into trouble now is that it's the wrong size in the new environment. Midwest's 88-seat all 2x2 seating simply is no longer viable...not even close. But increasing the plane to regular seating like AirTran (117 seats) is too large for most MKE business markets during much of the year. Peak flights at peak times, sure. But just too big elsewhere. For the leisure routes it's too small...the cost per seat mile of the 737 and A319 is significantly less than the 717.


#2 TH didn't react fast enough to the internet affect on ticket sales. Shopping prices became every easy. The managemnet was slow to react because they wanted to keep that RASM premium.

The FRJ was absolutely the right aircraft at the time the decision was made some 12 years ago. (1) It was part of a family of aircraft which would allow them to right-size based on mission (2) Midwest needed RJ's to compete with the RJ's other airlines were starting to throw at Milwaukee, and the backlog on the CRJ and ERJ at the time meant Midwest would get their first RJ's two years later than the FRJ (3) The smaller size of the FRJ was a much better fit to replace the BE1, where going from 19-seat to 50-seat CRJ/ERJ was too much of a jump. Other airlines primarily replaced things like ATRs, Dash 8, and Saab 340's with CRJ/ERJ aircraft.

Where Midwest really fell short in my opinion was in not recognizing the relentless pressure on yield was a trend and not just a matter of immediate circumstance. Hindsight is of course 20/20, and if Midwest had radcially transformed themselves from their traditional model to an all-coach LCC in 1999, I can only imagine the upheaval and anger from within. But if they'd recognize what was coming, the FRJ and 717 decisions would have gone differently.

Knope2001 owns this webboard more than anyone.

I would hardly say knope "owns" the Midwest forum on FlyerTalk. He has been a level headed and rationale voice on this board for the last couple of years. Frankly, he was a very welcome addition and brings insights, analysis, and perspectives that others can't for a variety of reasons. Hopefully he continues to post given the direction of these threads over the last month or so.

There are many others who contribute regularly to the often spirited discussions regarding all things Midwest.

It seems to me you want to dominate every thread by making outrageous accusations regarding the safety/maintenance practices of Republic or the qualifications of the flight crews. When challenged with actual facts, the best you can do is simply say knope "owns" this forum. Oh wait...you do have that WSJ article that you keep quoting like it's some smoking gun.

Midwest's revenue premium is not and was not primarily about the premium seating. Proof of this is that it has persisted over the years even when mainline (2x2) downgraded to RJ, it presisted when Saver (2x3) replaced Signature (2x2), and it persisted when the 717's were changed from all-2x2 to mixed class where 2x3 requried an upcharge.

Well this is not exactly what I would call proof. To be sure there are other factors involved such as 1) the extreme loyalty of the MKE customer base, 2) Good tie-in to MKE business customers, 3) Good non-stop availabliy from MKE, 4) Convenience of MKE airport; and to its business base.

Personally, not being from MKE, the only reason I ever chose Midwest was primarilly because of the premium seating. Not being resident to MKE, I would never pay a premium to fly on the MIdwest today. Why on earth would anyone not from MKE or whose terminus was MKE do so?

If you'd flown on DL/NW, you might have gotten a free upgrade to first ;)

Usually do! Last minute trip. FC sold out on the MSP>LAS leg. Then it's non-stop for me.

But Republic has run a "pay for depart" airline and puts little time into customer service. The accident rate at regionals is FACT, Bedfords one dimensional focus on CASM is a FACT, the employee busting approach to Midwest is a FACT, and from what I hear the loss of customer service attitude at Midwest is a FACT.

You might hear it is a fact, but I actually fly the airline often. Don't see it. Same service as always.

Usually do! Last minute trip. FC sold out on the MSP>LAS leg. Then it's non-stop for me.

Lol - I saw that you were Delta PM. I said this partially tongue-in-cheek to highlight that Midwest does not give its Executives free upgrades. I wonder if this will ever happen?

I flew this past weekend on Delta (NW Metal) and got the upgrade - really excellent service from the crew in first. How can Midwest be competitive and not give its elites upgrade to signature?

Well this is not exactly what I would call proof.

How is that not proof that the premium seating is not responsible for the fare premium? Step it through logically...

(first event) A fare premium exists, and so does the premium seating.

(second event) The premium seating is removed from the market

(third event) A fare premium still exists in the market...in the Saver markets it's been over 6 years since those were all 2x2 markets.


As I have stated many times before, the fare premium Midwest enjoys is not about people willfully bypassing a cheaper option to pay more for a better Midwest onboard product. That has never worked for any airline trying it, and it's witnessed in the fast failure of every airline attempting it.

The list you mentioned of other reasons for the fare premium are a good start....things like frequent nonstops timed for business travelers, corporate contracts, nonstop flights to more cities than other airlines, frequent flyer tie-ins, and similar.

And, as I have also pointed out before, even if on every single day the fares of airline A and airline B are exactly the same, one airline's actual fare paid can be significantly higher than other other based on purchase decision.

A reference about RASM...

More important for us, however, is the RASM which is a competitive advantage. According to the Department of Transportation second quarter 2009 survey data, on competitive overlapping markets, Midwest maintains a 156% RASM premium which is not surprising to anyone, except, maybe the AirTran guys. Milwaukee is not a destination market that you can stimulate by price.


and by popular request.

Major airlines aren't immune to serious lapses, as shown in October when a Northwest Airlines plane overshot its Minneapolis destination by 100-plus miles and went radio-silent for 78 minutes. No one was hurt. Yet since 2003 commuter airlines have had a serious-accident rate per 100,000 departures 10 times that of major airlines, according to government and industry data, not to mention scores of unpublicized close calls.




p.s. Knope2001, you forgot to add the pilot costs for the 147 seat MD80. The FACT is the 147 seat MD80 CASM was less than a 99 seat B717.

Lol - I saw that you were Delta PM. I said this partially tongue-in-cheek to highlight that Midwest does not give its Executives free upgrades. I wonder if this will ever happen?

I flew this past weekend on Delta (NW Metal) and got the upgrade - really excellent service from the crew in first. How can Midwest be competitive and not give its elites upgrade to signature?

I am unabashadly a NW flyer and now a DL customer. I only fly YX when convenant to do so. I also find that the on time performance on the old "Saver" routes to be a lot better now than when the MD-80's were flying. I complained incessently back then about delay, after delay, after delay caused by issues with those planes. I much prefer the E-jets for comfort and reliability.

And every pilot I had on the E-jets has been at least 50 years old. I don't get the inexperience thing.

A reference about RASM...

More important for us, however, is the RASM which is a competitive advantage. According to the Department of Transportation second quarter 2009 survey data, on competitive overlapping markets, Midwest maintains a 156% RASM premium which is not surprising to anyone, except, maybe the AirTran guys. Milwaukee is not a destination market that you can stimulate by price.



His statement is incorrect. The data I pulled was from DoT second quarter 2009 survey data, just as stated in the quote. Anyone who cares to can look it up themselves. Check out table 5 from the 2nd quarter for the stats I posted.

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/X-50%20Role_files/consumerairfarereport.htm


p.s. Knope2001, you forgot to add the pilot costs for the 147 seat MD80. The FACT is the 147 seat MD80 CASM was less than a 99 seat B717.

The wage scale for the M80 isn't out on my source anymore, but almost certainly pilot cost per seat of the 147-seat M80 (actually 143 and 139 seats when they put Signature seats in) was less on the M80 than on the Midwest 717. The M80 burned way too much fuel and was getting too expensive to maintain as they aged. If Midwest had a latest-generation 140 seat plane to replace the M80, the pilot wages Midwest paid would have made them much more competitive. They still would have the issue of comparably high-seniority crews at the top of the scale, however.

As I have stated many times before, the fare premium Midwest enjoys is not about people willfully bypassing a cheaper option to pay more for a better Midwest onboard product. That has never worked for any airline trying it, and it's witnessed in the fast failure of every airline attempting it.

How about:

1) Midwest charges a premium for premium seating

2) Midwest eliminates premium seating but is still the least ugly contestant at the ugly contest

3) Being least ugly allows Midwest to still charge a premium.

Thanks but no thanks, I'll stick with a legacy I'm affiliated with and maybe snag a free upgrade to first; AND not pay a premium. OR I'll go with an LCC and save some bucks.

How about:

1) Midwest charges a premium for premium seating

2) Midwest eliminates premium seating but is still the least ugly contestant at the ugly contest

3) Being least ugly allows Midwest to still charge a premium.


Wow...that line of thinking speaks volumes. 'Nuff said.

The list you mentioned of other reasons for the fare premium are a good start....things like frequent nonstops timed for business travelers, corporate contracts, nonstop flights to more cities than other airlines, frequent flyer tie-ins, and similar.

Knope, please explain then why NW failed twice in successfully operating a MKE hub. They offered everything you mention above.

Knope, please explain then why NW failed twice in successfully operating a MKE hub. They offered everything you mention above.

From what I know it did not fail miserably. NW did decide they could make more money putting the planes elsewhere. Strategic business decisions that change focus are not necessarily failures.

Do you have something to point to that shows this? Just curious.

From what I know it did not fail miserably. NW did decide they could make more money putting the planes elsewhere. Strategic business decisions that change focus are not necessarily failures.

Do you have something to point to that shows this? Just curious.

Did I say "miserably?"

Republic 1 and NW were well entrenched in MKE prior to YX. If NW offered services described by Knope, why did they downsize MKE, rebuild and downsize again? They should have crushed YX. Why didn't DL crush FL?

I understand NW decided they could make more money elsewhere, but NW's network was well established and offered more to the consumer other than YX inflight service. Why did YX prevail in MKE during its early years despite fewer non-stops if NW offered what Knope described as the traits of more successful airlines?

I think there's two factors in buying tickets: price and service. Some people want cheap, some want service. While I understand service also means flight times, FF programs, I am referring to inflight.

Also, while Knope's example of fare comparisons is good, I think it's too simplistic. For example, I find that CO is consistently less expensive than DL both long and short term pricing, on the city pairs I fly. Sorry, I don't have time to do relevent research.

Wow...that line of thinking speaks volumes. 'Nuff said.

And Midwest has lost market share - 'Nuff said.

Knope, please explain then why NW failed twice in successfully operating a MKE hub. They offered everything you mention above.

No, neither of Northwest’s attempts in Milwaukee came close to matching what Midwest offered in nonstop destinations nor in frequent flights. The first attempt in the late 80’s came closest, and they filled planes fairly well in key markets. However Northwest hemorrhaged money in the early 90’s, and they retrenched back to their hubs of DTW/MSP/MEM, cutting their focus cities in Milwaukee and in Washington.

The second attempt in Milwaukee fell far short of matching Midwest’s frequency and nonstop destination advantage. When it first started out, NW had a single daily nonstop to DCA, BOS, and LGA versus 4-5 Midwest flights. Later they swapped in all CRJ’s on the business routes, but usually still just had half the frequency of Midwest, plus far fewer destinations.

Northwest had and has (DL now, of course) a huge base of flyers in the Milwaukee area. That was part of the reason they believed they could succeed here against Midwest. The problem was that these same frequent travelers who used Northwest for travel to secondary places like Richmond, Sioux Falls, and Little Rock were just as deep or deeper in the Midwest frequent flyer program, which met their travel needs with nonstop flights to most of the largest destinations.

Republic 1 and NW were well entrenched in MKE prior to YX. If NW offered services described by Knope, why did they downsize MKE, rebuild and downsize again? They should have crushed YX.

Both RC and NW had turned Milwaukee into nothing but a "spoke" to their hubs years before. In 1981, between the two of them, they peaked at more than 90 flights to 35 nonstop destinations.

By 1984 they were down to just the three hubs of DTW, MSP, and MEM, plus a single flight to DCA and a few to LGA.

By the time Northwest ramped up their operation in mid-1988, they had really lost any grip they once had on Milwaukee...still the largest carrier but seeing serious inroads from new airlines like American, USAir, TWA, Continental, and Midwest.

Northwest definitely put real pressure on Midwest with that hub. However there was not as much overlap. Northwest never flew to Atlanta nor Dallas...Midwest's strongest destinations at the time due in part to Kimberly Clark traffic...nor did NW fly to Denver or Kansas City. The other key thing which made NW pull back, as I mentioned in the other posting, was the recession of the early 90's brought Northwest and a number of other carriers to the brink of financial disaster. The decision to close Milwaukee came out of this crisis, along with their mini-hub at DCA.

Northwest did not come at Midwest in 1988 from a position of the entrenched dominant carrier.

Why didn't DL crush FL?

That is definitely its own can of worms worthy of a different topic and discussion by others who know the situation better. However back when they were Valujet and were making a foothold in Atlanta, I definitely remember more than one industry observer surprised that Delta did not aggressively battle them, putting up almost no challenge compared to things AA, NW, CO and others did.

I think there's two factors in buying tickets: price and service. Some people want cheap, some want service.

History doesn't support that people buy tickets on onboard service, however. At least not in the domestic US market. Nobody has ever found even close to enough passengers will to pay more for a better coach product to offset the price.

--Every other single premium service airline failed

--Every attempt to give customers a better seat for free in hopes of getting a better yield also failed

--Most onboard amenities have gone the way of the dinosaur on all domestic US flights...except for ones which the customer pays for.

Airline after airline has gone down since deregulation banking on the notion that people will pay more for a premium experience on domesitc coach. This tells us that a significant revenue premium does not correlate with the onboard product.

Midwest has maintained a significant revenue premium even as the premium service has been removed from some markets (like Saver, and mainline-toRJ conversion) and reduced in others. This tells us that a significant revenue premium does not correlate with the onboard product.

Both these things tell us, from slightly different perspectives, that a premium onboard product does not correlate with significantly better revenue.

Nobody...just about nobody...is willing to pay more for a premium coach experience. And that's why reductions in the onboard experience at Midwest over the years have not runied the revenue premium.

Also, while Knope's example of fare comparisons is good, I think it's too simplistic. For example, I find that CO is consistently less expensive than DL both long and short term pricing, on the city pairs I fly. Sorry, I don't have time to do relevent research.

It was just an illustration to show how even when fares are exactly the same, one airline can have a significantly higher average fare based on buying patterns. Not sure what you're getting at with the CO versus DL fare comparison...obviously two airlines do not always have the same fares. However there's a widely-held absolutely incorrect belief that Midwest's fare premium comes from large numbers of people choosing to pay significantly more for a Midwest flight than what they would pay for comparable nonstop service on a competitor. It just isn't true.

And Midwest has lost market share - 'Nuff said.

And they are gaining market share back. Would you like to continue with other assorted facts not related to the remarkable line of thinking I was addressing?

This forum is strictly a medium for Republic/Midwest management/bloggers to get their message out. All you need to do is point out a defiency of Republic and watch the spin. If you say anything negative you are identified as a bitter ex-employee. Some of my personal favorites.

Republic pilots and other employees are significantly less expierenced then those thery replaced at Midwest.
-I once saw a old pilot and some of the pilots were layed off from other airlines that fly for Republic.

Commuter pilots have had a significantly higher fatality rate than mainline pilots.
-The highest fatality crash ever was by mainline pilots. Midwest had a crash at it's beginning.

I could do better if I was a full time blogger or lived in my parents basement. Midwest was once a source of pride for Milwaukee, now it is an embarassment.

This forum is strictly a medium for Republic/Midwest management/bloggers to get their message out. All you need to do is point out a defiency of Republic and watch the spin. If you say anything negative you are identified as a bitter ex-employee. Some of my personal favorites.

Republic pilots and other employees are significantly less expierenced then those thery replaced at Midwest.
-I once saw a old pilot and some of the pilots were layed off from other airlines that fly for Republic.

Commuter pilots have had a significantly higher fatality rate than mainline pilots.
-The highest fatality crash ever was by mainline pilots. Midwest had a crash at it's beginning.

I could do better if I was a full time blogger or lived in my parents basement. Midwest was once a source of pride for Milwaukee, now it is an embarassment.

Interesting that you never posted until after you lost your job. Where were you when things were going well?

Interesting that you never posted until after you lost your job. Where were you when things were going well?

I'm sure there are exceptions, but when the MKE ramp positions were changed to Skyway and lower pay rates, I don't recall outrage coming from pilots or inflight on how it was punishing the people who made this brand great and ruining the product. (Midwest's bag mishandle rates, by the way, month after month rate among top five of all airlines...certainly not because of this, but perhaps in spite of it.)

I'm sure there are exceptions, but when the MKE ramp positions were changed to Skyway and lower pay rates, I don't recall outrage coming from pilots or inflight on how it was punishing the people who made this brand great and ruining the product. (Midwest's bag mishandle rates, by the way, month after month rate among top five of all airlines...certainly not because of this, but perhaps in spite of it.)

Well, the saying was "Best Care in the Air"...Which, I assume, will be the excuse for this.

It is unfortunate that the Midwest F/A and Pilot union leadership forced a furlough (did I read somewhere that some of the F/A's are back to work?) and are haggling over the contract, but truly many more people contributed to "Best Care in the Air" than just the F/As and Pilots...as I talked about in a previous post today, the ground crews at the various stations around the country are a big contributor to why people fly Midwest.

Midwest was once a source of pride for Milwaukee, now it is an embarassment.

Is this simply your opinion or the union talking points?

You're obviously very bitter but your anger is mis-placed. It's one thing to take out your frustrations on the perceived failures of Hoeksema and Company or TPG. It's another matter entirely when you post deliberately false and/or mis-leading information about Republic or take snide swipes against other contributors just because they happen to disagree with you.

And they are gaining market share back. Would you like to continue with other assorted facts not related to the remarkable line of thinking I was addressing?


Knope your logic and facts are twisted to suit your premise that premium seating does not matter.

The fact is that many customers have walked from Midwest, they won't be back to pay Midwest's high fares, for care that is far from best, but rather pedestrian. As Midwest has shrunk the diehards are left to pay that RASM premium

A paltry two percent gain in market share in September is not significant, nor indicative of a trend. Just as your worship Brian Bedford said at the 3Q earnings , MIdwest's share of MKE flights has fallen from 60%to 33%. While BB would like to recapture this market it is doubtful particularly with premium prices for a non-premiuim product.

Well, the saying was "Best Care in the Air"...Which, I assume, will be the excuse for this.

It is unfortunate that the Midwest F/A and Pilot union leadership forced a furlough (did I read somewhere that some of the F/A's are back to work?) and are haggling over the contract, but truly many more people contributed to "Best Care in the Air" than just the F/As and Pilots...as I talked about in a previous post today, the ground crews at the various stations around the country are a big contributor to why people fly Midwest.

Some furloughed F/A's saw the writing on the wall in the early stages of the "aquisition" and joined RAH early. They don't just work for Republic some went to Shuttle America and Chautauqua too.

Knope your logic and facts are twisted to suit your premise that premium seating does not matter.

You simply don't like the conclusion. I've drawn ample evidence to support the hypothsis that premium seating is not correlated to higher average fare.

Can you refute that a significant fare premium remained in the Saver markets in the years since they changed from 2x2 to 2x3? Nope.

And since you can't refute it, then offer some plausible reason why it has remained. Please. Without another explaination, the only logical conclusion is that the premium service is not linked in a significant way to the fare premium.

Your use of market share to suggest otherwise willfully ignores the fact that market share in Milwaukee is overwhelmingly affected by Midwest's removal of the M80's last year for reasons other than declining demand. The market share stats are also affected by the decision of a major competitor to set up a connecting hub in Milwaukee and funnel large numbers of non-Milwaukee passengers through MKE.

Your premise is that it's the loss of premium serivce which has lead Midwest to lose market share in Milwaukee. I say that it is instead primarily the sharp reduction in capacity not related to reduced demand.

If people are running away from Midwest because of high fares and lousy service, as you claim, then why did they carry 20% more passengers in Milwaukee in October 2009 versus October 2008?

With the affect of the A319's starting to show in October, the comparisons will reflect even more favorably.

Just as your worship Brian Bedford said

Well congratulations for being the first person to openly accuse me of licking Brian Bedford's boots. Hardly. Very nice of you to personalize this, though.


Note that I'm not saying Midwest's market share isn't down, I'm saying the reason isn't primarily the changes in service.

I'm not saying zero people have migrated their allegiance over to competitors. Of course not. And given the efforts of the competition coupled with last year's 40% capacity cut, it would be astonishing to think nobody had.

And I'm not saying that zero people ever paid a cent more to fly Midwest for their premium onboard product when a comparable flight (nonstop flight, similar time) on another carrier was cheaper. However this is and always was exceptionally rare, and is not resonsible for the revenue premium.

It's the people at Midwest that focused on making the customer happy that made Midwest the "best care in the air".

TH wanted to build a airline that focused on the customer and he did it. BB focus is on CASM and he gutted the culture at Midwest. Big mistake. BB could have maintained the key employees to maintain the Midwest culture but he thought it was all about the "cookie".

BB sums up his thoughts about MKE customers...

The market share surrendered – mostly to AirTran – has seen a positive tick back as we’ve started to rebuild,” said Bedford, “and we see a share shift back largely splitting by seats in the market. More important for us, however, is the RASM which is a competitive advantage. According to the Department of Transportation second quarter 2009 survey data, on competitive overlapping markets, Midwest maintains a 156% RASM premium which is not surprising to anyone, except, maybe the AirTran guys. Milwaukee is not a destination market that you can stimulate by price. [/U][U]I don’t care how cheap you make it; you don’t go there unless you have to, so there is no reason price stimulation will be a competitive advantage. But what we do have is a 1.1 million – which, by the way, is the same as the population there – frequent fliers who are willing to pay us a premium to get on Midwest because they love that cookie.”

Where are Republic CSR, Pilots, and Flight Attendants getting retrained to the customer service standards that earned Midwest loyality and multiple awards?






answer: They aren't!