Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - KLM cancelled award flight

Husband and I are booked on award flight to fly LHR - SXM on Air France and return on KLM SXM- LHR. Got an email recently that basically said return flight was cancelled and they were moving us to the following day (even though there is an Air France flight the desired day). Said no award availability on Air France on original day (plenty of revenue seats available) . KLM flies only Tuesday, Friday, Sunday and we were booked on a Thursday.

Husband has business commitments that do not allow him to return one day later than planned. Not to mention additional incurred costs in Caribbean during high season.

Is there any precedent here for getting on the Air France flight? Is it reasonanble to request the Jet Blue people to book us on another airline (AA, for instance) in order to get us back on day we booked?

I had another huge problem with this booking with the Jet Blue people, so I'm not fond of Air France/KLM at the moment and probably would avoid flying with them again if at all possible.

I would call Flying Blue (not Jet Blue! :D ) and explain the situation.

I'd imagine they will book you on the "unavailable" Air France flight if you start demanding to be returned on your originally-booked date.

When is the flight?

Oh, don't call FB but call KLM directly. Preferably in the Netherlands.

When is the flight?

Oh, don't call FB but call KLM directly. Preferably in the Netherlands.


I'll try that. I have already called the Flying Blue people (not Jet Blue--sorry)

The flight is in Feb/March. Even at the time I booked, which was months ago, the FB desk wouldn't put me on AF on the return even though I am on AF on the outbound.

I am just a layman but assuming you have confirmed tickets you shall be offered the choice between:

1. Full refund

OR

2. Rerouting on the same day

OR

3. Date change free of charge + hotel accommodations if necessary


Airlines will usually present the traveller with only option 1 and 3 (leaving out accommodations). However, as per the EU-regulation the passenger can make the choice between any of these three, not the airline.

I would call them up with a couple of rerouting suggestions (search for good ones on matrix.itasoftware.com for example), if award seats are available or if it is a partner airline or not does not matter. If they don't accept these speak to a supervisor. If still refused then tell them your option is nr 2 (Article 8(1)(b) and have them send you their suggestion for comparable travel on the same day. If still refused do the same in writing.

The airline might say that the EU-rights don't apply because it is more than two weeks before departure, however the 2-week rules only applies for compensation not for rerouting/refund.

You can also ask for advise at www.flightmole.com/forum

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Unfortunately they provided information so much in advance that eu compensation is out of the question.

Gnopps suggestions are very good. Be prepared, be nice and don't demand. The Dutch are notoriously immune to American style complaints. (Not a sneer, but a fact!)

Americans don't get a lot of ... appreciation here. I'd suggest you try it Euro style and be assertive! (NOT the American way... I am entitled to, I have a right to... yadayada... this defaults in a no)

"2. Rerouting on the same day"I am not quite sure what leads you to the conclusion that pax have a right to demand same day rerouting. There is nothing in Reg 261/2004 that actually says so. Nor is there anything in Reg 261/2004 that explicitly says that pax can demand to be rerouted on an alternative airline. This may or may not be the case but until we have a judgment of the ECJ clarifying this, nobody knows for sure.

I am not quite sure what leads you to the conclusion that pax have a right to demand same day rerouting. There is nothing in Reg 261/2004 that actually says so. Nor is there anything in Reg 261/2004 that explicitly says that pax can demand to be rerouted on an alternative airline. This may or may not be the case but until we have a judgment of the ECJ clarifying this, nobody knows for sure.
Like I said, I am no lawyer. But that is how I have learnt to interpret the below (highlightning by me). I agree though, that without a judgement (or is there?) we can not know for sure how to interpret it.

Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall
be offered the choice between:
(a) — reimbursement within seven days, by the means
provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket
at the price at which it was bought, for the part or
parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts
already made if the flight is no longer serving any
purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel
plan, together with, when relevant,
— a return flight to the first point of departure, at the
earliest opportunity;
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience,
subject to availability of seats.
2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose
flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement
where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.
3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served
by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a
flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking
was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring
the passenger from that alternative airport either to that
for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination
agreed with the passenger.

Hi Gnopps, I believe that NickB is right. The return flight on KL is cancelled. They offer to reroute the pax at the earliest possibility, which is the next day. If KL had another flight the same day, the earliest opportunity would be that KL flight IF there were seats available.. AF is legally a different airline and I don't see any legal reason why they have to reroute you on AF same day.
Of course, according to 261/2004. you always have the option to request refund.
The third option you mention is at the convenience of the pax. So if he/she prefers to return three days later and there are seats available, the airline is obliged to do it at no cost to the pax. But there is no mention of accomodation costs and no reason for it as it is at the pax convenience.
I understand very well ctkaty's frustration, but they were advised some three months ahead of the cancellation or change of schedule, so easy to get refund and make other plans (at least that would be FB claim).
As other posters mention, while there are no legal avenues, pushing FB hard for a "commercial gesture" to free some award seats on the AF flight might work. But note that this is not a trivial action for FB/AF/KL and that it would greatly help if the pax hold status with FB.

Hi Gnopps, I believe that NickB is right. The return flight on KL is cancelled. They offer to reroute the pax at the earliest possibility, which is the next day. If KL had another flight the same day, the earliest opportunity would be that KL flight IF there were seats available.. AF is legally a different airline and I don't see any legal reason why they have to reroute you on AF same day.
Of course, according to 261/2004. you always have the option to request refund.
The third option you mention is at the convenience of the pax. So if he/she prefers to return three days later and there are seats available, the airline is obliged to do it at no cost to the pax. But there is no mention of accomodation costs and no reason for it as it is at the pax convenience.
I understand very well ctkaty's frustration, but they were advised some three months ahead of the cancellation or change of schedule, so easy to get refund and make other plans (at least that would be FB claim).
As other posters mention, while there are no legal avenues, pushing FB hard for a "commercial gesture" to free some award seats on the AF flight might work. But note that this is not a trivial action for FB/AF/KL and that it would greatly help if the pax hold status with FB.
Well, the regulation text is vague but in my experience this is to be interpreted as the passenger should be given the option of date change, refund or same-day rerouting regardless of airline. You can take a look at this thread where a similair case was brought to court:

http://www.flightmole.com/forum/showthread.php?t=614

Well, the regulation text is vague but in my experience this is to be interpreted as the passenger should be given the option of date change, refund or same-day rerouting regardless of airline. You can take a look at this thread where a similair case was brought to court:

http://www.flightmole.com/forum/showthread.php?t=614

Interesting. And the outcome of the case is? Maybe you could also share the cases of your own experience. It would be useful toall.

Well, the regulation text is vague but in my experience this is to be interpreted as the passenger should be given the option of date change, refund or same-day rerouting regardless of airline. You can take a look at this thread where a similair case was brought to court:

http://www.flightmole.com/forum/showthread.php?t=614While I would personally tend to indeed support an interpretation of the Reg which is rather more pax-friendly than that supported by most airlines, especially in the light of the recent ECJ ruling in the Sturgeon (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62007J0402:EN:HTML) case, it seems to me that being a little more cautious in expressing what rights pax have rather than affirming peremptorily that pax has an absolute right to be rerouted in any carrier on the same date would be advisable.

As to the case you mention, whatever the outcome of the case, frankly the reliability and precedent value of a small claims court in Massachussets in interpreting EC Reg 261/2004 is on a par with that of a small claims court in Poznan interpreting South Korean consumer protection legislation, viz. zero.

While I would personally tend to indeed support an interpretation of the Reg which is rather more pax-friendly than that supported by most airlines, especially in the light of the recent ECJ ruling in the Sturgeon (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62007J0402:EN:HTML) case, it seems to me that being a little more cautious in expressing what rights pax have rather than affirming peremptorily that pax has an absolute right to be rerouted in any carrier on the same date would be advisable.

As to the case you mention, whatever the outcome of the case, frankly the reliability and precedent value of a small claims court in Massachussets in interpreting EC Reg 261/2004 is on a par with that of a small claims court in Poznan interpreting South Korean consumer protection legislation, viz. zero.

I agree I also doubt whether any ruling by a Boston Magistrate/small claims judge could provide any form of precedent in law to that same Magistate herself never mind anyone else.

However her ruling/decision would bind the parties to that dispute-subject to any available appeal. The parties to the dispute would be able to rely upon that decision.

There may be two broad issues.

a)Should the carrier offer re-routing on another carrier ( or indeed by any other form of transport)?

b)The "reasonableness"/timeliness of that offered re-routing-as viewed through the wording of the Regulation.


Reference a) above,-what if the carrier no longer offers a service on that routing-what if it stops or "suspends" its own services on that routing?

How can the operating carrier offer the passenger a re-routing other than on another carrier?

See http://www.flightmole.com/forum/showthread.php?t=599&page=2

(Perhaps airlines might be wary/wish to avoid, where possible, references to the ECJ-especially after Sturgeon-to seek "clarifications"-and might prefer to live without "clarity")?

I can understand the criticism towards KL and FB.

One might have expected the airline to better look after the passenger, but then again as we all know, this is AFKL we are dealing with here.

The point is, however, that there might be competition issues at play: how much of the SXM TATL market do AFKL control? And how much is that if you also count DLNW.

Whereas it is true, for sure, that AFKL and DLNW pratically got away with murder when their mergers were cleared by the EC, I think KL better be careful not to just re-issue a tkt with AF, especially in the SXM-EU market. This is a passenger and not mere cargo we are talking about here.

There are other air services providers / new entrants in this market, and they should have the opportunity too to provide this KL frequent flyer with alternative transportation (at the financial expense of KL of course).

Otherwise KL might be seen to violate the EC competition law (artt. 81, 82, etc.).

Maybe someone else can shed a light on this??

.

I have been steeling myself to call these people again--it is no fun! Their customer service is terrible.

I'm going to try to keep my outbound on AF on business and cancel the return. I will use AA on return with decent connections and availability on our return date, even though it will probably be in economy. This is late to be booking the Caribbean in high season, even in this economy, and bus. and 1st are booked out for award tickets.

There isn't much choice on the SXM - LHR route if you want good connections. AF is the best bet.

However, the Jet Blue people are horrid to deal with. I transferred Amex points into their program and now I will have to use them somehow. At least living here in London I will have more of a chance to use them up before we return to the US in 18 months or so.

Update: I called them tonight and tried to get them to put us on the AF flight on March 4 (date of the cancelled KLM flight). They held that it wasn't available (even though it showed available to book on line). Claimed that the on line info is not up to date. I explained that we had no accommodations for the night of March 4 and need to be in London for meetings on March 5. Would not budge. So, I asked them to cancel the return and I would book on AA. I was told by Victoria that the return would be cancelled. I asked for a cancellation number but was told there was none. I stated my concern that the outbound would somehow get messed up, but was reassured that it would not.

Well, later I got a phone call from them and the problem is they have to cancel the whole flight and rebook as a one way. Of course, the business class is not available. Booking with Flying Blue has just turned into the biggest mess I have ever seen.

Well, later I got a phone call from them and the problem is they have to cancel the whole flight and rebook as a one way. Of course, the business class is not available. Booking with Flying Blue has just turned into the biggest mess I have ever seen.

Ask for a supervisor - AF revenue management can and should be able to open up award space for you on the AF flight.

I would not cancel the award ticket under any circumstances as you will lose all rights at that point. Ask to have it reinstated if it was already canceled (as you didn't ask for the first leg to be canceled). If you decide to go with a one-way only - ask for a supervisor to make this happen.

Ask for a supervisor - AF revenue management can and should be able to open up award space for you on the AF flight.

I would not cancel the award ticket under any circumstances as you will lose all rights at that point. Ask to have it reinstated if it was already canceled (as you didn't ask for the first leg to be canceled). If you decide to go with a one-way only - ask for a supervisor to make this happen.


Eric, I have asked for a supervisor on more than one occasion. It seems as if it is the policy of Flying Blue to not let customers speak with supervisors! I was even told that the line would automatically be cut off if they transferred me to a supervisor. I have been given the wrong information about important facets of this trip on two occasions by Flying Blue employees. One was last night when I was told everything was set for the outbound and the return would be cancelled. I was even given my seat numbers in Business Class on the outbound.

I have asked on two occasions to be put on the AF flight on our original return date and told that there is no space on the Air France flight on our original return date.

At this point, they are considering and getting back to us. In the meantime, I have already confirmed our return using an award on AA which would cost me $$ to cancel.

We have been involved with many frequent flyer programs over the years, and never have we had such a frustrating experience.

Once again: never. ever, ever call FB. Call KLM.

Once again: never. ever, ever call FB. Call KLM.


KLM informed me they cannot touch a Flying Blue reservation. However, a very kind person put me on hold and contacted a 'mentor.' Perhaps that is their word for supervisor. She had the mentor put a comment on my file (I'm sure there are many comments in my file, and some probably not so complimentary). I was informed that it was possible to cancel a portion of a reservation and get the miles and taxes credited back.

Unfortunately, I was directed to call the Flying Blue desk in that serves the UK (Netherlands wouldn't take me) which I did. The agent I spoke to took care of the cancellation of the return, leaving my outbound intact. Only thing is now my seat assignment doesn't show so I'll have to call again about that.

My advise: never call the Flying Blue desk located in Canada which serves the US if you can avoid it at all. From that office, I received so much misinformation that has caused a lot of stress and incurred quite a bit of cost on overseas phone calls.

My first snafu with that desk, which I did not even bring to the attention of this board, has to do with information given regarding our return flight. I had phoned in August (Original reservation made in May) to see about securing business class on return. Was told there was plenty of space, could not hold the seats, though. No worries, I was assured. Just transfer your Amex points into the Flying Blue account and as soon as they post give a call and it will be taken care of. Once they posted, I called back only to be told that it would be impossible to get business class because we only have Ivory status with them. That started a whole round of correspondence on that issue--only to have the flight cancelled anyway. Now I have 140K miles sitting in Flying Blue that will expire July 2010 so I'll have to think of some way to use them flying out of London.

That's my said story with Flying Blue. Hope it doesn't happen to you.

My advise: never call the Flying Blue desk located in Canada which serves the US if you can avoid it at all. From that office, I received so much misinformation that has caused a lot of stress and incurred quite a bit of cost on overseas phone calls.Who do you recommend I call instead?

The reason I ask is I have a problem similar to the OP. That is, I booked a reward ticket with AF a few months ago (the travel dates are in early January; BOS to PVR return) and they have -- or Northwest has -- so far modified the flights 11 times.

The latest modification has us getting back a day later than our original booking; we now have to overnight in Detroit where previously we didn't need to go at all. I've tried calling FB numerous times to try and get some kind of resolution to this (hotel vouchers, change of flights, etc.) but it never gets anywhere. I am a very diplomatic person by nature but they simply don't give a crap.

I did the whole send-a-fax thing to the number they gave where you can supposedly escalate your complaints to (I think the area code is somewhere in Ontario); about two weeks later they called me and said they got my fax but, of course, "there's nothing we can do."

What bothers me most is that I can buy a ticket from PVR to BOS via MSP (economy, Delta) yet FB are making me go through Detroit instead (with an 8-hour stay that puts me over night) even though I can buy a ticket on Expedia for about $200.

:mad:

I have been a FB customer since 2003, and this just flat-out sucks. I have long championed AF as a carrier but they simply don't seem to care about their customers...

Who do you recommend I call instead?

The reason I ask is I have a problem similar to the OP. That is, I booked a reward ticket with AF a few months ago (the travel dates are in early January; BOS to PVR return) and they have -- or Northwest has -- so far modified the flights 11 times.

(...)

I have been a FB customer since 2003, and this just flat-out sucks. I have long championed AF as a carrier but they simply don't seem to care about their customers...

I am afraid that, as AF does not operate flights between Boston and Mexico, there is nothing they can do about this. Award availability is governed by the operating carrier.

there must be better options than an overnight in detroit - maybe on delta (via atl or jfk)? I understand why it will be difficult to find award space in January but as your travel agent (which is in fact what they are) they should be able to call skymiles to find a better resolution for you. Look for all possible routings and ask them to check each and every one of these.