Midwest Airlines Midwest Miles (Pre-Alignment) - More AirTran competition coming to MKE

MKE-DFW starts 2x/day in April.

Skywest 50-seat CRJ will replace 717s and 737s to IND, PIT, and STL, plus add new service to Des Moines, Akron, and Omaha. Each will have 3x/day.

Also, DCA will get a 3rd flight starting in April.

The return of the CRJ is an interesting development to the FL* system and the competitive landscape in Milwaukee.

Interesting for MKE but nonetheless idiotic for AirTran financially. I'd sure like to know how they plan on making money with regional jets given their cost and fare structure. Given how much AirTran has discounted fares in markets like STL and IND already I really don't know how they intend to make this work.

It was a financial train wreck with AirWisconsin and the same will be true here. Although it will be interesting to see the AirTran fans state how the CRJ additions are good but Midwest having them is bad.

AirTran and Skywest are going to share revenue?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/69090752.html

Doesn't sound like there is much risk for AirTran.

Not surprised at the addition of Dallas flights. You would think Southwest would have considered adding direct service to Dallas.

AirTran and Skywest are going to share revenue?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/69090752.html

It appears as if Skywest is assuming most, if not all, the risks with these flights. If that's the case, then these will be a financial disaster for Skywest.

Do they seriously think they'll even make a penny flying these routes at AirTran's fare structure?

This just proves there is a RJ glut.

FL press release:

http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle_print&ID=1350983&highlight=

AirTran and Skywest are going to share revenue?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/69090752.html

I think I have this straight in my head now. FL's cut will the booking fee plus any connections made at MKE. Skywest will get the rest, minus any connecting cost in MKE. So most of the risk is on Skywest for these routes and all the planes will be branded Skywest.

It appears as if Skywest is assuming most, if not all, the risks with these flights. If that's the case, then these will be a financial disaster for Skywest.

Do they seriously think they'll even make a penny flying these routes at AirTran's fare structure?

This just proves there is a RJ glut.

And Joe Leonard called Midwest "schizophrenic" for flying MD80's. ;)

MKE-IND obviously has not been producing strong loads for FL...not enough to justify 717 or 737 on the route; they must be losing on it.

MKE-IND obviously has not been producing strong loads for FL...not enough to justify 717 or 737 on the route; they must be losing on it.

Based on some of the passenger loads reported I'm not sure routes like IND, PIT, or STL would even justify a CRJ.

I wonder if these additions would make Republic bring the Q400s to MKE. The plane is much cheaper to operate but would only add unneeded capacity and perhaps drive yields down even more. It's somewhat interesting that MKE added Q400 parking lines as several gates. It could mean nothing, but then again...

Itheir cost and fare structure. Given how much AirTran has discounted fares in markets like STL and IND already I really don't know how they intend to make this work.


Ah, Air Tran is learning well from the likes of Delta/Midwest/Republic, grasshopper.

A wise man said, do not seek meaning, where there is none. He says, if you look at the surface, you miss what is underneath. :D

Also, consider the parable of the lame Southern airline: There once was an unprofitable airline company from the South that said. " Holy Cr*P, I have to compete against an LCC on routes with weak margins, what do I do"?

The lame Southern airline said " hmmmm maybe I'll put some CRJs on this route. At best I'll make a thin profit, at worst I'll bleed the other guys yields."

Thus the regional jet as a competitive strategy was born. @:-)

To come: Zombie banks, Zombie car companies, Zombie airlines

At best I'll make a thin profit, at worst I'll bleed the other guys yields."



The yields are going to be bleeding badly for every airline that serves MKE. It won't matter how low each airline's costs are.

I'm curious as to what, if any, response Republic will have. Perhaps they won't have to do much at all as these SkyWest flights will flop.

Not surprised at the addition of Dallas flights. You would think Southwest would have considered adding direct service to Dallas.

I thought the Wright Amendment prohibits this, given that WN would be doing this out of DAL.

I thought the Wright Amendment prohibits this, given that WN would be doing this out of DAL.

It's interesting that FL added mainline MKE service to Dallas, the city that serves as WN's "hometown."

Also interesting is that WN has added routes from MKE to a YX focus city (MCI) and an FL focus city (BWI).

Also interesting is that WN has added routes from MKE to a YX focus city (MCI) and an FL focus city (BWI).

MCI and BWI are both big Southwest cities.

Having MCI allows Southwest to offer good connections to places like Dallas. I suspect that is one reason why MCI was added instead of STL.

Not too shocking of news from AirTran, they needed drum up some attention some how in the Milwaukee market.
I was happy when Republic started the CHQ E135 service to a few cities, they are much more comfortable than the CRJ 200. AirTran can have those puppys all day long, my neck is still sore from all the times I've had to tilt it to take a peak out the window. (I had to show my displeasure of the CRJ 200).

MKE-IND obviously has not been producing strong loads for FL...not enough to justify 717 or 737 on the route; they must be losing on it.

I've been to IND twice in the past month on Midwest, all four of my flights (different times of the day) have been completely booked and one was over booked. It says nothing about yields but they have been able to maximize their bookings with the 135.


I'm curious as to what, if any, response Republic will have. Perhaps they won't have to do much at all as these SkyWest flights will flop.

My guess is that they will announce the additions of jobs in Milwaukee by moving maintenance to the Midwest hanger. Bedford said he wanted to make a decision, in regards to maintenance, before the end of October, maybe he knew he should keep it tucked away a little longer.

It will be interesting to see how Skywest does, afterall they have at least $4 million of Republics money to burn through, which won't take too long given the price of fuel is increasing.

I'm curious as to what, if any, response Republic will have. Perhaps they won't have to do much at all as these SkyWest flights will flop.

After seeing Republic's 3Q earnings, I would guess that Republic won't have a response. RJET has other issues like profitablity to worry about.

After seeing Republic's 3Q earnings, I would guess that Republic won't have a response. RJET has other issues like profitablity to worry about.

As compared to FL, who has only posted profits every quarter this year?

FL has made some move moves in Milwaukee that have caused me to question their strategy. I did not like the fact that they added service to IND, STL and MSP. How long will airtran last in MKE?

FL has made some move moves in Milwaukee that have caused me to question their strategy. I did not like the fact that they added service to IND, STL and MSP. How long will airtran last in MKE?

I have to agree with you. Its not good to make decisions based on emotions, which, to me, this is what AirTran is doing. They are going away from a business model that works for them. Even with a limited risk associated with the Skywest agreement they have tried regional service before and decided that it was more profitable for the flying to be done on their own metal.

How long did the Air Wisconsin agreement last? That may tell us how long they will try this out.

I have to agree with you. Its not good to make decisions based on emotions, which, to me, this is what AirTran is doing. They are going away from a business model that works for them. Even with a limited risk associated with the Skywest agreement they have tried regional service before and decided that it was more profitable for the flying to be done on their own metal.

How long did the Air Wisconsin agreement last? That may tell us how long they will try this out.

Blue or Knope would be better equipped to answer this question but I think that FL has been most successful in their leisure markets. Maybe that is where they should focus. They should not try to be another midwest. I am not sure that the MKE market is big enough for that. What I liked about Southwest is that they stick to what they are good at. Their additions in MKE complement their route structure.

As compared to FL, who has only posted profits every quarter this year?

That is true. In my previous posts I was a little harsh on FL. As a former resident of Milwaukee I think that their focus on my hometown is fantastic and I do wish them luck. It is not easy to be profitable in the airline industry but they seem to do a good job of it. I also with Midwest the best of luck.

I'll post more detailed information in the AirTran forum, hopefully tomororw, but a few comments on how things are shaping up so far.

MKE-IND is 3x/day, but the first MKE departure is noon. Not exactly designed for Milwakuee-based travelers.

MKE-PIT is 3x/day, and the schedule is better for Milwaukee-origination traffic. Connections at MKE, however are generally not very good, with no flight dovetailing with the big east-west bank.

MKE-STL is fairly similar to the schedule Midwest is planning to operate.

DSM and OMA are both relative good schedules for MKE-based traffic and for connections.

MKE-CAK is set up best for Milwaukee-originating business traffic and has largely dismal connecting opportunities in Milwaukee. My only guess is that they are gunning to draw traffic away from MKE-CLE, a market Continental dominates.

Finally, regarding AirTran versus Republic in Q3, Republic had a better operating margin but AirTran had the better net margin. At Republic, branded operations, which include Mokulele Airways (which they are bailing out of) and August/September results for Midwest, lost $15.9m in the quarter. Perhaps on tomorrow's conference call they'll havemore detailed information.


3rd quarter margins

Operating profit

6.2% AirTran
10.2% Republic

Net profit

1.7% AirTran
0.9% Republic

I have to agree with you. Its not good to make decisions based on emotions, which, to me, this is what AirTran is doing. They are going away from a business model that works for them. Even with a limited risk associated with the Skywest agreement they have tried regional service before and decided that it was more profitable for the flying to be done on their own metal.

How long did the Air Wisconsin agreement last? That may tell us how long they will try this out.

Every business has to take a risk to try to get ahead. It probably won't work out, but you never know unless you try. This is different than the regional service they did through Air Wisconsin. FL has almost no risk with this arrangement. SkyWest is taking the gamble here.

If these flights are enough to generate some decent feed for the rest of the FL routes out of Milwaukee, it's not a bad thing. At least for the short term, the flying public wins. Nothing wrong with that.

If they don't work out, no harm done from AirTran's perspective.

MKE-IND is 3x/day, but the first MKE departure is noon. Not exactly designed for Milwakuee-based travelers.


For MKE-IND I see the first departure at 730 in the morning for January and February before it changes to noon. I wonder if they will end up keeping the morning time as I don't think a noon flight should be the first of the day either. Overall I think the SkyWest schedule is decent but definitely not perfect.

... At Republic, branded operations, which include Mokulele Airways (which they are bailing out of) and August/September results for Midwest, lost $15.9m in the quarter. Perhaps on tomorrow's conference call they'll havemore detailed information.


Reading more this AM, Republic's 3Q earnings were a pretty significant earnings miss. 2008 3Q RJET earned $ .50 /share versus $.09 share for 3Q 2009. Many analysts were expecting earnings of $.29. for 3Q 2009.

It will be interesting to see how RJET spins this.

FL has made some move moves in Milwaukee that have caused me to question their strategy. I did not like the fact that they added service to IND, STL and MSP. How long will airtran last in MKE?

Tim-

The more I think about this, it's a brilliant strategy. From the Chinese 36 Strategems "Defeat the enemy with a borrowed knife"

Attack using the strength of another (in a situation where using one's own strength is not favourable).

Usage
The idea here is to cause damage to the enemy by getting a 3rd party to do the deed.

Tim-

The more I think about this, it's a brilliant strategy. From the Chinese 36 Strategems "Defeat the enemy with a borrowed knife"

Attack using the strength of another (in a situation where using one's own strength is not favourable).

Usage
The idea here is to cause damage to the enemy by getting a 3rd party to do the deed.

I agree. This could be a brilliant move. I wish them the best

Blue or Knope would be better equipped to answer this question but I think that FL has been most successful in their leisure markets.

AirTran has done a great job of filling seats in most of the leisure markets from MKE, especially during peak travel periods. However, the more traditional business routes have not done well at all.

It was obvious that STL, PIT, and IND in particular were very weak performers from the get go and would have been cut if this deal with SkyWest hadn't been announced.

During the Q3 earning call, AirTran executives stated that they would give MKE another year to see how things develop. I suspect that in addition to pulling the SkyWest flights AirTran will also trim MSP/BOS/LGA/DCA/DFW after next summer.

Also of interest, AirTran's pilots are not happy at all about this new outsourcing. Here's their press release:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AirTran-Pilots-Outsourcing-bw-2972123343.html?x=0&.v=1

As compared to FL, who has only posted profits every quarter this year?

As compared to making more profit if not for the dog MKE operation.

As compared to making more profit if not for the dog MKE operation.

If MKE was such a dog they wouldn't be trying to expand at all. FL said MKE was profitable this summer which isn't surprising but it definitely means MKE is not a dog.

If MKE was such a dog they wouldn't be trying to expand at all. FL said MKE was profitable this summer which isn't surprising but it definitely means MKE is not a dog.

The pie isn't growing that much. The new status quo is 3 dogs and some other assorted wieners fighting over the same pie. 30-40% over-capacity at MKE now.

Woof-woof ;)

Based on some of the passenger loads reported I'm not sure routes like IND, PIT, or STL would even justify a CRJ.

I wonder if these additions would make Republic bring the Q400s to MKE. The plane is much cheaper to operate but would only add unneeded capacity and perhaps drive yields down even more. It's somewhat interesting that MKE added Q400 parking lines as several gates. It could mean nothing, but then again...

In today's conference call they said 5 CRJs coming from Continental will be placed at YX. However, he also said it is RJET's plan to de-emphasize smaller jets in favor of Ejets and to stabilize in 2010 with growth in 2011.

Bad news for Republic in Milwaukee. If they are having a hard time of it riding the coat tails of Midwest's reputation with child labor, it isn't going to get better for them. No one is going to pay a premium to fly on a regional jet once the bait and switch is realized. Republic will go the way of other regionals pretending to be a mainline operator, out of business. I am just surprised how fast it is happening.

<<<Accidentally posted in the wrong thread>>>

During the Q3 earning call, AirTran executives stated that they would give MKE another year to see how things develop.


If things were going so well at MKE would they even make such a comment? To me that sounds like things aren't really going as well as they say but will give it one more year to see if things improve.

There are the profitability claims with MKE. That comment by the executives casts doubts on it. Could they be profitable only because of route incentives? What happens when those incentives expire? I believe most places only offer 1 or 2 year incentives. That means most will have expired and the real test of profitability will begin. That could possibly explain the comments by the executive. It is much easier to be profitable when you have landing fees waived or possibly reduced rent for the first year or two. What happens when you pay full price like everyone else?

This of course is speculation based on the recent announcement by SAN which outlined their incentive program which was designed to match programs offered by other airports.

There are a couple newly painted Skywest CRJ's still flying for YX. I believe these are the ones making their way over to FL. The new paint scheme is similar to the older Skywest House colors, blue tail and all white body. I will try and upload some pictures.

PIT and STL start tomorrow on Skywest. I've been told they will be ground boarding near the C17 gate area.

These are the comments FL's CEO made at a recent event in Milwaukee. He discussed the airline's failed bid to take over YX.

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html

Also says AirTran will have 56 departures from MKE by spring and is considering establishing a crew base in Milwaukee. Says "we're in it for the long haul."

These are the comments FL's CEO made at a recent event in Milwaukee. He discussed the airline's failed bid to take over YX.

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html

Also says AirTran will have 56 departures from MKE by spring and is considering establishing a crew base in Milwaukee. Says "we're in it for the long haul."

Thanks for posting this...interesting stuff. Without a paid subscription I can't access all of it, however they tend to put these into the weekly digest I get of travel stories from the business journal network, so maybe I'll be able to see it then.

The 56 matches what their press release said back in early November, with 38 mainline and 18 CRJ. However there might really be two fewer because (a) to get to 56 you have to count both seasonal PHX service which ends in April and seasonal SAN which starts in late May, and (b) BOS listed as 3x seems like a typo because it has never been loaded as 3 (while all other changes and increased were loaded 6 weeks ago) and they didn't promote it as an expansion, which they have for every other increase.

Anyway, here are the changes from last June verus this June:

RSW +2
FLL +1
BKG -1 (Branson)
LGA -1
DCA +1
DFW +2
STL -2
DEN +1
SFO -1 (red eye 4x/week to SFO and 3x/week to SEA)

(PIT and IND didn't come until October, so they don't count as dropped)

Net gain of 2 mainline flights...plus the 18 CRJ flights to PIT/CAK/OMA/DSM/STL/IND.

Interesting that they are keeping Florida at full force all summer, including 2x/day nonstop to Fort Myers, a route which never supported more than 1x/week nonstops during the off season.

Also interesting that they may add a crew base, which is something that I've heard as in the works for more than a year. I wonder if it it will come to pass? There has been talk that a crew base was right around the corner since 2008, although I'm not sure if it was official public remarks or not.

These are the comments FL's CEO made at a recent event in Milwaukee. He discussed the airline's failed bid to take over YX.

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html

Also says AirTran will have 56 departures from MKE by spring and is considering establishing a crew base in Milwaukee. Says "we're in it for the long haul."

I spoke with an AirTran FA a few months ago, he recently moved to MKE from MSP.

Says "we're in it for the long haul."

He also said during their last earnings call that they'd give MKE "another year" to see how things develop.

I think a lot depends on how this winter turns out for AirTran and if airlines can make money during off-peak periods.

These are the comments FL's CEO made at a recent event in Milwaukee. He discussed the airline's failed bid to take over YX.

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html

Also says AirTran will have 56 departures from MKE by spring and is considering establishing a crew base in Milwaukee. Says "we're in it for the long haul."

Any idea if this article will ever be posted for non-subscribers? Or do I have to stop being cheap and just subscribe? :)

Here is the full text of the article:

Airline exec questions Milwaukee as destination
Republic’s Bedford says city not leisure market
The Business Journal of Milwaukee - by Rich Rovito

The top executive of Republic Airways Holdings Inc., which purchased Midwest Airlines earlier this year, offered some disparaging comments concerning Milwaukee as a travel destination during a recent presentation to investors and industry analysts.

“Milwaukee is not a destination market by price. I don’t care how cheap you make it, you don’t go there unless you have to,” Republic chief executive officer Bryan Bedford said at the Next Generation Equity Research Airlines Conference in New York City Dec. 9.

The comments drew laughter from the audience, but Milwaukee business and travel leaders didn’t find much humor in Bedford’s assessment.

Bedford also told analysts that Milwaukee-area travelers are willing to pay more to book a flight on Oak Creek-based Midwest Airlines, which Republic purchased in July for $31 million.

“We have 1.1 million frequent fliers in Milwaukee and they will pay a premium to fly on Midwest,” he said. “They love that cookie.”

Bedford’s comments referred to the baked-on-board chocolate chip cookies that long have been a symbol of Midwest, an airline that historically has catered to business travelers and at one time offered unique amenities such as free wine, champagne and gourmet meals before drastically reducing such offerings in recent years.

Bedford also spoke of Indianapolis-based Republic’s transformation of Midwest into a “virtual airline” with no airline certificate, and no Midwest-owned or leased aircraft, unions or pension.

“All that stuff is gone,” Bedford said. “It’s simply Midwest branding operated by Republic.”

The Milwaukee-area tourism economy in 2009 is projected to be about $2.7 billion, according to Visit Milwaukee, the city’s visitors and convention bureau. About 30 percent of that total is derived from leisure travel, Visit Milwaukee spokesman Dave Fantle said.

“People are making conscious decisions to visit the Milwaukee area,” Fantle said. “We’re a great surprise destination. We have a high ‘wow’ factor.”

Fantle offered to take Bedford on a “familiarization” tour of the Milwaukee area so that he could view local attractions.

“Once Mr. Bedford has had an opportunity to spend more time here, I’m sure he’ll be a new advocate for the city,” Fantle said.

Midwest spokesman Jim Reichart pointed out that Bedford made the comments in the context of a much broader presentation about Republic’s operations.

“You have to consider the environment and the audience. You speak a little bit differently to that crowd,” Reichart said. “This was not at all a commentary about Milwaukee’s importance as a leisure destination.”

The Milwaukee area attracts more leisure travelers in warmer months, but air travel to the area for the rest of the year tends to be limited mainly to business and personal purposes, Reichart said.

Milwaukee tends to mainly attract business travelers, a segment on which Midwest built its business, Republic spokesman Carlo Bertolini said.

“Milwaukee isn’t Las Vegas or Orlando,” he said. “It’s not an insult, it’s just a different traffic pattern. The bulk of the traffic in Milwaukee isn’t leisure.”

Business travel remains the “bread and butter” of Midwest’s business, Bertolini said.

Lower fares often don’t stimulate ticket purchases for business travel like they do for leisure purposes, meaning many Midwest customers pay higher prices, Bertolini said.

“Business travel happens when business needs to be done,” he said.

‘Restoring Midwest network’

As for the transformation of Midwest into a “virtual” airline, Bertolini said such a move was necessary to save the airline.

“It has allowed us to begin restoring the Midwest network at a sustainable cost level,” he said.

The transformation has been “invisible” to most consumers since Republic’s planes are painted with the Midwest name and color scheme.

Robert Fornaro, chairman, president and CEO of AirTran Holdings Inc., which operates AirTran Airways, offered a different assessment of the Milwaukee-area travel market.

“The destination isn’t just Milwaukee. It’s southeastern Wisconsin and northern Illinois,” Fornaro said in an interview. “It’s a bigger market area than most people realize.”

High airfares due to a lack of competition, not Milwaukee’s status as a tourist attraction, have hindered travel to the area, Fornaro said.

“One of the reasons Milwaukee hasn’t been a strong destination is that it has been overpriced,” he said.

Orlando, Fla.-based AirTran Airways has been aggressively expanding its service at Milwaukee’s General Mitchell International Airport since a failed takeover of Midwest in 2007.

The increased competition at Mitchell has led to lower airfares and service to more cities, which should allow Milwaukee to attract more meetings and convention business, Fornaro said.

“You’ll have bigger airplanes and better prices and you’re going to be able to compete with Chicago and Minneapolis for the convention business, where in years past it was much more difficult,” he said.

Although Midwest’s operations have changed dramatically over the past two years, the brand remains strong and the airline has been focusing on improving customer service as a result of the financial stability provided by its new owners, Reichart said.

Midwest has been rebuilding its route network in recent months, adding back service to cities such as Los Angeles; San Francisco; Louisville, Ky.; Raleigh-Durham, N.C.; and St. Louis, he said.

Midwest also recently announced that it is expanding its existing codeshare program with Denver-based Frontier Airlines, which also is owned by Republic, to include all destinations on both airlines’ route networks. With the expansion, travelers will be able to book flights on a single ticket to a a total of 63 Midwest and Frontier destinations.

“Our association with Frontier also helps us expand what we can offer customers,” he said.

This year has been a time of “brand transition” for Midwest under new ownership, Reichart said. In 2010, Republic will determine how Midwest and Frontier can be combined to best serve air travelers, he said.

Any talk of the elimination of the Midwest brand name would be “premature” at this point, Reichart said.

Thanks newsmanhoss, but I just Googled the title and I was able to read the full story on The New Mexico Business Weekly website from the Google link. If I post the link here you get the same message, "this story is for subscribers only". Somehow Google gets you to the subscribers only page. LOL

Any idea if this article will ever be posted for non-subscribers? Or do I have to stop being cheap and just subscribe? :)

I found the full story with this link:

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html?b=12613716002613061&s=industry&i=travel (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html?b=1261371600^2613061&s=industry&i=travel)

I found the full story with this link:

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html?b=12613716002613061&s=industry&i=travel (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2009/12/21/story7.html?b=1261371600^2613061&s=industry&i=travel)

Very interesting article. I just flew WN into Milwaukee and the flight attendant made a reference to Midwest. She stated " I know we don't serve cookies like your hometown airline use to but we have something for you". I like southwest, they have a very different business model and I always enjoy flying with them.

I am in Milwaukee for the holidays and am planning an impromptu trip to SFO on Airtran. It will be nice to see how they are managing all of the new flights. I am wondering if they added any gates? It would bake since for US Air to move to frontier's old gate and the adjacent gate. That way the back half of the C concourse can be for Airtran. I know that MKE is very busy with the new flights do any of you locals know how early I should get to the airport?

I am in Milwaukee for the holidays and am planning an impromptu trip to SFO on Airtran. It will be nice to see how they are managing all of the new flights. I am wondering if they added any gates? It would bake since for US Air to move to frontier's old gate and the adjacent gate. That way the back half of the C concourse can be for Airtran. I know that MKE is very busy with the new flights do any of you locals know how early I should get to the airport?

With a combination of peak travel periods and uncertain weather conditions later this week, arrival a minimum of two hours before scheduled departure is advised, especially if you are checking baggage.

The security lines around Thanksgiving time were extremely long.

Very interesting article. I just flew WN into Milwaukee and the flight attendant made a reference to Midwest. She stated " I know we don't serve cookies like your hometown airline use to but we have something for you". I like southwest, they have a very different business model and I always enjoy flying with them.

I am in Milwaukee for the holidays and am planning an impromptu trip to SFO on Airtran. It will be nice to see how they are managing all of the new flights. I am wondering if they added any gates? It would bake since for US Air to move to frontier's old gate and the adjacent gate. That way the back half of the C concourse can be for Airtran. I know that MKE is very busy with the new flights do any of you locals know how early I should get to the airport?

AirTran is up to 9 gates on concourse C and it gets pretty busy with the SkyWest partner flights now coming online. They are planning to have at least 56 departures per day at their peak in 2010.

When does your SFO flight depart from MKE? I'm assuming it's the 8:45 a.m. departure. If so, you'll want to get there at least an hour early if you are not checking bags. Add another 30 minutes-1 hour if you need to check.

Interesting that they are keeping Florida at full force all summer, including 2x/day nonstop to Fort Myers, a route which never supported more than 1x/week nonstops during the off season.


Is it really all that unusual? In IND they are keeping a full schedule to Florida for the summer which includes 4x to MCO, 3x to RSW, 2x to TPA and 1x to FLL and SRQ. Its 5x on the weekends to MCO and 4x to RSW. I don't honestly understand why RSW is doing so well. Not sure what that area has to offer.

I don't honestly understand why RSW is doing so well. Not sure what that area has to offer.

I am sure Bryan Bedford could tell you. :D

I am sure Bryan Bedford could tell you. :D



BB only knows about CASM. Don't think he understands markets or marketing. Here are two examples...

---
“Milwaukee is not a destination market by price. I don’t care how cheap you make it, you don’t go there unless you have to,” Republic chief executive officer Bryan Bedford.

He thinks the round trip tickets sold from MKE to MCO, LAS, ... are not price sensitve.

---
“We have 1.1 million frequent fliers in Milwaukee and they will pay a premium to fly on Midwest,” he said. “They love that cookie.”

The guys thinks Milwaukee passengers will pay a RASM premium for a COOKIE.

---

Dude, don't make cuts in your Marketing Department and stop giving speeches on topics you don't understand.

BB only knows about CASM. Don't think he understands markets or marketing. Here are two examples...

---
“Milwaukee is not a destination market by price. I don’t care how cheap you make it, you don’t go there unless you have to,” Republic chief executive officer Bryan Bedford.

He think the round trip tickets sold from MKE to MCO, LAS, ... are not price sensitve.

---
“We have 1.1 million frequent fliers in Milwaukee and they will pay a premium to fly on Midwest,” he said. “They love that cookie.”

The guys thinks Milwaukee passengers will pay a RASM premium for a COOKIE.

---

Dude, don't make cuts in your Marketing Department and stop giving speeches on topics you don't understand.

Perhaps you shouldn't be posting on topics you either clearly don't understand or take way out of context to support your own grudge against Republic and Bedford in particular.

If you actually read the transcript or listened to Bedford's presentation at the airline conference, he said two things about price stimulation:

1) "We’ve moved five A319s to Milwaukee where they fly high-density, low-yield leisure markets such as Phoenix, Las Vegas, Tampa, Orlando and Fort Lauderdale, where price stimulation actually works. They are 136-seat, single-class, low cost, sub-six-cent-ex-fuel CASM aircraft that is very competitive with both Southwest and Frontier and they do it under Midwest branding taking advantage of the local market position there."

Am I missing something here? It seems Bedford is very much aware that certain markets from Milwaukee can be stimulated by price. That's one of the reasons the Airbus jets have been assigned to the high-volume leisure markets. Demand to Las Vegas and Orlando in particular are virtually bottomless during peak travel periods.

2) "Milwaukee is not a destination market that you can stimulate by price. I don’t care how cheap you make it; you don’t go there unless you have to, so there is no reason price stimulation will be a competitive advantage"

For the umpteenth time, Bedford clearly said that Milwaukee is not a destination market that can be stimulated by demand. Should he have phrased this better? Yes. Was his statement correct? Absolutely. Why slash fares when you don't have to?

Republic still has a very good marketing department. They've done a much better job in recent months than Midwest ever did, especially when it comes to the utilization of social media. Much of the direction from a marketing, fare level, and route development standpoint comes directly from Sean Menke, who is in-charge of the day-to-day operations at both Midwest and Frontier.

I find it interesting that you keep bringing up CASM. Do you realize just how important CASM is to airlines these days, especially those serving Milwaukee? The airport is a financial bloodbath for everyone at the moment and having a competitive cost structure is absolutely critical. The "old" Midwest would simply not be sustainable in this environment. Bedford should absolutely be focused on costs. If he's not, then he should be shown the door.

My point was that some city pairs are price sensitive and some are not as price sensitive.

The fact is people in Wisconsin use the MKE airport to go on vacations and people from other states vacation in Wisconsin. This statement is an 100% dig on Milwaukee and all of Wisconsin...

“I don’t care how cheap you make it, you don’t go there unless you have to,” Republic chief executive officer Bryan Bedford.

I live here. I can't respect or support a CEO that is hostile to employees and the local community.

I live here. I can't respect or support a CEO that is hostile to employees and the local community.

In fairness, you have been actively looking for reasons to not respect or support Midwest and Bedford.

Your viewpoint would probably carry more weight had you not been "Debbie the Downer" about nearly everything that Bedford has done thus far.

In fairness, you have been actively looking for reasons to not respect or support Midwest and Bedford.

Your viewpoint would probably carry more weight had you not been "Debbie the Downer" about nearly everything that Bedford has done thus far.

I think in all fairness Bedford has no respect for MKE. I realize business is business, but when you take over such a well known entity in Milwaukee as YX is, you try to have some sense and win over the masses. Once the honeymoon stage is over, then ??????

I think in all fairness Bedford has no respect for MKE. I realize business is business, but when you take over such a well known entity in Milwaukee as YX is, you try to have some sense and win over the masses. Once the honeymoon stage is over, then ??????

It seems to me that Republic has been having some success winning over the masses lately.

Loads have held-up remarkably well despite 18 months of nearly constant negative PR Midwest has been slowly regaining market share in Milwaukee over the past few months, helped in part by the restoration of routes previously cut. Republic is also bringing 800 + jobs to Milwaukee.

His comments were made at an airline industry conference and were taken way out of context. Besides sites like this, the storm around his comments has already blown over and will probably have little to no impact of the business.

Other than the comment about Milwaukee not being a destination market, what else has Bedford said or done that would lead you to believe he has no respect for Milwaukee?

Instead of taking swipes at Bedford, perhaps the business community and tourism industry should acknowledge he was right and work with Republic to help highlight everything that Wisconsin has to offer and hopefully bring more people to the state. That's far more constructive than this silly tit-for-tat that has been going on the last several days.

To n735,

You take a comment that I made in jest and then turn it into your endless tirade which said nothing that you haven't said before. Your posts are simply sad.

Republic is also bringing 800 + jobs to Milwaukee.


Plus bringing 800 jobs to a community means never having to say you are sorry :-) Even though he did. In a time when countless jobs are being cut its a HUGE deal to be able to bring significant jobs to a market and I'm certain the people of Milwaukee have noticed. Certainly the local business leaders and politicians have.

Midwest has been and will be the airline with clout in the Milwaukee area.

Plus bringing 800 jobs to a community means never having to say you are sorry :-) Even though he did. In a time when countless jobs are being cut its a HUGE deal to be able to bring significant jobs to a market and I'm certain the people of Milwaukee have noticed. Certainly the local business leaders and politicians have.

Midwest has been and will be the airline with clout in the Milwaukee area.

With the old establishment yes but times are changing. Airtran specifically and Southwest have made an impact on the Milwaukee market. Times are changing and that is not a bad thing. The truth is that Midwest no longer has a blank check to do what ever it wants and charge those insane fairs anymore. If they do, southwest will "ding" fair them to you know where. Competition is great for the consumers.

X Competition is great for the consumers.

^^^ Aways

The truth is that Midwest no longer has a blank check to do what ever it wants and charge those insane fairs anymore. If they do, southwest will "ding" fair them to you know where.

It's probably worth pointing out again that in many instances Southwest does not offer the lowest fare on competitive routes. Many people think they do which has worked out very well for Southwest over the years.

OT, but I must say I'm impressed with you Tim. Over the last few years you've lamented about the lack of service from Milwaukee to the West Coast and the fact that you will only take a non-stop flight. Look at you now...flying Southwest into Milwaukee and taking aconnection :D

Enjoy your time in Milwaukee and safe travels to San Francisco.

It's probably worth pointing out again that in many instances Southwest does not offer the lowest fare on competitive routes.

WN is often not the low cost carrier. There are many other reasons that I fly them 85% of the time.

However, to Tim34 point, you do not want to get into a fare war with SWA because they will win.

However, to Tim34 point, you do not want to get into a fare war with SWA because they will win.

Indeed. There's a huge fare war going on at this very monent in Milwaukee . I wonder who is winning (i.e. losing the least amount of money)?

Indeed. There's a huge fare war going on at this very monent in Milwaukee . I wonder who is winning (i.e. losing the least amount of money)?

You are right indeed...huge fare war going on and I am just looking at one city...right now to fly MKE-BOS in mid/late January is only $142 on Airtran...Midwest is currently $182....Both are low low prices...but question is what is the motivation?

As we have seen from Knope's numbers Airtran's performance on BOS has been abysmal with only 2 daily non-stop flights between MKE and BOS. This must be their last ditch effort to see how many people they can attract over from Midwest on the route....assuming Midwest does not match the price.

You are right indeed...huge fare war going on and I am just looking at one city...right now to fly MKE-BOS in mid/late January is only $142 on Airtran...Midwest is currently $182....Both are low low prices...but question is what is the motivation?

As we have seen from Knope's numbers Airtran's performance on BOS has been abysmal with only 2 daily non-stop flights between MKE and BOS. This must be their last ditch effort to see how many people they can attract over from Midwest on the route....assuming Midwest does not match the price.

So what !!!! You act like Midwest has no routes which are preforming under preforming :rolleyes:
I forgot Midwest is the most profitable airline ever and would never have problems with dealing with competition from Airtran, Delta or Southwest. Midwest is invincible. Milwaukee area residents don't even know that other airlines besides Midwest exist. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

WN is often not the low cost carrier. There are many other reasons that I fly them 85% of the time.

However, to Tim34 point, you do not want to get into a fare war with SWA because they will win.

Yes I stated that every time an airline gets into a price war with southwest they will automatically lose. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I fly Southwest often because I like their service.

So what !!!! You act like Midwest has no routes which are preforming under preforming :rolleyes:
I forgot Midwest is the most profitable airline ever and would never have problems with dealing with competition from Airtran, Delta or Southwest. Midwest is invincible. Milwaukee area residents don't even know that other airlines besides Midwest exist. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Alright...is it a feature of this board to exaggerate other people's comments?

I worked off of one route, which I am fairly familiar and fly frequently so I see the fare differences on a regular basis...Knope's stats for Airtran's performance on MKE-BOS have been published and they are not that great...Midwest has been doing much better and I ask a question at the end as to what the motivation is for Airtran to dump the price on MKE-BOS and whether Midwest will match....Where in there do you get the idea that I believe Midwest has no under-performing routes?

And how do you pull from my comment that I believe Milwaukee area residents only know Midwest? I had atleast 20 segments on DL this year alone, so I cant even be put into that bucket that you created.

Alright...is it a feature of this board to exaggerate other people's comments?

I worked off of one route, which I am fairly familiar and fly frequently so I see the fare differences on a regular basis...Knope's stats for Airtran's performance on MKE-BOS have been published and they are not that great...Midwest has been doing much better and I ask a question at the end as to what the motivation is for Airtran to dump the price on MKE-BOS and whether Midwest will match....Where in there do you get the idea that I believe Midwest has no under-performing routes?

And how do you pull from my comment that I believe Milwaukee area residents only know Midwest? I had atleast 20 segments on DL this year alone, so I cant even be put into that bucket that you created.

Okay, lets say that I concede to you that Midwest has been preforming better than Airtran? Why is it that Midwest has been sold twice in the past five years and does not have an operating certificate or any of their own flight crews? Airtran and Southwest have their own planes. While Southwest and Airtran may have had their problems in the past couple of years to compare them to what is going on with Midwest a little off the mark
:rolleyes:

Okay, lets say that I concede to you that Midwest has been preforming better than Airtran? Why is it that Midwest has been sold twice in the past five years and does not have an operating certificate or any of their own flight crews? Airtran and Southwest have their own planes. While Southwest and Airtran may have had their problems in the past couple of years to compare them to what is going on with Midwest a little off the mark
:rolleyes:



Don't you remember? Midwest was bought by TPG/NWA to block AirTrans growth plan in MKE. Midwest had a stronger cash position ($180M) more then Republic currently holds.

Why didn't AirTran have a chance to offer 32M for Midwest?

This was not failing company being bought by TPG/NWA. TPG is a major stock holder in Republic, TPG has a sit on the Republic board and TPG legally agreed to merge the companies...

Item 2.01 Completion of Acquisition or Disposition of Assets.

On July 31, 2009, pursuant to the terms of the Agreement and Plan of Merger, dated as of June 23, 2009, among Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (the “Company”), RJET Acquisition, Inc. and Midwest Air Group, Inc. (“MAG”), as amended (the “Merger Agreement”), RJET Acquisition, Inc. merged with and into MAG (the “Merger”) with MAG continuing as the surviving corporation and becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary





answer: because Midwest was not up for sale

Don't you remember? Midwest was bought by TPG/NWA to block AirTrans growth plan in MKE. Midwest had a stronger cash position ($180M) more then Republic currently holds.

Why didn't AirTran have a chance to offer 32M for Midwest?

This was not failing company being bought by TPG/NWA. TPG is a major stock holder in Republic, TPG has a sit on the Republic board and TPG legally agreed to merge the companies...

Item 2.01 Completion of Acquisition or Disposition of Assets.

On July 31, 2009, pursuant to the terms of the Agreement and Plan of Merger, dated as of June 23, 2009, among Republic Airways Holdings Inc. (the “Company”), RJET Acquisition, Inc. and Midwest Air Group, Inc. (“MAG”), as amended (the “Merger Agreement”), RJET Acquisition, Inc. merged with and into MAG (the “Merger”) with MAG continuing as the surviving corporation and becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary





answer: because Midwest was not up for sale

If you are trying to say that Midwest has been in a strong position in the past couple of years you are going to need more proof then that. If they were so strong why did Airtran see them as easy pickings? Why did they sell off their MD80s and leave thousands of passengers stranded. Why are they not a major american carrier? Why?? I will tell you why? they have their own issues which are far greater than anything Southwest or Airtran have.

Everyone is argueing about 2 different topics. On the Midwest side they are comparing Midwest vs Airtran in Milwaukee only. On the Airtran/SWA side they are comparing Midwest as a whole vs. Airtran/SWAs entire operation. Of course Airtran and Southwest have been doing better the past few years overall because their operation is spread out. Midwest still retains the highest market share in Milwaukee and have the strongest position in that city.

If you are trying to say that Midwest has been in a strong position in the past couple of years you are going to need more proof then that. If they were so strong why did Airtran see them as easy pickings? Why did they sell off their MD80s and leave thousands of passengers stranded. Why are they not a major american carrier? Why?? I will tell you why? they have their own issues which are far greater than anything Southwest or Airtran have.


Good questions, the answers don't always add up after TPG/NWA buy Midwest.

Easy pickings?
450M isn't easy pickings in my book. Almost twice Republic Market Cap: 252.85M

Why does Delta, Allegiant and American still fly MD80s?
My guess is that no monthly lease payments help pay for alot of fuel, plus aircraft usage can go up or down at no cost. Midwest parking 100% paid off aircraft that had lower CASMs then the B717.

Midwest parking 100% paid off aircraft that had lower CASMs then the B717.

I assume you're referring to the MD80s. If that's the case, then I believe few, if any, of those planes were paid-off by Midwest. Many of those planes were actually leased and Midwest stopped making payments on those aircraft during the restructuring process.

When those planes were parked, oil was approaching $150 a barrel and there was a lot of speculation that it would reach or surpass the $200 mark. No airline has the cost structure in place to make a profit under those conditions. At Midwest, things were reaching a full blown crisis that summer and by most accounts TPG/Seasbury tried to stop the gushing of red ink in part by parking aging, inefficient aircraft.

Delta recently said that the economics of the MD80s still work with oil at around $90 a barrel but things start to go downhill quickly after that. American can't get rid of their MD80 fleet fast enough. Allegiant is in a completely different league. What works for them will probably not work for anyone else.

I assume you're referring to the MD80s. If that's the case, then I believe few, if any, of those planes were paid-off by Midwest. Many of those planes were actually leased and Midwest stopped making payments on those aircraft during the restructuring process.

When those planes were parked, oil was approaching $150 a barrel and there was a lot of speculation that it would reach or surpass the $200 mark. No airline has the cost structure in place to make a profit under those conditions. At Midwest, things were reaching a full blown crisis that summer and by most accounts TPG/Seasbury tried to stop the gushing of red ink in part by parking aging, inefficient aircraft.

Delta recently said that the economics of the MD80s still work with oil at around $90 a barrel but things start to go downhill quickly after that. American can't get rid of their MD80 fleet fast enough. Allegiant is in a completely different league. What works for them will probably not work for anyone else.



You need to get your facts correct.

--- Midwest owned 6-7 of the 12 MD80s
--- The MD80 had equal or lower CASMs then the 99 B717
--- Crude Oil topped in June/July
--- Crude Oil dropped to $49 by November 2008, $68 October, $96 September
--- MD80 stopped flying November 2008
--- More seats and lower/no leases the MD80 had lower CASMs then the B717
--- E170 starts flying October

Airline CEOs had to know that Crude Oil prices were not driven by supply and demand. I don't think TPG actions were Oil price driven verses the desire to bring in new 100 seat equipment. Maintenance and Flight Standards started researching equipment changes during the summer of 2008.

Maybe financing trouble during the economic crisis made TPG join forces with Republic. I think Republic had extra aircraft and cheaper crews.

Good questions, the answers don't always add up after TPG/NWA buy Midwest.

Easy pickings?
450M isn't easy pickings in my book. Almost twice Republic Market Cap: 252.85M

Why does Delta, Allegiant and American still fly MD80s?
My guess is that no monthly lease payments help pay for alot of fuel, plus aircraft usage can go up or down at no cost. Midwest parking 100% paid off aircraft that had lower CASMs then the B717.

Yes TP over paid for Midwest and then they sold it for what 35 million. Again Midwest's problems in the past couple of years set it apart from Airtran and Southwest. Nothing that you have stated has proved otherwise.
Oh and one more thing,

Allegiant is profitable

You need to get your facts correct.

--- Midwest owned 6-7 of the 12 MD80s
--- The MD80 had equal or lower CASMs then the 99 B717
--- Crude Oil topped in June/July
--- Crude Oil dropped to $49 by November 2008, $68 October, $96 September
--- MD80 stopped flying November 2008
--- More seats and lower/no leases the MD80 had lower CASMs then the B717
--- E170 starts flying October





You stated that Midwest parked 100% paid-off aircraft. I don't have the information handy at the moment, but I thought I recalled during the first restructuring that occurred in 2003 that a majority of the MD80s were leased. How many were actually paid-off? I know that some of the planes were returned to the lessor once they were pulled from service.

It wouldn't have mattered how low CASM was on the MD80s. They were fuel hogs and couldn't break even with oil near $150. During the early part of the summer, some analysts were predicting oil would surpass $200. Obviously the bubble burst. Before that happened, airlines were taking some pretty drastic measures to ensure on-going viability. For example, United parked 100 mainline aircraft.

Things were obviously pretty desperate at Midwest if TPG/Seasbury made the decision to park the MD80s. Apparently TPG/Seasbury and Hoeksema didn't exactly see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.

You're correct that oil was not that high when the MD80s were parked. I had meant to say when the announcement was made that the planes would be parked but I didn't proof-read thoroughly enough. Good catch.

Regardless of what happened to the price of oil, it will go back-up when the economy starts improving. Assuming Midwest had kept the MD80s in service, it would have only been a short term solution anyways. Midwest has stated that they had tried replacing those planes in 2007 but couldn't get financing.

You need to get your facts correct.

--- Midwest owned 6-7 of the 12 MD80s
--- The MD80 had equal or lower CASMs then the 99 B717
--- Crude Oil topped in June/July
--- Crude Oil dropped to $49 by November 2008, $68 October, $96 September
--- MD80 stopped flying November 2008
--- More seats and lower/no leases the MD80 had lower CASMs then the B717
--- E170 starts flying October
Airline CEOs had to know that Crude Oil prices were not driven by supply and demand. I don't think TPG actions were Oil price driven verses the desire to bring in new 100 seat equipment. Maintenance and Flight Standards started researching equipment changes during the summer of 2008.

Ok some facts.

- Midwest owned 5 of the 12 MD-80. ( and some they still do)
- The announcement to park the -80s came on June 20 2008. (your peak of oil prices)
- Scheduled MD-80 flying stopped around 9/1/08. Only charters continued past that point until they found someone to take them over.
- The -80s also were due to begin the yearly heavy check visits in July/August. Parking them saved millions from this alone.
- I know of no work being done in the maintenance dept. concerning new equip. until the 170 project began in September.

Remember Seabury came in right before all this happened and was pretty much calling all the shots. Midwest was at their mercy.

I forgot to say this earlier, but welcome to FlyerTalk sideflare75! It's nice to see your posts here as well as on airliners.net.

I forgot to say this earlier, but welcome to FlyerTalk sideflare75! It's nice to see your posts here as well as on airliners.net.

+1

Thanks for your factual information, based on your work experience with YX.

You need to get your facts correct.

--- Midwest owned 6-7 of the 12 MD80s
--- The MD80 had equal or lower CASMs then the 99 B717
--- Crude Oil topped in June/July
--- Crude Oil dropped to $49 by November 2008, $68 October, $96 September
--- MD80 stopped flying November 2008
--- More seats and lower/no leases the MD80 had lower CASMs then the B717
--- E170 starts flying October

Airline CEOs had to know that Crude Oil prices were not driven by supply and demand. I don't think TPG actions were Oil price driven verses the desire to bring in new 100 seat equipment. Maintenance and Flight Standards started researching equipment changes during the summer of 2008.

Maybe financing trouble during the economic crisis made TPG join forces with Republic. I think Republic had extra aircraft and cheaper crews.

The only fact I care about was the fact I got standed more because of mechanical issues with the Midwest MD-80's than any other aircraft, no matter the airline. I finally gave up on my trips to TPA and PHX. Those planes could not have left too soon for me.

And since, I have found the E jets to be way more dependable.

One flyers observations.

Merry Christmas all!

MARKET SHARE
AirTran Airways narrowed the gap with its chief rival, Oak Creek-based Midwest Airlines, in October in the battle for top market share at General Mitchell International Airport.

Airline
Market share (10. 2009) (Sept. 2009) (Oct. 2008)
Midwest Airlines 34.1 35.4 36.2
AirTran Airways 26.7 24.5 14.9
Delta Air Lines
Northwest Airlines* 19.0 19.5 23.6
*Delta Air Lines acquired Northwest Airlines in October 2008
Source: General Mitchell International Airport

Those planes could not have left too soon for me.

And since, I have found the E jets to be way more dependable.



I was glad to see those things go in 2008, fuel hogs, plagued with mechanical problems.
The E jets are one reliable, dependable aircraft.

I have been especially impressed with the E190. As good as if not better than the 717.

I have been especially impressed with the E190. As good as if not better than the 717.

Not counting business class flying the most comfortable domestic flight I've had was on the NW/Compass E175. I'd certainly take the E175 over the B717 any day. Not sure how the higher model Ejets compare to the 175 but if they are as good then the edge would go to the airline flying that equipment.

Not counting business class flying the most comfortable domestic flight I've had was on the NW/Compass E175. I'd certainly take the E175 over the B717 any day. Not sure how the higher model Ejets compare to the 175 but if they are as good then the edge would go to the airline flying that equipment.

I heard that they have small overhead bins though(meaning the E175)?

The bins are comparable to the "two side" of the 717 and M80.

You know how the normal configuration on the 717 and M80 is 2x3? The typical bins on the "three side" are deeper than on the "two side". Larger roller bags which fit straight in on the "three side" had to go crosswise on the "two side". The bins on the E170 and E190 are all like the "two side" becuase the profile of the plane is smaller.

Now one could (rightfully) state that because the coach 717 is 2x3 and the coach E170/E190 is 2x2, the bin space per seat is about the same, which it is. The issue is that some people don't use the bins and others user more than their share of the bins. On the 717 or M80 that means that someone with a large carryon that only fits on the "three side" can jam their bag up there and take up the bins spec of 3 people if they need to, even if they're sitting on the "two side". On the E190 there simply isn't a bin on either side of the aisle that big, even if nobody else uses the bins at all.

So while bin space per person is comparable to the 717 and M80, there is no bin as large as on the "three side" on the E170/E190. The bins are definitely much larger than those on a CRJ, ERJ, or FRJ.

If you like a smaller aircraft with less baggage space and a lower dispatch rate, the E190 is much better than the B717. I will not even talk about the crew comparision. You get the idea, the new "Midwest" is not comparable to any mainline airline. Great news about Airtran basing crews out of Milwaukee. Let me see, fly a RJ with interns or fly Airtran with big airplanes and career employees. Republic doesn't even bother baking those cookies on all of their flights. How long will people pay a 156 % premium to fly a commuter or a LLC like Frontier. Airtran has a bright future in Milwaukee.

Let me see, fly a RJ with interns or fly Airtran with big airplanes and career employees.

Airtran no longer has a monopoly on "big airplanes" with the signing of that contract with Skywest. Or is Skywest flying "big airplanes" now?

Airtran no longer has a monopoly on "big airplanes" with the signing of that contract with Skywest. Or is Skywest flying "big airplanes" now?

Yeah but that is only if you are flying to a small city in the region like Omaha. All of their major destinations are on full size aircraft

Yeah but that is only if you are flying to a small city in the region like Omaha. All of their major destinations are on full size aircraft

So you're saying that PIT, IND, and STL are small cities as well?

If you like a smaller aircraft with less baggage space and a lower dispatch rate, the E190 is much better than the B717.

The E190 has more comfortable coach seats than the 717 and the 737, and there are no middle seats. Baggage space per seat is the same, too, which I addressed a few spots up.

As for dispatch reliability problems with the Embraers, prove it.

For the most recently reported Midwest stats (October 2009) , the Republic E190 / E170 fleet had a higher completion factor than the 717's and an on-time record nearly as good.

October 2009 completion factor for YX/YX* overall was 99.3%
99.9% E190/E170
99.5% 717

That means 0.1% of all E190/E170 flights were canceled for any reason.
0.5% of all 717 flights were canceled for any reason.


October 2009 on-time performance for YX/YX* overall was 78.6%
80.9% E190/E170
82.7% 717

If the E190/E170 aircraft had any sort of widespread dispatch reliability issue, the completion factor and on-time results would show it. They don't.

I will not even talk about the crew comparison.

Well then let me.

I logged hundreds and hundreds of YX segments over the years, 42 this year alone. Over the years I've had some fantastic service from the YX inflight crews, but now and then some downright icy and/or lazy service from the old guard Midwest inflight as well. Some of the best service I've had over the years has been on the RJ's...Skyway FRJ, Skywest CRJ, and Chautauqua ERJ (only one remarkable ERJ experience so far, but I've only been on a few YX* ERJ flights so far).

I've had DC9/M80/717 flights where the Midwest inflight crew couldn't wait to race through the cabin and hide in the galley...including on a SFO-MKE flight in the mid-late 90's where they hid for the bulk of the flight. That wasn't the norm, but it definitely wasn't a single indecent. I've had other experiences where they really busted their tails and were in the cabin the entire flight. The YX inflight crew had some exceptional professionals for whom service was in their blood, but they also had some who appeared to simply go through the motions or who cultivated bad attitudes and burnout. Most were someplace in the middle.

On Republic-operated flights, I've had some inflight service which was adequate but quite unexceptional, and some which went above and beyond the norm. I had a Republic crew come through a full cabin offering water on an ATC ramp delay the other week, something I never experienced on the 717. I've also seen Republic crews on two different flights come through the cabin a second time with cookies, again not the YX norm. (I've seen on occasion a Midwest F/A put a few in a bag for a passenger or two, or give them to the ground agents at the arrival station, but usually the leftovers were dumped.)

The point of this is not about the cookies in particular, but that something like an extra cookie pass or serving water on an ATC delay is at the option of the F/A, and clearly some Republic crews care to go the extra mile just like some YX crews did. And the word *some* is appropriate for both the old-guard YX inflight members as well as Republic's.

I will not even talk about the crew comparision.

That's good because you simply don't know what you're talking about.

I'm sure it would surprise you greatly that I've been on a few Republic operated flights staffed by...gasp...former Midwest flight attendants.

Service has been just as good or in some cases better than what I've experienced on actaul Midwest metal in recent years. I know I'm not the only one on this board who feels this way, either. I'm glad that the Republic crews "get it" now as it has taken some time to get everyone to understand and implement the Midwest service standards.

On Republic-operated flights, I've had some inflight service which was adequate but quite unexceptional, and some which went above and beyond the norm.
... some Republic crews care to go the extra mile just like some YX crews did. And the word *some* is appropriate for both the old-guard YX inflight members as well as Republic's.

I was on an E170 last week, where there was one pass with the bev cart and no real attempt to sell the breakfast or snacks. The cabin crew was in the galley for most of the three hour flight.

I heard another passenger onboard the flight inquire about a wheelchair that was ordered for their destination; the FA merely shook his head, as if to say "I don't know," and continued to walk down the aisle, with no other response or action. This was totally unacceptable.

On the return, this week, the DC-based cabin crew was exceptional, with multiple sweeps with the cart, prompt, attentive service, pleasant dispositions, and otherwise very professional service; this included expressing thanks for choosing YX (which I know the crews are supposed to include in the arrival announcements, but sometimes do not). When I thanked them for their excellent level of service, they were truly appreciative of the comments.

Like with any business, there are those apathetic employees who have no pride in their jobs, and there are dedicated employees, who truly enjoy what they do and are able to exhibit it in their job performance.

I believe this to be true now, as well as with the old YX crews.

So you're saying that PIT, IND, and STL are small cities as well?

The PIT, IND and STL service is a pathetic attempt to try and make city pairs work that really don't work for FL. They should have either stuck with mainline service or dropped the city pairs completely. One of the best things FL had going was that it didn't have rj service. You knew that you'd get a 717 or 737 on each flight. You'd get XM satellite radio. You'd get internet access. Now what? They diminished the quality of their product just to try and keep a couple city pairs alive that maybe should have been dropped instead.

I really wish they would just stick with the 717's and 737's.

The PIT, IND and STL service is a pathetic attempt to try and make city pairs work that really don't work for FL. They should have either stuck with mainline service or dropped the city pairs completely. One of the best things FL had going was that it didn't have rj service. You knew that you'd get a 717 or 737 on each flight. You'd get XM satellite radio. You'd get internet access. Now what? They diminished the quality of their product just to try and keep a couple city pairs alive that maybe should have been dropped instead.

I really wish they would just stick with the 717's and 737's.

But if you're connecting in MKE to go to the west coast, for instance, at least you're being fed in to an FL 737 outfitted with XM, wi-fi, etc. That's probably better than most connecting flights originating at IND.

That's probably better than most connecting flights originating at IND.

Now wait a minute - what about those flights on ATA? Oh yeah, they no longer exist as the INdy base closed years ago.:eek:

But if you're connecting in MKE to go to the west coast, for instance, at least you're being fed in to an FL 737 outfitted with XM, wi-fi, etc. That's probably better than most connecting flights originating at IND.

We do have Frontier to DEN with DirecTV. I took a flight out west earlier in the year and rather enjoyed it. Though it was strange having an agent working the gate that sounded as if he just left working for Virgin Atlantic. lol. Anyone that has flown F9 out of IND probably knows who I am talking about. Nice guy. Just the accent seems a bit out of place.

BTW at nearly 6'5" I am NOT a fan of the tiny rjs. I wouldn't fly them with NW when they had their focus city here and I was silver elite. Can't stand those jets. I'd pick a different route or another airline if I had to end up on one of those crj 200's or whatever.

BTW at nearly 6'5" I am NOT a fan of the tiny rjs. I wouldn't fly them with NW when they had their focus city here and I was silver elite. Can't stand those jets. I'd pick a different route or another airline if I had to end up on one of those crj 200's or whatever.

I know exactly how you feel. The CRJ200 is the absolute worst aircraft around. More than 30 minutes spent in one of those planes is absolute torture.

SkyWest must be giving AirTran a really good deal in order to get planes in the air.

I know exactly how you feel. The CRJ200 is the absolute worst aircraft around. More than 30 minutes spent in one of those planes is absolute torture.

SkyWest must be giving AirTran a really good deal in order to get planes in the air.

FL 717 coach is not much better.... I will not fly it ever again unless I have a business class seat. I may try to get an exit row seat next time since hazelrah suggested I try it. ;)

"SkyWest must be giving AirTran a really good deal in order to get planes in the air."

The contract is cost/profit sharing agreement not a fee for departure agreement like they had with YX. SkyWest has just as much at stake as FL does.

"SkyWest must be giving AirTran a really good deal in order to get planes in the air."

The contract is cost/profit sharing agreement not a fee for departure agreement like they had with YX. SkyWest has just as much at stake as FL does.

FL has very little at stake. Other than paying for gate and reservation agents, I don't believe FL is paying for any of the aircraft utilization, flight crews, or fuel. It's a great bargain for FL, and SkyWest would rather have this arrangement than to let their planes sit idle. Remember that these are the planes that had been flying for YX but are being phased out in favor of the Republic ERJs.

FL has very little at stake. Other than paying for gate and reservation agents, I don't believe FL is paying for any of the aircraft utilization, flight crews, or fuel. It's a great bargain for FL, and SkyWest would rather have this arrangement than to let their planes sit idle. Remember that these are the planes that had been flying for YX but are being phased out in favor of the Republic ERJs.

This sounds about right. I was under the impression that SkyWest was assuming most, if not all, of the financial risks with these flights.

This sounds about right. I was under the impression that SkyWest was assuming most, if not all, of the financial risks with these flights.

I think that's how it's been billed, although I can't help but have some doubts that it's so simple based on the choice of Akron. I think we've covered the details of that before on this board

But anyway, even if it is indeed all Skywest's nickel at risk, AirTran has more in the game than just their costs (cost to ground service the planes, process the passengers, pay for the flights to be hosted on GDS systems, etc.) The Skywest deal essentially forces low fare passengers onto AirTran flights. Here's what I mean.

The fare in a connecting market like Omaha-Orlando has to be split between the major airline and the code share regional. The formula varies, but it's generally something in the 65% / 35% range.

$108 is the lowest MKE-MCO fare on Friday, March 26th (spring peak)
$136 is the lowest OMA-MKE-MCO fare on the same date / same flights

A split of 65/35 means that AirTran is agreeing to sell MKE-MCO for $88.40 on a Friday in peak spring break season, or 18% less than the lowest local fare.


$127 is the lowest MKE-ATL fare on Wedensday, April 21st
$100 is the lowest OMA-MKE-ATL fare on the same date / same flights

A split of 65/35 means that AirTran is agreeing to sell MKE-ATL for $65, a bit more than half of the local MKE-ATL fare.

Now these sorts of fare issues are not uncommon when comparing connecting fares to local fares. But when all the revenue is on one airline's books...either becuase both flights are on mainline or because the mainline flight is capacity purchase....they have more information and allocation control. Here's what I mean about that...

Let's say that this was all FL flying, and that OMA-MKE has strong local yields, So they instead of 65/35, they allocate this fare 85 / 15...$15 to OMA-MKE which just covers the marginal cost of the extra passenger on the already-profitable OMA-MKE leg. That leaves $85 for MKE-ATL, not $65. And maybe at $85, this is a profitable passenger to carry on MKE-ATL.

But because Skywest is separate and the revenue is split, AirTran is stuck with hauling that passenger from MKE to ATL for $65. No two ways around it.

This is a simplified example, of course, but those are real fares. In some cases the fares on a Skywest-AirTran connection XXX - MKE - YYY are cheaper than MKE-YYY on AirTran alone.

This is a classic problem with the old style joint fare/shared revenue system which AirTran and Skywest are using. Two masters to serve with different agenda when it comes to trying to set and allocate fares.

The best for both Skywest and AirTran is for them to carry a lot of local traffic in both OMA-MKE and MKE-ATL so that the connections are gravy.

The best for both Skywest and AirTran is for them to carry a lot of local traffic in both OMA-MKE and MKE-ATL so that the connections are gravy.

All good points, knope.

As for local traffic, I don't believe AirTran has historically carried a significant amount on MKE-ATL. OMA is still new so it remains to be seen just how much the local market will expand with low fare stimulation or what amount of traffic AirTran can siphon away from Midwest.