American Express Membership Rewards - Claw Back MR if Charges Refunded?

Hi All,

Quick question. If one makes a purchase on an amex and receives the MR points, transfers those MR points to an airline, maybe booking a flight, what happens if the initial charge is refunded?

Thanks!

FB

The refund gets deducted from the MR balance. The MR points are not tracked individually, so the fact that the points initially earned for that particular purpose may be transferred (such as if you transferred all available points), the refund will subtract from any subsequent accumulations in the account or be offset by current charges on the statement where the refund posts. If there's still a negative balance, then that will carry forward until such time as it's offset by new purchases.

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. And they don't charge a fee for having a negative point balance? I'm surprised they don't get people charging enormous purchases, transferring out points, and then refunding the purchase and canceling the card or just not caring about the point balance anymore. Is it just ethics that prevents people from doing that?

I'm sure they'd charge you ~2 cents per point when you close your account.

...don't charge a fee for having a negative point balance?

Membership Rewards includes a feature called "Points Advance" which allows cardholders to borrow a specified number of points for up to one year. If not offset by earned points the balance is invoiced at $25 per 1,000. I assume, but do not know, that American Express could treat any negative balance as an advance.

I hate this stuff. There so many legitimate ways to earn miles why do flyertalkers discuss ways to steal? I would think the OP is educated by using the term "clawback". Technically they sell miles so they have a dollar value. I think Amex could easily win a judgement against someone on this basis. Would Amex do this? I feel dirty already.

This is also one of the reasons that they don't actually award you the points until the end of the following cycle... they're covered for refunds that occur in roughly the 45 day timeframe give-or-take.

And they don't charge a fee for having a negative point balance? I'm surprised they don't get people charging enormous purchases, transferring out points, and then refunding the purchase and canceling the card or just not caring about the point balance anymore. Is it just ethics that prevents people from doing that?


I hate this stuff. There so many legitimate ways to earn miles why do flyertalkers discuss ways to steal? I would think the OP is educated by using the term "clawback". Technically they sell miles so they have a dollar value. I think Amex could easily win a judgement against someone on this basis. Would Amex do this? I feel dirty already.

It sounds like a scheme for ill-gotten gains to me. The OP wants to risk a felony indictment for a few thousand MR points?

This is also one of the reasons that they don't actually award you the points until the end of the following cycle... they're covered for refunds that occur in roughly the 45 day timeframe give-or-take.

I was going to add that to my initial response, but wanted to see where the thread was going first. You're right - for charge cards, the points post at the end of the statement cycle in which the payment in full is made. And for credit cards, at the end of the statement cycle in which at least the minimum due is paid, such that if you don't pay in full, you're guaranteed to be paying interest on the purchase for at least a month even if you later return it.

Membership Rewards includes a feature called "Points Advance" which allows cardholders to borrow a specified number of points for up to one year. If not offset by earned points the balance is invoiced at $25 per 1,000. I assume, but do not know, that American Express could treat any negative balance as an advance.

This is true for MR accts that have a charge card linked to them, but I don't think it's a feature of MR otherwise. In any event, as described above, based on the schedule in which the points post, they a) already have all the money for the purchase, or b) at least one month's interest (probably more in most cases) before they award the MR points.

BTW, I recently signed up for a new Amex card that at a signing bonus earned "upon the first purchase." Later, when reading the fine print, I realized that although the bonus is earned upon the first purchase, it isn't paid until 8-12 weeks later, even though the regular points for purchase are awarded on the regular schedule. At first, I thought this was petty or sloppy at best, and more toward unreasonable, but this thread makes me realize why they do it that way: they want to make sure there's plenty of time for the first annual fee to be billed, paid, and for the 30-day "change your mind" period to expire well before they give out the bonus.

I'm willing to accept that the OP was asking the question purely for correct reasons. The situation could easily happen through normal use (make a large purchase for legitimate reasons, use all your points to book a flight, and then need to return the large purchase, again for legitimate reasons), though not in typical usage. I'd prefer to think the best of people :)

However, I think the possibility of Amex allowing a negative point balance for an indeterminate period of time, or after the card has been closed, to be very slim.