Qantas Frequent Flyer - Melbourne to Hawaii - info request

Hi to all, just after some advice.
I have family who were booked to fly from Melbourne to HNL yesterday (Nov 2 2009).
Flying this route on a Monday I would have thought the obvious flight booking would have been JQ3; MEL-SYD-HNL.

However the travel agent has booked their flight (through Jetstar) as MEL-SYD domestic on a codeshare Qantas flight, then switch planes and terminals in Sydney to join JQ3 to HNL. Why?:confused:

I believe the intentions of the travel agent would have to find flights resulting in minimal stopover time in Syd. Still, I would have thought the convenience of being on JQ3 from MEL without the change of terminals would have outweighed what would have only be a 30 minute reduction in stopover time.


Anyway as it turned out for my travelling family, yesterday's flight(s) turned out to be quite an event from what I've been told:

Departing Melbourne they were bound for Sydney on QF440 for the domestic leg, then connecting with JQ3 to HNL in Sydney.

At the gate in Melbourne checked luggage can be seen being loaded onto flight QF440 (14:30 departure) as passengers start to boarded the aircraft aswell.
Approx half the passengers have boarded when they are then asked by staff to leave the aircraft.
From there they were apparently given the option to join the next scheduled flight to Sydney, QF442 (15:00 departure) while staff look over the aircraft operating QF440.

My family board flight QF442 and arrive in Sydney with just their hand luggage, as their checked baggage was already loaded in the original aircraft (flight QF440) and stayed in Melbourne.

Arriving in Sydney they find out that their bags, and flight QF440, have eventually departed Melbourne 90mins late and will arrive in Sydney at a time after check-in has closed for their international leg on JQ3.

After some frantic discussion with both Jetstar and Qantas staff at Sydney Airport (who were both seemingly unaware of the delayed flights from Melbourne) they are told they can check in and fly out to Hawaii this evening without their luggage, however there was no guarantee their bags would arrive in Hawaii within the next 48 hours.

My family couldn't afford to be away from their luggage for that long, so they took up the airline's overnight accommodation offer, which thankfully included late checkout to correspond with their new flight's late-afternoon departure the next day.
That was the latest update I heard from them after being reunited with their bags which were delivered to the hotel.

Just a few questions I would like to ask:
*Is it not illegal to have checked luggage on a flight without the owner of that luggage being onboard the same flight? I thought this was standard airline policy introduced after Lockerbie?

*Now arriving in 24hours late they have forfeited 1 night's accommodation in Hawaii. Generally speaking, is there a chance their travel insurance could compensate for this lost night of accommodation - approx $100AU ?

*Why wasn't JQ3 held in Sydney until the connecting passengers from Melbourne arrived?
Not sure how many (at least 7 confirmed) passengers missed their JQ3 connection, however I assume the cost of putting these passengers up in a hotel would be less then what Jetstar would have faced in fines for a late departure from Sydney?

*Apparently the check in staff were unaware that there were 2 delayed flights from Melbourne. I doubt this would be the reason though.
What is the procedure when check-in staff make the "final call" for late passengers? Can't they look up their computer to see if these 'late' passengers are booked on a connecting (and possibly delayed) codeshare flight?


Not complaining, just curious really.
Cheers.

Just a few questions I would like to ask:
*Is it not illegal to have checked luggage on a flight without the owner of that luggage being onboard the same flight? I thought this was standard airline policy introduced after Lockerbie?
Not complaining, just curious really.
Cheers.

Generally if you do not fly then your luggage cannot fly. This is to stop people putting luggage on that may do some harm and then not get on the plane.

We flew LAX-DFW-MCI in 2006 and because we left LAX late we missed our original connection and our luggage made it on the next available flight but we did not. When we arrived at MCI our luggage was sitting in the public area waiting for us as we left the plane. So it can happen and I suppose it does occur sometimes when the decision not to make that flight is the airlines rather than the passengers.

Bags fly unattended all the time due to missed connections and delays. According to a response by a BA pilot in another thread, unaccompanied bags will be subject to tighter screening if they are connecting unaccompanied.

The critical factor in deciding whether a bag can go unattended is whether or not it is an involuntary action by the passenger.

So a flight change/cancellation where the passenger is involuntarily rerouted would mean the bag is ok to fly.

A no-show by the passenger, or the passenger falling ill and being removed from the flight (etc) would mean the bag needs to be off-loaded.

Travel insurance may cover the night of the lost accommodation, but there will usually be an excess which will probably exceed $100.

In any event insurance will generally cover a loss over and above what you have been compensated for (that is, for out of pocket expenses). So the airline has provided alternate accommodation and meals etc so the loss would be minimal or nothing.

I see JQ 3 leaves at 1800, and it looks like the QF442 with the bags arrived somewhere like 1730 (given a 90 minute delay). So the major problem should have been the bags transferring (assuming they were through-checked) rather than anything else.

Regards

lme ff

Flying this route on a Monday I would have thought the obvious flight booking would have been JQ3; MEL-SYD-HNL.


Yes that would be the obvious choice but there is a 3 1/2 hour wait in Sydney.

The QF440 flight leaves a 2hour and 5 min wait in Syd, which is pushing it!


Why?:confused:

Shorter travel times usually look better to most people, and it was probably cheaper booking it this way. I have seen many very short connection times in SYD for USA flights. Qantas will usually "recommend" 1 hour 15 mins for a domestic to international connection on Qantas. They quite often have to hold the USA flights for connecting passengers. Again short connection times always look good on paper... I usually allow 3 hours in SYD, I would rather relax than have to worry about missing a flight!

At the gate in Melbourne checked luggage can be seen being loaded onto flight QF440 (14:30 departure) as passengers start to boarded the aircraft aswell.

Was the luggage checked all the way through to Honolulu?

They are not meant to do that unless it's all on the same ticket AND booked as a JQ**** flight number not QF440....?


Arriving in Sydney they find out that their bags, and flight QF440, have eventually departed Melbourne 90mins late and will arrive in Sydney at a time after check-in has closed for their international leg on JQ3.

After some frantic discussion with both Jetstar and Qantas staff at Sydney Airport (who were both seemingly unaware of the delayed flights from Melbourne) they are told they can check in and fly out to Hawaii this evening without their luggage, however there was no guarantee their bags would arrive in Hawaii within the next 48 hours.


Yes I can imagine the discussion, sorry they had to go through that.


My family couldn't afford to be away from their luggage for that long, so they took up the airline's overnight accommodation offer, which thankfully included late checkout to correspond with their new flight's late-afternoon departure the next day.


Wow - Very good of Jetstar (Qantas) to do that! They have lifted their customer service recently! ^


*Is it not illegal to have checked luggage on a flight without the owner of that luggage being onboard the same flight? I thought this was standard airline policy introduced after Lockerbie?
Well yes and no. If someone gets on the plane with luggage and then decides to get off they will pull the luggage as that is deemed as a security risk. But for delayed baggage and the like it happens all the time and travels unaccompanied!


Now arriving in 24hours late they have forfeited 1 night's accommodation in Hawaii. Generally speaking, is there a chance their travel insurance could compensate for this lost night of accommodation - approx $100AU ?

Bit of a tricky one there, but I would be saying no, as they are not out of pocked for anything really as QF/JQ has paid for their Sydney accommodation.


Why wasn't JQ3 held in Sydney until the connecting passengers from Melbourne arrived?
Jetstar really do not hold flights, as they need the plane to get to Honolulu on time so it can then leave Honolulu on time. Their international planes are worked very hard with little downtime. So a 2 hour delay out of Melbourne would follow through subsequent flights.


Not sure how many (at least 7 confirmed) passengers missed their JQ3 connection, however I assume the cost of putting these passengers up in a hotel would be less then what Jetstar would have faced in fines for a late departure from Sydney?
Qantas may have payed for these rooms as the delay was the fault of Qantas, so Jetstar may not have cared. I am sure the bean counters (accountants) have done the maths!


What is the procedure when check-in staff make the "final call" for late passengers? Can't they look up their computer to see if these 'late' passengers are booked on a connecting (and possibly delayed) codeshare flight?

Not sure on this one, been a while since I have asked about QF/JQ systems


Out of all of this I wish there were more non-stop flights out of Melbourne :(

Thankyou both for your replies, the info is much appreciated.

I see JQ 3 leaves at 1800, and it looks like the QF442 with the bags arrived somewhere like 1730 (given a 90 minute delay). So the major problem should have been the bags transferring (assuming they were through-checked) rather than anything else
Correct, this is what occured.

However I had the thought that since my family were already at Sydney's Inernational terminal and about to check-in, could the airline not have transferred their bags from the 17:30 domestic arrival, straight accross the tarmac to the international terminal and loaded them onto JQ3.....by say 17:50?
With everyone now onbord JQ3 by then, the pre-weighed luggage could get loaded into the aircraft, the flight crew informed of the extra weight of this 'new' luggage and they could have left the gate at Sydney by approx 18:15.


Given this didn't occur I would assume there is much more to the checked baggage loading process then what I currently know.
I guess it would also have to do with what was already mentioned above: unaccompanied bags will be subject to tighter screening if they are connecting unaccompanied. slowing down the loading process.


All a learning experience for those involved (including me!)
Thanks again.

The QF440 flight leaves a 2hour and 5 min wait in Syd, which is pushing it!

Shorter travel times usually look better to most people, and it was probably cheaper booking it this way. I have seen many very short connection times in SYD for USA flights. Qantas will usually "recommend" 1 hour 15 mins for a domestic to international connection on Qantas. They quite often have to hold the USA flights for connecting passengers. Again short connection times always look good on paper... I usually allow 3 hours in SYD, I would rather relax than have to worry about missing a flight! I agree, that's why I was very suprised when I was told they were booked to fly to Sydney on a seperate domestic flight rather then fom Melbourne on JQ3.
....thats what they get for not asking for my advice at the time of planning their trip;)




Was the luggage checked all the way through to Honolulu?

They are not meant to do that unless it's all on the same ticket AND booked as a JQ**** flight number not QF440....?
Yes, the luggage was chacked through as it was all booked through Jetstar as a codeshare flight JQ68xx.
Not sure which, (if not both) flight numbers where printed on their luggage tags though.


If someone gets on the plane with luggage and then decides to get off they will pull the luggage as that is deemed as a security risk. But for delayed baggage and the like it happens all the time and travels unaccompanied!
I just found it a little suprising that Qantas made the offer for the delayed passengers (QF440) to board a different flight (QF442) as they were going to have to wait for their luggage in Sydney anyway. Perpahs the offer was more for passengers flying to Sydney with just carry-on luggage.


Thanks AndDee

I've since found out that their hotel room in Hawaii cost $315AU, not $100AU. Could they claim for all, or some, of this on their travel insurance?

cheers

Not much point asking anyone but the travel insurance company - YMMV, widely.

Adam1 - with 30 mins I would have only given the baggage an outside chance of making the domestic to international connection - even if through checked.

The QF440 is showing as a 767 (well, at least for next week), which has containerised luggage - these would have had to have been unloaded, taken to the terminal, emptied, baggage identified and then transferred to the international terminal. JQ3 also uses containers - so not as simple as just taking from the hold of one plane and dropping it at the hold of the other (as happens frequently in places like the US where a little van will tear around with last minute luggage :) )

As shillard says - best to give the insurance company a call. Thinking about this after my earlier advice the hotel night may be treated as a 'cancellation' which may give you some cash back after figuring in the excess.

Regards

lme ff

Always interesting to learn about the day-to-day procedures of a commercial airline.

On the day in question, QF440 was operated by a B734 (VH-TJY).
This was the flight which had their luggage.
They travelled on QF442 which was a B763.

As it turned out there were 11 adults, plus two infants who missed the connecting flight and were put up in a hotel.
Given the food and accommodation vouchers for these passengers, was it still cheaper for the airline to provide the passengers with vouchers instead of delaying JQ3 for an hour in Sydney?

<Given the food and accommodation vouchers for these passengers, was it still cheaper for the airline to provide the passengers with vouchers instead of delaying JQ3 for an hour in Sydney?>

As one example, delaying a fully fueled, boarded, and ready-to-go 744 costs about US $500 per *minute* of delay. Of course a 763 is less expensive but you get the picture. Besides the direct costs of fuel, crew, etc. there are numerous other costs to consider such as the "ripple" effect caused by an out-of-position aircraft in the fleet, labor costs of the ground and terminal crew at both airports, curfew violation fines, etc.

I'm also presuming Qantas and Jetstar, though the same parent corporation are different profit/cost centers. The rooms and vouchers were probably paid by QF, so there was no "expense" for JQ to leave some passengers behind for an ontime departure.