Qantas Frequent Flyer - Cabotage QF 107/108

Simple question:
Fly AU - LAX on QF - possible to then take the 107/8 v.v with break of journey on east coast? Or in the opposite journey - will be on same PNR.
Cheers
David.

Yes of course.

You are allowed a stopover in LAX in either direction (or both), as long as the fare allows it. Only 1 leg has to be on QF trans-pacific (so you could fly SYD-LAX-JFK-HKG-SYD for example, with JFK-HKG on CX, and still be allowed to fly QF LAX-JFK -- far nicer than the AA J service, despite this being the super-good J route for AA).

QF107 and QF108 operate as a domestic leg within the US between LAX and JFK. On a return flight say SYD-JFK generally u r allowed a stopover and to fly the domestic leg on a different day.

QF107 and QF108 operate as a domestic leg within the US between LAX and JFK. On a return flight say SYD-JFK generally u r allowed a stopover and to fly the domestic leg on a different day.

If it adds any credibility to the story, i have done this twice before :-)

QF107 and QF108 operate as a domestic leg within the US between LAX and JFK. On a return flight say SYD-JFK generally u r allowed a stopover and to fly the domestic leg on a different day. To clarify this, it will depend on the fare rules of the ticket you have purchased.

Dave

Wasn't it here discussed not a long time ago that before that some corporate travel agencies in NYC booked JFK-LAX-AKL-LAX-JFK on QF? The passengers would then throw away the LAX-AKL-LAX-JFK segments, but would experience a purely domestic flight on a Boeing 747-400 with PTV (and lie flat beds in Business) and service.

This was apparently done in light of some very good Economy and Business special fares on the route JFK-AKL.

I think some corporate travel departments, who arrange for corporate contracts with airlines, asked American Airlines specifically, when they will finally install Lie Flat seats in Business and fly the Boeing 747-400 on the domestic route as their competitor Qantas does.

Wasn't it here discussed not a long time ago that before that some corporate travel agencies in NYC booked JFK-LAX-AKL-LAX-JFK on QF? The passengers would then throw away the LAX-AKL-LAX-JFK segments, but would experience a purely domestic flight on a Boeing 747-400 with PTV (and lie flat beds in Business) and service.

This was apparently done in light of some very good Economy and Business special fares on the route JFK-AKL.

I think some corporate travel departments, who arrange for corporate contracts with airlines, asked American Airlines specifically, when they will finally install Lie Flat seats in Business and fly the Boeing 747-400 on the domestic route as their competitor Qantas does.Absurd; if an corporate travel dept. did this more than once QF would charge back the full Y or J or F fare for all sectors -- as the special fare rules were violated, causing the repricing. So it is at best an urban legend. Also UA regularly files complaints with the US govt accusing QF of cabotage, so revenue aside QF would have to take action against any travel agent that engaged in this practice.

AA has operated international config 777s and 763s on US domestic routes for years and continues to do so (albeit not on JFK-LAX, but JFK-SFO has had 763 operated flights for months at times). So flat and level beds are not a novelty for AA domestic routes. As for operating 744s, that is presently prohibited by AA's pilot contract. Otherwise AA could codeshare on QF107/108 and sell it domestically :)

mmmm. Intersesting replies.. :rolleyes: Cheers

Don't know about AA selling CodeShare, wouldn't this break the Cabotage rule?
As QF gets the money - a non US carrier.
AA can't sell flights exclusively in Australia operated by QF on codeshare (or can they?)

I was suprised by the travel agent thread. Surely QF would cancel that PNR unless fare conditions allowed for no shows (unlikely, especially on sale).
QF would just cancel and invoice the TAs especially if it breached Cabotage?/??


Sorry AA, but your domestic offering won't beat the QF JFK-LAX product - EVER.:p
Departing LAX T4 vs TBIT / Departing JFK T7 vs T8

I'll stop here before making people angry...:mad:

Thanks. Food for thought.:cool:
David.

:D

...
Don't know about AA selling CodeShare, wouldn't this break the Cabotage rule?...The cabotage rules only applies to travel on domestic itineraries with segment(s) operated by non home carriers.

In general, once a passenger's itinerary includes an international flight, cabotage is no longer an issue.

Absurd; if an corporate travel dept. did this more than once QF would charge back the full Y or J or F fare for all sectors -- as the special fare rules were violated, causing the repricing.

How should that work in reality?
I understand, if someone buys Delta LAX-CVG-BOS but throws away the CVG-BOS segment, the travel agent might receive a debit memo because of repricing (LAX-CVG-BOS is likely cheaper than LAX-CVG). The repricing is based on the actual segments that were really used.

However, with JFK-LAX-AKL-LAX-JFK Qantas cannot simply reprice that JFK-LAX, because Qantas cannot quote a Y- or C-fare for the segment JFK-LAX. If Qantas does so, the travel agent is probably very happy to forward that quote to the DOJ or DOT.
Changing the entire booked route JFK-LAX-AKL-LAX-JFK to Y-Fare is difficult. Do you think the QF terms & conditions allow this? I mean LAX-AKL-LAX-JFK was not even used.

In general, once a passenger's itinerary includes an international flight, cabotage is no longer an issue.

But LAX-qf-JFK-ba-LHR-ba-JFK-qf-LAX (on QF/BA) is not allowed either.

And MEL-ua-SYD-sq-SIN-sq-SYD-ua-MEL (on UA/SQ) is not allowed either.

But LAX-qf-JFK-ba-LHR-ba-JFK-qf-LAX (on QF/BA) is not allowed either.Not allowed by Who?

That does not break Cabotage rules. Qantas choose not to allow the selling of the LAX/JFK legs on such a routing....
And MEL-ua-SYD-sq-SIN-sq-SYD-ua-MEL (on UA/SQ) is not allowed either.I do not know about *A. Do UA choose not to sell the MEL/SYD leg?

DO a search in this forum for threads containing "cabotage". You'll find more than you ever knew ...

AA certainly could sell seats on QF LAX-JFK flight as an AA codeshare if it chose to; there are several ways to do this and avoid cabotage. It is hardly new; Braniff operated BA's Concorde from Dulles to Houston for several years, for example (in their case as a dry lease). Lots of reasons why AA doesn't do this :)

But LAX-qf-JFK-ba-LHR-ba-JFK-qf-LAX (on QF/BA) is not allowed either.

Not allowed by Who?

This scenario would require QF (jointly with BA) to have traffic rights between US and UK.

Assuming QF only has traffic rights between AU and US, they must maintain an appropriate traffic restriction on the LAX-JFK flight:

[KVS Availability Tool 5.1.2/Diamond - Amadeus Operational Info: QF 107/02 Nov 2009] (http://www.KVSTool.com/?R)
QANTAS AIRWAYS - QF 107

[Planned Flight Info]
SYD-LAX 11:50/Mon - 06:15/Mon 13:25
LAX-JFK 08:50/Mon - 16:50/Mon 05:00

[Flight Notes]
LAX-JFK Q/ INTL ONLINE CONNECTING OR STOPOVR TRAFFIC ONL
TR APPLIES ON BRD POINT
MEMBER OF ONEWORLD
SYD-LAX DEPARTS TERMINAL 1
LAX-JFK DEPARTS TERMINAL B
SYD-LAX ARRIVES TERMINAL B
LAX-JFK ARRIVES TERMINAL 7
1/ MOVIE
15/ IN-SEAT VIDEO PLAYER/LIBRARY
4/ AUDIO PROGRAMMING
7/ DUTY FREE SALES
9/ NON-SMOKING
ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE
SYD-LAX MANDATORY NAME GENDER DOB REQMTS REFR US SECURE
SYD-JFK MANDATORY NAME GENDER DOB REQMTS REFR US SECURE
LAX-JFK REFER GGAIRQF TRAFFIC MS043 FOR RESTRICTION
SYD-LAX FLIGHT PLUS MANDATORY US VISA REQMTS REFR ESTA
SYD-JFK FLIGHT PLUS MANDATORY US VISA REQMTS REFR ESTA
SYD-LAX VISIT QANTAS.COM FOR ELIGIBILITY AND INSTRUCTION
SYD-JFK VISIT QANTAS.COM FOR ELIGIBILITY AND INSTRUCTION
SYD-LAX ADV PAX WWW.SMARTRAVELLER.GOV.AU AND REF GG APIS
SYD-JFK ADV PAX WWW.SMARTRAVELLER.GOV.AU AND REF GG APIS

[Operational Info]
SYD 11:57 LEFT THE GATE
SYD 12:09 TOOK OFF
LAX 06:15 ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL
LAX 06:09 AIRCRAFT LANDED
LAX 06:19 ARRIVED
LAX 08:58 LEFT THE GATE
LAX 09:10 TOOK OFF
JFK 16:40 ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL
JFK 16:34 AIRCRAFT LANDED
JFK 16:46 ARRIVED

Traffic Restrictions On Flights Within North America 06 January 2006


A reminder that there are traffic restrictions on Qantas flights, QF107 and QF108, which operate within North America. These flights can only be used if a Qantas flight number is used on the inbound or outbound to/ from the North American gateway (eg. LAX)

This scenario would require QF (jointly with BA) to have traffic rights between US and UK.

Assuming QF only has traffic rights between AU and US, they must maintain an appropriate traffic restriction on the LAX-JFK flight QF has traffic rights between the US and the UK, they just aren't utilised at present.

Dave

Traffic Restrictions On Flights Within North America 06 January 2006


A reminder that there are traffic restrictions on Qantas flights, QF107 and QF108, which operate within North America. These flights can only be used if a Qantas flight number is used on the inbound or outbound to/ from the North American gateway (eg. LAX) Those traffic restrictions are imposed by QF, not by the United States. Qantas does this to make it easier to show adherence to the rules whenever UA complains, but iQF can actually fly anyone between LAX and JFK (and vv) as long as it is part of an international itinerary.

NM has had personal experience of this, if this was not the case he would not have been able to board his flight at LAX, but it was only by pressing the issue that he was allowed to board.

Dave

so SYD-SFO on QF; SFO-LAX on surface; LAX-JFK QF would be allowed?

so SYD-SFO on QF; SFO-LAX on surface; LAX-JFK QF would be allowed? Absolutely (oops, wrong airline!)

Dave

Do UA choose not to sell the MEL/SYD leg?

They do not have the traffic rights (nor did TG with their various SYD-MEL and SYD-BNE).

Those traffic restrictions are imposed by QF, not by the United States. Qantas does this to make it easier to show adherence to the rules whenever UA complains, but iQF can actually fly anyone between LAX and JFK (and vv) as long as it is part of an international itinerary.

NM has had personal experience of this, if this was not the case he would not have been able to board his flight at LAX, but it was only by pressing the issue that he was allowed to board.

Dave

I've had a colleague in the industry recently receive an ADM for flying into LAX on CX on a oneworld and then used QF107 to JFK.

CX applied for traffic rights JFK-LHR several years ago and still hasn't received it. The punch line: nominally a mere formality as the current air treaties with US and EU allow for this traffic right. So much for treaties. QF would probably face equal difficulty activating its traffic rights; also JFK-LHR is not a lucrative route this year :) And look what happened with the LAX-ORD service (cancelled less than a week before the first flight, in an apparent deal with UA).

QF did fly 707s trans-Atlantic for a short period (months?).

QF did fly 707s trans-Atlantic for a short period (months?).

Years (I think) not months. Not only JFK-LHR but also MEX-Nassau-Bermuda-LHR

What are the odds of QF extending SYD-JNB or SYD-EZE for a EZE-JNB leg? Would create a trans atlantic to Africa for OneWorld...

Years (I think) not months. Not only JFK-LHR but also MEX-Nassau-Bermuda-LHR

Absolutely it was marketed as the Fiesta route to London and around until circa 1976 IIRC. Routings were extraordinary SYDNANPPTACAMEXNASLHR. My mother had a friend who was a hostie and they loved that route. Only two flights a week so half a week of holiday and party in some of the most glamorous resorts in the world.

As a young boy we were posted to Mexico City and I would fly the V-Jet to school in England much to the envy of chums who were relegated to boring old BOAC or KLM. I seem to recall we also flew it home from Acapulco after one weekend, not sure how that happened Dad must have known the Qantas guy or something as I am pretty sure that hop wasn't a normal option though they definitely had full rights for MEXLHR.

I've had a colleague in the industry recently receive an ADM for flying into LAX on CX on a oneworld and then used QF107 to JFK.

What is an ADM?
Moreover, QF let him board LAX-JFK, so basically QF was OK with that.

What is an ADM?Agency Debit Memo, IIRC.

Or, "now pay up the extra money".

Interesting to note that UA is restricted to same day online connections for its SYD-MEL tag. I do not beleive there is even a way to check in at SYD for the morning SYD-MEL flight as the there is no staff in departures until later for the afternoon flights to the USA.

Braniff operated BA's Concorde from Dulles to Houston for several years, for example (in their case as a dry lease).

That's not technically correct. Braniff used to operate the Dulles to Houston flights with their own Concordes.

And before you cry that Braniff didn't have their own Concordes, they, er, did. They used to buy one from BA every day (placing it on the US register IIRC) and after the trip to Houston and back sold it back to BA.

That's not technically correct. Braniff used to operate the Dulles to Houston flights with their own Concordes....Yes, I know -- hence why I said it was a dry lease (and not the more common and logical wet lease). Technically 2 purchase agreements were executed simultaneously (BA sale and re-purchase -- BA didn't want to chance losing a Concorde!). Pilots and crew were Braniff employees. At the time codeshares did not exist and were not allowed by regulation, so this was an innovative solution to the problem. Today Braniff would do a codeshare on the Concorde, but sadly both the plane and the airline are no longer actively flying.

My point is that AA could codeshare on lots of QF-operated 744 flights, on short legs while QF has up to 6 744s sitting on the ground at LAX for 12+ hours -- but this glorious alliance of Oneworld hasn't been able to pull it off. I guess the yield isn't enough to offset the duty cycle cost, along with the AA pilots union being quite opposed to the idea :) -- probably that is the dominant factor. Even the QF 744 LAX-ORD flight was cancelled a few days before its first flight (albeit AA does operate at least 1 international config 763 ORD-LAX daily).

Interesting to note that UA is restricted to same day online connections for its SYD-MEL tag. I do not beleive there is even a way to check in at SYD for the morning SYD-MEL flight as the there is no staff in departures until later for the afternoon flights to the USA.

QF restricts itself, as per KVS' post above.

UA doesn't. You can book a multiday SYD stopover on UA - try it! (Expedia multicity LAX-SYD, SYD-MEL, MEL-LAX). There is definitely a way to check in for UA's SYD-MEL; I've done it.

Interesting to note that UA is restricted to same day online connections for its SYD-MEL tag. I do not beleive there is even a way to check in at SYD for the morning SYD-MEL flight as the there is no staff in departures until later for the afternoon flights to the USA.

not true. you can fly SFO-SYD on UA...spend a night in SYD. then fly SYD-MEL on UA.

i did it in reverse. i spent four days in MEL, then flew UA MEL-SYD, spent four days in SYD, then returned to the US.

another cabotage rule is, you cannot fly US-INTL-US. for example, it is illegal to fly JFK-YYZ-ORD.

another cabotage rule is, you cannot fly US-INTL-US. for example, it is illegal to fly JFK-YYZ-ORD.

It might be illegal to route a single JFK-ORD fare through YYZ. But you can easily combine two fares JFK-YYZ and YYZ-ORD onto one eticket. Again, try it via Expedia; AA is the only carrier offering nonstop service to both ends.


FROM-NYC TO-YTO CXR-AA FARE BASIS-NAP14CNR
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMPONENTS.



FROM-YTO TO-CHI CXR-AA FARE BASIS-Q14APQNR
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMPONENTS.

It might be illegal to route a single JFK-ORD fare through YYZ. But you can easily combine two fares JFK-YYZ and YYZ-ORD onto one eticket. Again, try it via Expedia; AA is the only carrier offering nonstop service to both ends.


FROM-NYC TO-YTO CXR-AA FARE BASIS-NAP14CNR
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMPONENTS.



FROM-YTO TO-CHI CXR-AA FARE BASIS-Q14APQNR
END-ON-END
END-ON-END COMBINATIONS PERMITTED. VALIDATE ALL FARE
COMPONENTS.


while this is true, it is still illegal. immigration officers have refused people boarding because of this.

you run the risk of being caught. i don't think it's worth it.

immigration officers have refused people boarding because of this.


Have you a link or reference for your claim?

while this is true, it is still illegal. immigration officers have refused people boarding because of this.

Have you a link or reference for your claim?

My thought exactly, like Canadian C&I officers have even heard of cabotage. And if you have NEXUS, you don't even speak to an officer... since there is no "Are you cabotaging?" question on the form.

AA certainly could sell seats on QF LAX-JFK flight as an AA codeshare if it chose to; there are several ways to do this and avoid cabotage. It is hardly new; Braniff operated BA's Concorde from Dulles to Houston for several years, for example (in their case as a dry lease). Lots of reasons why AA doesn't do this :)

Not the least of which is a lot of full fare paying F pax would choose the QF flight over AA metal/service.

not true. you can fly SFO-SYD on UA...spend a night in SYD. then fly SYD-MEL on UA.

i did it in reverse. i spent four days in MEL, then flew UA MEL-SYD, spent four days in SYD, then returned to the US.

When was that? Every time this question is asked on the UA forums the answer is that it hasn't been possible for several years, and both UA's online booking engine as well as 3rd party engines won't allow it.

Doing it in reverse is slightly different to a stopover in MEL, if only because there will obviously be check-in staff available in MEL where there might not otherwise be in SYD for a SYD-MEL departure - although even then I don't think it's still an option.

When was that? Every time this question is asked on the UA forums the answer is that it hasn't been possible for several years, and both UA's online booking engine as well as 3rd party engines won't allow it.

My SFO-SYD, 2 week stopover, SYD-MEL, and straight MEL-SYD-SFO return was in Nov 2006, so indeed this isn't particularly recent. It was one e-ticket, purchased on dabomb. I'll repeat that Expedia offers this itinerary today if desired.

MSY-MSP (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/5422901-post13.html) also did it years ago too.